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12-21-2006, 10:42 AM | #1 |
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Shell-shocked Frodo .... or .... PTSD in LOTR
Many of us are familiar with some of the latest thinking that much of Tolkien's World War One experiences were translated into the War of the Ring.
Frodo and Sam went through many of the same experiences as did foot-soldiers involved in trench warfare. Sam seems to have come through it all relatively unscathed, but Frodo is a mess. Did he come down with Ring-induced "shell-shock"? The Vietnam era created a new term for the same thing: "Post Traumatic Stress Disorder". Is this what Frodo had? What did Frodo and Sam experience that was like trench warfare? What symptoms of PTSD and/or shell-shock did Frodo (and perhaps Sam) exhibit afterward? Is the Ring responsible? Solely? In part? Not at all? |
12-21-2006, 11:26 AM | #2 | |||
Laconic Loreman
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There is always one part in the book when I look and I can't help but say this is Tolkien remembering his war experience...or putting it in the story. And that is when Sam sees the dead Haradrim and starts to really think about him as a person:
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At first look I would be quick to down and squelch your surmise ...because of this: Quote:
So, to get more onto the topic of PTSD, I think it's quite possible that we can see signs of PTSD with Frodo or Sam (or other characters): Quote:
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12-21-2006, 12:00 PM | #3 | |||
Ghost Prince of Cardolan
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1/ He was stabbed and almost died from an infected (and let's call it supernatural) wound 2/ He was stung by a large arachnid and was technically dead 3/ He came close to death by starvation if not for lembas bread The lembas had a virtue without which they would long ago have lain down to die. 3/ He lost a finger having it bitten off 4/ He possibly was overcome by sulphuric fumes from a Volcano Of course Sam had to put up with 3/and 4/ as well....... Last edited by Essex; 12-21-2006 at 12:05 PM. |
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12-21-2006, 12:14 PM | #4 |
Pilgrim Soul
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Of course in the war in which Tolkien served, someone who laid down his arms and refused to fight stood a good chance of being shot at dawn . Many of those who suffered that fate would probably have been diagnosed with PTSD these days.........
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12-21-2006, 01:05 PM | #5 | |
A Mere Boggart
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This is one I've had at before. At the bottom I've copied over some stuff that's interesting.
But yes, Frodo may indeed suffer from PTSD, I recognise all the symptoms in myself as I have it. Of course, Tolkien will not have known it as such, but he will have been aware of shell-shock and the effects of WWI on himself were quite profound as seen in his writing, both creative and in personal writing about the loss of his dear friends. If you're wondering why Sam did not suffer, well, not everyone reacts in the same way to a stressful event. There's no way of predicting who will act in which way, but clearly Sam is one of those who does not react in an extreme way (which incidentally, you cannot help or prevent from happening - there's none of that unhelpful "pulling yourself together"!). But there are some significant differences between Frodo and Sam - note that Frodo had been repeatedly attacked and in near-death situations. I often wonder at just how cruel it was to allow the injured Frodo to set out out from Rivendell after what he'd faced on Weathertop... I think though, that PTSD cannot be the whole story. It certainly rings a bell for me, but I know full well just how other people simply do not understand the first thing about the condition, so Frodo's suffering must also work on other levels. Old thread with good stuff (I think) And on that, an interesting essay: here. Oh and a quote from me. This is where I first started thinking about the link. Quote:
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12-21-2006, 07:22 PM | #6 | |
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I almost hate to belabor this one, but the faces of the dead that Frodo sees in the water in the Dead Marshes, is strongly reminiscent, so I've read, of the memories of WWI veterans speaking of seeing their dead comrades lying at the bottom of trenches, under water.
Brrrrr!! The shrieking of the Nazgul apparently bears a striking aural resemblance to incoming mortar rounds and their respective effects on soldiers. The spouts of reek blasted into the sky by Orodruin, causing night when it is day mirrors the smoke covered killing fields of war. Even the orcs' comments and dialogue. "Don't you know we're at war?" ..... "Don't you know there's a war on?" From Shephard, Ben, A War of Nerves: Soldiers and Psychiatrists in the Twentieth Century Cambridge, 2001: Quote:
Does this fit Frodo? Consider the list that Essex has kindly contributed. Symptoms: (1) the reliving of the event in the form of nightmares and, particularly, flashbacks; (2) the persistent avoidance of stimuli associated with the trauma and numbing of general responsiveness; (3) the changing of persaonl demeanor and behavior. Are these symptoms exhibited by Frodo? |
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12-21-2006, 07:35 PM | #7 |
Cryptic Aura
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Is Tolkien having his cake and eating it too?
Okay, I've enjoyed the posts here and in previous threads about Frodo. What I'm going to do is ask a step beyond.
What would be the story purpose in presenting this terrible after-effect of battle? What I mean is, does the story exist to portray this horrible effect on soldiers, or does the story use this to characterise Frodo? If the latter, is it a way to garner sympathy amongst readers for Frodo? The other fascinating question which arises is how this psychologically modern understanding of the effects of the horrors of war on solders melds with the other aspects of the story which herald the warrior epic and the grand, marshalling effect of glorious death in battle.
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12-22-2006, 04:12 AM | #8 | |
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12-22-2006, 11:28 AM | #9 | |
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Taking a step back for a second, World War I was just gruesome and awful. It was even called the War to end all Wars because of it's violence. In the beginning it was old fighting tactics against new technology and the result was deadly. Also, for those who look at the period of World War I you realize it didn't solve any of the problems that caused the war. There really was no territory gained...they were fighting over feet and a few miles the whole time. The French and German lines were pretty a stalemate the entire duration of the war. Nobody had invaded Germany, yet it was Germany who went to England and France and said...let's stop this. There was nothing solved at all. It was pretty much an agreement to just end it since already enough people had died, and none of the countries could keep up with the cost to continue with the war. So, without solving any of the problems, everyone just agreed to stop since no one felt like they could continue on with the War. There was a poem I came across written by a World War I soldier (I'll see if I can dig it up as it's absolutely amazing). It's a poem talking about integrating the soldiers from the war back into society and how difficult that is going to be. These were men with not only physical wounds but mental wounds as well, and bringing them back into a now 'peaceful' society...how is it going to work? It's an amazing poem and he uses sarcasm to hammer the point home with the reader. It's titled 'Does it Matter.' I'll see if I can find the whole thing but pretty much the first couple stanzas were talking about the ending of the war and 'getting away from it all.' Then his last stanzas he uses sarcasm to talk about the problems of bringing soldiers back into society...For instance Losing your legs - does it matter? People won't look at you differently... Losing your sight - does it matter? there are good jobs for the blind... And the last part I will never forget... All the bad dreams - does it matter? You can just drink them away and forget... Eventhough PTSD wasn't coined back in World War I the effects were still around. And the problem arose of bringing these physically and mentally effected soldiers back into a society where there was no more war. Perhaps, Tolkien was trying to effect the readers in the way that the soldier of World War I effected me when I read it? Eventhough if that author uses sarcasm to act like he's just shrugging everything off...that's the very reason why it's so effective! And it really hits home. Some more things... I think in both cases its the authors trying to get to the readers and show them how it was like...show them the experiences. Me, I've never come close to going out in a War...I don't know how many here have. I've had family members, but I have no personal experience. So, when I read something like Does it Matter or even in some cases Lord of the Rings it's a way to see how life was like for the soldiers in World War I. I can experience something and connect with events where I wasn't even born yet. And that is truly effective writing..when you can get across to your readers and have them, in a sense, at least understand how things really were.
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12-22-2006, 11:40 AM | #10 | |
A Mere Boggart
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12-23-2006, 08:25 AM | #11 |
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i always wondered: when frodo pasted into the west... was that sort of suicide? a metaphor for suicide? because to me it seems to be like that.
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12-23-2006, 09:38 AM | #12 | ||
Eagle of the Star
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Frodo passed into the west by the express gift of Arwen, sanctioned by Gandalf as representative of the powers that be. This was done to redress his wounds and as a reward
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12-23-2006, 09:56 AM | #13 | ||
Cryptic Aura
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That was the idea behind my question, that the cauldron matters. There are many writers who, like Tolkien, suffered the loss of a parent in childhood and that loss works its way into their writing. It's a fascinating topic that cannot be easily dismissed simply by saying the writers use their own personal experience. There's something about writing and recovery. And reading and recovery. And story.
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12-23-2006, 12:34 PM | #14 |
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The direct reason for Frodo's PTSD would, I agree, be simply cause and effect. If it is necessary to the plot to have someone stabbed, you logically have that someone feeling the effects of a blade in their body, blood leaking out, and the physical issues that follow. Similarly, if you put someone through what Frodo went through... you get someone turn out much like Frodo.
Which does not mean it cannot have been therapeutic for Tolkien to write it, in some form. To know what something is like, it generally helps to have either experienced or observed it. Whether Tolkien experienced PTSD, I have seen no evidence yet, but he would have had to have observed it firsthand. And if it had affected him, either personally or through those around him, which is likely, it's the sort of thing that would easily need some exorcising. The importance of speaking of a trauma in order to recover from it is a generally acknowledged fact, I would say. How much actual talking about PTSD would have gone on in Tolkien's generation? Probably little enough, I'm guessing, that he would still feel, perhaps subconsciously, a relief in recounting it vicariously through Frodo.
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12-23-2006, 01:38 PM | #15 | |
A Mere Boggart
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Tolkien did suffer from bouts of depression through his adult life, but I've not read anything to suggest that he had a major disorder as a result of being at war. He may not have experienced any trauma himself, we don't know...but he did experience extreme grief with the loss of his best friends Gilson and Smith.
I think that having been through the horror of that war Tolkien couldn't really write of suffering in anything other than an horrific way. His heroes don't come all home holding the head of their mortal enemy, rippling with muscles and with a girl in their arms like so many cliched fantasies of the later twentieth century. They come home quietened and chastened and even totally broken. Just like those who came home from the trenches. And they called WWI The War To End All Wars, but it wasn't, as the sons (and daughters) of these veterans were caught up in another 21 years later. The Long Defeat. Anyway. You can see a similar writing of suffering and horror in work by others who had been to war. Mervyn Peake's Gormenghast has the ghosts of his experience entering the concentration camps during the liberation. I wonder what there might be in Narnia or Winnie The Pooh (Lewis and AA Milne were also caught up in war). The other point to remember is that Tolkien was extremely proud of his war service, as was Lewis. He may have shown how heroes came home broken, but he does not denigrate them or exploit their suffering in the name of Art. Note how his fallen are given all due honour and respect, his bad guys given a chance to be forgiven. Nobody who dies seems to be there to be a cipher towards plot building. Here's a quote from The Hobbit: Quote:
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12-23-2006, 04:12 PM | #16 |
Eagle of the Star
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Tolkien experienced a good deal of the horrors of the war, as noted in his biography, such as decaying bodies, horribly torn, with dreadful eyes with other delicacies, such as rats, on top. I was surprised to see the extent to which he suffered from disease and disability during the war. According to the Hammond and Scull Chronology, on 27th of October 1916, in Beauval, her reports sick with a temperature of 39 degrees. Up until 16th of November he goes through 5 hospitals, and afterwards, up to 15th of July 1919, when he is discharged, he goes through (as I counted) no less than 20 medical check ups. Over the course of almost three years, he has experienced trench fever, repeated attacks of high fever, headaches, debility and pain in the arms and legs, weakness, poor appetite, "20 to 100 percent unfit", gastritis, etc. In 11th of November he is informed by the Ministry of Pensions that he eligible for the maximum disabled rate. This long torture of diseases, combined with loss of friends to the shrapnells or influenza must have affected him deeply during this period, when he starts writing poems, The fall of Gondolin, essays on elvish language, Of Turin or Ainulindale, which represent some of the most important pillars of Silmarillion, the one work that will defines his creations and permeates even LotR. Though, like Lal, I haven't found direct evidence of ptsd, he did experience a lot of traumas, phisical or otherwise, which have affected his sensibility and art.
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12-23-2006, 04:42 PM | #17 | |
Laconic Loreman
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Then the problem came taking these soldiers who went through horrors and bringing them back into a society where there was no more war, and just trying to find jobs and ways to integrate them back into society. Soon Europe was spun into a huge economic depression, far greater than the one experienced in the U.S. Eventhough if it doesn't appear like Tolkien suffered from PTSD, I completely agree that one cannot go unaffected by their experience and trials of World War 1...and that did have an effect that shows in their stories. I was discussing a bit about this in another thread, when someone was wondering why Lord of the Rings doesn't have the 'true idea' of 'the hero.' In which case I argued that it does have the 'true hero.' The true hero is not the cliched stuff lal talks about that you see in Hollywood movies...but the true hero are ordinary people, who make their mistakes, but try and accomplish extraordinary deeds. Whether they do fail or succeed the trials and experieces they went through; they don't come back as Lal puts it: His heroes don't come all home holding the head of their mortal enemy, rippling with muscles and with a girl in their arms like so many cliched fantasies of the later twentieth century. They come back changed, altered, scarred, and even in extreme cases...broken. I think that is where the true greatness (at least to me) shines through in Tolkien's story. He took a story that is fantasy and he made up, yet employed a great sense of realism and believability. He makes his 'fantasy heroes' entirely identifiable and connectable to the readers...and that is what makes his stories so enjoyable to read; for me.
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12-23-2006, 08:41 PM | #18 | |
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I was very happy to read that this was not the case. They found that the men were greatly helped by putting them to work on-- ready for this?-- rabbit farms. Taking care of soft, non-threatening, small furry creatures, slowly brought the men around to being men again. Eventually they were greatly improved. (I can't say if they could return to life as they knew it before.) Back to Frodo and Sam. What, or whom, did Frodo now have, to take care of? He'd been so entirely focused on the Ring that he had nothing else in his sights. Sam, on the other hand, was taking care of Frodo. Constantly. I think it's very significant that Bilbo AND Frodo went west. Frodo needed someone to care for. Bilbo was it.
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12-24-2006, 02:11 AM | #19 | ||
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12-24-2006, 08:03 AM | #20 |
Laconic Loreman
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Here's the poem I was talking about...somebody has kindly pointed me in the right direction. It was written by Sigfried Sasson...I notice that I butchered it from my poor memory, but this should do it justice.
Does it matter?--losing your legs?... For people will always be kind, And you need not show that you mind When the others come in after hunting To gobble their muffins and eggs. Does it matter?--losing your sight?... There’s such splendid work for the blind; And people will always be kind, As you sit on the terrace remembering And turning your face to the light. Do they matter?--those dreams from the pit?... You can drink and forget and be glad, And people won’t say that you’re mad; For they’ll know you’ve fought for your country And no one will worry a bit.
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12-24-2006, 03:13 PM | #21 | |
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Probably. I'm at a loss for words, Bb, to pursue what you are suggesting. Care to explicate a little bit? Your implications are intriguing, but my first tendency is to go Jungian, and I'm not sure that's what you mean. |
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12-24-2006, 05:31 PM | #22 | |
Dead Serious
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In Tolkien's original plot outlines, I think, there was a gaier, less shocked Frodo post-Mount Doom, but I'm fairly sure that from the original draft of the post-Mt. Doom chapters that he exhibited most of his PTSD traits. Someone who has the book handy and/or actually remembers it in better detail may want to correct me, depending.
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12-25-2006, 03:44 AM | #23 | ||||
Spirit of the Lonely Star
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I've always had a strong interest in trying to understand how and why Frodo left the Shire for the West. There were a number of early discussions on this topic on the Downs. Lal has provided links to some of these, but there were others, even earlier, like Frodo's Sacrifice.
First, I have to admit I have a bias that stems from the way I look at history. And, on some level—perhaps in some alternate universe of my own making, I see the Legendarium not merely as a faerie story, but as an early history of our own world. It’s become very popular among some historians to interpret particular individuals in psychological terms. That approach can be helpful, but if applied too indiscriminately merely "reduces" an individual's accomplishments down to the lowest common denominator: minimizing personal volition and the ideas that lie behind a particular action and instead representing the accomplishments as merely a knee jerk reaction generated by a specific psychological disorder or bent. (Certain studies of Martin Luther, for example, are guilty of this.) With Frodo, we’re not talking about questioning his overall accomplishments. Most readers would agree that Frodo made a “free” choice to bear the Ring. Whatever elements may have played a role in this decision (and there are certain providential and/or psychological elements suggested at the Council of Elrond), few readers would question Frodo’s personal determination to destroy the Ring so it could not hurt his beloved Shire. The real question of psychological motive comes in when trying to assess his reasons for departing from the Havens. Certainly, many of Frodo’s reactions after he came home to the Shire were similar to those described in classic PTSD. And it’s hard not to think that Tolkien’s experiences in the war and/or what he went through as an orphan had something to do with this ability to portray loss and grieving. Like Lal, I’ve had a personal loss that made me empathize with Frodo. Way back in the eighties, our seven month old daughter died of SIDS. In the year that followed that loss, I strongly identified with the grieving and guilt that characterized Frodo in the final pages of LotR: the feeling that nothing could ever be the same again and that things were totally out of control. Still, even from that perspective, I am not comfortable saying psychological factors were the only, or even the chief reason, why Frodo chose to leave the Shire and sail West. Frodo’s “hurting” was one element driving him West, as well as his need to be near Bilbo. But his basic nature and the entire journey he’d been through also played a part. In one real sense, he had simply gone beyond what the Shire had to offer. One of the strongest pieces of evidence in this regard is what CT records in Sauron Defeated. According to CT, long before Tolkien decided to portray Frodo as a “broken” survivor, he had already made two critical decisions about the ending of the story, which he recorded in several different outlines and drafts. Frodo would not be able to destroy the Ring, and Frodo would sail West: Quote:
Formendacil makes one interesting comment in response to Littlemanpoet's reference to the "consciously shell-shocked Frodo in the revision". : Quote:
Even in the initial draft “B”, Frodo’s active role is little changed. It’s only in the final revisions of that draft that we get a very different picture: Quote:
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12-25-2006, 03:43 PM | #24 |
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Two additional perspectives have come to mind on this. Excellent, post, Child, by the way.
First, there is a paradigm of mythic legend such that the hero of the story moves from isolation to community by means of the hero's adventures. The fascinating thing about this is that Frodo, who at the beginning of the story is described as being used to isolation, (an orphan, and then only adopted heir to an isolated old hobbit), does not achieve community at the end of the story. The Ring's effects on him exacerbate his isolation. In terms of this thread, the Ring, and the features of shell-shock or PTSD, keep him from being able to go back to the Shire and be part of it. What strikes me is that Tolkien has prepared us for this at many points throughout the story. Frodo tells Sam that the Shire may be saved, but not for him. But running counter to that persepective is the Elvishness of Frodo. As Child has implied in her post just before this one, Frodo does not fit with hobbits for he has graduated, after a fashion, from hobbit-hood. He has become a sort of Elf; not literally, of course, but his emotional, psychic, and spiritual natures tend toward Elvishness instead of hobbitishness. So he is isolated from fellow hobbits, by and large, but those same isolating factors seem to bring him into community with Elves; and his final companions are a fellow Ring-bearer hobbit who has experienced just as much isolation and Elven community, an Istari, and some of the greatest Elves ever to walk the shores of Arda. Thus, it almost .... almost, mind you .... appears that those things that seem to grind him down and make his Middle Earth life insufferable, are the very things that make it possible for him to join a higher community that lives at a level that hobbits can't even imagine. Just so, 'the pain that he feels and the suffering he has endured, becomes the very stuff of his healing', as it were.... |
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