LotR3-RotK-Seq06

[alatar]

”From these movements, we expected something serious was [to] be transacted. On Tuesday evening, the 18th, it was observed, that a number of Soldiers were marching towards the bottom of the Common. About 10 o'Clock, Dr. Warren Sent in great haste for me, and beged that I would imediately Set off for Lexington, where Messrs. Hancock and Adams were, and acquaint them of the Movement, and that it was thought they were the objets. When I got to Dr. Warren's house, I found he had sent an express by land to Lexington—a Mr. Wm. Daws. The Sunday before, by desire of Dr. Warren, I had been to Lexington, to Mess. Hancock and Adams, who were at the Rev. Mr. Clark's. I returned at Night thro Charlestown; there I agreed with a Col. Conant, and some other Gentlemen, that if the British went out by Water, we would shew two Lanthorns in the North Church Steeple; and if by Land, one, as a Signal; for we were aprehensive it would be dificult to Cross the Charles River, or git over Boston neck.” -- Col. Paul Revere regarding the events taking place 18 April 1775.

Or

One, if by land, and two, if by sea; -- Paul Revere's Ride by Henry Wadsworth Longfellow, 1860.


Frodo, Sam and Gollum see Minas Morgul (formerly Minas Ithil) in the distance. It’s green glow, though sickly, reminds me somehow of Lothlorien. The city almost looks like it is constructed of hanging luminous green sheets. Gollum continues to play the tour guide, and leads the two hobbits from the bridge to the stairs. Frodo stares at the statue that brackets the causeway, and to me it looks like a horned representation of a devil. Gollum shows them that just in front of the bridge there is the ‘secret stair.’ It’s almost silly to call it that, as to me anyone walking on the paved way would see the rough-hewn stairs in the cliff wall. Sam looks skyward to take measure of the task, and the height is daunting. Sam starts the journey up the Straight (Up!) Stairs, but Frodo hesitates. Seems that he senses something in the dead city, and it calls to him. Hand on Ring, he crosses between the two statues and makes his way to the emerald city. As if caused by his action, the ground rumbles then a pillar of light shoots skyward from the tower in front of them. More than these three see it, and it’s bright enough to illuminate the balcony on which stand Pip and Gandalf (won’t go into the physics, but doesn’t the light seem brighter in Gondor than on Frodo?). Sam pushes Frodo ahead, back from the bridge, while Gollum yells to hide. Soldiers and people, seen in Minas Tirith, see this sign of doom also (note to civilians - now would be the time to start evacuating the lower levels). Pip looks up very anxiously to Gandalf, and though the wizard says nothing, he puts an arm on the hobbit’s shoulder, just like he did back in the Shire with Frodo. Pip swallows visibly.

Gollum, Sam and Frodo find a convenient place to both hide and view the green city. The first Winged Nazgûl appears - it is the Fell Captain of Despair, the Witch-King of Angmar, the Lord of Morgul. He lets out a scream that has increased in power and screechiness since first heard in the fields of Hobbiton. Frodo feels anew the wound given to him at Weathertop…err…that hill that they met the five Nazgul on back in FotR.

The Witch-King reigns in his Fell Beast (not everything, seemingly, is under his power as the beastie want to go elsewhere ), and I note that the creature’s wings look a lot like those seen on the Reign of Fire movie’s dragons. The Gates of Minas Morgul open and the troops pour out. Note the size of the doors. Are these the same size as those in Minas Tirith? The army with banners and torches and weapons makes its way west, getting ready to start the battle of the age. The Witch-King flies by, not seeing the hobbits and Gollum, who seemingly hide just off the side of the road (through up off of the road a bit). I know that the Witch-King is getting on in years, and his Ring too is a burden, but I would have liked to have seen him ride, not fly, but with Fell Beasts available, I guess it does make more sense to utilize them. Gollum chides Sam and Frodo to get moving. The climb appears to be nearly vertical, and so is a challenge for the hobbits.

Gandalf notes that the board is set and that the first move has been made.

Gollum, now with his prey safely approaching his trap, is gleeful. Sam asks what is in the tunnel, and threatens Stinker and Slinker. Gollum, having played the game longer than poor Sam, plans something interesting for the mean fat hobbit.

Back in the gloom of Minas Tirith, Gandalf sets yet another hobbit on a quest. “Go fetch me an apple, my lad. Prove yet again the great worth of the Shire.” Pippin scurries off to light the beacons of Minas Tirith. Many before have tried, but none have ever succeeded, as the journey is long, hand and the wood is guarded by a…guard.

Just a couple of questions: Why doesn’t Gandalf just buffalo his way past the guard and light the thing? He could even just throw Pip up to the fire. Why not clunk Denethor in the head a bit early and have him dive, flaming, onto it - wouldn’t that be funny/ironic? Why doesn’t Denethor call for aid? Even if he doesn’t want to turn the whole place over to Aragorn; still, I doubt that even if Gondor survives the coming storm that the populace would be happy with a Steward leader who did nothing to defend them, and may be more inclined towards someone, such as Aragorn, who made an effort. Denethor, by not calling for aid is shooting himself in the foot. And, while I’m on the topic, I can deal with a mad Steward if that Steward lost all sense AFTER his second son dies (or is near enough), but before?

Anyway, we’ll just have to wait to see what Pip’s quest really is.

Back at the Anduin, the enemy has arrived. The Gondorian army is at ease, not knowing that the orcs approach. Faramir converses with one of his men, and we learn that all is quiet on the eastern front. There are scouts north, and so any attack from that direction will be noted. Somehow no one looks east were, just recently in TTT, there were orcs shooting across the river.

The dark army paddles somewhat silently across the Anduin. Gothmog, the disfigured orc with the Claymation-gone-bad head, orders quiet when a trooper makes a noise, fumbling candy wrappers or something (I can’t tell). The Gondorian soldiers don’t see the black tide rising even when it is almost upon them. Can’t they even see the torches? One unlucky feller does see the invading armada, and the orcs target him, sending an arrow right into his heart - the armor that he wore must have been for show (unlike that much-touted Uruk armor that we saw at Helm’s Deep). Still, in death, the soldier raises the alarm. Faramir takes one look at the prone figure lying on the ground with arrow in chest and realizes that Sauron is not coming from the north.

Dead men do tell tales.

Quickly he rallies his men to meet the attackers. The tension builds as the defenders make their way to the shore, as do Gothmog’s marines. Sauron had his army use landing craft where the front of the raft drops down to make a ramp on which the orcs run to the shore. Cute, but could you really construct something like that out of sticks?

Faramir and his men let some of the orcs make landfall before countering the invasion. One can almost see the D-Day Normandy invasion (6 June 1944) here, with the resistance being less than provided by the Germans at Omaha beach. No landing craft is sunk, and almost immediately the orcs gain a foothold. Where are the archers that could have slowed the orcs from departing their boats? If the first few departees were shot, the progress of the others behind would be hampered. Faramir shows that he’s not just some wizard’s pupil but a man of steel like his older brother. Even his abilities here are no match for might of Sauron, as the Dark Lord can afford to pay dearly for the crossing. The tension of the scene can be felt, and there is a visceral excitement to it. I would have like to have seen Faramir wield more than just his sword - show that a weapon exists between his ears as well. PJ could have showed why Faramir was a great captain of men and why he was respected as such - though he would still lose Osgiliath (again!), Faramir could have had some ploy to at least slow the orc landing.

The Anduin is bridged, and more orcs pour into West Osgiliath. Maybe Denethor was right in his assessment of his second born, as within moments the city will be overrun.

Westward ho!

[Saurreg]

I wonder what would have made Jackson script that the Gondorians would be so complacent in the face of an enemy strongly entrenched on the Eastern banks and intend on river crossing? I always had the impression that the Gondorians in the book anticipated the Witch King's intentions correctly but were out numbered and out maneuvered.

True, history recorded that the most astute commanders avoid pitched battles directly in the face of the enemy by crossing up or down river in the still of the night (Alexander at the Hydapseus comes to mind), but would any defender be willing to gamble that and place all his eggs in a basket?

Of course that is nothing compared to what is to come later. It is in times like these that I'm grateful Jackson did not direct King of Heaven and Scott did.

EDIT: Funny you should mention about the Overlord landings and question the wisdom of not stopping the enemy when they were still in the waters. Feldmarshall Von Rundstedt wanted to wait till the allies have all landed on the shore before attacking them while Rommel wanted to pick them off before they came close to the shore. Ultimately I think it depends on the numbers of the defenders and their resolve. The first solution will turn a meeting engagement general abet with slim advantages for a strong defender while the second conserves the strength of the defenders. Provided they are not over-stretched that is.

[Essex]

Listening to the different Commentaries as I now do each time I reflect on these scenes, I heard one of the designers mention that they had an issue withe the 'secret' stairs. How do you keep them secret but show them on screen? so they were stuck between a rock and a hard place.

I've always thought the lack of sound for a fraction of a second before minas morgul explodes in anger was a great touch. Less is More as they say.....

I like the way Jackson joins our heroes back to the other world (minas tirith) as Minas Morgul erputs and both groups have their different view point on the output of the City. sam and frodo underneath / pippin and gandalf from their room 50 odd (?) miles away.

I wish Lawrence Mackore (sp.) would stop calling the fell beasts Nazgul!!! But he let out a clue to the Witch king's short delay on his steed. PJ told him that to act as if he 'knew' the Ring was nearby. Now we do get this impression in the book where Frodo is almost forced to hold up the Ring and hand it over to the Witch King (very much like movie Frodo does at the end of the Two Towers)

I love the look on Gollum's face after Sam has threatened him and started to climb up the wall - hatching his plans and looking pretty devious!!!

Originally Posted by Alatar

Why doesn’t Gandalf just buffalo his way past the guard and light the thing? He could even just throw Pip up to the fire. Why not clunk Denethor in the head a bit early and have him dive, flaming, onto it - wouldn’t that be funny/ironic? Why doesn’t Denethor call for aid? Even if he doesn’t want to turn the whole place over to Aragorn; still, I doubt that even if Gondor survives the coming storm that the populace would be happy with a Steward leader who did nothing to defend them, and may be more inclined towards someone, such as Aragorn, who made an effort. Denethor, by not calling for aid is shooting himself in the foot. And, while I’m on the topic, I can deal with a mad Steward if that Steward lost all sense AFTER his second son dies (or is near enough), but before?

Fair points, but, to me, Movie Denethor had already gone pretty mad before this, having visions of his dead Son, indeed (as book denethor) sending his surviving son on a Charge of the Light Brigade etc. I would say the Palantir has already taken over his mind somewhat. As for Gandalf running up and setting the flames on fire, he might have been stopped. sending up a little accomplace to do his dirty work was better for him. I'll comment on how I get over Denethor's face when he realises the beacons are lit when we get to this scene next time. It's taken me almost 3 years to work out a reason for it......!!!

I take it that the fog was thick enough for the gondorians to miss the torches of the orcs. It's only through the magic of movies that we can see through the fog ourselves......

This part of the scene, just before we see the orcs cross, where the screen pans down over the ruined walls and we see some men behind them - it looks SO BAD cgi wise. But noone on the commentaries comments on it. Is it my TV or do the walls really badly blend into the background, like some cheap 80's sci fi movie?

[alatar]

Originally Posted by Saurreg

I wonder what would have made Jackson script that the Gondorians would be so complacent in the face of an enemy strongly entrenched on the Eastern banks and intend on river crossing? I always had the impression that the Gondorians in the book anticipated the Witch King's intentions correctly but were out numbered and out maneuvered.

I can understand, as you say, being outnumbered, but out-thought? Where are the wise captains that led Gondor? Hopefully not all floated down the Anduin in an elvish boat. Are we being prepared for the return of a hero? Anyway, I think that it's stated by some character in the movie that the east is quiet and that the orc garrison (too human, that) may have retreated so that they could attack from the north.

True, history recorded that the most astute commanders avoid pitched battles directly in the face of the enemy by crossing up or down river in the still of the night (Alexander at the Hydapseus comes to mind), but would any defender be willing to gamble that and place all his eggs in a basket?

Was it night or the darkness? And wasn't this just after Minas Morgul signalled that the war had begun? It's just a little too contrived and makes the Gondorians, including Faramir, look silly.

EDIT: Funny you should mention about the Overlord landings and question the wisdom of not stopping the enemy when they were still in the waters. Feldmarshall Von Rundstedt wanted to wait till the allies have all landed on the shore before attacking them while Rommel wanted to pick them off before they came close to the shore. Ultimately I think it depends on the numbers of the defenders and their resolve. The first solution will turn a meeting engagement general abet with slim advantages for a strong defender while the second conserves the strength of the defenders. Provided they are not over-stretched that is.

In this case, the orc advance could only be slowed, not stopped. However, Faramir could have made them pay for the crossing by shooting as many as possible. Orcs with arrows in them swim less well than those who haven't been shot and aren't in water in the first place. By the time the orcs make landfall, they immediately get an advantage from the terrain, as they can use the city ruins for cover just as well as the defenders.

Note that your point above also would depend on the terrain and what weapons one has at hand. Letting the Allies come ashore then bombing them to pieces may work if one had the ability, and maybe the planes, to do so. But due to the RAF...

[Saurreg]

Originally Posted by alatar

I can understand, as you say, being outnumbered, but out-thought? Where are the wise captains that led Gondor? Hopefully not all floated down the Anduin in an elvish boat. Are we being prepared for the return of a hero? Anyway, I think that it's stated by some character in the movie that the east is quiet and that the orc garrison (too human, that) may have retreated so that they could attack from the north.

Nah mate. When I stated out-maneuvered, I meant it literally as a component of maneuvere warfare. An engagement of attrition means that two opponents just crash into each other headlong and try to bleed the other dry. Maneuvere warfare avoids the bulk of the enemy's strength and instead goes for the weak points. In my opinion, the Witch-King of the books used a combination of both. A strong force to attack the Gondorians head on and tie them down while small but numerous landing parties cross the Anduin at various points and converge at the west end of Osiligath, severing the lines of communication with Minas Tirith.

This is what I think happened in the books:

When Faramir and his lieutenants found out that their all important lines of communication were compromised, they initiated a systematic withdrawal from the west bank of the Anduin towards the west end of Osiligath. In that way the enemy secured the western banks and the Gondorians were pushed out from the old city. Faramir then led the remnants of his battered garrison towards the make-shift wall at the edge of the pelennor before returning to Minas Tirith to report and await further instructions.

Was it night or the darkness? And wasn't this just after Minas Morgul signalled that the war had begun? It's just a little too contrived and makes the Gondorians, including Faramir, look silly.

Alexander's crossing? It was in the dead of the night aided by heavy rains. The great one divided his army into an infantry strong contingent and a cavalry stong one - he crossed the Hydapseus with the latter. In addition to the darkness of night and heavy rains, he had his infantry division led by Nearchus and Seleucus march up and down the north bank of the Hydapseus to distact the Indians and trick them into thinking that he was attempting a direct crossing.

Everything about the battles in RoTK looked contrived.

In this case, the orc advance could only be slowed, not stopped. However, Faramir could have made them pay for the crossing by shooting as many as possible. Orcs with arrows in them swim less well than those who haven't been shot and aren't in water in the first place. By the time the orcs make landfall, they immediately get an advantage from the terrain, as they can use the city ruins for cover just as well as the defenders.

IMO much better to withdraw while he could. Any attempts to defend the west bank would merely delay the enemy and add to his own resources being drained off. Follow the wisdom of Sun Zhi and von Clauswitz; fight only if you need to fight.

[alatar]

Originally Posted by Saurreg

Nah mate. When I stated out-maneuvered, I meant it literally as a component of maneuvere warfare. An engagement of attrition means that two opponents just crash into each other headlong and try to bleed the other dry. Maneuvere warfare avoids the bulk of the enemy's strength and instead goes for the weak points.

Okay; think that we're on the same page now as that's what was in my head as well. I'm sure other posters will be sure to hold us to the fact that this is a movie and not a real battle, and so maneuvers won't be that important (except when Rohan shows up).

In my opinion, the Witch-King of the books used a combination of both. A strong force to attack the Gondorians head on and tie them down while small but numerous landing parties cross the Anduin at various points and converge at the west end of Osiligath, severing the lines of communication with Minas Tirith.

His main goal, to me, was the bridge (or bridging area) as he could not get his large war machines across by boat/raft. I think that he had a force ready to attack the, well, bridge (the one that Boromir threw down) but needed a broader front to distract and weaken the enemy (who were surely in 'difficult' terrain and entrenched). If the WK landed enough forces, he could envelop the Gondorians defending the bridge area and destroy them. Once he bridges the Anduin, he could deal with any defenders that remained in West Osgiliath.

When Faramir and his lieutenants found out that their all important lines of communication were compromised, they initiated a systematic withdrawal from the west bank of the Anduin towards the west end of Osiligath. In that way the enemy secured the western banks and the Gondorians were pushed out from the old city. Faramir then led the remnants of his battered garrison towards the make-shift wall at the edge of the pelennor before returning to Minas Tirith to report and await further instructions.

Well put. Too bad PJ couldn't have shown some of Faramir's intelligence.

Everything about the battles in RoTK looked contrived.

Yes, but we're to overlook that because it's a movie. I would except that somewhere in the DVD appendices someone states that PJ wanted the battles to look as real as possible, as 'he knows battles or military strategy' or something.

IMO much better to withdraw while he could. Any attempts to defend the west bank would merely delay the enemy and add to his own resources being drained off. Follow the wisdom of Sun Zhi and von Clauswitz; fight only if you need to fight.

Agreed. Sauron obviously had a copy of The Art of War (and The Prince, I might add).

[Rikae]

Just a few comments on this sequence:
The stair? It looks like a cliff to me, with some scratches in it to suggest a stair - and while I realise that is more dramatic, if they are going to scale cliffs, why not do it somewhere other than the Witch-King's back yard? Yes, I realize it's essential to the plot, but they could have thought about the logical implications of making the stair nearly unclimbable (except to Sir Smeagol Hillary, of course.)
Regarding Minas Morgul: I never liked the neon green=undead equation, here or elsewhere. It doesn't seem quite as far off here as it does in the upcoming paths of the dead scene, but still, it bugs me. To me, neon green says "hippie" or "early 80's", rather than "undead monsters", but maybe I'm the only one who feels that way. *shrug*
There is one orc among those attacing Osgiliath who quite obviously throws both arms above his head and runs into a sword. "Geronimo!" - it's actually pretty comical.
Oh, by the way, I realise everybody's sick of hearing me mention this guy, but that wasn't Lawrence Mackore calling the fell beasts nazgul ... it was Andy Serkis.. You see, his voice was the "added demonic force" given to the Witch King that allows him to break Gandalf's staff (sticking my tongue out at PJ, not you!)

[alatar]

Originally Posted by Rikae

The stair? It looks like a cliff to me, with some scratches in it to suggest a stair - and while I realise that is more dramatic, if they are going to scale cliffs, why not do it somewhere other than the Witch-King's back yard? Yes, I realize it's essential to the plot, but they could have thought about the logical implications of making the stair nearly unclimbable (except to Sir Smeagol Hillary, of course.)

PJ may have been trapped between the book and a moreMoreMORE place. I've noted previously that Peter Jackson likes to inflate things - we'll see the Witch-King's mace that's ridiculously huge (made so as a joke, but accepted by PJ) - and so the Straight Stairs had to be more than just a steep and long set of stairs. I've climbed up and down the step of the Pyramid of Kukulcan (Chitzen Itza). Others have considered those steep, but having worked on ladders for part of my life, I thought the climb easy. Anyway, these 'stairs,' as you say, are but breaks in a cliff wall. And, like Minas Morgul, weren't these steps made by the Men of the West?

Regarding Minas Morgul: I never liked the neon green=undead equation, here or elsewhere. It doesn't seem quite as far off here as it does in the upcoming paths of the dead scene, but still, it bugs me. To me, neon green says "hippie" or "early 80's", rather than "undead monsters", but maybe I'm the only one who feels that way. *shrug*

What's wrong with the Glorious 80's? Note that I never ever dressed like Don Johnson of Miami Vice fame.

There is one orc among those attacing Osgiliath who quite obviously throws both arms above his head and runs into a sword. "Geronimo!" - it's actually pretty comical.

Sauron, with numbers to lose, had designated 'sword jumpers' who would encumber the enemy while an armed Orc attacked (The Dark Lord considers..."Hmm, we have twice the number of soldiers as weapons. Maybe what we need is a really good marketing campaign." 'Be the first Orc in your troop to get one of the enemy's swords - here's how'). I'm sure that that's how it would get explained, along with some note about it being the 'intent of Tolkien.'

[Essex]

Originally Posted by alatar

I've climbed up and down the step of the Pyramid of Kukulcan (Chitzen Itza). Others have considered those steep, but having worked on ladders for part of my life, I thought the climb easy.

I've climbed up them as well, but I have to admit they're a lot harder to come DOWN than go up! I went down slowly on my behind like my two year old goes down the steps at home!!!

[alatar]

Originally Posted by Essex

I've climbed up them as well, but I have to admit they're a lot harder to come DOWN than go up! I went down slowly on my behind like my two year old goes down the steps at home!!!

I saw people doing the same and couldn't figure out what the problem was as I could walk down ladders in the same manner (as long as they are at the proper angle and not exceedingly high) as it saved time to take two hands-full of tools down from the roof. Regardless, I'd hate to take a tumble down the pyramid steps, as that stone would hurt.

There are stadium seats, way up in the peanut gallery ("peanut heaven" to the locals), that require a steep climb as well. I'm amazed that there aren't more step-related deaths at sporting events...maybe that's why alcoholic beverages at the same are so expensive to (1) decrease consumption and (2) pay the insurance premium.

What now doesn't make much sense is the way looked steep, yet Frodo, Sam and Gollum reach a plateau where they watch the Army of Morgul pass by (less than 20 feet up?). Was this plateau on the side? Can't place it with the initial 'large cliff with stairs' picture.

[Elladan and Elrohir]

I thought the stairs stunk in the movie. One of the few places where I was really disappointed. I picture actual stairs in the book, not this haphazard rock carving.