This should be a rhetorical question...

[Durelin]

But it's not. I want it answered!

The night before last, I came upon a shocking revelation.

I have never heard of a fat Elf. Ever. And I could never really imagine one.

Why on earth is that?

Obviously their diet and/or digestive system might very well differ from Men's, but can either really be that different? All we ever hear about are Elves eating lembas, but surely they ate other things. But were they perhaps vegetarians?

We certainly see Elves as extremely environmental, and so possibly keep animals out of their diet (not that being a vegetarian, vegan, etc. is required for being environmental!).

And even if their diet is extremely selective, perhaps even to the point of a true Jainist's diet, might they even enjoy their food?

If this is belongs in "Middle-Earth Mirth" or perhaps specifically on the "Ask a Stupid Question" thread, I apologize. But though I do find it amusing, I do seriously wonder why this is.

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

I think that Tolkien says somewhere about elves, that they can more or less look like they wish. Or, better said, that they are not so much bound by the material world in these terms. Possibly neither of them wants to look fat

[Durelin]

Well, that was a simpler (and yet not) answer than I expected.

[Estelyn Telcontar]

No, that would be Maiar who can choose their appearance, not Elves.

According to The Hobbit, the Wood-Elves were feasting at a fire, and Bilbo and the Dwarves found that

The smell of the roast meats was... enchanting...

Since the Elves did not welcome their unexpected guests, it is to be assumed that they planned to eat the meat themselves. The Wood-Elves also went hunting in the forest, we are told - and that word normally refers to animals, not vegetables!

The way Galion, the butler, is described, I could imagine that he would be well-rounded, since he loved drinking and feasting.

Now, we can quibble about The Hobbit not being quite canonical for Middle-earth as it is written in LotR. We could also debate whether the other Elves in Rivendell and Lothlorien might have had other eating habits than the Wood-Elves. And of course, it is possible that the Elves in the Undying Lands had changed their menus completely. At any rate, this is all the written evidence I could find concerning the diet of Elves in Middle-earth.

Perhaps HoME has more...

[Lalwendë]

Originally Posted by Durelin

We certainly see Elves as extremely environmental, and so possibly keep animals out of their diet (not that being a vegetarian, vegan, etc. is required for being environmental!).

Well I certainly know a lot of overweight vegetarians and vegans so I doubt that would keep an Elf biologically slender! I suppose if they live in two worlds at once (being temporally challenged) they could hide their big butt in one world?

[The Might]

I think that due to the special link between their bodies and their souls they were not so easily ifluenced by such pleasures such as food, drink, or..,you know what I mean

They are not easily deceived by their own kind; and their spirits being masters of their bodies, they are seldom swayed by the desires of the body only, but are by nature continent and steadfast. ~ Laws and Customs of the Eldar, Morgoth's Ring

Still, this comes a little bit in conflict with the image of Elves drinking Dorwinion wine in the Hobbit

Considering however why and how Tolkien wrote the Hobbit and the Laws and Customs of the Eldar, I am inclined to think that such abuses were only possible among more uneducated Silvan Elves, and that Noldor, Vanyar, Falmari or Sindar would have never done something like this. Still, I doubt that Thranduil's folk did that on a daily basis, and so it might have been a single case.

So no, no fast food Elves I'm afraid

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Originally Posted by The Might

their spirits being masters of their bodies

This is what I meant when I said "that they are not so much bound by the material world in these terms". And yes, I suppose the Silvan elves might have gotten a little bit "wild" in this way... but this is mere speculation.

[Durelin]

Originally Posted by Esty

No, that would be Maiar who can choose their appearance, not Elves.

I thought that sounded odd, but I am not a lore person, and so I never make judgments.

Ah, so they did eat meat in The Hobbit! Thanks for the quote, Estelyn.

And you are quite right, Lal, that came out as a generalization. I just happen to know a couple people who are vegetarians for health purposes. But...duh, I forgot...carbohydrates are the things that are supposed to be evil. *rolls eyes*

I think the point about not succumbing to desires is what I first thought of as why the Elves might always be perfectly slender. But it's not just overeating and fast food that causes excess weight in people. The Elves are likely free of disease and insanely slow metabolisms, though, eh? They have it good, don't they?

But the Elves are far from perfect. They are many examples of Elves being "tempted" to go down darker paths, and so I found it difficult to believe that they could and would resist all minor temptations, too.

Perhaps it was simpler, and Tolkien could not have risked having an overweight Elf, or Sam might not have nearly as much awe for them, as he might consider them simply tall hobbits with a little less hair.

The Elves are often considered beautiful by non-Elves (and slender is considered beautiful?), and really that's pretty unfair! Was Tolkien as trapped in the material world as all of pop culture?!

Except, when you look at the other non-human races: Those Hobbits were often fairly portly, and couldn't that be attractive to them? And what about Dwarves? Their concepts of beauty are definitely quite different, I imagine.

Personally, I think there had to be at least one Elf who wanted a little (or a lot of) extra meat on his bones.

[Amras Oronar]

And af course, people living in that days had too do a lot more then people nowdays. Overweight wasn't really a problem untill cars and stuff (1900+?) came arround I believe. Before that only the rich people were fat because they were lazy and didn't do anything, but I believe the average elve didn't sit arround eating all day, now take for instance a Silvan elf as they being discussed most here. They hunted a lot I believe is said. So, I don't think if you eat only normal meat and vegetables and stuff, and not the big greasy **** they sell nowadays, (I don't believe the elves invented fast food yet....) and go on a hunting party thrice a week, you won't have any overweight either

[The Might]

This does go for most inhabitants in Middl-earth, be they Elves or other races. Still some, such as the Hobbits were quite lazy. Among the Elves we can't be sure how much exercise they got, but I suppose they stayed fit. Still, in some cases such as Rivendell the Elves might not have had the possibility to get so much work out as they might have wanted.
I wonder no if lembas makes you fat...

[Boromir88]

Esty I don't think we have to worry about canoncity. Remember the 'merry feast' Elrond has before the Council of Elrond. I don't think we are ever told what foods are there but with dwarves in company and we are told the food was all Frodo's hunger could desire...it surely would have been a mighty feast with I would imagine more than just vegetables. So Rivendell at least had a variety of foods to offer all it's guests.

[Lalwendë]

Originally Posted by Amras Oronar

And af course, people living in that days had too do a lot more then people nowdays. Overweight wasn't really a problem untill cars and stuff (1900+?) came arround I believe.

What about Friar Tuck? And Hobbits lazy? It takes a lot of work to make all that food and ale you know. And to harvest pipe-weed. Hobbits were just too short for their weight.

Seriously, this thread is a sign of the times, equating sin with things like eating, drinking and smoking, when sin used to be things like lust and avarice and blasphemy. I doubt Tolkien would have thought food, drink and smoking were sins as he was a committed smoker, enjoyed a beer (the Inklings used to meet in the morning, and morning drinking would alarm today's health freaks) and loved his food. The only thing keeping him from being very overweight will have been that he rode a bike and walked a lot, and he was not slender anyway.

Gillian McKeith would've had a field day with him and he'd be classed as an incredibly evil sinner by today's standards.

[The Saucepan Man]

I'm most definately with Lal on this one. Vegetarianism is not a healthy diet as it generally requires vitamin and mineral supplements and the like (or some revolting meat substitute) to replace those lost through lack of meat (part of our natural diet). And slender does not equal perfection. Beauty is not skin deep and resides in the eye of the beholder.

Hobbits weren't lazy. they just appreciated the finer things in life.

Give me a Hobbit for company any day, rather than one of those dreadful goody-two shoes, too perfect for their own good, wonderful slim, fair and healthy Elves. How insufferable they would be.

Oh, and I believe that Elves hunted from Rivendell. I suspect that even those ultimate teacher's pets, the Vanyar, hunted in Valinor ...

... with Orome.

Sign of the times indeed.

Hmm, I am obviously having ME Survivor withdrawal ...

[Formendacil]

What's this? A dozen posts, and no mention of Salgant of Gondolin, lord of the House of the Harp?

Mind you, we are talking "Book of Lost Tales" here, but he's most definitely described as fat:

Originally Posted by Tolkien, in the Book of Lost Tales,

but Salgant bore [a shield with a harp] of gold, and he alone rode into battle of all the sons of the Gondothlim, and he was heavy and squat.

Whether or not Tolkien had this idea of Elves in the LotR or post-LotR era (Galion is a possible proof for the Hobbit era), he clearly did in the Lost Tales era.

[Anguirel]

Curse you, Formendacil, I was just about to post that!

[Mithalwen]

To save me repeating myself....I will link this .

Also remember that to an extent ideas of health and beauty are culturally influenced. It is ony recently since food has become abundant in the west, due in part to modern agricultural methods, that to be thin has been regarded as desirable.... before it was a mark of poverty (and a suntan marked you as a peasant).....

And there is plenty of evidence for elves enjoying a party ... I am sure even Sauce wouldn't mind propping up a bar with dear old Galion and suspect Esty may well be right about him .....


As for the Might's quote ... it says desires of the body only..... not that they don't have desires of the flesh.... it is quite clear in the rest of that essay that they enjoy the desire that it mainly refers to ... just that the enjoy it with one other only at a ceertain point in their lives........ .... and so with drinking/ eating ..... just because they don't go in for Rabelaisian levels of indulgence it doesn't make them ascetics.

[The Saucepan Man]

Originally Posted by Mithalwen

And there is plenty of evidence for elves enjoying a party ... I am sure even Sauce wouldn't mind propping up a bar with dear old Galion and suspect Esty may well be right about him .....

Ah, Galion. Yes indeed. He's my kind of Elf.

[Lalaith]

I think that due to the special link between their bodies and their souls they were not so easily ifluenced by such pleasures such as food, drink, or..,you know what I mean

I think this is true up to a point. Remember Legolas not needing to sleep unless he wanted to, and elves choosing not to have children if the parents were going to spend time apart during the offspring's formative years. I imagine elves just had more control over their bodies than we do - they enjoyed good food, good wine and all those other pleasures. They were just able to enjoy them without *needing* them, or them having the same effects on them as they do on us humbler folk.

Come to think of it, I know some people who are pretty elf-like in this way - they stuff their faces with good food and never get fat, drink fine wine all night and wake up the next morning bright-eyed...jolly annoying they are too. I begin to understand Saucie's anti-elf viewpoint....

[Holbytlass]

It almost seems that the two races' physique ought to be switched between hobbits and elves at least by their mobility. Meaning that hobbits seemed to do alot more physical work namely farming, digging out their holes and elves seem to be more sedentary with book/lore learning and even creating their homes with magic. Perhaps the elves actually did get out the ol' hammer and nails to build those flets and the hoes to raise the wheat(i'm assuming) for the lembas but it doesn't seem likely.

Then again there's fat and then there's fat. Hobbits may be rolypoly but overall I think them to be only 20-30 pounds over what todays standard says they ought to be, not too many of them being actually obese.

It's still perception, even in Tolkien's time. Skinny doesn't always mean healthy but healthy people who do eat right and are in tiptop physical condition are more toned and thinner. So it still makes sense for the elves to look thinner.

[Amras Oronar]

Aye, I'm agreeing with that, Hobbits aint so fat.. more a lil chubby if you know what I mean wel...like....*sigh* I can't find the right words in English for this I do really know what I am meaning, but I can't seem to find the good discription for it in English

[Thinlómien]

I think there were fat Elves. It is not just mentioned. And that's just normal. Imagine Tolkien describing for example the House of Elrond as : "there were lots of Elves. Some of them were fat." You don't need to write about minor things like that.

Every elf not described as slender can as well be fat. We can't know. As well as every elf not described as right-handed might be left-handed as well as right-handed. It's simple.

[Amras Oronar]

Hail Thinlómien, I mean, of how many Humans is there actually described that they are fat? perhaps there are fewer elves but...

[Mithalwen]

Forlong of Gondor, and Barliman Butturbur are described as fat and it is only the humans and Gollum (to whom everyone else no doubt appeared fat ) who are disparaging about fatness. In fact the wordt offender is Aragorn who is really quite offensive to Butturbur.

A degree of roundness was clearly considered normal and healthy in a hobbit - as a selfsufficient community vulnerable to the vagaries of harvest an efficient metabolism was an advantage....

And the elves did work according to LACE...... and apart from bread making the cooking was done by men in the main ( some strange intuition tells me barbecuing featured heavily - maybe that is the reason Celebrian shipped out early.... she grew and washed the salads, gathered up the ingredients , cutlery, crockery, made sure there was enough charcoal, rounded up the the kids and later did the washing up - and Elrond just prepares his "special" marinade using every bowl and chopping board in the kitchen), throws the meat on the grill and wonders why Celebrian isn't grateful for him doing the cooking .... ). In fact the reason that elf women developed Lembas as a complete source of nutrition was probably as a necessary response to male elf cookery.....

[Holbytlass]

Oh my gosh, I married an elf!! BTW, what does LACE mean?

Were the elves a slender as we envision? I think we see them by today's standard (even Tolkien in his own day) and visualiaze them very thin. But truly in "their time" (centuries ago being a "history") they may not have been.
Their society was a prosperous one, plenty of food and especially for the "royalty" (Elrond, Galdriel etc) plenty of others to do the work for them. As a sign of wealth people had a bit of fat on them-certainly not the skeletal-thin looks of those with not alot to eat.

[Mithalwen]

LACE is the acronym for "The laws and customs of the Eldar"
an essay in Morgoth's Ring (History of Middle Earth).

[Lalwendë]

Originally Posted by Mithalwen

In fact the reason that elf women developed Lembas as a complete source of nutrition was probably as a necessary response to male elf cookery.....

Maybe Lembas was a kind of Galaxy or Green and Blacks chocolate developed by Elven women as a comfort food to stuff their faces with after facing all that washing up left behind by the Barbecue binges of the men?

[Holbytlass]

Originally Posted by Lalwendë

Maybe Lembas was a kind of Galaxy or Green and Blacks chocolate developed by Elven women as a comfort food to stuff their faces with after facing all that washing up left behind by the Barbecue binges of the men?

I have to respectfully disagree with the lembas being a kind of chocolate theory only for the fact (according to movie Legolas) that one bite is enough to go on(something of that nature) and I can never stop at one bite of chocolate

thanks for the explanation, Mith.

[Eönwë]

Originally Posted by Holbytlass

I have to respectfully disagree with the lembas being a kind of chocolate theory only for the fact (according to movie Legolas) that one bite is enough to go on

In Mexico in the Mayan time chocolate was used as an energy drink. And just one sip could keep even a warrior going for a day. Or maybe thats more like the drink the hobbits are given lotr (I forget its name).