LOTR Prequel

[doug*platypus]

It appears that New Line Cinema has the rights to make a movie of not only The Hobbit, but also another prequel to the LOTR trilogy:

Several years ago, Mark Ordesky told us that New Line have rights to make not just The Hobbit but a second "LOTR prequel", covering the events leading up to those depicted in LOTR.

So, what do Barrow Downers think could or should be shown in this prequel? Should it be shot at the same time as The Hobbit and intercut, thus making two Hobbit movies, or should it stand alone? Should it be set in the Third Age, the Second or even the First? Who should its main characters be? Or is it simply sacrilege to write a new Tolkien-inspired screenplay?

My vote would be for a movie possibly titled The Rings of Power to show the forging of the great rings, Sauron's appearance amongst the elven smiths as Annatar, his forging of the One Ring, and all subsequent events down to the Last Alliance. The Last Alliance scenes could even possibly borrow footage from the prologue for consistency, and simply add to it. The main characters would be Sauron, Celebrimbor, Galadriel, Gil-Galad, Elendil and Isildur. For the last four I would hope that the actors from the trilogy would be brought back on board for the project. The main problem with showing these events would be the need to contain all the Akallabêth within the movie. It would thus have to have four parts, all pretty speedily worked through:

1. The forging of the Great Rings. Sauron as Annatar.

2. The forging of the One Ring. Sauron's war upon the elves of Eregion. Death of Celebrimbor.

3. Sauron's capture and the Akallabêth.

4. Formation of the Last Alliance and the defeat of Sauron.

It would be one long movie, but one I would love to see! Your thoughts?

[Essex]

If it comes AFTER the Hobbit then I see it as showing what happened to Gandalf during the Hobbit and after leading up to the Great Years. i.e.

2941
Thorin Oakenshield and Gandalf visit Bilbo in the Shire. Bilbo meets Sméagol-Gollum and finds the Ring. The White Council meets; Saruman agrees to an attack on Dol Guldur, since he now wishes to prevent Sauron from searching the River. Sauron having made his plans abandons Dol Guldur. The Battle of the Five Armies in Dale. Death of Thorin II. Bard of Esgaroth slays Smaug. Dáin of the Iron Hills becomes King under the Mountain (Dáin II).

2942
Bilbo returns to the Shire with the Ring. Sauron returns in secret to Mordor. 2944 Bard rebuilds Dale and becomes King. Gollum leaves the Mountains and begins his search for the 'thief of the Ring.

2948
Théoden son of Thengel. King of Rohan. born.

2949
Gandalf and Balin visit Bilbo in the Shire.

2950
Finduilas, daughter of Adrahil of Dol Amroth, born.

2951
Sauron declares himself openly and gathers power in Mordor. He begins the rebuilding of Barad-dûr. Gollum turns towards Mordor. Sauron sends three of the Nazgûl to reoccupy Dol Guldur. Elrond reveals to 'Estel' his true name and ancestry, and delivers to him the shards of Narsil. Arwen, newly returned from Lórien, meets Aragorn in the woods of Imladris. Aragorn goes out into the Wild.

2953
Last meeting of the White Council. They debate the Rings. Saruman feigns that he has discovered that the One Ring has passed down Anduin to the Sea. Saruman withdraws to Isengard, which he takes as his own, and fortifies it Being jealous and afraid of Gandalf he sets spies to watch all his movements; and notes his interest in the Shire. He soon begins to keep agents in Bree and the Southfarthing.

2954
Mount Doom bursts into flame again. The last inhabitants of Ithilien flee over Anduin.

2956
Aragorn meets Gandalf and their friendship begins.

2957-80
Aragorn undertakes his great journeys and errantries. As Thorongil he serves in disguise both Thengel of Rohan and Ecthelion II of Gondor.

2968
Birth of Frodo.

2976
Denethor weds Finduilas of Dol Amroth.

2977
Bain son of Bard becomes King of Dale.

2978
Birth of Boromir son of Denethor II.

2980
Aragorn enters Lórien and there meets again Arwen Undómiel. Aragorn gives her the ring of Barahir. and they plight their troth upon the hill of Cerin Amroth. About this time Gollum reaches the confines of Mordor and becomes acquainted with Shelob. Théoden becomes King of Rohan.

2983
Faramir son of Denethor born. Birth of Samwise.

2984
Death of Ecthelion II. Denethor II becomes Steward of Gondor.

2988
Finduilas dies young.

2989
Balin leaves Erebor and enters Moria.

2991
Éomer Éomund's son born in Rohan.

2994
Balin perishes, and the dwarf-colony is destroyed.

2995
Éowyn sister of Éomer born.

_c._ 3000
The shadow of Mordor lengthens. Saruman dares to use the _palantír _of Orthanc, but becomes ensnared by Sauron, who has the Ithil Stone. He becomes a traitor to the Council. His spies report that the Shire is being closely guarded by the Rangers.

3001
Bilbo's farewell feast Gandalf suspects his ring to be the One Ring. The guard on the Shire is doubled. Gandalf seeks for news of Gollum and calls on the help of Aragorn.

They could show a bit of artistic licence in having all the White Council parts, even though a few of these came before the Hobbit.

They could use artistic livcence to show the hunt for Gollum happening before Bilbo's party too.

3009
Gandalf and Aragorn renew their hunt for Gollum at intervals during the next eight years, searching in the vales of Anduin, Mirkwood, and Rhovanion to the confines of Mordor. At some time during these years Gollum himself ventured into Mordor, and was captured by Sauron. Elrond sends for Arwen. and she returns to Imladris; the Mountains and all lands eastward are becoming dangerous.

3017
Gollum is released from Mordor. He is taken by Aragorn in the Dead Marshes, and brought to Thranduil in Mirkwood. Gandalf visits Minas Tirith and reads the scroll of Isildur

So plenty to fit in the prequel! Also, they could show 'back history' of the events surrounding Sauron in Dol Guldur.....

[Macalaure]

Originally Posted by doug*platypus

1. The forging of the Great Rings. Sauron as Annatar.

2. The forging of the One Ring. Sauron's war upon the elves of Eregion. Death of Celebrimbor.

3. Sauron's capture and the Akallabêth.

4. Formation of the Last Alliance and the defeat of Sauron.

It would be one long movie, but one I would love to see! Your thoughts?

One I'd absolutely love to see!

Though it might be too much material for one movie, not to mention all the time jumps. But I could easily imagine a movie which covers 3 and 4 (starting about the time of the death of Tar-Palantír?). The story of the rings would then be delivered in a kind of flashback, maybe told by Gil-Galad.

How is the situation of the rights for the Akallabêth? It's part of the Silmarillion after all...

Originally Posted by Essex

So plenty to fit in the prequel! Also, they could show 'back history' of the events surrounding Sauron in Dol Guldur.....

To be honest, I don't think what happens between the Hobbit and LotR is enough to make a whole movie. We have the stories of Saruman and the White Council, of Aragorn and of Gollum, all very interesting, but I fail to see a real plot and a climax. It would be more like the filmmakers picking at the bones of the things that are left and at their disposal and making it into a movie just for the sake of making another one. I don't think it would have the slightest chance to keep up with the other four movies.

[Thinlómien]

I don't doubt the film would be cool, but I can't find a coherent plot in it. There's also, as Mac points out, maybe too much in it (maybe you could somehow take Akallabêth out?) and too much time jumps. I have no doubt that a good screenplay writer could handle it, but it would be difficult, and there would be compromises.

[The Saucepan Man]

Originally Posted by Macalaure

How is the situation of the rights for the Akallabêth? It's part of the Silmarillion after all...

My understanding is that Zaentz acquired only the film rights for LotR and The Hobbit. If any film is to be made based on the Silmarillion or any other material, it would, I believe, the rights would need to be acquired from the Tolkien Estate.

Originally Posted by Macalure

To be honest, I don't think what happens between the Hobbit and LotR is enough to make a whole movie. We have the stories of Saruman and the White Council, of Aragorn and of Gollum, all very interesting, but I fail to see a real plot and a climax. It would be more like the filmmakers picking at the bones of the things that are left and at their disposal and making it into a movie just for the sake of making another one. I don't think it would have the slightest chance to keep up with the other four movies.

I thoroughly agree. There is no central plot. Merely a series of events linking two tales.

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Whatever, I can tell you that I would not like to see anything which is "made-up", I mean things which were not written by Tolkien here, there or yonder (who will answer correctly where this formulation comes from is going to win a prize ). What I mean is, that the White councils, Balin's entering the Moria etc. are not this case. It would be completely made up and I have to confess that the reason why I hold against it is out of the fear what will they made of it, or that they could screw up all the characters. Also how for example the White Council looked like is left more or less to out imagination now, and it would not be nice to force us any image (because after airing the movie, it will soon became canonical to think about White Council looking that way as in film, as well as now many people imagine for example people of the Fellowship to look like in the film. Okay, from what I now said I realize that it seems like I'd rather not have any movie at all. Never mind then. ) I think the idea of forging of the Rings and then up to Akkalabeth might be nice, if it were possible. Or, maybe, they could make this like a documentary with cutscenes about this and that, like: Celebrimbor: "Hi, who are you?" Sauron: "I'm Annatar." - cut - "ASH NAZG DURBATULUK..." - cut - "Give them to me, Celebrimbie!" - "Never!" - cut - cut Celebrimbor in half - cut - Númenoreans arrive - etc... All with commentary, of course (after all, this is a document)

[Nogrod]

Originally Posted by doug*platypus

1. The forging of the Great Rings. Sauron as Annatar.

2. The forging of the One Ring. Sauron's war upon the elves of Eregion. Death of Celebrimbor.

3. Sauron's capture and the Akallabêth.

4. Formation of the Last Alliance and the defeat of Sauron.

This would be great, but it would take at least a trilogy (and we would be whining again how this and that important thing was missing!).

And let's face it. This would be a movie-series for the hardcore fans, not to the wider public that wishes more of Harry Potter and Spider Man (with the doll-faced celebrity actors filling the main roles). To make such an investment as the LotR-trilogy, there should be the commercial assurance that it would sell more than enough. With this scheme there is none.

So if anyone makes it, it will be 1/100'th of a budget and so on... you know how that looks.

[Naria]

And there's this...

WELLINGTON, New Zealand (AP) - Peter Jackson says he will not be directing a movie based on J.R.R. Tolkien's novel "The Hobbit" or a planned prequel to "The Lord of the Rings."

I just don't know if anyone could even do a better(or same?) job as PJ did

[Fordim Hedgethistle]

Let's face it guys....any prequel to LotR which is going to have any hope of making it to the big screen is going to need something with guranteed audience appeal and draw power. So look for something like:

The Chronicles of Legolas Three Films! Eleven Hours! All the Wild Stunts Anyone could ask for! And, as an added bonus, Great Amounts of Plot Commentary so you needn't worry about Getting Confused!

[Macalaure]

Originally Posted by Nogrod

This would be great, but it would take at least a trilogy (and we would be whining again how this and that important thing was missing!).

You're right, and it might not have enough appeal to draw audience for three films. Though, concerning LotR, I was more bothered by what had been changed and didn't fit than by what had been left out. After all, better to pick a few things and do them properly than to do everything a little.

Originally Posted by Nogrod

And let's face it. This would be a movie-series for the hardcore fans, not to the wider public that wishes more of Harry Potter and Spider Man (with the doll-faced celebrity actors filling the main roles). To make such an investment as the LotR-trilogy, there should be the commercial assurance that it would sell more than enough. With this scheme there is none.

Would it really just be for hardcore fans? It can't be denied that the PJ trilogy sparked some interest in Middle-earth, even with people who never even thought about touching the books after watching. And let's take the Drowning of Númenor: A magnificent villain, a magnificent semi-villain. intrigue and suspense, Isildur and Anárion for the teenage girls, battles and almost-battles - and the drowning itself! Even without hobbits and wizards (and humour), I think it would attract a sufficient audience, for one film at any rate.

[Nogrod]

You make a compelling case Macalaure, but unfortunately in these times of re-versioning James Bond, Sin City, Star Wars, Erroll Flynn's pirate movies, 50's grand Rome stories etc. we need to have something that is already familiar with the fans or having a marketing machine (via McDonalds etc) to make it thus or taking in the hottest nice-guys and primadonnas... Sorry, I don't like to sound like a cynic, but I just can't help it.

LotR was a risk taken and it made a profit, but who would invest millions to try another as there are easier ones to gain money like putting Julia Roberts and Hugh Grant to yet another romantic comedy...

[Macalaure]

LotR was a risk taken and turned out a major success. Because of that, I think, any other movie to come with the name Tolkien on it will have it much easier.
It is very similar to the Star Wars Prequels after all. The general audience has seen the Fellowship Prologue and the much-repeated shot of Isildur cutting the Ring. Like with Star Wars, they already know how it's going to end. And everybody already knows the name Sauron and perhaps even liked to have seen more of him than an eye. In this movie we would finally get to see him as an actual character (and maybe even the central one). And Second-Age-Sauron could be one of the most formidable diabolic villains of movie history.
I'm not only argueing from a "Tolkien fan who wants to see his favourite stories on screen" point of view. I really think this is material for a darn good and profitable film.

[goldfinger]

I would love to see either the destruction of Arnor or the War of the Dwarves and Orcs.

[Rune Son of Bjarne]

Although I would love to see "The Rings of Power" I doubt that it would be possible to make it into one movie withour making some seriouse changes in events, futher more it might be a bit to nerdy to be proffitable. Unfortunately money runs the show. . .


I actually think that Essex's sugestion to a movie could prove doable. . .It would appeal to people who watched LotR and found it a bit interesting, it would not be too large a project for one movie. It could possibly be made in connection to The Hobbit (I know nothing about movie production)

[Lush]

The Silm (?)

They could just concentrate on Beren and Luthien... That would be exciting. I'd probably eat through an entire tub of popcorn, and never notice.

[Fordim Hedgethistle]

It just occured to me what the "prequel" (i.e. non-Hobbit-stuff) will be...

It will follow the adventures of Aragorn as he meets Gandalf, learns of his true heritage and rides around Middle Earth having a series of adventures (under assumed identities) in Rohan, Gondor, the Shire and elsewhere.

They'll do a "growth of the hero" thing with action and romance (remember Arwen?), and a bunch of struggling-with-father-figure stuff in relation to Elrond and Gandalf. It will be sort of like King Arthur (y'know, wizard comes for regular guy who has to learn to be a king). Guarantee you it ends with Aragorn fighting his way through unimaginable dangers in order to make it to Bree on time to meet with some Hobbits.

Oh, and I'll bet you 10 dollars right now that his faithful companion/sidekick throughout it all is Legolas.

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Originally Posted by Fordim Hedgethistle

It just occured to me what the "prequel" (i.e. non-Hobbit-stuff) will be...

It will follow the adventures of Aragorn as he meets Gandalf, learns of his true heritage and rides around Middle Earth having a series of adventures (under assumed identities) in Rohan, Gondor, the Shire and elsewhere.

They'll do a "growth of the hero" thing with action and romance (remember Arwen?), and a bunch of struggling-with-father-figure stuff in relation to Elrond and Gandalf. It will be sort of like King Arthur (y'know, wizard comes for regular guy who has to learn to be a king). Guarantee you it ends with Aragorn fighting his way through unimaginable dangers in order to make it to Bree on time to meet with some Hobbits.

Oh, and I'll bet you 10 dollars right now that his faithful companion/sidekick throughout it all is Legolas.

Well, I think this might be also one good point. The only downside of this is, that according to the book Aragorn should be different ages throughout the movie, which would mean not using the same handsome actor for all the scenes... but no worry, we'll make a miniature change making all of Aragorn's adventures happen in one year, and that's it... just maybe we'll preserve at the beginning a scene making a lovely little boy speaking to Elrond, and also meeting Arwen when being this young (another little change of timeline)... well, the scheme of Anakin Skywalker in the Star Wars, if you got my point...
But seriously now. The idea of prequel to LotR might make nice connection between The Hobbit and LotR if used to describe some of the adventures Gandalf mentioned at Elrond's council (tracking Gollum to Mordor and then his escape from Thranduil - this might make a nice parallel with a scene of the Hobbit film, if there will be any, where the dwarves are at Thranduil's prison as well). But I don't think there is anything which can be done to stretch this into two hours of a movie... Without making up most of the storyline, I think it is not possible to create a coherent movie with continuous story from the things in the Chronicles.

The only thing I'm afraid of is that maybe so far they haven't thought about making the movie like this... but Fordim, what if they read your post and then they decide to realize it...

[Tuor in Gondolin]

Oh, and I'll bet you 10 dollars right now that his faithful companion/sidekick throughout it all is Legolas.

And Gloin for comic relief? (Sorry about that).

[Lush]

I could definitely see the Legolas thing happening. And you know what? I'll be first in line for it.

I just hope they keep Bloom - I mean, he and I are getting married eventually, after all (yes, I'm into polyandry).

[Tar-Telperien]

Originally Posted by Macalaure

And let's take the Drowning of Númenor: A magnificent villain, a magnificent semi-villain. intrigue and suspense, Isildur and Anárion for the teenage girls, battles and almost-battles - and the drowning itself! Even without hobbits and wizards (and humour), I think it would attract a sufficient audience, for one film at any rate.

Have you ever read this? It's a long essay containing Helge Fauskanger's ideas for bringing this very story to the screen. He (and I; I've read through this several times and have some opinions of my own) think it would work extremely well as a prequel movie on its own.

And we're supported by the words of none other than Tolkien himself: "Both [The Rings of Power and the Akallabêth] are the essential background to The Hobbit and its sequel." from Letter 131

[Thinlómien]

Originally Posted by Legate of Amon Lanc

. . . not using the same handsome actor for all the scenes... . . .

Handsome?! Handsome? You call Viggo Mortensen handsome?

(My personal opinion is quite anti-viggoist however I approve his working style and dedication to his roles... But don't get me started on how bad Aragorn he is.)

Which of speaking I'd love to see different actors as Aragorn, Elrond, Arwen, Celeborn and the possible sidekick-Legolas as none of them was even close to the best imaginable in the LotR films.

[Macalaure]

Originally Posted by Tar-Telperien

Have you ever read this?

Have. I even posted that link on another thread here some time ago.

And we're supported by the words of none other than Tolkien himself: "Both [The Rings of Power and the Akallabêth] are the essential background to The Hobbit and its sequel." from Letter 131

Let's spam-mail Christopher Tolkien with it so he lets the rights go.

And welcome to the 'Downs!

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Originally Posted by Thinlómien

Handsome?! Handsome? You call Viggo Mortensen handsome?

(My personal opinion is quite anti-viggoist however I approve his working style and dedication to his roles... But don't get me started on how bad Aragorn he is.)

Which of speaking I'd love to see different actors as Aragorn, Elrond, Arwen, Celeborn and the possible sidekick-Legolas as none of them was even close to the best imaginable in the LotR films.

I never said that by "handsome actor" I mean Viggo Mortensen I didn't say "the same handsome actor as in LotR", just "the same handsome actor for all the scenes" - meaning scenes in the prequel. But being it Mortensen or whoever, I bet they would choose a "handsome" actor.
And I stick with the second part of your post - I'd also like seeing other people, but maybe they'd like to preserve continuity (meaning the same actors). Don't know why the "Aliens" series came up to my mind: the same central actor (this time possibly one Aragornish individuum) with different pals on every casting.

[Rune Son of Bjarne]

Originally Posted by Thinlómien

Handsome?! Handsome? You call Viggo Mortensen handsome?

(My personal opinion is quite anti-viggoist however I approve his working style and dedication to his roles... But don't get me started on how bad Aragorn he is.)

Which of speaking I'd love to see different actors as Aragorn, Elrond, Arwen, Celeborn and the possible sidekick-Legolas as none of them was even close to the best imaginable in the LotR films.

Personaly I am not a fan of changing actors, I find it very disturbing when I watch movies. Of course sometimes you have no choise but to change the actor.

If you ever come to Denmark you better leave your anti-viggoism behind or you will probably be lynched. (don't say bad things about the new bond film either)

[Tar-Telperien]

Originally Posted by Macalaure

Have. I even posted that link on another thread here some time ago.


Let's spam-mail Christopher Tolkien with it so he lets the rights go.

And welcome to the 'Downs!

Well that essay's awesomeness is such that it can never be linked too many times.

*tries to think up devious and elaborate schemes for obtaining the film rights*

Also, thanks for the welcome! As you can probably tell, I'm a huge Númenor fan and so have a vested interest in this idea.

[Fordim Hedgethistle]

Originally Posted by Lush

I could definitely see the Legolas thing happening. And you know what? I'll be first in line for it.

I just hope they keep Bloom - I mean, he and I are getting married eventually, after all (yes, I'm into polyandry).

Leggy-Bopper!!

[Thinlómien]

Originally Posted by Rune Son of Bjarne

If you ever come to Denmark you better leave your anti-viggoism behind or you will probably be lynched.

Thanks for the warning, I think I will try to avoid Denmark then...

[Boromir88]

Personally I think it's just money-grubbing Hollywood trying to make as much money from the name of Tolkien and LOTR that can be made. I'm tired of all these crap sequels (or prequels) based on some pretty good movies to just make more money. There seems to be a huge increase in Hollywood these days...from the Butterfly Effect 2, Save the Last Dance 2, Behind Enemy Lines 2, Rocky X (or whatever number they're on)...etc

If a movie wants to be made on The Hobbit, go right ahead, as there's at least a good story and plot line to work off of and make a movie off of. But to me the people behind this idea of a 'prequel' to the events of LOTR, are no better than the horrendous David Day, who just makes up bilge, apply the name of Tolkien to it so he can rake in a profit.