Mouth of Sauron's helmet insciptions - The Barrow-Downs Discussion Forum

The Might · 12-17-2006, 05:25 PM

Does anyone know what those strange markings on his helmet mean?
I have looked on the net, but was only able to find partially decifred answers...maybe someone here knows it.

Captain Grishnahk · 12-18-2006, 08:14 AM

They do, in fact, mean somthing. Because on the behind the scenes they were showing the alphabet used to put Mordor markings onto Grond. I'm sure they used the same thing on this guy's helmet... I'll look into it.

cap

ninja91 · 12-18-2006, 10:59 AM

Last time I heard they were not only runes of black sorcery but also a kind of pact that the Mouth had made with Sauron to serve only him and to speak his will. Hope that is helpful.

The Might · 12-18-2006, 05:09 PM

Yes, I think I read somewhere as well that the inscription has something to do with Sauron, but I wasn't sure what exactly.
All I know so far is that he has the words "LAMMEN GORTHAUR" (Sindarin for "Voice of The Abhorred Dread") written on his helmet.
But as far as I know, there was a lot more written on it, also a type of poem perhaps...

Gothmog · 12-19-2006, 06:50 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Might

Yes, I think I read somewhere as well that the inscription has something to do with Sauron, but I wasn't sure what exactly.
All I know so far is that he has the words "LAMMEN GORTHAUR" (Sindarin for "Voice of The Abhorred Dread") written on his helmet.
But as far as I know, there was a lot more written on it, also a type of poem perhaps...

LAMMEN GORTHAUR=Voice of The Abhorred Dread= Voice of Sauron. So the inscription is really a name tag so that the Witch King or some other creature won't pick the wrong helmet

(Gorthaur was one name for Sauron during the first age. Captain Obvious?)

I've never thought of this inscription myself. Is it possible to post a picture of it here?

ninja91 · 12-19-2006, 07:38 AM

In this gruesome close up of the Mouth's helm, we clearly see these "runes" that are inscripted on his helm. Just responding to a request for a pic.

Once again, I truly believe that these words formed his pact with the Sauron, to serve him and only him. They were words of darkness that bound the Mouth of Sauron to his evil duty, and which banished him from the light. And the cuts by his mouth also I think represent his undying loyalty to his master, and his will to speak his master's words.

Captain Grishnahk · 12-19-2006, 11:41 AM

I looked at that picture above... and i see Angerthas runes. Apparently it's in a different language cause i memorized those runes and it's all jibberish in "our tongue".

The Might · 12-19-2006, 11:54 AM

I doubt that might help anyway, since I believe they have used the few words in Black Speech that are known to create a language they could use in the movies.
And another interesting thing I remembered.
Remember the scene in the movies where Sam falls from the rock near the Black Gate and Frodo comes to his rescue when they both hide underneath the Elvish cloak from 2 nasty Haradrim soldiers? I just remembered those 2 soldiers have some inscriptions on their helmets as well

ninja91 · 12-19-2006, 02:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Might

I doubt that might help anyway, since I believe they have used the few words in Black Speech that are known to create a language they could use in the movies.
And another interesting thing I remembered.
Remember the scene in the movies where Sam falls from the rock near the Black Gate and Frodo comes to his rescue when they both hide underneath the Elvish cloak from 2 nasty Haradrim soldiers? I just remembered those 2 soldiers have some inscriptions on their helmets as well

Really? I will definitely look into this!

The Might · 12-19-2006, 04:39 PM

yep, checked it again and they do have inscriptions as well
you can see them pretty good right after Sam and Frodo look at their feet from underneath the cloak.
However it only lasts 1 or 2 seconds, and it's not very easy to make out exactly what kind of runes they are or what they mean...

Captain Grishnahk · 12-21-2006, 11:04 AM

I've noticed that. I have an Easterling Action figure... i'll dig him out and examine for runes. I'll report back here.

Damrod · 12-27-2006, 03:50 PM

Heard this on a commentary track

Quote:

There's incantations of Black Speech etched into the metal around [The Mouth's] mouth and the idea being that it enhances the evil that he speaks.

That's Richard Taylor, one of the big bosses at WETA, I think. Ninja91's theory is much more interesting to me, but I'm still trying to find out what those runes actually say.

Elmo · 01-28-2007, 01:57 PM

I'm sorry I guess the Mouth of Sauron is in the extended edition not the origianl cause I can't remember him there

The Might · 01-28-2007, 02:05 PM

Yes, he's only in the extended version...
Also, very interesting there are more such places with runes then I thought
I saw a page where some fans were trying to translate what is said on the walls of the Chamber of Mazarbul...
I remember one of the things they translated was "filmed in New-Zeeland"...lol

Celegost · 03-15-2007, 01:37 PM

The writing reads:
"I am the Mouth of Sauron, Hear him speak"

The Might · 03-21-2007, 01:22 PM

I'm pretty sure there is more to that Celegost, though that could well be...
Has anyone found a site where this has been more accurately analysed?

Celegost · 03-24-2007, 09:28 AM

I read it in the "lord of the rings: weapons and warfare" which is an official companion to the film, so I'm pretty sure it's right.....

The Might · 03-25-2007, 10:33 AM

Well, possibly, but I am 100% certain there was more than that

Look HERE for example, an attempt to translate the runes clearly shows there was more there

Also, if you scroll down the page you'll come across an interesting attempt to translate the runes on Grond

Lord Halsar · 03-31-2007, 11:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ninja91

In this gruesome close up of the Mouth's helm, we clearly see these "runes" that are inscripted on his helm. Just responding to a request for a pic.

though i hate to stray off topic, was the Mouth blind? in that picture that ninja91 put out(and many other places i have seen) his helmet stretches over his eyes. i seem to recall tolkien saying something about the mouth looking about after Aragorn and the others werent fooled by frodo's mail. was this possible lack of sight just Jackson's idea, or did tolkien really write something about this... just how lofty was his helm?

Sir Kohran · 04-01-2007, 03:44 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lord Halsar

though i hate to stray off topic, was the Mouth blind? in that picture that ninja91 put out(and many other places i have seen) his helmet stretches over his eyes. i seem to recall tolkien saying something about the mouth looking about after Aragorn and the others werent fooled by frodo's mail. was this possible lack of sight just Jackson's idea, or did tolkien really write something about this... just how lofty was his helm?

I think the point of the Mouth not being able to see was just that - by then he was just a Mouth. At that point he had become so consumed by his role as communication for Sauron that he had lost all other purpose in the world and as such he could only be what Saron needed him to be.

Gothbogg the Ripper · 04-01-2007, 01:21 PM

Terrible. In the books it states that he looks at those who have come to speak with him. It was a decent helmet but let me put it like this: I'm glad that they didn't include him in the theatrical version

The Might · 04-01-2007, 04:26 PM

In the books, it is made clear the helmet did not cover his eyes, as when Aragorn looked directly into his eyes, the Mouth of Sauron was really afraid.
So this is no idea of Tolkien's, just another PJ invention. The idea is that he could see with the help of dark magic, and so didn't need normal sight anymore. I think it makes pretty little sense, as the Mouth was after all only a Black Numenorean.

ninja91 · 04-01-2007, 06:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Might

The idea is that he could see with the help of dark magic, and so didn't need normal sight anymore. I think it makes pretty little sense, as the Mouth was after all only a Black Numenorean.

Well, Sauron did teach this Black Numenorean evil sorcery, so who really knows what he was capable of?

And I am talking about the Mouth of Sauron in the books, so dont bring up his filmed decapitation!

Lord Halsar · 04-02-2007, 05:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ninja91

Well, Sauron did teach this Black Numenorean evil sorcery, so who really knows what he was capable of?

And I am talking about the Mouth of Sauron in the books, so dont bring up his filmed decapitation!

True. Someone with such an influence over them (especially one as strong as Sauron's) would definateley have learned something of the sort.
but i do wonder what Tolkien's idea of the Mouth's helmet was?

ninja91 · 04-02-2007, 07:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lord Halsar

True. Someone with such an influence over them (especially one as strong as Sauron's) would definateley have learned something of the sort.
but i do wonder what Tolkien's idea of the Mouth's helmet was?

I dont know how much this answers your question, but in many older illustrations the Mouth of Sauron is indeed wearing a helm, but with a visor-thing on it so he could see.

Or did he wear anything at all? Possibly he painted his face black along with evil sorcerous runes?

Elfchick7 · 04-03-2007, 12:42 PM

I know that the movie Mouth of Sauron didn't really fit Sauron's description him but I get such a kick out of the character in both the movie and the books. I think that that PJ made him blind to emphasize the contradiction of his character. He takes himself sooooo seriously and yet he really is nothing more than a mouth.

Another interesting thing is that although the movie Mouth does not have eyes, he recognizes Aragron and Gandalf immediately. So in a sense he still does have that moment of intense eye contact with Aragorn but it is in a much more figurative way. He seems to be searching Aragorn's very soul; searching for a weakness that he could use to his advantage.

Creepy *shudders* The character in the books is much more intense. I found the movie character to be - forgive me - funny

12-17-2006, 05:25 PM	#1
The Might Guard of the Citadel Join Date: Dec 2006 Location: Oxon Posts: 2,205	Mouth of Sauron's helmet insciptions Does anyone know what those strange markings on his helmet mean? I have looked on the net, but was only able to find partially decifred answers...maybe someone here knows it. __________________ “The invisible and the non-existent look very much alike.” Delos B. McKown

12-18-2006, 08:14 AM	#2
Captain Grishnahk Wight Join Date: Sep 2005 Posts: 106	They do, in fact, mean somthing. Because on the behind the scenes they were showing the alphabet used to put Mordor markings onto Grond. I'm sure they used the same thing on this guy's helmet... I'll look into it. cap __________________ "Faithless is he who says farewell when the road darkens." --J.R.R. Tolkien

12-18-2006, 05:09 PM	#4
The Might Guard of the Citadel Join Date: Dec 2006 Location: Oxon Posts: 2,205	Yes, I think I read somewhere as well that the inscription has something to do with Sauron, but I wasn't sure what exactly. All I know so far is that he has the words "LAMMEN GORTHAUR" (Sindarin for "Voice of The Abhorred Dread") written on his helmet. But as far as I know, there was a lot more written on it, also a type of poem perhaps... __________________ “The invisible and the non-existent look very much alike.” Delos B. McKown

12-19-2006, 11:41 AM	#7
Captain Grishnahk Wight Join Date: Sep 2005 Posts: 106	I looked at that picture above... and i see Angerthas runes. Apparently it's in a different language cause i memorized those runes and it's all jibberish in "our tongue". __________________ "Faithless is he who says farewell when the road darkens." --J.R.R. Tolkien

12-19-2006, 11:54 AM	#8
The Might Guard of the Citadel Join Date: Dec 2006 Location: Oxon Posts: 2,205	I doubt that might help anyway, since I believe they have used the few words in Black Speech that are known to create a language they could use in the movies. And another interesting thing I remembered. Remember the scene in the movies where Sam falls from the rock near the Black Gate and Frodo comes to his rescue when they both hide underneath the Elvish cloak from 2 nasty Haradrim soldiers? I just remembered those 2 soldiers have some inscriptions on their helmets as well __________________ “The invisible and the non-existent look very much alike.” Delos B. McKown

12-19-2006, 04:39 PM	#10
The Might Guard of the Citadel Join Date: Dec 2006 Location: Oxon Posts: 2,205	yep, checked it again and they do have inscriptions as well you can see them pretty good right after Sam and Frodo look at their feet from underneath the cloak. However it only lasts 1 or 2 seconds, and it's not very easy to make out exactly what kind of runes they are or what they mean... __________________ “The invisible and the non-existent look very much alike.” Delos B. McKown

12-21-2006, 11:04 AM	#11
Captain Grishnahk Wight Join Date: Sep 2005 Posts: 106	I've noticed that. I have an Easterling Action figure... i'll dig him out and examine for runes. I'll report back here. __________________ "Faithless is he who says farewell when the road darkens." --J.R.R. Tolkien

01-28-2007, 01:57 PM	#13
Elmo Pittodrie Poltergeist Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: trying to find that warm and winding lane again Posts: 633	I'm sorry I guess the Mouth of Sauron is in the extended edition not the origianl cause I can't remember him there __________________ As Beren looked into her eyes within the shadows of her hair, The trembling starlight of the skies he saw there mirrored shimmering.

01-28-2007, 02:05 PM	#14
The Might Guard of the Citadel Join Date: Dec 2006 Location: Oxon Posts: 2,205	Yes, he's only in the extended version... Also, very interesting there are more such places with runes then I thought I saw a page where some fans were trying to translate what is said on the walls of the Chamber of Mazarbul... I remember one of the things they translated was "filmed in New-Zeeland"...lol __________________ “The invisible and the non-existent look very much alike.” Delos B. McKown

03-15-2007, 01:37 PM	#15
Celegost Pile O'Bones Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: Hobbiton Posts: 23	The writing reads: "I am the Mouth of Sauron, Hear him speak" __________________ From the ashes a fire shall be woken, A light from the shadows shall spring; Renewed shall be blade that was broken, The crownless again shall be king.

03-21-2007, 01:22 PM	#16
The Might Guard of the Citadel Join Date: Dec 2006 Location: Oxon Posts: 2,205	I'm pretty sure there is more to that Celegost, though that could well be... Has anyone found a site where this has been more accurately analysed? __________________ “The invisible and the non-existent look very much alike.” Delos B. McKown

03-24-2007, 09:28 AM	#17
Celegost Pile O'Bones Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: Hobbiton Posts: 23	I read it in the "lord of the rings: weapons and warfare" which is an official companion to the film, so I'm pretty sure it's right..... __________________ From the ashes a fire shall be woken, A light from the shadows shall spring; Renewed shall be blade that was broken, The crownless again shall be king.

03-25-2007, 10:33 AM	#18
The Might Guard of the Citadel Join Date: Dec 2006 Location: Oxon Posts: 2,205	Well, possibly, but I am 100% certain there was more than that Look HERE for example, an attempt to translate the runes clearly shows there was more there Also, if you scroll down the page you'll come across an interesting attempt to translate the runes on Grond __________________ “The invisible and the non-existent look very much alike.” Delos B. McKown

04-01-2007, 01:21 PM	#21
Gothbogg the Ripper Wight Join Date: Sep 2004 Location: Southend,U.K Posts: 113	Terrible. In the books it states that he looks at those who have come to speak with him. It was a decent helmet but let me put it like this: I'm glad that they didn't include him in the theatrical version __________________ Thanks for abandoning me for three years guys. I really enjoyed being a total outcast.

04-01-2007, 04:26 PM	#22
The Might Guard of the Citadel Join Date: Dec 2006 Location: Oxon Posts: 2,205	In the books, it is made clear the helmet did not cover his eyes, as when Aragorn looked directly into his eyes, the Mouth of Sauron was really afraid. So this is no idea of Tolkien's, just another PJ invention. The idea is that he could see with the help of dark magic, and so didn't need normal sight anymore. I think it makes pretty little sense, as the Mouth was after all only a Black Numenorean. __________________ “The invisible and the non-existent look very much alike.” Delos B. McKown

04-03-2007, 12:42 PM	#26
Elfchick7 Wight Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: In the Greenwood Posts: 201	I know that the movie Mouth of Sauron didn't really fit Sauron's description him but I get such a kick out of the character in both the movie and the books. I think that that PJ made him blind to emphasize the contradiction of his character. He takes himself sooooo seriously and yet he really is nothing more than a mouth. Another interesting thing is that although the movie Mouth does not have eyes, he recognizes Aragron and Gandalf immediately. So in a sense he still does have that moment of intense eye contact with Aragorn but it is in a much more figurative way. He seems to be searching Aragorn's very soul; searching for a weakness that he could use to his advantage. Creepy shudders The character in the books is much more intense. I found the movie character to be - forgive me - funny __________________ "Yesterday is history. Tommorow is a mystery. Today is a gift from God. That's why it's called the PRESENT!"