The Mouth of Sauron

[Thingol]

So what's the deal with this guy? Why is he the only one of Sauron's servants allowed to speak Sauron's name? If he's so old he can't remember his name why isn't he dead then? Do you think he is in some way connected to the dead men of Dunharrow? Maybe he was the chief of the men who rebelled against Islidur. Anyone have any more information or ideas?

[ April 26, 2002: Message edited by: Thingol ]

[Nufaciel]

You know, that's a good question. I really don't know.

Not to go off topic, but have you seen the pic of the movie version of him?

[dragongirlG]

I think he was one degree lower than the Nazgul in the Mordor hierarchy. He was a little less evil than the Nazgul, so he was Sauron's strongest point besides the riders.

[Tarlondeion Of Gondolin]

I think he was saurons emmisary, a bit like Colin Powell is with Bush, he was probably Saurons adviser too. I think the Mouth of Sauron was not as respected or powerful as the Nazgul but he might have been the kinda comander of Barad Dur who controlled it while Sauron was busy, or he was from the southern industrial and agricultural area and came up with an army from there to help. Maybe he was a Numenorean or a King of the Eastern men who had come to Saurons service but then never went home. I dont really know these are just guesses. Intresting topic though.

[piosenniel]

I think he was saurons emmisary, a bit like Colin Powell is with Bush . . .

that is a great comparison!!!!!

ROTFL [img]smilies/biggrin.gif[/img]

He was a black numenorean

[Lindolirian]

I agree i remember it saying that he was a Black Numenorean which meant that he was once just like three of the Nazgul who were Black Numenoreans as well. For whatever reason, Sauron didn't feel like making a tenth ring so while the Ringwraiths "died" and grew more invisible and more enslaved to Sauron, he studied sorcerous arts and grew in the favor of Sauron as it says in the books. Now to be old enough to not even remember his name means that he was eitherto pre-occupied with Sauron's buisiness or he's an idiot. I mean Gandalf was WAY older than this dude and he still remembered his name was Olorin in the days of his youth. So the Mouth of Sauron used his sorcerous ways to live really long and he forgot his name.......

[Orald]

Perhaps he was given a ring to like the Nazgul. Maybe one of the dwarven rings that Sauron recovered was given to him.

On the ringwraiths, not all of them were originally evil. May I inquire where it states that the three Numenoreans were actually Black Numenoreans? They could have just been ambitious men deceived by a cunning foe.

[Nar]

The 'black Numenoreans' were like a political group in Numenor devoted to evil, ambitious ways and tending to ally themselves with Sauron. They were not a race. They, (or Tolkien as the author) co-opted the color 'black' to refer to the goals of their sect, evil and domination of others, much as 'dark lord' or 'dark side' is used in LotR or Star Wars to indicate evil. The 'dark-light' analogy is very powerful for humans, because we are creatures of day and night, and from the dawn of our time have developed deeply rooted associations with these terms. Tolkien was using it in a mythic fairy-tale way, as many cultures do. However, as I know from my research into science education, analogies are dangerous to use: they can easily lead us astray just because they are so compelling. This analogy is particularly dangerous, as it can tap racism and lead to great evil. Always stay aware of the boundaries of the analogy, where all comparisons fail!

>>Argh! Now I'm feeling Poster's Remorse, have to go back and edit this message-- It's not that I in any way think any of you have strayed into these bad, dangerous areas-- please don't think I'm criticizing! It's just that I was reading over the 'Is Tolkien racististic?' thread before, and had an alarmed reaction to the words 'black' in this context. So I felt an ethical obligation to share my alarm, and clarify 'black Numenorean' --sorry if it's too heavy for the topic.

[ April 28, 2002: Message edited by: Nar ]

[Orald]

i think you misunderstood my post, Nar. I did not ask what the Black Numenoreans were. I asked for a direct quote that says the three Numenoreans that became Nazgul were actually Black Numenoreans.

[Carannillion]

Where does it say that the "Black Numenoreans" was a political group within Numenor? I was under the impression that the Black Numenoreeans were sort of like traitors: They sacked the coast of Sauron's early kingdom, settled there, but then later on their descendants joined Sauron in his next rise to power... Anyone?

[Kalimac]

I don't think the Mouth of Sauron was necessarily that old, even though he had forgotten his name; I think all it says in ROTK is something like "of his name there is no record, for he himself had forgotten it." This didn't suggest age so much to me as brainwashing; he had let his whole soul be co-opted by Sauron in exchange for favors, so he truly was by this point a sort of extension of Sauron and not a real individual anymore. Hence the name "Mouth of Sauron." If his personality had been "erased" or he was brainwashed by Sauron (albeit voluntarily) it doesn't seem like forgetting his name, or even making himself forget it, would be too unlikely an occurrence.

As for why he's allowed to speak Sauron's name (after Aragorn says that Sauron "does not permit it to be spelt or spoken") I'd guess that originally this was just an inconsistency on Tolkien's part. He went through a lot of drafts on LOTR and since it's impossible to remember every throwaway line you write he probably just forgot what he had written earlier. But if we're trying to make it consistent, probably you could say that the Mouth of Sauron is unique among the servants of Sauron in not really being his own creature. Even the lowliest Orcs have their own names, and their own personalities, such as they are. But the Mouth of Sauron has ceded EVERYTHING to him; he has no name, no soul, no personality or will except that of his master, and essentially all he does is have Sauron's wishes and words channeled through him. So in a sense you could say that when the Mouth of Sauron speaks it's really Sauron speaking through him, and of course Sauron could refer to himself by name, even if he doesn't allow others to. (If you really want to nitpick, you could say the movie made a mistake on this point; in the scene where Saruman is shown speaking to the Palantir and says "What is your desire, Sauron Lord of the Earth?" Unless of course Sauron is permitting Saruman that liberty to gull him into thinking that he's looked on as an ally, and not a servant).

As for the "Black Numenorean" aspect of it. I never thought this meant he was particularly dark-skinned, more that it was one of those delineations like "Black Russian" (as opposed to "White Russian") where it has as much to do with where in Numenor he lived or what tribe/political affiliation he was brought up with as with the way he looked.

[Nar]

Durelan, thanks for the clarification. My answer was unresponsive to your question, sorry about that. I was just obsessing. I wasn't really intending my post to be an answer to yours, as I don't know the origins of the Nazgul except for the Witch-King of Angmar. I've been looking for a quote on the subject for you by way of apology, but I haven't found it yet.

Birdland-- thanks for explaining the black Numenoreans better than I did. Maybe sect would be the best term, including their practices of black magic and their political ideas about allying with Sauron.
That was a great explanation about the Mouth of Sauron-- I've always thought the same, that forgetting his name was an indication of how completely he'd drowned himself in Sauron's will. The idea of Sauron speaking his own name through the 'Mouth' is very clever. Believing that he was just an extension of Sauron's will could be why the Mouth of Sauron dared to use the name.

[Balin999]

Phew! Good thing that I searched for this topic, for otherwise I would have asked the same question myself, meaning the "why does Sauron's Mouth speak aloud Sauron's name"-thing.
An explanation why he has forgotten his name may be, as Kalimac has said, that Sauron was speaking through him, and we can be pretty sure that if once Sauron had such a humble servant who would give up his personality for him, he would no longer care what his name was.

But I think, that he was so "old" because his body was actually dead, or would be, if Sauron had not taken control of his soul. Only a guess, but maybe right.

Then someone posted this:

Perhaps he was given a ring to like the Nazgul. Maybe one of the dwarven rings that Sauron recovered was given to him.

Now that is a very difficult question to answer. If he had gotten a ring, and he was human, he would have lost his body, sould and everything just like the Nazgul and would have become one of them.
But in the "Shadow of the Past" we learn that the dwarfes were a race that was not easy to subdue. of course, Sauron's plan to subdue them failed, but he must have known that they were such strong people, that's why the rings of the dwarfes must have had a greater power than the rings he gave to the Nine.
So, if the weak Black Numenorean got a dwarfen ring, he'd be a soulless Zombie far quicker than the Nine, who only got rings crafted for humans, thus being "weaker".
Thus, if he got the ring at the same time as the Nine, he would be a Nazgul quicker, thus being able to be their chief. (?)
Of course, this could be the biggest cr*p you've ever heard, but that happens when I got enough time for thinking.

Oh, and I don't really understand why he would even get a ring, if he was so humble and wanted to work for Sauron himself. As far as I know, the Nine were just greedy and wanted more power, but I don't know if they really WANTED to work for Sauron or fight for him. SO, if the Mouth.o.S. wanted it anyway, there was no need to subdue him first with a ring.

[Voralphion]

who only got rings crafted for humans, thus being "weaker".

I don't think it says anywhere that the nine were crafted for humans. They were made by the elves, and when Sauron took them he gave them to men, they weren't made for men.
Also, does it say anywhere that the seven and the nine were different rings, or were they the same but were given to different races by Sauron.

[Balin999]

Hm that is rather embarassing for I have thought that Sauron himself made the rings of the Nine. How silly!
But, as I have researched in the Silmarillion, Sauron was the one who helped them creating the rings, meaning he supported them with knowledge, while secretly crafting his own ring.

Ah, here it says (please mind that I only have the German version of the Silmarillion, so I may not cite 100% correctly):

"But Sauron gathered the remaining Rings of Power, and he gave them to the other races of middle-earth, hoping to rule all who were longing for power [...] in the end.
Seven he gave to the dwarfes, [...] but nine he gave to men, [...]
And all of the rings he ruled he could corrupt easily, because he had helped with their creation."

So, well, it is definitely not true that he had created the rings, but he had spoiled them before he gave them to men and dwarfes, so my theory about the Mouth of Sauron can still partly be true.

[Feanor of the Peredhil]

"I don't think it says anywhere
that the nine were crafted for
humans"

I could be wrong... but does "Nine for mortal men doomed to die..." count as saying that they were for men? Hm... actually that doesn't mean anything, because that could be Sauron's purpose for them. It doesn't necessarily mean that that's what they were originally for. Hm... I think I might be way off base because I am embarrassingly un-Tolkien-educated, not having read the Silm or the Letters (and having pretty much no clue what they are about), so I'm probably wrong. Unless I'm right, don't take me too seriously on this.

I agree, everything I've read implies that the elves made all the rings... except of course the one ring

[Westerly Wizard]

"And they took thought, and made Rings of Power.But Sauron guided their labours, and he was aware of all they did, for his desire was to set a bond upon the Elves and to bring them under his vigilance" (The Silmarillion "Of The Rings of Power and the Third Age" my emphasis).

Indeed, it is, I think, most accurate to say that Sauron did not originally intend for the Nine to be given to Men, but to Elves, for they were the original aim of his corruptive desires (and after them, Men would follow easily).

[Afrodal Fenyar]

"Nine for mortal men doomed to die" means that Sauron gave them to men, not that the elves crafted them for men.

[the guy who be short]

Thats interesting. Im sorry for going off topic here, but it saves creating a new thread [img]smilies/tongue.gif[/img]
How does the line "nine for mortal men doomed to die" work? because when they had the rings, they lived (well half lived) forever. Or did it mean men are doomed to die unless they have rings? Any ideas?

[Tinuviel the Nightingale]

Sauron crafted those particular rings himself, I think, not elves. It said somewhere that the Elven Rings where the only ones untouched by his hand.

[Mahal]

Yep Sauron had a hand in making all the rings except the 3 elven rings... but the elves I think made all the rings except the one ring.(dunno for sure though)

[ May 30, 2003: Message edited by: Mahal ]

[Finwe]

I was reading these posts, and that comparison to Colin Powell just made me think of a very bad joke. If Colin Powell's Bush's Mouth of Sauron, then he's definitely a BLACK Numenorean. Get it?

*runs off to avoid being chased by a mob*

[Olorin_TLA]

When the Elves were making Rings, Sauron helped make each of the Rings of Power (except for the One which he alone made in secret, and the Three which Celebrimbor forged in secret).

I like your idea about him falling into evil so gleefully that he loses his personaltiy and becomes "dominated" by Sauron's - the perfect Mouth to speak your thoughts, as his personallity's been "replaced" so much his thoguhts were probably matched to Saurons! I read somewhere in Tolkien's works that he wasn't that old anyway.
Ah, that's it - he came into the service of Saruon when the Dark Tower was rebuilt (The Black Gate Is Open), and then forgot his name later. The Dark Tower wasn'ta round that long before the War of the Ring, so he's not too old. [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img]

I always imagined him as black, but then again in black armour as oppsoed to skin - maybe with a mask like his horse. Urrghhh*shudders*.

As yes, the Nazgul would have died of age if nothing lese had they not had the Rings. But then again - can you really call their existence true life anymore - no independant will, no visible form, no sight, exisiting ion the spirit-realm...

[NAri Brassbow]

the mouth was sauron's monkey
monkey see monkey do monkey get banana or mithril coat whatever you prefer either works

[Balin999]

How does the line "nine for mortal men doomed to die" work? because when they had the rings, they lived (well half lived) forever. Or did it mean men are doomed to die unless they have rings?

The Line "nine for mortal men..." is out of the speech of Sauron which he made when he had forged the ring, and that was when Celebrimbor perceived him and his plans.

I guess that, for Sauron, death really was something negative, while the elves called death "the gift of Eru to men", so for them death was something positive.
And no, the Nine did not "live" any more. They were on the other side, only spirits, that's why you could only see them while wearing the ring. And I think they didn't live forever with their rings, their bodies just rotted away and their souls were left under the control of Sauron. Not really what we call life...
So that's the big difference to the Mouth, who obviously still lived, because he still had his body and was not THAT old. But he was a dumba** anyway, in my opinion. I still think that Sauron spoke through him, and when he fell into nothingness, there was not much left of his Mouth, being separated from the will that controlled him.

Maybe he ended up in a Gondorian soul asylum?

[Westerly Wizard]

I am under the impression that the lines of the Ring Verse, except the line on the Ring itself, were the creations of the elves after the fact, not actually said by Sauron.

And the Nazgul's bodies didn't rot away: they faded into the wraith world, still being existent as was Frodo's when he wore the Ring.

[Kuruharan]

How does the line "nine for mortal men doomed to die" work? because when they had the rings, they lived (well half lived) forever. Or did it mean men are doomed to die unless they have rings? Any ideas?

That refers to the ultimate destiny of humanity to die, the reference is to all humankind.

I am under the impression that the lines of the Ring Verse, except the line on the Ring itself, were the creations of the elves after the fact, not actually said by Sauron.

That could be. The reference that Gandalf makes to Sauron's actual words is limited to the "One Ring to blah, blah..." quotation.

[akhtene]

I still think that Sauron spoke through him, and when he fell into nothingness, there was not much left of his Mouth, being separated from the will that controlled him.
Maybe he ended up in a Gondorian soul asylum?

Just wonder, where do modern PR agents and spokespersons end up, when their 'masters' fall / are pushed into nothingness? [img]smilies/biggrin.gif[/img]

[Dwalin]

This is just a theory of mine, but oh well. Feel free to correct me if I screw up anywhere.

Throughout LOTR, Tolkien applies the characteristic of unity to the dark forces and the characteristic of diversity to the people of the west. Examples of unity characterization are the consistent themes involving the color black, a color which implies evil and "absorbs" all colors, the fact that supreme power resides within the "one" ring, and the uniting of all people under Sauron's banner. On the other hand, the people of the west are given numerous different cultures, customs, and modes of dress; each race is given numerous rings as opposed to one ring to rule all, and the various nations are seperate and autonomous (unlike Easterlings and such who display little or none of their culture except maybe a few rampaging oversized elephants).

Now, what this all has to do with the Mouth of Sauron is his apparent lack of a name. The Mouth of Sauron serves as Sauron's physical representation to the rest of the world. Subsequently, the Mouth of Sauron must display that oneness of Sauron, that state of existence where Sauron has "sucked" up all identities and absorbed them into himself. So, for him to have a name is completely out of the question.

Anyway, like I said, it's just a theory. I could be wrong, y'know! [img]smilies/biggrin.gif[/img]

[Balin999]

I am under the impression that the lines of the Ring Verse, except the line on the Ring itself, were the creations of the elves after the fact, not actually said by Sauron.

I did a bit of research on this subject. Here are two quotes I found:

One Ring,... "It is only two lines of a verse long known in Elven-lore" (Gandalf, The Shadow of the Past)

Why should the Elves cite Sauron? Did they know that Sauron said that, and made the whole verse out of it?

For in the day that Sauron first put on the One, Celebrimbor, maker of the Three (!), was aware of him, and from afar he heard him speak these words, and so his evil purposes were revealed. (Gandalf, Council of Elrond)

Hm, it doesn't say at all if Sauron spoke the whole stuff or just the two lines.

And the Nazgul's bodies didn't rot away: they faded into the wraith world, still being existent as was Frodo's when he wore the Ring.

Well, ok, my fault, but at least they were not visible for mortals any more.

Tolkien applies the characteristic of unity to the dark forces and the characteristic of diversity to the people of the west.

Think of the orcs. There was not only one race, there were many of them. Uruks, the small ones of Moria, and the long armed Mordor-Orcs.
I think they were only so similar because the good ones simply didn't know much of them and so couldn't distinguish between them.
A quote comes to my mind. "To sheep other sheep may appear different."
And they had different banners and all that, so I guess there were some differences among the races under Saurons control.
But you are right with your thoughts regarding the Mouth. Of course it is out of the question for him to have a name, BUT: he once had one, he had only forgotten it.
Nevertheless I think your theory could be right.

[Dwalin]

Good point on the orc diversity. Now that I think of it, they had different languages too.

BTW, although the Mouth of Sauron DID have a name at one point, his service to Sauron caused him to lose his name and, therefore, his identity. Sauron assimilates all things into himself. So...the Mouth of Sauron's ancient, forgotten name has been replaced with a from of Sauron's own name. Perhaps this gives him his ability to utter Sauron's name. Then again, maybe not.

[ June 11, 2003: Message edited by: Dwalin ]

[ June 11, 2003: Message edited by: Dwalin ]

[Balin999]

Hm the reason why the Mouth is permitted to speak his master's name could be that Sauron is speaking to everyone through him. And Sauron himself could call himself Sauron, of course.
Since he can't take a body, this could be a reason that he cannot communicate to "normal" persons who cannot look at the... let's call it Darkside.
Communicating with the Nazgul is no problem for him, since they are on the darkside and are fully under his control.
But we actually never read a part where he actually talks to somebody. I mean, he communicates to Pippin, but he does that over the Palantir, and even there Pippin says "He just looked, and I understood".
I may be wrong, but I can't remember any scene where Sauron talks aloud.
Hm but the other problem is how he had control over his troops, then. A possible solution: People who had business with Sauron personally, had to talk to the Mouth of Sauron. And the great armies of Sauron were commanded by the Lord of the Nazgul.
Hm, this doesn't make any scence, since the Lord of the Nazgul had a voice, and he was on the "Darkside" too.
Well, maybe you'll find a solution to this. WHat do you think of my theory?

[Kuruharan]

Hm the reason why the Mouth is permitted to speak his master's name could be that Sauron is speaking to everyone through him. And Sauron himself could call himself Sauron, of course.

Why would he want to do that? The name means "the abominable one or the abhorred one."

Hardly flattering terms to refer to oneself.

Since he can't take a body

Sauron has a body. Or at least he has a Black Hand with one finger missing, and he has the ability to physically travel about. That is implied by the orders given to the orcs of Cirith Ungol that prisoners were to be kept until "He sends or He comes Himself."

[Balin999]

Why would he want to do that? The name means "the abominable one or the abhorred one."

Hm since his some of his leisure activities were tormenting prisoners, sending slaves to Shelob, or just take over a nice little country if his troops were bored, I guess even Sauron was able to accept his name. And well, he was not someone who you want to have as a neighbour, and he was a downright evil man/spirit, so I guess he was quite content with "the abominable".


As for the body, I'm really sorry but I think I mixed up the book with the movie. I guess I'll have to re-read the books to refresh my memory.

[QuickSlash]

Think of the orcs. There was not only one race, there were many of them. Uruks, the small ones of Moria, and the long armed Mordor-Orcs.

I don't think (s)he meant physically. Didn't they all have very similar cultures? Are any of those groups of orcs as different as elves and dwarves?

I think they were only so similar because the good ones simply didn't know much of them and so couldn't distinguish between them.

I agree with that, though I believe there's more to it. Yes, there was diversity between the 'dark' races, but for the most part, they were all basically the same, all had the same goals. I don't think you can trully say that about the 'good' races.

[Balin999]

I don't think (s)he meant physically. Didn't they all have very similar cultures? Are any of those groups of orcs as different as elves and dwarves?

Hm I think that the Uruks were very different from the small Moria ones. The Uruks didn't even have the ability to develop an own culture because they were'nt born in the common way. They only knew Saruman as their ruler and in a way "god" if I may call it that way.

We don't know, but I CAN imagine that the orcs in Moria, for example, had the possibility to develop an own culture, such as worshipping Sauron, or, if that is possible, both worshipping and fearing the Balrog (since it was the only really strong ruler in the near surroundings).

[Edit: I forgot: I'm not sure about that, but I think that the different orc races also had different weapons and armour, and in my opinion this is a sure sign that they had different views of the world, thus having different cultures. (But well, one could say that the orcs of Mordor couldn't choose what to wear, because the slaves made their weapons or their blacksmiths, whatever. I mean; sauron or some other commander said which weapons were needed, the salves/blacksmiths crafted them)]

And, of course, they were looking quite different (though they were all ugly sons-of-a-b****)

I agree with that, though I believe there's more to it. Yes, there was diversity between the 'dark' races, but for the most part, they were all basically the same, all had the same goals. I don't think you can trully say that about the 'good' races.

I think that more or less all of the races in middle-earth had the same goals: Food, Drink, a warm home (don't laugh) and some leisure time. The difference was how they tried to acchieve it. The bad ones thought that it was funny to rob and murder the innocent.
And in the end, the good ones all had the same goal, well they had no other choice than to get rid of Sauron.

[ June 14, 2003: Message edited by: Balin999 ]

[Balin999]

Since this is getting off topic, I have started another one called The different cultures of the orcs. Feel free to post there, and let's stick to the Mout o.S. here.
[img]smilies/smile.gif[/img]

[Gilthalion]

One does get the idea that the Mouth of Sauron is of great age, prolonged by sorcerous Black Numenorean arts. As for remembering his name, just look at Gollum, for the Ring had driven him mad and had (nearly) cost him his identity as well. One such as the Mouth, who willingly submitted to all that Sauron would teach him, might after an age or more, forget much, including his name.

Was the Mouth a Ringwearer? Perhaps it was not a Ring of Power, forged by the Elves. Did not Saruman also sport a ring on his finger? Might not another ring, the merest trinket, be made for a servant like the Mouth? Such a ring would not give power, but only physical life, at the cost of one's soul and the damnation of one's spirit.

As for the Mouth being allowed to use the name of Sauron, perhaps "Sauron" was not the name used. "Morgoth" was a name given Melkor by the Elves. "Sauron" must have been a like naming.

Sauron might well permit even this name to be used somewhat, particularly among his upper caste minions, such as the Mouth or Saruman. Perhaps it was his true name that the Mouth was permitted privately to use. Gandalf did not mind sharing his true name of "Olorin" among friends but Sauron would be more careful. Recall that even Sauron was not created evil in the beginning, and to some extent it may have pleased him to hear his true name on someone's lips from time to time. Saruman would have been one to know that name. Would Sauron have revealed it to the Mouth?

That the Mouth would use the name "Sauron" before the foes of Sauron, or any others, may not be remarkable in that the idea would be to instill or reinforce fear.

But there is another name of Sauron that may answer the riddle.

Recall also that Sauron for an age called himself "Anatar" the Lord of Gifts. This might well have been the name that a Black Numenorean sorcerer would have called him, who had worshipped Sauron as a god, perhaps even in that day. The entire point of this cult was the prolongation of life, the rejection of death (the "Gift of Eru"), rebellion against Eru's servants, the Vala, and the worship both of Anatar/Sauron himself in the flesh and of Melkor in the spirit. Sauron would certainly not permit those he ruled by fear to call him "Lord of Gifts."

But he might have let the Mouth get away with it. This may have pleased Sauron's vanity to be reminded of a scheme that had nearly succeeded, and that might have yet finally succeeded in that time, and so take away the scalding sting of the defeats that had left his hand first blackened and then bereft of a certain finger.