Why take a body? Why make a Ring?

[littlemanpoet]

Okay, this has been hashed through before, but I want to address it anyway.

I can see why a Man might want to have the sword that he has made be given magical (Elvish?) power.

But why would a Maia want a body? Why would a spiritual being want to confine his power to a Ring, or any other material object?

I want to stay away from any such nonsense as "Tolkien got it wrong", so let's assume he knew what he was doing and he had a reason (at least one!) for Sauron to want to have a Ring to confine his power, and that Maiar wanted to have bodies. Why? What's so great about bodies?

Are there answers within the pages of LotR? The Hobbit? The Sil? HoME? the Letters?

[Folwren]

Don't get mad at me for this, and don't quote me, either, but...

I've heard (don't necessarly believe it myself) that demons and other spirits and the like who sometimes posses people enter into a physical body so that they can interact and touch (physically and through the mind with words and feelings and such) other people and/or things. So that, more easily, they can influence what happens. Whereas, when they are mere spirits floating around, they have no anchor, no real, tangible power.

That being said, perhaps Sauron took a form so that he did have some power with the other beings of Middle-Earth? Maybe when he was a spirit, he could not interact with the inhabitants of the world half so well as he could when he had a body.

As to binding his powers into the Ring....I don't know. I believe there have been discussions here about Wizards' staffs. That they didn't need them, perse, to perform their 'magic', but it gave them something to channel their powers through. Perhaps it works the same with Sauron. Perhaps having something through which to channel his power made it easier to use said power. You know he wasn't powerless without that Ring. But we also know, that with it, his power was redoubled (or more than doubled....).

Maybe?

-- Folwren

[Raynor]

But why would a Maia want a body? Why would a spiritual being want to confine his power to a Ring, or any other material object?

Cf Silmarillion, Sauron "walked behind [Melkor] on the same ruinous path down into the Void"; Sauron must have followed Melkor's modus operandi:

Originally Posted by Notes on motives in the Silmarillion, Myths Transformed, HoME X

Melkor 'incarnated' himself (as Morgoth) permanently. He did this so as to control the hroa, the 'flesh' or physical matter of Arda. He attempted to identify himself with it. A vaster and more perilous, procedure, though of similar sort to the operations of Sauron with the Rings... But in this way Morgoth lost (or exchanged, or transmuted) the greater part of his original 'angelic' powers, of mind and spirit, while gaining a terrible grip upon the physical world.

I've heard (don't necessarly believe it myself) that demons and other spirits and the like who sometimes posses people enter into a physical body so that they can interact and touch (physically and through the mind with words and feelings and such) other people and/or things. So that, more easily, they can influence what happens.

Sauron was called the Necromancer, and he learned his skill from Melkor himself; we also have the evil elvish souls, who, after death, could attempt to inhabit other bodies, but not through the lawful ways, set by Manwe, as told in Laws and customs of the Eldar, HoME X.

Perhaps having something through which to channel his power made it easier to use said power.

From the begining, the purpose of the one ring was to 'govern' the elven rings, cf Of the rings of power, Silmarillion. Tolkien doesn't give a measure of how much his power increased through the one ring, only that it was "enhanced"; however, we are told, through Gandalf, in the Last Debate, that should Sauron recover it, his victory would be so complete "that none can foresee the end of it while this world lasts", something I doubt would have happened without the ring.

[dancing spawn of ungoliant]

An interesting topic you have there.

In Sil it says that the valar could choose whether to be without a form or pick an appearance of a male or female - or an appearance that came from their own thoughts. It also says that when the valar were without a form, even the Elves couldn't see them clearly, and that makes me assume that other races didn't possibly perceive even that much.

Now, I could imagine that when interacting with the people in Middle-earth, having a body was only practical. I don't know if it was easy to sense the presence of a vala or maia if it didn't have a visible form, and apparently it wasn't quite clear who they really were even when they had a body - take Gandalf, for example, or Sauron in his pretty form. But surely it's easier to suck up to important characters or boss people around if they can see you.

When Melkor saw that the valar were happy and blessed in their visible bodies and they enjoyed what Middle-earth had to offer, he became jealous and took a form, too. And if Melkor had a body, it seems natural that Sauron mimicked him and took one as well.

Why would a spiritual being want to confine his power to a Ring, or any other material object?

Maybe putting his powers into the Ring wasn't so much a purpose than an inevitable consequence. Again, using the Sil as a source, it says that Sauron didn't like the Elves (well, duh) and he was afraid of the Númenoreans who occasionally dropped by in Middle-Earth. He wanted to have power over all the other rings and therefore the amount of power that he put in the One Ring had to be superior to the other rings, too. Could there have been some other way to rule the other rings, then? That I don't know.


edit: cross-posted with Raynor.

[Raynor]

Concerning the shapes the valar assumed, it is stated in the Letters:

Originally Posted by Letter #212

It was because of their love of Ea, and because of the pan they had played in its making, that they wished to, and could, incarnate themselves in visible physical forms, though these were comparable to our clothes (in so far as our clothes are a personal expression) not to our bodies. Their forms were thus expressions of their persons, powers, and loves. They need not be anthropomorphic (Yavanna wife of Aule would, for instance, appear in the form of a great Tree.) But the 'habitual' shapes of the Valar, when visible or clothed, were anthropomorphic, because of their intense concern with Elves and Men.

In Sil it says that the valar could choose whether to be without a form or pick an appearance of a male or female

Apparently, they didn't have a choice over the gender of their body:

Originally Posted by Ainulindale, Silmarillion

But when they desire to clothe themselves the Valar take upon them forms some as of male and some as of female; for that difference of temper they had even from their beginning, and it is but bodied forth in the choice of each, not made by the choice, even as with us male and female may be shown by the raiment but is not made thereby.

[mormegil]

Regarding the body I agree that it was to have influence and control in the physical world.

Regarding the ring, we can easily see and know that by pouring his power into an artifact his power increased more than the original value. But why a ring? A couple ideas I had is the concept of a ring in the representation of something intimate like a marriage. Sauron had pledged himself to this cause and essentially created a marriage convenant...it's a bit of a stretch but understandable too. Also, rings are not easy to loose if they fit you and you don't take them off. Generally they are easy to guard and you always know it is on. Also it's, especially Sauron's ring, is a fairly innocuous object and doesn't immediately draw attention unto itself.

[Boromir88]

Just to point out one thing that I think is worth mentioning about Sauron taking on a 'physical body.' It appears to be a necessary thing if you want to interact or effect the physical world, you must have a body of your own. Let's take the Witch-King when he is killed for example, as Tolkien tells us in Letter 246:

'Witch King had been reduced to impotence'

If the Ring is destroyed Tolkien writes to Milton Waldman:

...if the One Ring wwas actually unmade, annihilated, then its power would be dissolved, Sauron's own being would be diminished to a vanishing point, and he would be reduced to a shadow, a mere memory of malicious will.

For another example Gimli doubts the Dead Army's weapons would have any 'bite' to them. Which I would agree with Gimli, because the Dead Army are spirits who's body has left them...with their weapon being fear, though they could not physically interact (as in stab, punch, round-house kick - whatever) since they had no bodies.

So, for Sauron to have some sort of interaction with the people on Middle-earth a physical body would be necessary. As Raynor and Spawn explain, not only for 'fighting' purposes, but also to appear fair and noble to get people to do what he wants.

As stupid as the concept of Sauron putting so much of himself into the Ring to the point where if it was destroyed he would forever remain a shadow...unable to reform again. It really wasn't something that was all that stupid:

1) The Ring could only be destroyed in the place it was made, Mount Doom, and more specifically it appeared to have to be destroyed in the Sammath Naur.

2) However you want to see the destruction of the Ring (as Eru getting involved and causing Gollum's fall, Gollum accidentally slipping...etc whatever it is). We have to realize the Ring's destruction was an act or extraordinary strength and will that Tolkien thinks only Frodo could have done during this time (that is getting the Ring to Mount Doom:

'Frodo deserved all honour because he spend every last drop of his power of will and body, and that was just sufficient to bring him to the destined point, and no further. Few others, possibly no others of his time, would have got so far. The Other Power then took over: the Writer of the Story (by which I do not mean myself), 'that one ever-present Person who is never absent and never named' (as one critic has said).~Letter 192

Not only did Sauron believe that destroying the Ring by someone's free will was impossible, Tolkien thought so as well:

I do not think that Frodo’s was a moral failure. At the last moment the pressure of the Ring would reach its maximum - impossible, I should have said, for any one to resist...~Letter 246

So, while putting pretty much all your power into one Ring, so much that if it was destroyed (or someone else mastered it) you also were essentially destroyed (though not completely) seems rather foolish. It really wasn't. Sauron was able to enhance his own power, desired to control all the Ring's of Power (to a certain extent I'd say he was successful), and the very fact that this little Ring had to be destroyed in one specific place...which to do so was beyond anyone's free will, we see it wasn't all that stupid at all.

Edit: X-posted with morm

[The Saucepan Man]

Agree with all that is said about taking on a physical body to interact with the physical world. In most cases, the Ainur retained tha ability to abandon their earthly body and revert to their natural form. My understanding however is that, the more an Ainu indulged in taking on a physical form, the greater the likelihood that it would become permanent. This, I assume, is what happened to Sauron.

As for the One Ring, while its main purpose was to gain control (via the other Rings of Power) over the Free Peoples of Middle-earth (and particularly the Elves), it also, as Boro has indicated, made Sauron practically invulnerable. Having taken on a physical body, that body could not permanently be destroyed while the One Ring remained in existence (or, if it was, he was able subsequently to rehouse his spirit in another). And given that virtually no one could willingly destroy the One Ring or master it to the exclusion of Sauron, it made him more or less invincible.

But for two brave Hobbits and a wizened proto-Hobbit with dual-personality disorder ...

[Lalwendë]

SpM is onto something here, saying that while the One Ring existed, even if his physical body was destroyed, he could maintain his power, and tha chance of being 'rehoused'. Its a very old idea and occurs in folklore, how a spirit or soul may be confined within an object instead of a body. If you want another example then I'm sure a lot of you will have read the latest Harry Potter and learned how Voldemort has maintained a semblance of immortality by doing exactly that, by containing aspects of his soul/spirit within the Horcruxes.

I think Tolkien was working from an old idea that is still inspiring wrieters today. And if you think about it, it also makes a perfect literary device - trapping the soul/spirit within an object or objects might seem foolproof (and you can imagine our Dark lord laughing at his cunning plan and going "Mua-ha-ha" at his own cleverness), but like all 'bad guys', the act of doing this actually turns out to be a fatal flaw when the hero of the story comes along.

I wonder why Sauron chose to use a gold ring - not exactly unobtrusive is it? Especially with bling-hungry Hobbits around. Yes he also wanted to control the other rings, but he could have made the One an ugly ring - the kind that leaves a green stain on the finger! Maybe that reveals something about his vanity too?

I hope that makes sense, I'm not exactly lucid right now, as I'm running an horrific fever.

[littlemanpoet]

So Maiar (such as Sauron) want bodies (at least as clothing) in order to interact in (and/or control) a material world.

And Sauron wanted a Ring in order to control a certain collection of other Rings. He also knew that Ring would be virtually impossible for anyone to destroy. However, he never expected to be destroyed himself, and never expected the Ring to be destroyed. I think that that much can be read from Gandalf's words in the Council of Elrond and other parts of LotR. That is, Sauron's and the Ring's near-invincibility are at best by-products of its making. So if Sauron didn't make the Ring with great concern for his own and the Ring's destruction, then the remaining motivation was domination of Arda. Fair enough.

Why would these Maiar be so bent on affecting material Arda? I suppose the only answer provided from our vast resources of Tolkieniana, is pride, envy, ambition and all that for the evil Maiar, and love and its related virtues for the good Maiar.

It should be pointed out that the Ring is, unless heated, unobtrusive, though made of gold. So it appears unextraordinary.

I think Folwren's speculative answer bears some consideration as well.

And much thanks to Raynor for providing the background information from the various works.

The Ring served to focus Sauron's power in terms of the other rings, but not only. There seems to be some ability to affect others from great distances, such as whole armies. Did that come from the Ring, or just from Sauron's power? Was Sauron's native power increased by the fact of the Ring? That is, let's say Sauron = 7 and the Ring = 6; does it make sense within the way LotR was sub-created that Sauron increases, by virtue of the Ring, from a 7 to a 10? ...such that even while dispossessed of the Ring, he functions effectively as a 5 (instead of the expected 7-6=1)? (the numbers are of course arbitrary and meant strictly for illustration).

[doug*platypus]

Hello again littlemanpoet and Saucepan Man! It's been a long time since I posted on The Barrow Downs, but I remember you both fondly. Thanks, Raynor for providing those quotes!

I believe that the Valar and Maiar were fascinated with the Children of Ilúvatar and took bodies to interact with them more fully, and on a more personal level. That at least would explain why they took bodies after contact had been made by Oromë with the children. As for before that, the theory that has already been expounded as to wishing to exercise control over the physical matter of Arda seems sufficient.

Interesting that these demi-gods did not wish to remain aloof from the children, but sought a peaceful co-habitation in Valinor, at least with the Eldar. I think that they most likely also wished to experience all the sensations that the Eldar could. Why would anyone wish to have a physical rather than solely metaphysical embodiment? I'm talking about eating, drinking, perhaps also sports, and other pleasures of the flesh which I won't delve into further to avoid getting banned!

As for the reason behind the creation of a ring, I would guess that this was necessary in order to control the other Rings of Power. Like controls like, kind of thing. If you want to beat other cars in a race, you build a faster car, rather than an airplane. I think Sauron's main purpose in creating the One Ring was to exercise control over all that was created with the others, rather than simply to increase his own innate power. Surely it also would have pleased him to beat Celebrimbor at his own game. Sauron was, after all, of the Maiar of Aulë, and we may guess that he was a master craftsman in his own right. He would have taken great pride in his creation, and may have been the first being to call It preciouss?

[Raynor]

Was Sauron's native power increased by the fact of the Ring? That is, let's say Sauron = 7 and the Ring = 6; does it make sense within the way LotR was sub-created that Sauron increases, by virtue of the Ring, from a 7 to a 10? ...such that even while dispossessed of the Ring, he functions effectively as a 5 (instead of the expected 7-6=1)? (the numbers are of course arbitrary and meant strictly for illustration).?

To address both bolded issues, I think that Letter #131 comes in handy :

While he wore it, his power on earth was actually enhanced. But even if he did not wear it, that power existed and was in 'rapport' with himself: he was not 'diminished'.

this source also reinforces the previous argument various posters have made about Sauron's intent with the ring:

This was the essential weakness [the possessing of the ring by someone else] he had introduced into his situation in his effort (largely unsuccessful) to enslave the Elves, and in his desire to establish a control over the minds and wills of his servants.

Edit:
Concerning the statement in letter #131 that Sauron was not diminished without the ring, it seems to be at odds with LotR:

Originally Posted by Shadow of the past, FotR

This is the One Ring that he lost many ages ago, to the great weakening of his power.

unless the first quote means that the _potential_ power was not dimished.

[Lalwendë]

The Osanwe-kenta should illuminate a lot about this question. It has a long note about the wself-arraying of the Ainur, and the main point is that the longer one of them takes on a hroa, the more of a 'habit' this becomes:

if a "spirit" (that is, not one of those embodied by creation) uses a hroa for the furtherance of its own personal purposes, or (still more) for the enjoyment of bodily faculties, it finds itself increasingly difficult to operate without the hroa.

It also specifically mentions Melkor and his quest:

to become Lord of the Incarnate, and of the great evils that he did in the visible body. Also he had disspiated his native powers in the control of his agents and servants, so that he became in the end, in himself and without their support, a weakened thing, consumed by hate and unable to restore himself from the state into which he had fallen.....So it was also with even some of his greatest servants, as in these later days we see:they became wedded to the forms of their evild deeds, and if these bodies wree taken from them or destroyed, they were nullified, until they had rebuilt a semblance of their former habitations, with which they could continue the evil courses in which they had become fixed. (Pengolodh here evidently refers to Sauron in particular...)

And this also applies to Sauron. We know that Sauron created the Ring when he was still 'hale' in his hroa, even beautiful in the form of Annatar; it was much later that his bodily form was harmed and he had to lie in hiding while he regained his strength or hroa. It seems that Sauron may have watched what happened to Melkor and learned a lesson, so he attempted to put some of his power into the Ring in order to maintain it.

Originally Posted by lmp

It should be pointed out that the Ring is, unless heated, unobtrusive, though made of gold. So it appears unextraordinary.

I wouldn't call any gold ring 'unobtrusive' as if you saw one lying on the ground or indeed fished one out of a river, then you would take it. Had he made a brass curtain ring then I think it would have gone unnoticed! However the question remains as to whether he did want it to go unnoticed? Of course, Gold was the metal into which Melkor had infused his power.

The other point arising from the Osanwe-kenta is to do with why Sauron made the Ring, and more to the point, why he helped make the other Rings. From the Sil there is evidence that the three Elven Rings (made in secret) made their bearers able to 'perceive' the One Ring, and we must presume this worked the other way too:

As soon as Sauron set the One Ring upon his finger they were aware of him; and they knew him, and perceived that he would be the master of them, and of all that they wrought. Then in anger and fear they took off their rings.

So this reveals something of the relationship between the Rings, and Osanwe-kenta makes it fall into place as being linked to sanwe. And the bearers of the Three must presumably have had to exercise considerable unwill in preventing Sauron (while he bore the One Ring, at least) from intruding on their thoughts.

Note now that Melkor, due to the right of the incarnate to utilise unwill, i.e. to close their minds to interrogation by others through use of sanwe, was unable to enter every mind. Some he did enter as they did not choose to use their unwill, but others remained shut. In Osanwe-kenta we are told that instead, he used language to enter these minds. Language, the skill which in many (most?) cases made the use of sanwe redundant.

in Valinor Melkor used the Quenya with such mastery that all the Eldar were amazed, for his use could not bettered, scarce equalled even, by the poets and the loremasters.

And what is that special feature of the One Ring? The words, the Black Speech, written in Tengwar, which are only revealed by Fire. A spell of sanwe, written in words, mastered with fire? The Ring Of Words indeed!

[littlemanpoet]

Thus we come to a rather fascinating set of concepts to set beside each other.

A spirit is more powerful than a being born of flesh. Note any Maia as compared to an Elf or Man. However, that spirit is, as unbodied, unable to have any effect upon material things, both living and unliving, other than by influence of thought.

A spirit can cause fear (not fëar), doubt, confusion, weariness, and the like, but cannot actually stop a bodied being in the road unless by influencing another bodied being to get in the first one's way.

Why would a spirit want to take on flesh? There is a good reason, and an evil reason. The good reason is to sub-create and enjoy; the evil reason is to possess and control. This is, of course, an oversimplification, but nevertheless harks back to some of the primary themes of Tolkien.

Funny, humans are faced with the same choice as are the Maiar in LotR: subcreate and enjoy, or possess and control.

However, Sauron does both in the making of the Ring. He sub-creates in order to possess and control, and finds his pleasure (enjoyment) in torturing others that he possesses and controls. So subcreation is at base what humans (both in LotR and in real life) are meant for; the choice is whether to do so for enjoyment and sharing (in all the best senses) or to possess and control.

[Lalwendë]

Originally Posted by lmp

A spirit is more powerful than a being born of flesh. Note any Maia as compared to an Elf or Man. However, that spirit is, as unbodied, unable to have any effect upon material things, both living and unliving, other than by influence of thought.

A spirit can cause fear (not fëar), doubt, confusion, weariness, and the like, but cannot actually stop a bodied being in the road unless by influencing another bodied being to get in the first one's way.

Why would a spirit want to take on flesh? There is a good reason, and an evil reason. The good reason is to sub-create and enjoy; the evil reason is to possess and control. This is, of course, an oversimplification, but nevertheless harks back to some of the primary themes of Tolkien.

And the Army of the Dead achieve what they do through simple fear (not green slime, as seen in the films ); the point presumably being that to all those on Middle-earth, even bad guys in league with Sauron, a ghost is an unnatural and terrifying thing.

We know that for Elves, to be a houseless Fea is a bad thing, an unnatural state. Tolkien says that not only are houseless Fear vulnerable to corruption but they are likely to turn to at the very least tricksy things (such as hiding in and 'possessing' trees and rocks) and at worst evil things. The only concept that Elves have of Hell is that they remain in the Halls of Mandos, houseless until Arda ends, though for some, this may in fact be a pleasure compared to life, e.g. Miriel, so Hell may in fact not be the appropriate term (how can we condemn her just for her suffering in giving birth to Feanor?!). So for some, at least, there is something slightly 'wrong' in wanting to be houseless, or a 'punishment' in being forced to be that way.

[Raynor]

Originally Posted by littlemanpoet

However, that spirit is, as unbodied, unable to have any effect upon material things, both living and unliving, other than by influence of thought.

In the Sil it is stated:

Originally Posted by Of the Sun and Moon and the hiding of Valinor, Silmarillion

It is told that after the flight of Melkor the Valar sat long unmoved upon their thrones in the Ring of Doom; but they were not idle, as Feanor declared in the folly of his heart. For the Valar may work many things with thought rather than with hands, and without voices in silence they may hold council one with another.

Now, considering other evidences already given, it is safe to say that they could such influences even if they didn't have their hroar (perhaps even better). Also, concerning Olorin:

Originally Posted by Of the maiar, Valaquenta, Silmarillion

But of Olorin that tale does not speak; for though he loved the Elves, he walked among them unseen, or in form as one of them, and they did not know whence came the fair visions or the promptings of wisdom that he put into their hearts.

So, even Olorin, 'just' a Maia, is able to do certain actions apparently without a body. In the letters, Sauron was able to carry his ring with him from the sinking of Numenor all the way to Middle Earth, while being disembodied.

Originally Posted by lmp

However, Sauron does both in the making of the Ring. He sub-creates in order to possess and control

I would say that the correct term would be "Machine" instead of subcreation, as a term indicating Power/Magic as opposed to Art, which is a reflection of Eru's will.

Originally Posted by Lal

The only concept that Elves have of Hell is that they remain in the Halls of Mandos

Err, I certainly doubt that the halls of Mandos would ever come close to the Hells of Iron - Angband, which many of the elves would have experiened long before the halls of Mandos. Not to mention that in Mandos, Nienna brings pity, endurance, hope, strength and wisdom, cf Of the Valar.

[The Saucepan Man]

Originally Posted by doug*platypus

Hello again littlemanpoet and Saucepan Man!

Hello there doug. Good to see you back and posting.

Originally Posted by Raynor

Now, considering other evidences already given, it is safe to say that they could such influences even if they didn't have their hroar (perhaps even better).

Good point. Perhpas it is more accurate to say that a physical body allowed them to interact with, rather than influence, the physical world.

[Rune Son of Bjarne]

Interesting topic indeed. . .

About the physical form, it would make sence that lesser maia would need it to really interact with the world. . .But surely the Valar and others should be powerful enough to vield their power even with out physical shape. I just think there must be more to it than interacting.

It seem like the Valar and some Maiar was perfectly capable of "shaping" Arda without physical form, the only reason for them seem to have been the love for the children as far as I can see. . .(which might not be very far). Now Melkor envied them and as said before it would only be natural for his subjects to do likewise.

I belive I belive Ulmo hardly ever had a physical form, but still managed to send messages to Elves and Men.

Why did Maia Melian have a physical shape? It could not have been to interact with elves. . .maybe so that she could interact with nature? Still it does not seem like the right explanation to me.

I guess my conclution would be that the Valar and Maia could use their powers and send messages to living beings without a physical shape. They would however need it to have direct conversations and maybe(I am not sure about this one) to inflict physical pain on them. . .

hmmm the Ring.

I don't really have any theory about Sauron's motives, but I have a few thoughts about Tolkien's.

Rings have always been a symbol of might.
Mighty kings would give his vassals rings, not only would it show the riches he possesed, but it would also symbolise the power he held over these.
Sauron does more or less the same, just in a more cunning way. The rings he gives out gives him the power rather than be a show of power.

btw. Another powerful Ring-Lord worth Mentioning would be Odin!

[Raynor]

Originally Posted by Rune

I believe Ulmo hardly ever had a physical form, but still managed to send messages to Elves and Men.

Ulmo does have a body, yet not of the manner of his peers:

Originally Posted by Of the valar, Valaquenta, Silmarillion

Moreover he does not love to walk upon land, and will seldom clothe himself in a body after the manner of his peers. If the Children of Eru beheld him they were filled with a great dread; for the arising of the King of the Sea was terrible, as a mounting wave that strides to the land, with dark helm foam-crested and raiment of mail shimmering from silver down into shadows of green.

although the description given in Unfinished Tales sounds a bit more humane:

Originally Posted by Of Tuor and his coming to Gondolin, Part One: The first age

And it seemed to [Tuor] that a great wave rose far off and rolled towards the land, but wonder held him, and he remained there unmoved. And the wave came towards him, and upon it lay a mist of shadow. Then suddenly as it drew near it curled, and broke, and rushed forward in long arms of foam; but where it had broken there stood dark against the rising storm a living shape of great height and majesty.

Then Tuor bowed in reverence, for it seemed to him that he beheld a mighty king. A tall crown he wore like silver, from which his long hair fell down as foam glimmering in the dusk and as he cast back the grey mantle that hung about him like a mist, behold! he was clad in a gleaming coat, close-fitted as the mail of mighty fish, and in a kirtle of deep green that flashed and flickered with sea-fire as he strode slowly towards the land.

[Rune Son of Bjarne]

Moreover he does not love to walk upon land, and will seldom clothe himself in a body after the manner of his peers. If the Children of Eru beheld him they were filled with a great dread; for the arising of the King of the Sea was terrible, as a mounting wave that strides to the land, with dark helm foam-crested and raiment of mail shimmering from silver down into shadows of green.

The way I read it, it means that he seldome has a physical body like the other Valar. When he talks to Tuor it is one of the few times he takes physical shape. . .

Maybe I am reading it wrong, but this was the impression I got.

[Raynor]

It seems that the valar weren't always 'clothed' after all; in letter #212, which I previously quoted, it is said that the "habitual" shapes of the valar when visible or clothed are antropomorphic. In the commentary on the first section of the Annals of Aman, it is also stated that they "most often" used shapes of human form.

[Lalwendë]

Err, I certainly doubt that the halls of Mandos would ever come close to the Hells of Iron - Angband, which many of the elves would have experiened long before the halls of Mandos. Not to mention that in Mandos, Nienna brings pity, endurance, hope, strength and wisdom, cf Of the Valar.

But Angband would be a living Hell, a very different thing to a hell for the soul or spirit. I also tend to view Mandos as more like purgatory, certainly for those who do not leave due to being 'punished'. Perhaps there simply is no Hell for Elves that we can conceive of, due to their different nature?

And following on from that, what can we take from what happens to Saruman after his physical 'cloaking' is broken? His 'spirit' reaches out to the West but is blown away. Is it dissipated? Is it just rejected and left to wander? If the 'spirit' can be dissipated so easily, maybe Ainur sought out a physical form as a way of attaining some kind of protection - especially if wanting to commit evil deeds?

In fact,can we call it a Fea if we are talking about one of the Ainur? Or do the terms Fea and Hroa only apply to Incarnates, i.e. Elves, Men, Dwarves? In the Osanwe-kenta Tolkien makes a clear distinction between the Ainur and the 'Incarnates'.

[Raynor]

But Angband would be a living Hell, a very different thing to a hell for the soul or spirit. I also tend to view Mandos as more like purgatory

Mandos as a purgatory is something I can live with ; there is no suffering coming from outside, on the contrary, given the Nienna factor. Maybe even purgatory is strong a word.

Is it dissipated?

I doubt that:

Originally Posted by Letter #211

The indestructibility of spirits with free wills, even by the Creator of them, is also an inevitable feature, if one either believes in their existence, or feigns it in a story.

In fact,can we call it a Fea if we are talking about one of the Ainur? Or do the terms Fea and Hroa only apply to Incarnates, i.e. Elves, Men, Dwarves? In the Osanwe-kenta Tolkien makes a clear distinction between the Ainur and the 'Incarnates'.

I believe the difference lies only in orders of magnitude; in the text you refer to it is also stated that:

Pengolodh says that all minds (sama, pl. samar) are equal in status, though they differ in capacity and strength.

and from the context it is understood that he referrs to ainu-level and Incarnates too. The term fea is translated as spirit; the valar and the maiar are also referred to as spirits in the Silmarillion.

[littlemanpoet]

So the Valar (Ainur & Maiar), as non-incarnates, could & did influence incarnate (bodied) beings in Arda. The question of 'why take a body' still seems to have been adequately answered (to use SPM's rewording), to interact with incarnates.

The Valar could subcreate without being incarnate, at least at first. But could it perhaps be that after the initial forming of the structure of Arda, that ability was lost, or set aside?

I suppose it doesn't really matter: Melian chose to become incarnate so that she could love Thingol and have union with him, and give birth to Luthien and raise her, and set a destiny for Elves and Humans that none but Eru foresaw. Is this not subcreation for the purpose of enjoyment and sharing? But is it not more? ...because there's something of destiny in this now, which suggests something more powerful than mere enjoyment or sharing; but what?

To give the dark example, Sauron chose to become incarnate so that he could possess and control. Could he not do so without becoming incarnate? If so, why then take a body (back to the original question)? Why make a Ring?

[Rune Son of Bjarne]

Originally Posted by littlemanpoet

I suppose it doesn't really matter: Melian chose to become incarnate so that she could love Thingol and have union with him, and give birth to Luthien and raise her, and set a destiny for Elves and Humans that none but Eru foresaw. Is this not subcreation for the purpose of enjoyment and sharing? But is it not more? ...because there's something of destiny in this now, which suggests something more powerful than mere enjoyment or sharing; but what?

That could not really be why she chose to become incarnated unless she knew all this would happen in advance. Why did she chose to walk in a earthly body in the forrest when Thingol came by? Surely she did not expect him to show up, then again she is a powerful Maia. . .Maybe she had forseen some of what would happen.

[Lalwendë]

Some useful grist for t'mill from Osanwe-kenta:

The Valar entered into Ea and Time of free will, and they are now in Time, so long as it endures. They can perceive nothing outside Time, save by memory of their existence before it began; they can recall the Song and the Vision. They are, of course, open to Eru, but they cannot of their own will 'see' any part of His mind. They can open themselves to Eru in entreaty and He may then reveal His thought to them.

and

...a mind can only learn of the future only from another mind which has seen it.But that means only from Eru ultimately, or mediately from some mind that has seen in Eru some part of his purpose (such as the Ainur who are now in Ea).

So a Maia such as Melian might know from before Time some of the purposes of Eru, or she might have asked Eru about the future, but likewise, there are no guarantees. We are also told in the Sil that she simply loved Thingol and so took on a physical form (and in Osanwe-kenta we are told that the act of begetting children is particularly likely to 'fix' someone in physical form, so she must really have been in love!). Therefore, it could be either - I would say the 'magic' is in not really knowing the truth.


Of course, if we go down the path that Melian knew Eru's purpose, why should Sauron not have known it? And that leaves us with one of two options - evil was unavoidable as Eru made it happen, or Sauron (and the Dark Side) were actually trying to free Ea from 'fate'.

EDIT

And another thing...

Thinking about the way that the Ainur entered Ea and were then 'stuck' there until the end of Time, there is an odd occurence of one of the Ainur who does not seem to have been stuck there. Gandalf.

A great smoke rose about us, vapour and steam. Ice fell like rain. I threw down my enemy, and he fell from the high place and broke the mountain-side where he smote it in his ruin. Then darkness took me, and I strayed out of thought and time, and I wandered far on roads that I will not tell. 'Naked I was sent back--for a brief time, until my task is done. And naked I lay upon the mountain-top. The tower behind was crumbled into dust, the window gone; the ruined stair was choked with burned and broken stone. I was alone, forgotten, without escape upon the hard horn of the world. There I lay staring upward, while the stars wheeled over, and each day was as long as a life-age of the earth. Faint to my ears came the gathered rumour of all lands: the springing and the dying, the song and the weeping, and the slow everlasting groan of overburdened stone. And so at the last Gwaihir the Windlord found me again, and he took me up and bore me away. '"Ever am I fated to be your burden, friend at need," I said. '"A burden you have been," he answered, "but not so now. Light as a swan's feather in my claw you are. The Sun shines through you. Indeed I do not think you need me any more: were I to let you fall, you would float upon the wind." '"Do not let me fall!" I gasped, for I felt life in me again. "Bear me to Lothlorien!" '"That indeed is the command of the Lady Galadriel who sent me to look for you," he answered. "Thus it was that I came to Caras Galadhon and found you but lately gone. I tarried there in the ageless time of that land where days bring healing not decay. Healing I found, and I was clothed in white. Counsel I gave and counsel took.

What's this then? Gandalf seems to have gone right outside Time (as has been discussed before), but he is returned seemingly as a Fea only, judging by what Gwaihir says. The Sun shines straight through him. Does his Hroa come back to him as Gwaihir bears him along? Does it come back to him in Lothlorien? Can that be ruled out as surely even Galadriel cannot be permitted to rehouse a Fea? Note that Galadriel formed the White Council, and she is the one who clothes Gandalf in White. Is she the one who chooses the White Wizard?

[littlemanpoet]

I didn't really mean to suggest that Melian had all this in mind when she revealed herself to Thingol. Rather, that she loved him and intended to become his Queen (if that title is appropriate), and all that would ensue therefrom; and it was Eru who knew just what that would all be. I really meant that all those things were results of a once-in-time choice. Sort of like real life, eh?

But I'm not getting answers on the newly stated Dark question:

If Sauron didn't need to be incarnate in order to subcreate, own, possess, ruin, torture, and make a Ring to do the same, why become incarnate at all? Was it something that Eru required in order for Valar to be part of the History of Arda? Were there ever any really non-incarnate Valar in Arda? Ulmo does not fit this description, as he was incarnate as Water rather than as Human(oid).

[Lalwendë]

Just cross posted with you - with some other thoughts. Sorry!

Hmm, but Ulmo's 'form' is an elemental one, one which necessarily interacts with the world. The other Ainur also either take on 'humanoid' (don't like that word) or 'elemental' forms. Those who take on 'elemental' forms seem to become personifications of those elements - e.g. Varda as the stars, Yavanna as plants. They very much become part of the fabric of Arda.

So I would say that Sauron too had to take on a form or an 'aspect' in order to interact with Arda too. When Sauron is without physical form all he can do is 'influence', he cannot physically interact with the world. However, there was still the Ring, so something 'physical' of him still existed. So could we say he never really went away for that time? Also, the Ringwraiths existed throughout that time, bound to him.

[littlemanpoet]

The problem with saying that Sauron can only influence and not interact, when without Hroa, is that he somehow managed to get the Ring from the sinking Numenor to Middle Earth proper, as Raynor reminded us a few posts back. How did he do that? By the power of the Ring, perhaps? Or was Sauron partly in the Ring, such that he could be considered to have been incarnate even though his body has been destroyed? I think it is an unnecessary conundrum, and the answer is that a fëa does not need to be in a hroa in order to interact/influence/change Arda, depending upon the power of the Maia we're discussing, of course.

As for Gandalf, there is a bit of a mystery there. That Gwaihir says he can see through him could indicate a couple of things:
1. Gwaihir can see hroa-less fëar
2. Gandalf's hroa was transparent

I lean toward the second, because Gandalf perceives Frodo as somewhat transparent, lying in the bed at Rivendel (quite early in the tale!); I think we can take it here that Gandalf is looking at Frodo with his hroa eyes, by the way.

So Gandalf has been taken out of Time and placed back in Time. This must have been accomplished by Eru since such an action is beyond the capability of any of the Valar. The battle with the Balrog has, first of all, killed Gandalf. His hroa is dead. But his fëa is taken clean out of Arda, not sent to the Halls of Mandos; then it is sent back again to the very same Time and Place (give or take hours/days/whatever). And the fëa is reconnected with its hroa, but revivified and made less "fleshy" by his battle with the Balrog. This has precedent throughout the Legendarium; not only with Frodo, but with the greatest of the Elves; the more purified (burning with the inner fire of their own fëar usually) the Eldar become, the more transparent they become. This seems to be evident with Elrond too.

(It's interesting how fëar are represented as the element of fire...)

[Raynor]

At the time of the making of the Girdle of Doriath, Melian told Thingol that she foresaw the coming of Beren, and he would be more powerful than her magic, since a higher doom drives him. Now, unless Eru revealed to Melian these things only after she met Thingol, she must have known all along about Beren and his doom, her girdle, and, most likely, her presence and role in Middle Earth near Thingol.

Originally Posted by Lal

Those who take on 'elemental' forms seem to become personifications of those elements - e.g. Varda as the stars

I don't think that Varda is described as 'elemental', since, as stated in the Valaquenta:

Originally Posted by Of the Valar

Too great is her beauty to be declared in the words of Men or of Elves; for the light of Iluvatar lives still in her face.

Concerning the issue of interaction/influence, I would say that even semantically they are almost similar; or, to be more exact, influence is a particular case of interaction. So far, we know of no limitation of the valar and maiar in their incarnate form; the opposite is, actually, true.

[Lalwendë]

I also find a problem in how Sauron got the Ring from Numenor. The answer to it could also lie in the nature of the Ring of course. But we do see one Maia without physical form and that's Saruman, and from the description of what happens to him, it wouldn't seem possible that he could interact with the physical world - after all, surely if he could, then wouldn't he have smote the Hobbits or somesuch? Instead he immediately appeals to the Valar and is rejected. Though perhaps this explains why they send the wind to dissipate him?

Now, there is another possibility as to why Sauron (and indeed Melkor) would want to take on a physical form. The possession of a Hroa actually provides some degree of 'protection', an additional barrier of Unwill to prevent the mind from being perceived. And if you have dark deeds in mind, then you do not want them to be revealed.

And yet more ideas... Of course Melkor and Sauron wanted to interact with the Elves, and then with Men and other mortals. Possession of a Hroa would instantly make this easier as a tangible person would be more readily accepted than a spirit. That's just simple psychology, and note also that both our Dark Lords also take on a 'fair' form at first, instantly attractive and appealing. There is also the issue of language, a pertinent one considering the central importance of language to our author. Incarnates have become users of language as habit instead of using sanwe, though Tolkien makes it clear they still have this ability, in some it lies latent and in others they do use it a little even when using language. Is it possible that it was essential to have a Hroa in order to use language?

[Raynor]

Though perhaps this explains why they send the wind to dissipate him?

How do you interpret dissipate in this case?

after all, surely if he could, then wouldn't he have smote the Hobbits or somesuch?

We know from Myths Transformed that when Melkor was executed:

Originally Posted by Notes on motives in the Silmarillion, iii, HoME X

When that body was destroyed he was weak and utterly 'houseless', and for that time at a loss and 'unanchored' as it were.

I would say that a similar situation occured with Saruman, who was far less powerful than Melkor, and thus even more severely (and for a longer term) weakened by the loss of his hroa.

Is it possible that it was essential to have a Hroa in order to use language?

It depends on what sort of language; Tolkien differentiates between lambe and tengwesta. Lambe, language, has the same root as lamba, which is the phisical tongue, a relation which rose "from elementary observation of the important part played by the tongue in articulate speaking, and from noticing the peculiarities of individuals, and the soon-developing minor differences in the language of groups and clans", cf. Appendix D, Quendi an Eldar, HoME XI. The eldar also used tengwesta, "a system or code of signs": a lambe is a tengwesta built of sounds. As such, it is most likely that thought transmission used some sort of tengwesta; the root "ten" means to point at, and it is free from any limitation to the kind of signs used.

The possession of a Hroa actually provides some degree of 'protection', an additional barrier of Unwill to prevent the mind from being perceived.

While a hroa does hinder thought transmission, I don't think that, in fact, it serves as a protection, seeing that a hroa weakens a maia's (or vala's) abilities, in which I would include the strength of the unwill - although you may be right. I am thinking of Saruman who let some of his secrets slip to Sauron, while looking in the palantir.

[Lalwendë]

Raynor, I like your interpretation of what happened to Saruman, not least as I rather like Saruman (even if he was a bad guy!), so I don't like to think he was quite literally blown to the four winds. However, I doubt he could have been 'destroyed' by the Valar; even were it possible I don't think it would have been permissible. I think he was simply trying to seek his way back 'home' to the Undying Lands and they refused him admittance, so he was left to seek his way in Middle-earth. Hmm, wonder if this is why he too made himself a 'ring of power'? To help re-house himself? Could make a good story...

Anyway. I was under the impression from Osanwe-kenta that sanwe was an inherent ability and did not need the use of any form of recognisable language, and that language only grew up as people found they did not need to use sanwe through proximity. Language does seem to be restricted to Elves and mortals (and to those they taught language to), so I get the feeling it is not something the Ainur were accustomed to using - there's the example of the 'debate' between Gandalf and Saruman at Orthanc which the listeners are 'shut out' of; are they reverting to the usual mode of communication of the Maiar here?

[Raynor]

Hmm, wonder if this is why he too made himself a 'ring of power'? To help re-house himself?

I don't think that his power, and therefore the power he could have poured into the ring, was anywhere close to Sauron's, so as to allow him to rehouse himself; and it is mentioned in the LotR preface that he still had missing links in his ring-lore. I believe that he, like Sauron, never contemplated his death, and therefore had no planned backups.

I doubt he could have been 'destroyed' by the Valar

Perhaps you skipped my post #23

Originally Posted by Letter #211

The indestructibility of spirits with free wills, even by the Creator of them, is also an inevitable feature, if one either believes in their existence, or feigns it in a story.

I was under the impression from Osanwe-kenta that sanwe was an inherent ability and did not need the use of any form of recognisable language, and that language only grew up as people found they did not need to use sanwe through proximity.

Hm.. I don't know. I know of no referrence about children using thought transmission - they would need will and also have what to transmit. If they haven't been already properly taught about notions and all, I guess they could only transmit, in extreme circumstances, only basic feelings. Though you may be right.

I get the feeling it is not something the Ainur were accustomed to using

I wouldn't say so; in Quendi and Eldar, it is said that Lambe Valarinwe, the language of the valar, is mentioned in the old lore of the early days of the eldar in Aman. Furthermore, in the comentary on chapter 3, Of the coming of the elves, Later Quenta Silmarillion, HoME X, it is stated that Orome "'taught [the elves] the language of the gods, from whence afterwards they made the fair Elvish speech". More specifically, in Quendi and Eldar, it is stated that:

Originally Posted by Notes on "The language of the valar", HoME XI

In such [bodily] forms [the valar] would take on all the characters of the Incarnates that were due to the co-operation of hroa with indwelling fea, for otherwise the assumption of these forms would have been needless, and they arrayed themselves in this manner long before they had any cause to appear before us visibly. Since, then, the making of a lambe is the chief character of an Incarnate, the Valar, having arrayed them in this manner, would inevitably during their long sojourn in Arda have made a lambe for themselves.

Edit:
Some more notes I made on the issue of indestructibility of the fea:

Originally Posted by Atrabeth Finrod ah Andreth

The fea is indestructible, a unique identity which cannot be disintegrated or absorbed into any other identity.

Originally Posted by Myths Transformed

...no fea can be annihilated, reduced to zero or not-existing

Originally Posted by Later Quenta Silmarillion

...the fea cannot be broken or disintegrated by any violence from without

[littlemanpoet]

Raynor, are you actually Christopher Tolkien?

You are an amazing source of Tolkien lore, sir. Thanks for all of your clarifications.

Lal, I like your basic psychology that Melkor and Sauron chose fair forms in order to manipulate Elves and Men.

What seems to be pulling together is that a Vala is quite powerful and free before taking a Hroa, has limits (of course) while "wearing" that Hroa, and should the Vala in question become evil, and loose the Hroa through death, becomes far weaker than with the Hroa. Conversely, a Vala who (like Gandalf) does a self-sacrificial act of good, if the Hroa dies, may revert to whatever state Eru deems most useful to Eru's purpose.

[Lalwendë]

Originally Posted by Raynor

I wouldn't say so; in Quendi and Eldar, it is said that Lambe Valarinwe, the language of the valar, is mentioned in the old lore of the early days of the eldar in Aman. Furthermore, in the comentary on chapter 3, Of the coming of the elves, Later Quenta Silmarillion, HoME X, it is stated that Orome "'taught [the elves] the language of the gods, from whence afterwards they made the fair Elvish speech".

Just had another look in osanwe-kenta and pulled out the following bits:

This refers to how the use of language has seen a decline in the use of/need for/ability to use sanwe:

tengwesta has also become an impediment [to sanwe. my words]. It is in Incarnates clearer and more precise than their direct reception of thought.

The following refers to Melkor's interest in language, but also hints that it is an inherent skill in Incarnates, not one taught by the Valar:

from the first he was greatly interested in language, that talent that the Eruhini would have by nature;

The following again seems to hint that language is an Incarnate skill, not one of the Ainur's natural abilities. It also suggests that having taken on a hroa and begun to use language, their own inherent skills of sanwe would decline in some small degree. Wouldn't you then, as one of the Ainur, be particularly keen to hang on to that hroa?

The Hroa and tengwesta have inevitably some like effect on the Valar, if they assume bodily raiment. the hroa will to some degree dim in force and precision the sending of the thought...If they have acquired the habit of tengwesta, as some may who have acquired the custom of being arrayed, then this will reduce the practice of osanwe. Bt these effects are far less than in the case of the Incarnate.

This refers again to what the Ainur preferred to use, and how language for some was a 'choice':

...the use of tengwesta or lambe has never become imperative, and only with some has it become a custom and preference.

And then to the nub of what I'm trying to get at. Melkor it seems decided or realised that sanwe would not always work as there was the distinct possibility of people using unwill and closing off their mind, and he really wanted to get at the minds of the good people. So he decided to pursue the use of language, and to use language, you need a body!

Therefore he sought means to circumvent the unat and unwill. And this weapon he found in language. For we speak now of the Eruhini whom he most desired to subjugate...their language, though it comes from the spirit or mind, operates through and with the body;

So, there's my idea. The Ainur, like Melkor and Sauron, wanted a hroa, a body, so that they could use language?

[Raynor]

Thanks lmp, that is one of the nicest compliments I ever received .

The following refers to Melkor's interest in language, but also hints that it is an inherent skill in Incarnates, not one taught by the Valar:

I would say that a skill being "natural" or not to the valar or incarnates is something very relative; on the one hand, the valar are capable of pretty much any created being can do; in the notes on the language of the valar, Pengolodh notes that no lambe is alien to the self-incarnate; on the other, I guess that no incarnate can perform a high-level skill like language unless taught by peers (or others).

The Ainur, like Melkor and Sauron, wanted a hroa, a body, so that they could use language?

I think that language use was not among their first things they had in mind when chosing bodies;the choosing of bodies by the valar had more to do with their love of creation and Children's Eru:

Originally Posted by Ainulindale, Silmarillion

But when the Ainur had beheld this habitation in a vision and had seen the Children of Iluvatar arise therein, then many of the most mighty among them bent all their thought and their desire towards that place

Originally Posted by Letter #212

It was because of their love of Ea, and because of the pan they had played in its making, that they wished to, and could, incarnate themselves in visible physical forms, though these were comparable to our clothes (in so far as our clothes are a personal expression) not to our bodies. ... the 'habitual' shapes of the Valar, when visible or clothed, were anthropomorphic, because of their intense concern with Elves and Men.

[Also, from the same text from Quendi and Eldar I quoted previously that the valar "would inevitably during their long sojourn in Arda have made a lambe for themselves" - emphasis added; the use of language, although noted as a pleasure for them, seems more like coming with the teritory of being incarnate, rather than a purpose in itself.]

On the other hand, I guess that the chosing of a body by Melkor had to do, firstly, with "the control of the phisical matter of Arda",( as quoted in post #3), a control in which he expended a great part of his power, to his demise; indeed, the marring of Arda seems to be the most important, longest lasting, undefeatable save by Eru, act of the fallen vala.

[Lalwendë]

Raynor, sorry I wasn't very clear in how I put my last post! It's clear that the Ainur took on forms in order to enter Arda, so this can be the only reason why it was initially done, but as to lmp's original question about 'what was so great about having a body/hroa', I think that being able to use language was a major motivator. Somehow this also ties in nicely with the hidden words (in Tengwar) that were engraved or etched into the One Ring.

Does the use of language also give more opportunities for sub-creation in terms of creating stories, verse and song? This may also explain why those like Melkor were so keen to become wordsmiths. Hmmm, we know that Saruman and Melkor in particular were noted for their skills with language (as was Aule, the Smith, also a wordsmith), was Sauron also so noted?

[Raynor]

I don't think that taking a form was a prerequisite of entering Arda, more like a personal choice. Concerning the use of language for making verses, stories or song, we know that Yavanna used song in her making of the trees and that poetry was of a particular delight to Manwe, who taught it (along with singing) to the vanyar.

Sauron's most oustanding "poetical" moment ought to be his battle of songs of power with Finrod (outstanding moment), although I presume that inner power had more to do with it that pure poetic skill.

[Lalwendë]

If it was Manwe who taught poetry to the Elves then that makes this much more interesting:

in Valinor Melkor used the Quenya with such mastery that all the Eldar were amazed, for his use could not bettered, scarce equalled even, by the poets and the loremasters.

I wonder if Melkor was a greater poet than Manwe himself? And did Melkor also learn poetry from him? Or was it a particular skill that all or most of the Valar had?

I'm also now intrigued by what Melkor's poetry might have been like. Any examples? I can't think of any off the top of my head...