Matriarchal or Patriarchal societies in ME ???

[The Might]

Yep, it's time for me to start my first, as I deem it at least, serious thread here on the Downs, and I'm chosing a matter I have been thinking of for quite some time.
I am definitely not talking about all the inhabitants of ME, but about each of the different ethnical and socio-political groups, and also not about only one time period but about all the history of ME and perhaps also the evolution of these societies in time.

I am waiting to see your responses.

[Estelyn Telcontar]

We do read of at least one matriarchal society in LotR, and that in a Hobbit-like surrounding - Gollum's family is described by Gandalf in 'The Shadow of the Past':

...a clever-handed and quiet-footed little people.
...of hobbit-kind...
There was among them a family of high repute, for it was larger and wealthier than most, and it was ruled by a grandmother of the folk, stern and wise in old lore, such as they had.
...his grandmother, desiring peace, expelled him from the family and turned him out of her hole.

Now, we don't know if this matriarchal family structure was the rule or the exception among Gollum's people, but the context shows that the grandmother was the one who made decisions concerning family welfare. Also, the fact that it is called "her hole" shows that she owned the property, always an important factor in power structures - ownership equals power.

[The Might]

I thought of the Stoors as well, and since at one point the Hobbits were still one folk it could be that all Hobbits used at one point a matriarchal system, and that afterwards those in the Shire changed this habit and adopted new ones perhaps similar to those in Arnor

In the First Age we also have examples of people being led by a woman - the folk of Haleth or Haladin, though it is important in my opinion to keep in mind that she only claimed this title after her brother and father had been killed by Orcs in Thargelion
Still, the fact that her people followed her and did not look for another person to rule them, shows that these Men war open minded, unlike those in later ages where it is visible the role of women in society had decreased a lot

[Lalwendë]

Well two powerful matriarchs that I wouldn't like to tangle with are Galadriel and Lobelia.

Lobelia is probably the most traditional type of matriarch and a character type I instantly recognise: the formidable wife and mother who is quite determined that her family, her husabnd and her son will do well for themselves, and what's more, be seen to be doing well for themselves. Anyone in the UK will know what I mean if I raise the name of Hyacinth Bucket (pronounced Bouquet). But for all her snobbery and pushiness, Lobelia has a good heart in the end, and manages to battle the ruffians with the aid of her trusty umbrella.

Galadriel appears to defer to Celeborn, but we know who is in charge. She first has the Elessar and later has Nenya, both crafted by Celebrimbor and gifted to her (he is in love with Galadriel but his love remains unrequited, which hints that she exerts a powerful romantic attraction too), and she makes use of them to strengthen (to create?) the magic of Lothlorien, a place which seems to act as a 'temporal shift'. Galadriel seeks to exercise power, certainly at first, and she's just one example demonstrating to us that Tolkien was not (as many hapless critics say) dismissive of women. I wonder what her apparent public deference to Celeborn tells us about Elven society?

[littlemanpoet]

There are patriarchs in patriarchal societies,
and matriarchs in patriarchal societies;
likewise, there are patriarchs in matriarchal societies,
and matriarchs in matriarchal societies.

Of those named so far (Galadriel, Haleth, Lobelia, and 'Grandma Gollum'), the first three are matriarchs in patriarchal societies. Only Grandma Gollum is a matriarch in a potentially matriarchal society.

Numenor is another example of matriarchs in a patriarchal society, and is the most well-recorded instance of it: we have record that the law of the land was actually changed in order to make sure that the eldest daughter ascends the throne in the absence of a son. This law was ignored by certain treasonous usurpers, but it still was the law.

The conclusion is, as far as we can tell from Tolkien's writings, that Middle Earth appears to have been made up exclusively of demonstrably patriarchal societies. Within these societies, the standing of women varied from culture to culture according to historic developments within each.

[The Might]

Good point littlemanpoet, I guess you are right...
Also consdering that all other societies seem to be patriarchal, I expect the Stoors were as well, and that perhaps in absence of Smeagol's grandfather or of another elderly family member the decision was made by the eldest person - his grandmother
Even Eru is presented just like the God of Christians as a patriarchal figure
Even Melian could be probably considered a matriarch, Thingol might have been king, but everyone knows who really was the boss in Doriath and who kept it safe.
I wonder what would have however happened had Galadriel accepted the Ring...perhaps a change ?

[littlemanpoet]

On Galadriel, you can bet that if she had accepted the Ring, there would have been an outright matriarchy ... but not a good one. (Note that I distinguish between "matriarchy" and "evil/bad"; they are not necessarily the same thing. )

Regarding Melian, you are still dealing with a patriarchal society. Thingol was still the one who made the decisions, usually listening and making use of Melian's wise counsel, but not always; and when he failed to take her counsel, his decisions failed.

I find it very interesting and gratifying how Tolkien consistently included wise women as powerful influences for good within patriarchal societies.

[Lalwendë]

Originally Posted by lmp

I find it very interesting and gratifying how Tolkien consistently included wise women as powerful influences for good within patriarchal societies.

Yes, Tolkien certainly did not display any dislike of women as leaders, but his societies are broadly patriarchal - which is not noteworthy of him making any 'point' really, as Western society today remains broadly patriarchal yet women can ascend to the top with a lot of luck and superhuman effort (must insert a here). Tolkien recognised that women too were capable of being inspiring leaders - and inspired capable leaders!

I wonder does he make a 'point' where he shows societies that cannot accept women as their leaders, as in the schemers and plotters of Numenor?

Anyway, thinking about it there could be one fully matriarchal society in Middle earth, if it can be viewed as a 'society', that of the spiders. If we are going to look at that as a society then its not the most pleasant one, is it? Maybe this again shows that Tolkien disliked the idea of either a complete patriarchy or matriarchy? Hmmm...

[Thinlómien]

An interesting thread, but I'm afraid I can't add anything decent. (The only point I had in mind resembled that of Elempí's, who - I must say - said it a lot better than I could ever had and whose point was more comprehensive than mine would have been.)

Originally Posted by Lal

Anyway, thinking about it there could be one fully matriarchal society in Middle earth, if it can be viewed as a 'society', that of the spiders. If we are going to look at that as a society then its not the most pleasant one, is it?

I wonder what the militant, hot-headed-type feminists would say about this...

Originally Posted by Lal

Anyone in the UK will know what I mean if I raise the name of Hyacinth Bucket (pronounced Bouquet).

You don't even have to be in UK to know her... I must say I find Lobelia far more pleasant that Mrs. Bucket.

Originally Posted by Lal

Maybe this again shows that Tolkien disliked the idea of either a complete patriarchy or matriarchy? Hmmm...

I'm sure there was/must be at least one complete patriarchy that wasn't too horrible, but I just can't get what it was.

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Originally Posted by Thinlómien

I'm sure there was/must be at least one complete patriarchy that wasn't too horrible, but I just can't get what it was.

I'm not quite sure. Tolkien, I think, shows most of the "good" societies standing on the balance and harmony between the male and female, be it king and queen or something else. We are shown societies where the woman (queen or something like that) is not treated just like something inferior, but uses her abilities to good advice and to step in when the male ruler loses his temper (Thingol for example - not that this always works; but also in the case of Celeborn when he is about to offend Gimli for the dwarves' awakening of balrog). On the other hand, the balance stands on that the women, even if with superior abilities to their male counterparts (also I think it's fine to remember Melian and Galadriel), do not in attempt to seize the power if it was not given to them, even though they'd have the "right" for it because they'd be possibly more fit for the role.

Originally Posted by The Might

Even Melian could be probably considered a matriarch, Thingol might have been king, but everyone knows who really was the boss in Doriath and who kept it safe.

I used this quote to compare with what I have just said above. Melian never wanted to be seen as the matriarch - meaning the first ruler - of Doriath. Thingol was the king, all the power and all the right and law was in his hands. But Melian didn't lose anything - I think she has only gained, as well as the mentioned Galadriel. They didn't become downtrodden, they were treated with most respect - on the other hand, for example all the usurper kings of Númenor (Ar-Pharazon being the most significant example I think) ended wrong.
So, in general: Tolkien shows the exclusively patriarchal and/or matriarchal societies in ME as something which is not generally common, and also it's not much, let's say, healthy. This however might accord with the overall concept of power in ME as being the most dangerous thing if misused without control.

I wonder now, what do we assign to the moments, when at the beginning of the War of the Ring the two societies most relied upon by the Free peoples - Gondor and Rohan - both have only a weary male ruler who is broken and has lost his female counterpart... a sign of the old, dying age when the new must come?

[Thinlómien]

Legate (and others maybe too) are you saying that Celeborn had more official power than Galadriel the same way Thingol had more offical power than Melian. I've always considered Galadriel and Celeborn "equal rulers" meaning they both had as much power as the another had ie. Celeborn was not the official "head of state" any more than Galadriel was. I'm wondering why do we have different views about the matter and which one is correct.

[Lalaith]

It could be argued that peoples or tribes who take their names from their female rulers can be classified as matriarchies. The People of Haleth being a case in point. It wasn't just Haleth herself who fought but also other women, too. The Galadhrim...were they named after Galadriel or is another etymological origin?

I would also say that Numenor always sounded about as patriarchal a society as you can get, to me. Even after the law was changed, the queens were mostly rather diffident and lacklustre....more along the lines of Anne than Elizabeth I, to take a real-life analogy.

[Thinlómien]

Originally Posted by Lalaith

The Galadhrim...were they named after Galadriel or is another etymological origin?

I found this from the Silmarillion's appendices:

kal- (gal-) This root, meaning "shine" appears in Calacirya, Calaquendi, Tar-calion, galvorn, Gil-galad, Galadriel. The last two names have no conncetion with Sindarin galadh "tree", although in the case of Galadriel such a connexion was often made, and the name altered to Galadhriel. In the High-elven speech her name was Al(a)táriel, derived from alata "radiance" (Sindarin galad) and riel "garlanded maiden" (from a root rig- "twine, wreathe"): the whole meaning "maiden crowned with a radiant garland", referring to her hair . . .

So, the galadhrim were named after galadh "tree" and Galadriel after galad "radiance" and all was just coincidence...

Or was it?

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Originally Posted by Thinlómien

Celeborn was not the official "head of state" any more than Galadriel was. I'm wondering why do we have different views about the matter and which one is correct.

Well, one thing is, because it was Celeborn, not Galadriel, who represented Lórien in the "outside disputations", as much as the head of the state. We read for example in the Appendixes to LotR, that after the War of the Ring, Celeborn goes out and destroys Dol Guldur and then - the main part - he makes "diplomatic talks" with Thranduil and they divide the Greenwood.
But to be correct, the "head of state" was actually neither of them. In Unfinished Tales, "The history of Galadriel and Celeborn" we are told, that

There they dwelt while the Third Age lasted, but they took no title of King or Queen; for they said that they were only guardians of this small but fair realm, the last eastward outpost of the Elves.

But nevertheless, Haldir (and others) take them as their rulers, for our purposes we might think that "Lord and Lady" mean the same as "King and Queen".
In the LotR, all the way from the borders of Lórien to Caras Galadhon, C&G are referred to only together:

'Now you have come thus far, you must be brought before the Lord and the Lady. They shall judge you, to hold you or to give you leave, as they will.'...

'...though the Lord and Lady may know, I do not.'...

...'they bring me a message from the Lord and Lady of the Galadhrim.'...

...'Here is the city of the Galadhrim where dwell the Lord Celeborn and Galadriel the Lady of Lórien.'...

(emphasise mine)
But from then on, when the Fellowship comes before the Lord and the Lady, it is Celeborn who speaks, not Galadriel. Galadriel is the "second voice": I am not saying that she is less important than Celeborn, but that she is something like Melian was: Thingol was speaking and Melian interfered only when she had something to add. Thingol was the one who was first speaking with the outsiders, Beren, the dwarves, whatever. So is Celeborn. Galadriel interferes only when she has something to add. Of course, in the matters she feels important, she acts on her own account - but somehow I get the feeling that the peek into the Mirror is not an "official" thing. And also, when giving the gifts to the Fellowship, Galadriel says "these are the gifts which the Lord and Lady of Lórien offer to you". And few times before, she speaks about - or even to - Celeborn like this:

For the Lord of the Galadhrim is accounted the wisest of the Elves of Middle-Earth,
and a giver of gifts beyond the power of kings.

Says Galadriel. I don't know, somehow I get the feeling that she's treating him with respect... you know, like if they were equal, but Galadriel behaves the way that she treats him as an authority over herself. Yeah, now I think I happened to sum very well what I wanted to explain. The female counterparts of the rulers have the same power, but they willingly treat their husbands as greater authority. Yeah, that's what I had in mind, I hope you understand now what I meant, Lommy.

Originally Posted by Lalaith

The Galadhrim...were they named after Galadriel or is another etymological origin?

Nope, there is something very long written about it in the History of Galadriel and Celeborn in the Unfinished Tales, Appendix E, "The names of Celeborn and Galadriel". The main thing is, that Galadriel's name comes from the word "galad" like in "Gil-Galad" (Starlight, "galad" meaning "light" here) whilst the name of the Silvan Elves Galadhrim comes from the word "galadh" - a "tree", and they called themselves Galadhrim long before C&G even first came there. To extend this, just one quote.

On occasional confusion of Galadriel's name with the word galadh my father wrote:

When Celeborn and Galadriel became the rulers of the Elves of the Lórien (who were mainly in origin Silvan Elves and called themselves the Galadhrim) the name of Galadriel became associated with trees, an association that was aided by the name of her husband, which also appeared to contain a tree-word; so that outside Lórien among those whose memories of the ancient days and Galadriel's history had grown dim her name was often altered to Galadhriel. Not in Lórien itself.

[Lalaith]

Ah, thank you, Legate and Lommy. I remembered I'd read something about that whole business, somewhere, but couldn't remember what, if you see what I mean....

[Lalwendë]

Firstly as to the meaning of Galadriel's name:

Originally Posted by davem

Galadriel’s name is usually translated as ‘Lady of Light’ but its actually closer in meaning to ‘radiient haired maiden’ Tolkien describes her hair as ‘’shining’. It shines with the light of the Two Trees, So, if the hairs are set in animperishable crystal each by Gimli, what he will end up with are three imperishable crystals, shining with the light of the Two Trees.

The similarity between the Quenya & Sindarin words for ‘Tree’ & ‘Light’ are interesting in this context:

Quenya Sindarin

Alta = Light = Galad
Alda = Tree = Galadh

There's quite a fabulous and mad thread started by davem on the topic here: Galadhremmin Ennorath and if you read Verlyn Flieger's Splintered Light you'll find that the concept of Light and Trees seems to be an important one to several readers. Well worth investigation if you're interested in the spirituality/cosmology of Tolkien's creation.

Originally Posted by Legate

The female counterparts of the rulers have the same power, but they willingly treat their husbands as greater authority. Yeah, that's what I had in mind, I hope you understand now what I meant, Lommy.

I think I know what you're getting at Legate but I'm not sure so let me pass something by you. The way I see it is this: in Middle-earth we see rulers and consorts where the consort is patently more powerful than the ruler e.g. Thingol and Melian, Celeborn and Galadriel. However, the more powerful one in the partnership does not 'over-rule' or dominate the less powerful partner. I suppose a real world analogy might be Margaret Thatcher who was often portrayed by satirists as being horrible to her husband and he was often portrayed as a tiny little man in comparison to her.

It is not that such women treat their husbands as having greater authority, but that they have the good grace to treat their marriage as an equal partnership and not 'boss' their husband so much that he appears ineffective and 'unmanly'....alright I know I'm opening up lines of humour here... But maybe, just perhaps, this shows that Tolkien had an idealised view of women as being balanced people who would be more willing to show the grace to be equals rather than the boss? Or does it show that Tolkien thought that achieving the perfect balance of male/female (getting a bit Jungian now) was the proper way of leadership? He is not afraid to show the softer sides of Aragorn or Faramir, is he?

[Lalaith]

Interesting points, Lalwende - Luthien and Beren are another case in point. Was Tol Galen in any way a seat of power?

[littlemanpoet]

Originally Posted by Lalwendë

Anyway, thinking about it there could be one fully matriarchal society in Middle earth, if it can be viewed as a 'society', that of the spiders. If we are going to look at that as a society then its not the most pleasant one, is it? Maybe this again shows that Tolkien disliked the idea of either a complete patriarchy or matriarchy?

I think that would be reading more into it that Tolkien intended, or is actually there whether he intended it or not. It appears to me that Tolkien decided on spiders for his monsters, and used spider behavior, which happens to be matriarchal.

Originally Posted by Thinlómien

I must say I find Lobelia far more pleasant that Mrs. Bucket.

Now this seems a more telling point than Lal's above in regard to spiders, for Lobelia means spiderwoman. What's the sense we get from this? That this is a hobbit woman who spins webs of mischief and selfishness and greed, trying to grasp Bag End from the Bagginses. It just so happens that she's a spiderlike woman. Does this mean that Tolkien equated women in general with spiders? No. Did he equate evil or selfish, grasping 'women' with spiders? Yes, in two cases: Lobelia and Shelob.

Originally Posted by Legate

...the women, even if with superior abilities to their male counterparts (also I think it's fine to remember Melian and Galadriel), do not in attempt to seize the power if it was not given to them, even though they'd have the "right" for it because they'd be possibly more fit for the role.

This puts me in mind of European history, particalurly that of the early Merovingian. There was a Merovingian king who was apparently not the sharpest arrow in the quiver, and there was the mayor of the palace, equivalent to a steward, who actually took care of the business of running the kingdom. Eventually the mayor (Pepin the Short) unseated the ruling Merovingian king (with political help from the pope ). The more capable sits behind the throne until the weakness of the ruler becomes so glaring that a combination of ambition and desire to run the kingdom better result in usurpation. It happened over and over throughout the middle ages. What's interesting is that in Tolkien it doesn't happen but rarely.

There are men who could be construed to be wiser than the ruling men, so to call this a necessarily gender issue in Middle Earth is not entirely accurate. The most obvious example of this is the line of Elendil as wise men who are actually of the Numenorean royal line, but advise rather than attempt to unseat the reigning king or queen; at least until they are banished from the king's presence.

Originally Posted by Thinómien

I've always considered Galadriel and Celeborn "equal rulers" meaning they both had as much power as the another had ie. Celeborn was not the official "head of state" any more than Galadriel was.

Their spheres of influence and power are different. Celeborn is ruler of Lorien, and Galadriel is his Lady and advisor. By virtue of her Elven Ring, history, and lineage, she is a member of the White Council, which apparently Celeborn is not. So she may only be second in command in Lorien, but she is politically more powerful than Celeborn in an "international" sense .... as well as in fact of personal power as a High Elf who has seen the face of the gods.

[Formendacil]

Originally Posted by littlemanpoet

Their spheres of influence and power are different. Celeborn is ruler of Lorien, and Galadriel is his Lady and advisor. By virtue of her Elven Ring, history, and lineage, she is a member of the White Council, which apparently Celeborn is not. So she may only be second in command in Lorien, but she is politically more powerful than Celeborn in an "international" sense .... as well as in fact of personal power as a High Elf who has seen the face of the gods.

I'm not so sure that Celeborn is ruler of Lórien, and Galadriel is not, as you suggest. The case has been made in this thread (Legate's post) that they were equal in their power in Lórien.

That does not mean that there were not two spheres of influence. That Celeborn is the military leader of the two would seem to be undisputed. Celeborn directs the military campaigns against Dol Guldur, and makes the military pact with Thranduil divided the Greenwood after the war. And while I would agree that Galadriel's chief and preferred sphere of influence is on the international scene, I do not think that she is merely Celeborn's advisor and wife. The way they are referred to by the Galadhrim strongly suggests to me that they were a ruling partnership.

Going back to Thingol and Melian, it was another matter in Doriath. To the Sindar, Thingol alone was lord. He was lord of the Teleri before he was lost in Nan Elmoth, and he remains as the only mentioned overlord of Círdan and the Sindar (if memory serves) after the foundation of the realms. Furthermore, the claims of Dior and his sons are always as "Heirs of Elu", never as "Heirs of Thingol and Melian".

Melian, therefore, better fits LMP's description of Galadriel: Lady and Advisor (not always heeded, I might add), and more powerful on the "international" scene. The Kings of the Noldor all defer to Thingol as the sole and chief lord of the Sindar, but notice who actually has the power on the international scene. Melian. Her girdle is what the Noldor and Morgoth are really concerned about. But there is no reason, as I see it, to think that Melian was a fully and complete sovereign of Doriath, as Thingol was.

[littlemanpoet]

Originally Posted by Formendacil

The way they are referred to by the Galadhrim strongly suggests to me that they were a ruling partnership.

Both interpretations seem possible from the facts given, but I have no quibble with your interpretation. Perhaps, if you are correct, Galadriel would have it no other way.

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Originally Posted by Lalwendë

I think I know what you're getting at Legate but I'm not sure so let me pass something by you. The way I see it is this: in Middle-earth we see rulers and consorts where the consort is patently more powerful than the ruler e.g. Thingol and Melian, Celeborn and Galadriel. However, the more powerful one in the partnership does not 'over-rule' or dominate the less powerful partner. I suppose a real world analogy might be Margaret Thatcher who was often portrayed by satirists as being horrible to her husband and he was often portrayed as a tiny little man in comparison to her.

It is not that such women treat their husbands as having greater authority, but that they have the good grace to treat their marriage as an equal partnership and not 'boss' their husband so much that he appears ineffective and 'unmanly'....alright I know I'm opening up lines of humour here... But maybe, just perhaps, this shows that Tolkien had an idealised view of women as being balanced people who would be more willing to show the grace to be equals rather than the boss? Or does it show that Tolkien thought that achieving the perfect balance of male/female (getting a bit Jungian now) was the proper way of leadership? He is not afraid to show the softer sides of Aragorn or Faramir, is he?

Just to confirm for possible readers, yeah, that's just what I had in mind. And to the questions you posed, I think both the points are possible, who knows what would Professor say to us, but perhaps he felt it like this?

[Bêthberry]

Originally Posted by Lalaith

I would also say that Numenor always sounded about as patriarchal a society as you can get, to me. Even after the law was changed, the queens were mostly rather diffident and lacklustre....more along the lines of Anne than Elizabeth I, to take a real-life analogy.

Interesting point in an interesting thread. Lalaith's mention of Anne and Elizabeth reminds me of a folk saying common during Tudor times, that when the throne fell to a female, bad times were portended. This was a social attitude which Elizabeth I constantly had to face and work with, if I recall my history correctly. Whenever I have read over the Numenorian kings I recall this attitude and wonder if there isn't something applicable to Numenor here.

[The Might]

Very interesting posts, and also very interesting quotes

I liked the point made about the spiders being the perhaps only entirely matriarchal society, and I believe this is quite possible

As far as Easterling or Southron communities are concerned I am quite sure that they have a fully patriarchal society. Because of a less developed society I would expect that womed had less rights in the east and south then in the more advanced north-west part of Middle-earth.
The same would go in my opinion for others such as the Beornings, the Woodmen, the Woses or the Lossoth.

Varda however seems to be viewed as a type of matriarch by Elves and worshiped for kindling the stars in the sky.

[Bêthberry]

Originally Posted by The Might

As far as Easterling or Southron communities are concerned I am quite sure that they have a fully patriarchal society. Because of a less developed society I would expect that womed had less rights in the east and south then in the more advanced north-west part of Middle-earth.
The same would go in my opinion for others such as the Beornings, the Woodmen, the Woses or the Lossoth.

But is it appropriate to think of the Easterlings and Southrons as having a less developed society, or that the north-west part of Middle-earth is more 'advanced'?

And about Varda, is there a relationship between worship of a female god and matriarchial societies? There is archeological evidence of goddesses being supplanted by montheism, but I'm not sure what the social organisation was of those socieities.

And about Galadriel and Celeborn, it is interesting that while she sails west we are not told definitely when Celeborn leaves (I hope I am remembering that correctly. I haven't reread LotR in some time).

[The Might]

just wanted to make a small explanation: by Varda I do not want to imply that Elves had a matriarchal society just because they worshiped here, but that this kind of praise to a female shows they were not afraid or unwilling to accept females as leaders or as higher powers

as far as as the Easterlings and Southrons are concerned, I believe the fact they were under Sauron's control for so long is a reason why they could not develop
Gondor on the other hand benefited from its legacy dating back to the Second Age, and Rohan had definitely learned much from Gondor

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Originally Posted by The Might

just wanted to make a small explanation: by Varda I do not want to imply that Elves had a matriarchal society just because they worshiped here, but that this kind of praise to a female shows they were not afraid or unwilling to accept females as leaders or as higher powers

Of course not, and you could not have gone this far, we have all these mentioned Galadriels and Melians who show it rather well. This is just the same - but again, Varda is not taken as, as you say, leader. This is the difference: to admire someone or to praise them might not necessarily mean that you accept them as your superiors. Although also we can see it vice versa... (okay, I think we might stop it, since this is not a political discussion thread)

Originally Posted by Bêthberry

And about Galadriel and Celeborn, it is interesting that while she sails west we are not told definitely when Celeborn leaves (I hope I am remembering that correctly. I haven't reread LotR in some time).

Actually, that is the strangest part of it. Galadriel sails with the Ringbearers, but we have no word about Celeborn. We are told that

But after the passing of Galadriel in a few years Celeborn grew weary of his realm and went to Imladris to dwell with the sons of Elrond.

This is, I think, the last we know about his fate. Anyone else has anything more to add?

P.S. And I apologize for one misquotation I made in one of my previous posts. I am saying there that Celeborn destroys Dol Guldur - to be precise, according to the Appendix B, Celeborn takes the army, but Galadriel breaks down the walls of Dol Guldur (possibly after the forces are defeated, as an act of "un-unhallowing" the place).

[Lalaith]

This was a social attitude which Elizabeth I constantly had to face and work with, if I recall my history correctly

And it is of course ironic that England has arguably never been greater than when ruled by Queens...Elizabeth I and Victoria....you'll forgive me if I don't extend the analogy to Mrs T...ahem....back to Tolkien.
Yes, I was always under the impression that Galadriel had been pivotal in the storming of Dol Guldor. And I always wondered exactly what her role had been. She certainly argued against Saruman who favoured pusillanimity.

[The Might]

this act of bringing down its walls is similar to Luthien destroying Tol Sirion during the Quenta Silmarillion
it doesn't necessarily mean that she took place in the battle, but that is possible as well, I do not think she would stay at home and wait for Celeborn to come and tell her all the Orcs are dead and that she can go break down the walls
I personally think she did before the battle actually began