Other magic Rings?

[Sardy]

Forgive me if this is something unique to the films. I've read the Trilogy, Sil, Hobbit, and HoME several times and can't recall whether Gandalf's line "There are many magic rings in this world, Frodo Baggins, and none of them should be taken lightly" was unique to the films or if it also appeared in the books.

But either way, the question remains: What other sorts of magic rings (or other artifacts) existed in ME, and where did they come from? And how common were they that Gandalf, despite his words to Frodo, considered them "harmless" enough (or at least unpresuming enough) that he didn't immediately jump to the conclusion that Bilbo's was a ring of power?

I'm more curious about the "every day" magical items in ME, as opposed to the more unique and powerful items (Galadriel's mirror, the staffs of the wizards, the morgul blades, etc.)

[Raynor]

"There are many magic rings in this world, Frodo Baggins, and none of them should be taken lightly"

I think that the closest to this is found in the Shadow of the past:

The lesser rings were only essays in the craft before it was full-grown, and to the Elven-smiths they were but trifles – yet still to my mind dangerous for mortals.

What other sorts of magic rings (or other artifacts) existed in ME, and where did they come from?

Drugs and dwarves too made magic objects (pukel men - and the doors of Moria, the spells the dwarves put on the treasure they burried in Hobbit, or that nice verse - the dwarves of yore made mighty spells, while hammers fell).

[narfforc]

Bilbo had a set of magic cuff-links I seem to remember.

[Rune Son of Bjarne]

He did, I think that Dale and the Lonely Mountain produced alot of magic items around the start TFOTR

[Lalwendë]

Don't forget there's also Saruman's Ring.

Are the Pukel Men magical? I think that they may have been made to impress at some point, and possibly to frighten (especially as they mark the approach to a ritual landscape) but any of that aspect has long since left them, certainly to the Rohirrim.

At each turn of the road there were great standing stones that had been carved in the likeness of men, huge and clumsy-limbed, squatting cross-legged with their stumpy arms folded on fat bellies. Some in the wearing of the years had lost all features save the dark holes of their eyes that still stared sadly at the passers-by. The Riders hardly glanced at them. The Pukel-men they called them, and heeded them little: no power or terror was left in them; but Merry gazed at them with wonder and a feeling almost of pity, as they loomed up mournfully in the dusk.

Such was the dark Dunharrow, the work of long-forgotten men. Their name was lost and no song or legend remembered it. For what purpose they had made this place, as a town or secret temple or a tomb of kings, none in Rohan could say. Here they laboured in the Dark Years, before ever a ship came to the western shores, or Gondor of the Dunedain was built; and now they had vanished, and only the old Pukel-men were left, still sitting at the turnings of the road.

The actual Paths of the Dead still retain a feeling of terror though, not least due to the old story of Baldor's end; this is a neat turn by Tolkien as many megalithic remains have folklore attached which can include scary tales.

Did the Druedain create the Pukel-men? It looks as though they could or they couldn't:

He was short-legged and fat-armed, thick and stumpy, and clad only with grass about his waist. Merry felt that he had seen him before somewhere, and suddenly he remembered the Pukel-men of Dunharrow. Here was one of those old images brought to life, or maybe a creature descended in true line through endless years from the models used by the forgotten craftsmen long ago.

Though if we apply real archaeological theory to the story, they could not have created these structures, as to create them would have taken an organised, fixed society with tremendous spare resources, and the Druedain we see are hunter gatherers, who did not create such monuments. Although there is the possibility that some of the Druedain went to Numenor and returned; maybe they could have created such a place through increased wealth gained in Numenor? I think maybe there is the possibility that it was in fact ordinary Gondorians or Edain (or toher Men, but not the Druedain) in a forgotten time who created these monuments, as Ghan-Buri-Ghan says the following about Gondorians:

Many paths were made when Stonehouse-folk were stronger. They carved hills as hunters carve beast-flesh. Wild Men think they ate stone for food. They went through Druadan to Rimmon with great wains. They go no longer.

Maybe its just that the Rohirrim have attributed these mysterious structures to the Druedain with no real understanding of either the history of the place they took over or the people they took over, as their ignorance is displayed in the fact that they have hunted the Druedain as though they were beasts.

[Rune Son of Bjarne]

Well according to UT the Drúedain of Beleriand could have had magical powers at least that was the belief. Apparantly they could give some of their own power to a statue that would then guard a house/what ever in their place.

[Boromir88]

Don't forget there's also Saruman's Ring.~Lalwende

I doubt Saruman's ring did anything except serve as a boost of arrogance, in the way that he is emmulating Sauron. I think we can even question whether Saruman had even made this ring or not.

[Raynor]

Originally Posted by Lal

Did the Druedain create the Pukel-men?

Both HoME XII and Unfinished Tales credit them:

Originally Posted by The Atani and their languages, HoME XII

and they had or were credited with strange or magical powers. (The tales, such as 'The Faithful Stone', that speak of their transferring part of their 'powers' to their artefacts, remind one in miniature of Sauron's transference of power to the foundation of the Barad-dur and to the Ruling Ring.) Also the Drugs were a frugal folk, and ate sparingly even in times of peace and plenty, and drank nothing but water. In some ways they resembled rather the Dwarves: in build and stature and endurance (though not in hair); in their skill in carving stone; in the grim side of their character; and in ',strange powers'. Though the 'magic' skills with which the Dwarves were credited were quite different; also the Dwarves were much grimmer; and they were long-lived, whereas the Drugs were short-lived compared with other kinds of Men.

Originally Posted by The Druedain, UT

Indeed, though they held the Druedain in love and trust, many of the Folk of Haleth believed that they possessed uncanny and magical powers; and among their tales of marvels there were several that told of such things. One of these is recorded here.

THe tale of the the Faithful stone is rather interesting: a drug, Aghan, leaves this watching stone to guard Barach, of Haleth's, and his family. They are attacked at night by two orcs, who want to burn them, but the stone transforms into a drug, kills an orc and puts off the fire with his feet.

Edit: cross-posting with Rune...

Originally Posted by Boromir88

I doubt Saruman's ring did anything except serve as a boost of arrogance, in the way that he is emmulating Sauron. I think we can even question whether Saruman had even made this ring or not.

He does say "For I am Saruman the Wise, Saruman Ring-maker, Saruman of Many Colours! " cf. Council of Elrond. Would he make a completely void claim, after all the time he spent on ring-lore? I rather doubt it.

[Lalwendë]

Originally Posted by Rune Son of Bjarne

Well according to UT the Drúedain of Beleriand could have had magical powers at least that was the belief. Apparantly they could give some of their own power to a statue that would then guard a house/what ever in their place.

The story The Faithful Stone? That's an interesting tale, but it always looks to me as though the Stone was almost totemic, or even a placebo, making Barach believe he was protected, when in actual fact it was Aghan who killed the Orcs - as shown by his wounds.

EDIT: spookily cross posted with Raynor!

The part from HoME is also in UT (if someone hasn't got that volume of HoME, this is where you'll also find the info). Anyway, I always take this talk of 'magic' ascribed to the Druedain to a simple lack of understanding of these people. Our ancient ancestors have in the past been given 'magical' powers (e.g. saying Merlin 'flew' Stonehenge in from Ireland!) when the truth is that we simply did not understand those people. I see the same reflected in Middle-earth and the suspicious reactions of the more 'civilised' when dealing with a secretive hunter-gatherer order of Men.

[Rune Son of Bjarne]

Well Aghan was at his brother and he did say that "when you transfer some of you powers to things you made, then you will have to recive some of the pain/damage" (I only have the danish edition)

It would also have been a great hassle for him to brake the stone, burn its feet and place it on a dead orc, just to make such a "prank"

[Raynor]

Originally Posted by Lalwendë

The story The Faithful Stone? That's an interesting tale, but it always looks to me as though the Stone was almost totemic, or even a placebo, making Barach believe he was protected, when in actual fact it was Aghan who killed the Orcs - as shown by his wounds.

EDIT: spookily cross posted with Raynor!

Well, the explanation given is somewhat in tune with thier magic:"if some power passes from you to a thing that you have made, then you must take a share in its hurts".

It looks like we are all cross-posting tonight

Edit: cross-posted with Rune, yet again

[Lalwendë]

I'd like it to be true that they did have access to some lost form of knowledge that defied rational explanation, but stories like that are common in folklore around the world, and reason can be found behind them. Maybe ascribing the power of positive thinking to the events in this story is me applying too much modern knowledge to them. I'd go further to say that Aghan may have indeed killed the Orc but did not wish to make Barach feel 'obliged' in any way, and so may have said it was due to magical powers. In fact, Aghan may have truly believed it was due to magical powers whereas he may actually have been in a trance, such as Shamans go into in order to endure unbelievable pain.

Originally Posted by Boromir88

I doubt Saruman's ring did anything except serve as a boost of arrogance, in the way that he is emmulating Sauron. I think we can even question whether Saruman had even made this ring or not.

Saruman certainly had the knowledge to attempt to create a Ring of Power, so I don't doubt that he could make one and that it would have some kind of power. But it would never be like the Rings of the rhyme as it lacked the essence of those Rings, especially the One as part of Sauron was poured into the creation of that.

Now if I can accept that, why am I resisting accepting The Faithful Stone story?

[Boromir88]

Saruman certainly had the knowledge to attempt to create a Ring of Power, so I don't doubt that he could make one and that it would have some kind of power.

Of course there is no difinitive answer to it, I think. Both sides can be supported and argued by using the same quotes, just a matter of how you interpret it.

It's clear that Saruman did have a Ring, as Gandalf remarks in The Council of Elrond. Which means either:

1. Saruman had made actually made this ring, with the knowledge that he gained from studying them.

2. It was one he found, came across, and he wore it to boost his arrogance as being like Sauron.

Personally I believe it's Number 2, as there is I think way too slight evidence to prove Saruman had made his own ring. In an early draft there is this quote:

"He wore a ring on his finger...

...and it was at one time rumoured that he had come near the secret of their making."~Home VII Treason of Isengard

This reference which may lead to reader's implying that Saruman had made his Ring is removed from what finally appears in The Lord of the Rings. What appears in the Council of Elrond (the published version) is:

'He wore a ring on his finger.'

'For I am Saruman the Wise, Saruman Ring-maker, Saruman of Many colors!'~The Council of Elrond

There is no difference with the first quote, but Tolkien took out a possible reference to the reader believing Saruman had learned how to create a ring with...

'Saruman Ring-maker'

At first look, this may be solid proof that Saruman created his own ring, but let's look at it a bit further. Notice the capitilization, it is a title, it is a name. If we look at A Shadow of the Past, Ring-maker is actually a name given to Sauron:

'Behind that there was something else at work, beyond any design of the Ring-maker.'

So, Ring-maker is actually a name Gandalf gives to Sauron. And Saruman takes up this title he is now Saruman Ring-maker. Admittingly you can interpret this a few ways, you can believe that Saruman created his own ring and took up a title given to Sauron.

Or, you can think that Saruman just wanted to appear like he was Sauron and he was boosting his pride in that he was emmulating Sauron. He found a Ring, and now he was Ring-maker, symbolizing that he was Sauron. And perhaps jealousy has a factor in this matter as well. We find out that Saruman knew Gandalf had been given one of the Elven-Rings and became jealous because of this:

'And the Grey Messenger took the ring , and kept it secret; yet the White Messenger (who was skilled to uncover all secrets) after a time became aware of this gift, and begrudged it, and it was the beginning of the hidden ill-will that he bore the Grey,which afterwards became manifest.'~The Istari

I think it was a combination of Saruman's jealousy that Gandalf had a ring, and he didn't, and the fact that he was trying to emmulate he had the power of Sauron that feuled him to finding a Ring and taking up the name as Saruman Ring-maker.

I think it's just questionable, and we can't definitively say either. Personally, I think the text is way to slim and circumstantial to believe that Saruman created the Ring because of the reasons given above.