Silmarillion - Ainulindale

[Aiwendil]

The Quenta Silmarillion itself is preceded by two short works, the first of which is the Ainulindale, Tolkien’s “cosmogonical” myth. Rather than beginning in medias res, Tolkien starts his tale literally at the very beginning, with the creation of the world. I feel I must confess up front that the Ainulindale is one of my favorite pieces of writing, by Tolkien or by anyone else.

It is interesting to compare the Ainulindale with other creation myths. Perhaps the most obvious comparison one can make is with the Judeo-Christian creation story told in Genesis. We know, of course, that Tolkien was Catholic; but I think that there are as many interesting differences between the Ainulindale and Genesis as there are similarities. One thing that strikes me is the crucial role that the Ainur play in the creation, which doesn’t seem to be mirrored by anything in the Judeo-Christian story.

A survey of other creation myths – Greek, Norse, Egyptian, etc. – might also shed interesting light on the Ainulindale. From the little I know about these various stories, it seems to me that Tolkien’s creation myth is at once quite novel and firmly in the tradition of “real” origin stories.

Tolkien chose to have his world created through song. What does this say about it? Perhaps it would be more accurate to say that his world was designed through song, for it is only when Iluvatar speaks the word of command – Ea! – that Arda is brought into actual existence. The power ascribed to a word is perhaps not so surprising, considering Tolkien’s profession. It also calls to mind the New Testament – “In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.” Though I wonder whether to see some connection here is to mistakenly read elements of Tolkien’s real life and religion into his sub-creation.

Another point on which the same question arises is the “Secret Fire” or the “Flame Imperishable”. We are never told what exactly this is, though it appears to be some kind of creative force, and it is said to be “with Iluvatar”. Might this be related to the “Holy Spirit” of Christian theology? Or would that, again, be a misreading?

Many further questions can be raised about the Music of the Ainur (perhaps it is this slightly enigmatic quality of the work that makes it so appealing). For instance, is all of creation embodied in the Music? If so, what implications does that raise for free will in Arda? What is the significance of the three themes of Iluvatar? We are told that the Children – Men and Elves – entered only in the third theme; what then is the significance of the Second? Tolkien deals with some of these issues in several texts found in HoMe X, but more often than not, these explications only raise further questions.

The textual history of the Ainulindale is unusually simple. The first version is “The Music of the Ainur”, found in the Book of Lost Tales. It was to a revision of this text written in the 1930s that Tolkien first gave the title “Ainulindale”; a further revision followed the completion of LotR. Christopher Tolkien notes that this is the only section of the Silmarillion for which there is a direct lineage, as it were, of manuscripts, each one a revision of the last. In fact, many turns of phrase in the original Tale are strikingly similar to the final text, written nearly thirty years later. One wonders why it is that, while so many of the stories in the Silmarillion were in constant flux, the creation story proved so enduring.

One curiosity in the history of the Ainulindale is a divergent version, which Christopher calls Ainulindale C*. In this, which appears to be the first post-LotR revision of the story, the cosmology is altered so that the Earth is round and the Sun and Moon in existence from the beginning. The subsequent revisions reverse this change, but years later Tolkien would again consider making such radical alterations to the cosmology of his Legendarium.

Additional readings:
HoMe I, “The Music of the Ainur” (for the earliest version of the story)
HoMe V, “Ainulindale” (for the 1930s revision)
HoMe X, “Ainulindale” (for the post-LotR revisions)
HoMe X, author’s commentary on “Athrabeth Finrod ah Andreth” (for Tolkien’s musings on some issues related to the Ainulindale)
HoMe X, “Myths Transformed” (for the late cosmological changes)

[Raynor]

Originally Posted by Aiwendil

I feel I must confess up front that the Ainulindale is one of my favorite pieces of writing, by Tolkien or by anyone else.

I think you spoke for most (all) of Barrowdown

Originally Posted by Aiwendil

One thing that strikes me is the crucial role that the Ainur play in the creation, which doesn’t seem to be mirrored by anything in the Judeo-Christian story.

Then again, that is downplayed by the fact that all themes originate in Iluvatar: "and thou, Melkor, shalt see that no theme may be played that hath not its uttermost source in me"

Originally Posted by Aiwendil

Though I wonder whether to see some connection here is to mistakenly read elements of Tolkien’s real life and religion into his sub-creation.

In his view, myth-making is to return to our initial state, before the Fall, and it reflects God's Truth. Imo, these are all of Christian nature to him.

Originally Posted by Aiwendil

We are never told what exactly this is, though it appears to be some kind of creative force, and it is said to be “with Iluvatar”.

Clyde S. Kilby notes in his book "Tolkien as Christian Writer" that:

Professor Tolkien talked to me at some length about the use of the word "holy" in The Silmarillion. Very specifically he told me that the "Secret Fire sent to burn at the heart of the world" in the beginning was the Holy Spirit

Originally Posted by Aiwendil

For instance, is all of creation embodied in the Music?

.
No:

Originally Posted by Ainulindale

Yet some things there are that they cannot see, neither alone nor taking counsel together; for to none but himself has Iluvatar revealed all that he has in store, and in every age there come forth things that are new and have no foretelling, for they do not proceed from the past.

Originally Posted by Aiwendil

If so, what implications does that raise for free will in Arda?

Free will operates within certain limits:

Originally Posted by Letter #153

Free Will is derivative, and is only operative within provided circumstances; but in order that it may exist, it is necessary that the Author should guarantee it, whatever betides : sc. when it is 'against His Will', as we say, at any rate as it appears on a finite view. He does not stop or make 'unreal' sinful acts and their consequences.

[piosenniel]

Originally Posted by Aiwendil

I feel I must confess up front that the Ainulindale is one of my favorite pieces of writing, by Tolkien or by anyone else.

The Ainulindalë, for me, is one of the loveliest oral/aural pieces I've come across. It has a rhythm and flow to it that is very pleasant to my ear . . . the repetition of sounds in the sentences and how the words are put together or spaced apart reminds me at times of a river's water sliding over stones of differing sizes, over sandy bars, and bumping with varying degrees of force against those things which have fallen into it before flowing on again.

I have to say, when I first got a copy of the Silmarillion, sometime in the late '70's, I found it rather a dry read. Histories have never captured my interest; and it was difficult to switch from reading Tolkien as an exciting novelist to Tolkien the historian. Suffice it to say, it took me a long time to read through it.

I've found it much easier to listen to the writings in the Silmarillion than to read them. Tolkien, that way, comes through as still the great story-teller for me when I listen to the Sil.

And for those who might also find it a bit ponderous to plow through, I'd like to recommend the boxed set (13 CD's) read by Martin Shaw.

~*~ Pio


In the still of the night, in the world's ancient light . . . I'll be with you when the deal goes down . . . ~ Bob Dylan

[Rune Son of Bjarne]

Originally Posted by Pio

The Ainulindalë, for me, is one of the loveliest oral/aural pieces I've come across. It has a rhythm and flow to it that is very pleasant to my ear . . . the repetition of sounds in the sentences and how the words are put together or spaced apart reminds me at times of a river's water sliding over stones of differing sizes, over sandy bars, and bumping with varying degrees of force against those things which have fallen into it before flowing on again.

It is funny how different we read the Sil. We all love it, but it is very different things that intrique us. I for one found Ainulindalë kind of dry and dull, especially the first time I read it. Just a creation that needed to be there, where as I found the rest of the Sil thrilling almost more exiting than LotR. I am sure it is my love for history and historical works that shines through here. After reading about how pio expirience the Ainulindalë, it makes me wonder if I read through it to quickly or is just prejudice towards it. I would hate missing out at something so wonderful as pio describes it.

I guess I see the Ainulindalë as an intro that explains a few things, but realy confusses me more. Well it did the first time I read it.

Originally Posted by Aiwendil

It is interesting to compare the Ainulindale with other creation myths. Perhaps the most obvious comparison one can make is with the Judeo-Christian creation story told in Genesis. We know, of course, that Tolkien was Catholic; but I think that there are as many interesting differences between the Ainulindale and Genesis as there are similarities. One thing that strikes me is the crucial role that the Ainur play in the creation, which doesn’t seem to be mirrored by anything in the Judeo-Christian story.

A survey of other creation myths – Greek, Norse, Egyptian, etc. – might also shed interesting light on the Ainulindale. From the little I know about these various stories, it seems to me that Tolkien’s creation myth is at once quite novel and firmly in the tradition of “real” origin stories.

I agree that the most obvious creation myth is the Judeo-Christian, but then again I don't know the Egyptian and it has been some time since I read the Greek and Norse.

I do see some simulareties in Norse and Greek with Ainulindale, although they are not that clear. Of course you have the "theme of Melkor" wich is some sort of rebelion, if my memorie does not fail me you also have a rebeilion in these two myths. How ever the rebellions succede in these. I am sure there are others and better simulareties, but in the end I think the Ainulindale is more like the Judeo-Christian creation myth than anyothers. With the one god who creates it all.

[Formendacil]

Originally Posted by Rune Son of Bjarne

I am sure there are others and better simulareties, but in the end I think the Ainulindale is more like the Judeo-Christian creation myth than anyothers. With the one god who creates it all.

But, of course, this is, one could almost say, the very PURPOSE of the Ainulindalë: to reconcile, for Middle-Earth, a monotheistic and a polytheistic tradition. Any Tolkien scholar worth his Legolas cut-out knows that the Valar are Arda's equivalent of the Greek/Norse/Egyptian/other pagan gods, fulfilling much the same role in the story. Tolkien clearly loved the Norse and Greek mythologies, and Middle-Earth is an attempt to create legends in the same vein (well, some of it is...). But with this he had to reconcile his monotheistic belief- a belief overpowering enough that he could not bring himself to write of a world where there was NOT a one, true God. In this, of course, Tolkien isn't really helped by his assertion that Middle-Earth IS (or, rather, WAS) our world. If he believed in a one God in our world today, then if Middle-Earth is to be "genuinely feigned" it must also have one God.

But that is to recap what we all already know...

I too must join the ranks of those whose clamouring voices love the Ainulindalë. 'Tis no coincidence, methinks, that it survived from the "Music of the Ainur" not so much changed, as it was expanded. The tale has, as noted, a natural flow and rhythm to it. I note this particularly in the use of the THREE musical themes, and the repetitious use of "Ilúvatar stood and raised (a) hand(s), and his countenance was (XXX)". In this, the Ainulindalë becomes reminiscent of various fairy tales, such as "The Three Little Pigs", or "Goldilocks and the Three Bears". It gives the Ainulindalë a very clear feeling of having been composed by the Eldar in Valinor, drawing from such as the Valar were able/willing to tell them. Which, of course, is what it is feigned to be. In the unaltered texts, the Ainulindalë is ascribed to Rúmil of Tirion.

[Mister Underhill]

Originally Posted by pio

I have to say, when I first got a copy of the Silmarillion, sometime in the late '70s, I found it rather a dry read. Histories have never captured my interest; and it was difficult to switch from reading Tolkien as an exciting novelist to Tolkien the historian. Suffice it to say, it took me a long time to read through it.

I think a lot of would-be Silmarillion readers stumble over the Ainulindalë. It's a long way from either An Un- or A Long-expected Party in tone and style. I stumbled on it in the 70's; in fact I don't think I even made it to the Quenta proper back in those days. I didn't get through the Silm until after I joined the Downs.

I won't belabor the praise already offered, except to add that I think the idea of a world conceived in song is a quite extraordinarily beautiful one. There's something so primally dramatic -- and hopeful -- in the image of order and harmony triumphantly incorporating and overcoming Melkor's attempts to ruin the Music with his discord.

[Anguirel]

I'm writing blind at the moment, since of course now the Silmarillion is being discussed I find myself without a copy...I'll remedy that at the library tomorrow.

Anyway. I love the Silmarillion, as is easy enough to gather. I love it more than the Lord of the Rings, actually; the grand style, the epic heroes in defeat, the absence of small furry-footed ones...

I first tried to read it, I think, when I was eight or nine, not long after I finished the Lord of the Rings. But I was collared by the Ainulindale and gave up. I was only to make another foray four years later.

Here's my sort of list of credits and debits about the Ainulindale-

Credits

Sheer aesthetic beauty
The power of song (surely pinched by C.S. Lewis in the Magician's Nephew, a book I loved long ere I saw the Silmarillion)
A certain kind of Miltonic majesty

Debits

Distance of characters. These Ainur are the first and most powerful creations of the One. No Elves, let alone men, in sight
Sparcity of characters-let's face it, it's essentially Illuvatar and Melkor; the rest of the Ainur remain a faceless chorus, from what I remember anyway
Lack of a hero...or is there?

No, ladies and gentlemen, there is most certainly a hero in this chapter. And his name, in my opinion, is He Who Arises In Might.

I definitely find myself of the devil's party at this stage. Here we have an individualist, a rebel, defying a horde of nameless goody-goodies and even winning some over. For much of the passage Illuvatar seems a repressive and staid father-God.

I say much of the passage because there is a benevolence and beautiful reassurance in Illuvatar's hints as to the workings of fate. Illuvatar's promise is something we will nurse and treasure throughout the darkest chapters of human/elven tragedy in the Silmarillion, as we watch our favourite characters be slain or tormented.

Somehow, it's all going to work for the best.

[piosenniel]

About Free Will:

Originally Posted by Raynor

Free will operates within certain limits:

"Quote:
Originally Posted by Letter #153
Free Will is derivative, and is only operative within provided circumstances; but in order that it may exist, it is necessary that the Author should guarantee it, whatever betides : sc. when it is 'against His Will', as we say, at any rate as it appears on a finite view. He does not stop or make 'unreal' sinful acts and their consequences"

It seems in the Ainulindalë that the Author doesn't just guarantee it, he actually seems to author the acts of Free Will, or at least has already taken into account the fact that they are going to occur:

Originally Posted by Ainulindalë

Then Ilúvatar spoke, and he said: 'Mighty are the Ainur, and mightiest among them is Melkor; but that he may know, and all the Ainur, that I am Ilúvatar, those things that ye have sung, I will show them forth, that ye may see what ye have done. And thou, Melkor, shalt see that no theme may be played that hath not its uttermost source in me, nor can any alter the music in my despite. For he that attempteth this shall prove but mine instrument in the devising of things more wonderful, which he himself hath not imagined

Rebel or Nameless Goody-goody - it seems the Author has already penned what will in the long run be happening.

Or did I misread this?

[Raynor]

Rebel or Nameless Goody-goody - it seems the Author has already penned what will in the long run be happening.

Well... Eru is named the "one wholly free Will and Agent" (letter #156); ultimately, _all_ creation, from Ainu to rocks, is a manifestation of Eru, so I don't see how any part of it could be wholly independent of him. But that doesn't preclude manifestations of individual free wills on a less than complete degree.

[mark12_30]

We are never told what exactly this is, though it appears to be some kind of creative force, and it is said to be “with Iluvatar”.

Clyde S. Kilby notes in his book "Tolkien as Christian Writer" that:
Quote:
Professor Tolkien talked to me at some length about the use of the word "holy" in The Silmarillion. Very specifically he told me that the "Secret Fire sent to burn at the heart of the world" in the beginning was the Holy Spirit

In terms of Middle-earth, what is 'the heart of the world'? Where is it?

[Bêthberry]

Thanks for a good opening to the discussion of The Silm, Aiwendil. I, too, have always enjoyed the Ainulindale, far more than other parts of The Silm. Perhaps it is due to the reason pio mentions, its aural quality.

I am by no means an expert in creation myths, yet I know a little bit of them. Perhaps I make a few very brief observations of some differences and others can explain them further. I hope the brevity of my comments will not be so simplified as to produce errors.

The theme of creation through music differs from many myths which begin with birth. In Greek myth, Gaia (earth) and Uranus (sky) produce children and grandchildren who themselves create plants, animals, stars. In Japanese myths, two gods in particular create mud islands which become (what comes to be called) Japan and their children become the sun, the moon, and the seas. In Iroquois myth, Sky Woman is pushed off the floating sky island by her husband who is irate at her pregnancy. Only the intervention of animals saves her in her fall so she can give birth to North America. (Well, what we know call North America.) Gender, however, is absent from Tolkien's cosmology--or rather, gender refers to only one sex--until the valar clothe themselves and even then gender seems to be simply an appropriation which enables them to be perceived or understood by the Children of Iluvatar--if I understand this passage correctly. Eru is identified in the second line of the story by the masculine pronoun and he alone is accorded the priviledge of supreme creation. Creation for Tolkien is thus a male perogative?

Nor do animals or plants take an active role in the creation of the world, as in the Iroquois myth.

Some other thoughts, which I will give shape and hue through questions: when were the Ainur given the Secret Fire? Only after they had found unison and harmony, when Iluvatar sang a Great Music to them? Yet the Children will be given the secret fire only after the end of days, when they will finally learn to "take Being in the moment of their utterance." What does this intriguing phrase mean? Does it signify the kind of unison which the Ainur achieved or does it suggest something different?

The other question has to do with The Void. What is this and why does Iluvatar initially leave it alone? Is it simply the chaos of other creation myths? What is the relationship between this "place"--if place it is--and the music? And, am I correct in understanding that time exists only once Iluvatar enunciates his famous "Ea" (which word I think also belongs to Babylonian creation myth). My mind boggles at music outside of time--a music without a succession of notes?

a neophyte's thoughts.

[Laitoste]

Originally Posted by piosenniel

The repetition of sounds in the sentences and how the words are put together or spaced apart reminds me at times of a river's water sliding over stones of differing sizes, over sandy bars, and bumping with varying degrees of force against those things which have fallen into it before flowing on again.

In many creation myths, from Judeo-Christian to Native American, the earth is created either out of of in spite of water. It strikes me that water is similar to music. Many words that describe water also can be used to describe music; for example, in the Ainulindale, the second theme began "amid the storm", and the third theme was a "mere rippling" at first, then "took to to itself power and profundity" (5). What also intrigues me is that Ulmo was "of all most deeply...instructed by Iluvatar in music" (8). I think pio's comment on how the whole piece feels like water fits in well with this theme. But why is this important? Perhaps it lends the writing some sort of authenticity, because it is similar to what we all "know", and yet it is unique...other than that, I don't know.

Furthermore, I have to follow Anguirel's fascination with Melkor. He has substance, facets that the other Ainur (save Ulmo, maybe) lack. He gives us something to think about. Melkor actually DOES something for himself, because he wants to. And there wouldn't really be a point without him, would there?

I absolutely adore this selection (see pio's comment above). It took me awhile to understand what was going on, but once I got it, and listened to it aloud, it was amazing. I still hear Martin Shaw every time I read it!

[Lalwendë]

I like this creation myth as its a satisfying one. I venture to say I always found Genesis unsatisfying as we don't find out much about how the world is made, that immense period when there was no sentient life but gas and rocks and lava and water and winds. Tolkien gives us it:

Thus began the first battle of the Valar with Melkor for the dominion of Arda; and of those tumults the Elves know but little. For what has here been declared is come from the Valar themselves, with whom the Eldalie spoke in the land of Valinor, and by whom they were instructed; but little would the Valar ever tell of the wars before the coming of the Elves. Yet it is told among the Eldar that the Valar endeavoured ever, in despite of Melkor, to rule the Earth and to prepare it for the coming of the Firstborn; and they built lands and Melkor destroyed them; valleys they delved and Melkor raised them up; mountains they carved and Melkor
threw them down; seas they hollowed and Melkor spilled them; and naught might have peace or come to lasting growth, for as surely as the Valar began a labour so would Melkor undo it or corrupt it. And yet their labour was not all in vain; and though nowhere and in no work was their will and purpose wholly fulfilled, and all things were in hue and shape other than the Valar had at first intended, slowly nonetheless the Earth was fashioned and made firm. And thus was the habitation of the Children of Iluvatar established at the last in the Deeps of Time and amidst the innumerable stars

The metaphor of Gods battling one another to create and shape, and re-shape, a world is not only colourful but it works in comparison to both what we know about Geology and works in context of a secondary world which has Gods. We know our world was created over billions of years of erosion, attrition, creation of sedementary rocks, emergence of new chemical combinations etc, whole continents shifted across the globe, constantly reforming (and still are, as India continues to move North two inches per year). I find that poetic myself, but Tolkien puts it beautifully. The Ainur also embody aspects of the world that was created, and the metaphor of Air (Manwe) and Water (Ulmo) combining to create rain is beautiful:

Then Ulmo answered: Truly, Water is become now fairer than my heart imagined, neither had my secret thought conceived the snowflake, nor in all my music was contained the falling of the rain. I will seek Manwe, that he and I may make melodies for ever to thy delight!' And Manwe and Ulmo have from the beginning been allied

The Ainur are real Gods in the most ancient sense in that they are allowed to dream up this world and the flora within it, and they create in their own image, Illuvatar giving them the power to do so. Illuvatar simply creates the Ainur, then allows them to sing - Illuvatar then makes real what they have sung about and gives the world people to populate it. The Ainur are embodied in the physical aspects of this world, the elements and the weather; they reside in Arda, and they cannot leave it until the end of time (Arda time at least).

Does Melkor come across as cool? Well, read this:

His envy grew then the greater within him; and he also took visible form, but because of his mood and the malice that burned in him that form was dark and terrible. And he descended upon Arda in power and majesty greater than any other of the Valar, as a mountain that wades in the sea and has its head above the clouds and is clad in ice and crowned with smoke and fire; and the light of the eyes of Melkor was like a flame that withers with heat and pierces with a deadly cold

He sounds quite impressive to me.

One final thought for now. One thing really intrigues me. Illuvatar created many more Ainur than those we know about, and they stayed with him in the Void. I often get the impression that Eru was playing a little 'game' in getting his Ainur to sing and then showing them what that song would look like; some liked what they saw and wanted to go there (a little like how Tolkien fans like what they saw and some want to get a one-way ticket to Middle-earth ). Eru then just went "pfff!" and it existed, so those Ainur who liked it could go there and play with it. Oh and of course he added a few people too (as a doll's house with no dolls to sit on the chairs aint much fun).

If Eru was this tricksy (and Tricksy he was indeed, if the Ainur were "the offspring of his thought" he must have had something of the Melkor about him alongside the cuddly stuff) what was to stop him getting the rest of the Ainur to have further sing songs and creating other worlds?

[Aiwendil]

Some interesting thoughts from everyone. I think that both Piosenniel and Mister Underhill have annunciated what I find so appealing about this work; there's something very beautiful about the prose (even on the level of sound) as well as in the elegance of the concept. I'm a bit of a musician, and I've always found Tolkien's description of the music very evocative:

. . . and a sound arose of endless interchanging melodies woven in harmony that passed beyond hearing into the depths and into the heights, and the places of the dwelling of Iluvatar were filled to overflowing, and the music and the echo of the music went out into the Void, and it was not void.

But perhaps my favorite passage is:

In the midst of this strife, whereat the halls of Iluvatar shook and a tremor ran out into the silences yet unmoved, Iluvatar arose a third time, and his face was terrible to behold. Then he raised up both his hands, and in one chord, deeper than the Abyss, higher than the Firmament, piercing as the light of the eye of Iluvatar, the Music ceased.

A suggestion of the end of the world (Dagor Dagorath), perhaps?

Raynor wrote:

Well... Eru is named the "one wholly free Will and Agent" (letter #156); ultimately, _all_ creation, from Ainu to rocks, is a manifestation of Eru

I'm not sure I agree. Certainly everything in the world was created by Iluvatar, but surely that's different from everything being a manifestation of him.

Bethberry wrote:

Eru is identified in the second line of the story by the masculine pronoun and he alone is accorded the priviledge of supreme creation. Creation for Tolkien is thus a male perogative?

One could say the same about Judeo-Christianity, of course. Certainly there's a kind of sexism there, but I think there are two possible types to be distinguished; is it conceptual or linguistic sexism? In other words, is it true that Iluvatar is fundamentally "male", or is this a case of the masculine pronoun being used as a sort of default for a person of unspecified sex (something that happens in English all the time)? If you ask me, the former offense is significantly graver than the latter.

when were the Ainur given the Secret Fire?

An interesting question. A related one is: if the Ainur were "kindled with the Flamer Imperishable", why did Melkor spend so much time seeking the Secret Fire in the Void? I have always understood the text to mean not that the Ainur were given the Secret Fire (as Melkor wanted) but simply that Iluvatar had created them using the Secret Fire - and that as a result, they have a kind of sub-creative ability.

What it means for the Secret Fire to be "at the heart of the World", as [i]Mark12_30[/b] inquires, is another mystery.

And, am I correct in understanding that time exists only once Iluvatar enunciates his famous "Ea" (which word I think also belongs to Babylonian creation myth). My mind boggles at music outside of time--a music without a succession of notes?

I remember having some discussion of this point in a thread long ago, but its name escapes me. What I said there was that, in my view, stories about places "without time" invariably do seem to involve time. Without time, nothing happens. There could be no creation, no thought, etc., etc. I've therefore always understood the "Timeless Halls" of Iluvatar not to be "timeless" in that sense - perhaps, rather, timeless in that they are eternal.

Laitoste wrote:

It strikes me that water is similar to music. Many words that describe water also can be used to describe music; for example, in the Ainulindale, the second theme began "amid the storm", and the third theme was a "mere rippling" at first, then "took to to itself power and profundity" (5). What also intrigues me is that Ulmo was "of all most deeply...instructed by Iluvatar in music" (8).

A very good point. It seems to me that Tolkien continually associates water and music. Aren't the Teleri (the Elves closest to Ulmo and most enamoured of the Sea) said to be great musicians? I also seem to recall some statement (somewhere in HoMe, perhaps) to the effect that an echo of the Music of the Ainur lives still in the seas and the rivers of the world.

Edit: cross-posted with Lalwende

[Lalwendë]

Originally Posted by Aiwendil

I remember having some discussion of this point in a thread long ago, but its name escapes me. What I said there was that, in my view, stories about places "without time" invariably [i]do seem to involve time. Without time, nothing happens. There could be no creation, no thought, etc., etc. I've therefore always understood the "Timeless Halls" of Iluvatar not to be "timeless" in that sense - perhaps, rather, timeless in that they are eternal.

I would say that Time is a construct of mortal people, a way of dviding and conquering the space that's alloted to us in existence. To someone immortal, who lived in a place that had no mortality, Time would be irrelevant; there would be no need to measure existence so Time would not need to exist.

Although current scientific thought suggests that there is no such thing as eternity as the Universe will cease to exist entirely at some point. So for us, even if we had lived since the first days of Homo Sapiens and would live to the last days, there has to be Time.

If Eru is outside even the Universe (could he be?) then he could exist outside the boundary of Time. Though there must be time for the Ainur as they were created so at least they have a beginning - Eru, it seems, does not.

[Raynor]

Originally Posted by Lal

I would say that Time is a construct of mortal people, a way of dviding and conquering the space that's alloted to us in existence. To someone immortal, who lived in a place that had no mortality, Time would be irrelevant; there would be no need to measure existence so Time would not need to exist.

Interestingly enough, Tolkien had a different conception of time than that found in Silmarillion (where the creation of Ea marks the begining of time):

Originally Posted by The hiding of Valinor, HoME I

Nay, it is but the Music of the Ainur: for behold, who are we, Danuin, Ranuin, and Fanuin, Day and Month and Year, but the children of Aluin, of Time, who is the oldest of the Ainur, and is beyond, and subject to Iluvatar; and thence came we, and thither go we now

[Lalwendë]

Time, personified, like Chronos. I don't know which one reflects Tolkien's own perception of Time, how could we know? But it certainly shows the differences between the earlier and later versions of the world he created. The latter I think is more simple, leaving space for the reader to think about and discuss the nature of Time in his work, so is preferable to me. I'm not sure that having Eru outside Time but living alongside him works?

[Laitoste]

Originally Posted by Aiwendil

A very good point. It seems to me that Tolkien continually associates water and music. Aren't the Teleri (the Elves closest to Ulmo and most enamoured of the Sea) said to be great musicians?

Are they? If so, they would fit the image I have of music being associated with the sea...perhaps because of relaxing images and calming music?

Originally Posted by Aiwendil

I also seem to recall some statement (somewhere in HoMe, perhaps) to the effect that an echo of the Music of the Ainur lives still in the seas and the rivers of the world.

Are you talking about this passage?

Originally Posted by Valaquenta

Ulmo speaks to those who dwell in Middle-Earth with voices that are heard only as the music of the water. For all seas, lakes, rivers, fountains, and springs are in his government, so that the Elves say that the spirit of Ulmo runs in all the veins of the world.

I've not read HoME yet...but if this is the passage, you're getting a bit ahead of yourself! But it makes sense. Ulmo is the Valar most connected to Arda, so it follows that he would continue to make music and "create" thoughts in Elves and Men...

[Raynor]

Originally Posted by Laitoste

Are they? If so, they would fit the image I have of music being associated with the sea...perhaps because of relaxing images and calming music?

The Teleri are called the Lindar, the singers; moreover:

Originally Posted by Of Eldamar and the princes of Eldalie, Silmarillion

Thus it came to be that the Teleri, who were from the beginning lovers of water, and the fairest singers of all the Elves, were after enamoured of the seas, and their songs were filled with the sound of waves upon the shore.

Originally Posted by Laitoste

Are you talking about this passage?


I've not read HoME yet...but if this is the passage, you're getting a bit ahead of yourself! But it makes sense. Ulmo is the Valar most connected to Arda, so it follows that he would continue to make music and "create" thoughts in Elves and Men...

I think this is the passasge in question:

Originally Posted by Ainulindale, Silmarillion

And it is said by the Eldar that in water there lives yet the echo of the Music of the Ainur more than in any substance else that is in this Earth; and many of the Children of Iluvatar hearken still unsated to the voices of the Sea, and yet know not for what they listen.

[Aiwendil]

Originally Posted by Ainulindale, Silmarillion
And it is said by the Eldar that in water there lives yet the echo of the Music of the Ainur more than in any substance else that is in this Earth; and many of the Children of Iluvatar hearken still unsated to the voices of the Sea, and yet know not for what they listen.

Well, no wonder I 'seemed to recall reading it somewhere' - I just read it a few days ago in the Ainulindale before starting this discussion! Thanks, Raynor.

[Alchisiel]

For myself I'm not a big fan of the Ainulindale, but I do like how Arda began with one word-"Ea." I always preferred the stories of the Elves and the forefathers of Men.

I always thought that the story of Middle Earth and the beginning of Arda had religious undertones. Even though it has been said that Tolkien didn't intend for it to be.

I always took the heart of the world to mean the center of the universe, the core of all things.

Oringinally Posted by Lalwendë:
The Ainur are embodied in the physical aspects of this world, the elements and the weather;

Not unlike Old Man Winter, and Mother Nature?

[The Squatter of Amon Rûdh]

That passage from Ainulindalë was present in exactly the same form in the 1930s version, and as early as The Book of Lost Tales, Ulmo's music and that of water have a strangely hypnotic and alluring effect. I suspect that Tolkien felt the sea-longing himself at some level, and that this may be the source of this long-lived and oft-recurring theme.

What strikes me about Ainulindalë, other than the sheer gravitas and poetry of it, is how complete a form it had reached at such an early stage. I went looking for the passage alluded to by Aiwendil in the earlier version first of all, then re-read the version published in the 1977 Silmarillion, and there are long sections that simply haven't changed. Tolkien got it right first time, and his later changes are only improvements to what is already a fascinating work of imagination.

As for comparisons, had Formendacil not got there first I would have pointed out that Tolkien's myths attempt to reconcile polytheistic and monotheistic belief systems. I do find it interesting that there is so little of the strange Norse creation myth from Gylfaginning in this tale (save the association of evil with cold). Still, since the Norse world is made from the dismembered remains of a murdered aboriginal giant, who was created by a cow licking a block of ice, perhaps that's not so surprising after all. Has anyone looked into the Kalevala? It seems to me that the power of song might well form a strong component of some of those myths. Then again, Tolkien was a great lover of music and sometimes lamented that he had never learned to play an instrument himself. Interestingly, Mrs. Tolkien was an accomplished pianist: I wonder if that has any significance. Certainly I find the idea very effective that water carries some primeval music involved in the creation of the world; and it contrasts strikingly with the blasphemous piping so beloved of Lovecraft's Other Gods.

[Bêthberry]

Originally Posted by Aiwendil

One could say the same about Judeo-Christianity, of course. Certainly there's a kind of sexism there, but I think there are two possible types to be distinguished; is it conceptual or linguistic sexism? In other words, is it true that Iluvatar is fundamentally "male", or is this a case of the masculine pronoun being used as a sort of default for a person of unspecified sex (something that happens in English all the time)? If you ask me, the former offense is significantly graver than the latter.

There's been a fair bit of thought and discussion gone into this idea that one can distinguish a conceptual from a linguistic notion and much of it has demonstrated that this idea of a default unspecified gender reference is an erroneous concept--that always, at some place, the lack of specificity falls down, and in its place lies the defining position of one particular specified gender. Tolkien was writing before this became an issue in linguistics of course, which suggests that his use of language will demonstrate the gender traits linguist scholars have since recognised.

Given that Tolkien has--as Formendacil pointed out--begun his mythology with monotheistic creation and that creation uses the metaphor of song/music rather than the birth metaphor of many other creation myths (not all of them use such metaphors of course), I think it is difficult to argue that Iluvatar/Eru would be a gender-inclusive creator. (Although there is mention in Ainulindule that the Valar clothe themselves in male and female forms, not one female name is given here. One would think that, if the Valar or Iluvatar himself were not gender specific, at least some of the Ainur named therein would be female.) There is some research to suggest that in the Judeo-Christian tradition which you mention, there is archeological evidence to demonstrate that the ancient Israelite tribes did have a female goddess who was usurpt and occluded by the rise of monotheistic thought.

Originally Posted by Lal

If Eru was this tricksy (and Tricksy he was indeed, if the Ainur were "the offspring of his thought" he must have had something of the Melkor about him alongside the cuddly stuff)

This is the logical conundrum of monotheism, isn't it? It's possible to see Iluvatar's boast about his powers as the source of Melkor's own pride.

Originally Posted by Ainulindale

The one [music] was deep and wide and beautiful, but slow and blended with an immeasurable sorrow, from which its beauty chiefly came.

Until this point, hasn't beauty been associated with harmony? Yet now sorrow is held the prime source of beauty. Interesting.

[Child of the 7th Age]

Has anyone looked into the Kalevala? It seems to me that the power of song might well form a strong component of some of those myths.

Squatter - I think you are right to look in that direction. I am no expert but did invest in a paperback English translation and am enjoying sitting down and reading these poems.

I see one definite similarity between the Kalevala and Tolkien's creation myth. Song stands at the center of both. At the beginning of the first poem even before the creation is discussed, Lönnrot speaks long of his desire to compose a song that recalls the old days and the things his mother taught him:

It is my desire,/it is my wish
to set out to sing,/to begin to recite,
to let a song of our clan glide on,/to sing a family lay
The words are melting in my tongue,/being scattered about on my teeth.

The word "song" and "singer" are repeated numerous times.

Lönnrot also placed song at the heart of his actual creation through the character of Väinämöinen. He is son of the primal goddess Ilmatar, and was said to possess a potent, magical voice. He was floating at sea, when a bird came and laid eggs on his knee. These eggs were destroyed by a wave, but their pieces became the world. The upper cover became the sky dome, the yolk the sun. My words fail to do justice to the beauty of his poem, even in English translation:

Then I heard the a song being sung,/knew a lay to be composed:
in loneliness do the nights come upon us,/in loneliness do the days shine
bright upon us;
in loneliness Väinämöinen was born,/the eternal singer emerged
from the maiden who bore him,/from his air spirit mother.

Other than that, for the duration of the first poem, Lönnrot constantly employs terms related to water and the seas: bubbles, open seas, hidden reefs, misty billows etc. With all these references to water and eggs, I had clear images in the back of my head of a baby being born. This is beautiful stuff but more grounded in the earth and perhaps less ethereal than Tolkien.

To anyone out there who enjoys the Silm but hasn't read Kalevala, I would urge you to try it. It is sad that so few of us English speaking readers are familiar with it. And now perhaps there are some Downers out there with a background in Finnish who can speak to this poem with greater authority?

______________

I am not saying that Iluvatar the One and the primal Ilmatar are the same, but it's interesting how their names sound vaguely similar. I wonder what Ilmatar's name is in the original Finnish?

[Hilde Bracegirdle]

Wouldn’t the whole question of gender be irrelevant? There would be no point to gender differences in beings who create by means of song etc. For is not the difference in gender merely purposeful for reproduction in the natural world. Illuvatar has not need to reproduce, nor the Ainur. That is unless I am greatly mistaken. I do not recall any of them having children.

But we are looking at this through the eyes of a gendered people. The Valar chose forms according to their temperament, and I would think that this was mainly so the elves and men (who they were exposed to prematurely in the music) might perceive those Valar better. Or because the Valar might indentify with one gender or the other as a personal preferance.

[Bêthberry]

Originally Posted by Hilde Bracegirdle

Wouldn’t the whole question of gender be irrelevant? There would be no point to gender differences in beings who create by means of song etc. For is not the difference in gender merely purposeful for reproduction in the natural world. Illuvatar has not need to reproduce, nor the Ainur. That is unless I am greatly mistaken. I do not recall any of them having children.

But we are looking at this through the eyes of a gendered people. The Valar chose forms according to their temperament, and I would think that this was mainly so the elves and men (who they were exposed to prematurely in the music) might perceive those Valar better. Or because the Valar might indentify with one gender or the other as a personal preferance.

This is an excellent point, Hilde and there is much to commend the idea, epescially the idea that we consider a wholly different perspective. What would the world be like, what would our life be like, had we not had this little necessity. Yet, like it or not, reproduction is a basic fact of organic life, whether sexual or asexual or cabbages and bees.

The gender issue is merely an example of how Tolkien's mythology differs from others. It can also, however, been seen as a gaping big hole in the cosmology. If a mythology of creation ignores a basic fact in favour of an asexual initial form of being, then one can ask how the later development of sexual being is regarded. The unfortunate consequence for much of human development is that, when male is defined as the main or true or essential form and female as the standby, then power inequity is inevitable. It is not only women who suffer, but children also.

Frankly, I don't know where this would lead in a discussion of The Silm. We can wonder why a Denethor even in madness would think he has the right to immolate his son, and to consider the nature of sub-creation and control over what one creates. What is the nature of human creativity and will? I just know that, as much as I enjoy Tolkien, there is always this aching lack as if something is missing, something is ignored, something is omitted. And it starts here with creation. For me. My opinion only.

[Hilde Bracegirdle]

A link to the Kalevala.

[davem]

Bethberry You might like this

[Lalwendë]

Just to follow on from Hilde and Bethberry (great points BTW), the Ainur were originally quite different, in that they had sex and had children. What does this change say about Tolkien?

Of course, again following on from what's been said about gender and power for a little off topic moment, the irony is that all foetuses start out as female.

[Bêthberry]

Originally Posted by davem

Bethberry You might like this

It's good for a laugh, davem, but as my points here suggest, it tells only half the story.

Originally Posted by Lal

the Ainur were originally quite different, in that they had sex and had children. What does this change say about Tolkien?

Of course, again following on from what's been said about gender and power for a little off topic moment, the irony is that all foetuses start out as female.

Amazing what a little science teaches, eh?

I am really intrigued by this change in the nature of the Ainur. Maybe I ought to check out HoMe?

[davem]

Originally Posted by Bêthberry

It's good for a laugh, davem, but as my points here suggest, it tells only half the story.

I actually found it more moving than the original for some reason - perhaps a hangover from my old active Pagan days.....

[Hilde Bracegirdle]

Originally Posted by Bêthberry

The gender issue is merely an example of how Tolkien's mythology differs from others. It can also, however, been seen as a gaping big hole in the cosmology. If a mythology of creation ignores a basic fact in favour of an asexual initial form of being, then one can ask how the later development of sexual being is regarded. The unfortunate consequence for much of human development is that, when male is defined as the main or true or essential form and female as the standby, then power inequity is inevitable. It is not only women who suffer, but children also.

It is unfortunate, and one does wonder if it is intentionally wrought in some cultures to validate authority. I have the feeling that 'intentionally' would be too strong a word. But in a patriarchal society, a male creator would naturally be assumed because the the myth would have sprung from a culture that valued male lineage . It does seem strange that if there is a creator of one sex or the other, that the other gender is brought about at all. To me it might be seen to imply that the creator might be incomplete in some aspect. But again creation stories are recorded by the supposed created in a way that they can best understand.

Originally Posted by Bêthberry

Frankly, I don't know where this would lead in a discussion of The Silm. We can wonder why a Denethor even in madness would think he has the right to immolate his son, and to consider the nature of sub-creation and control over what one creates. What is the nature of human creativity and will?

This brings to mind Melkor and Feanor.

And speaking of Melkor, it seems ironic and perhaps vaguely related that this one of the Ainur desires to find the Flame Imperishable, which seems to give the world it’s life and which besides being at the heart of the world, resides with Illuvatar. Does he think it the power behind Iluvatar’s creative force? Is this one reason he ‘kindled great fires’ and coveted the Earth ‘when it was yet young and full of flame’?

Another interesting thing to me is that Manwë is ‘the brother of Melkor in the mind of Ilúvatar.’ Somehow I cannot wrap my brain around it.

Also, regarding the Valar, these two things:

But this condition Illuvatar made, or it is necessity of their love, that their power should thenceforth be contained and bounded in the World, to be within it for ever, until it is complete, so that they are its life and it theirs Therefore they are named the Valar, the Powers of the World.

And yet there labor was not all in vain; and though nowhere and in no work was their will and purpose wholly fulfilled, and all things were in a hue and shape other than the Valar had at first intended.....

Has Melkor’s mischief in a way helped prevent in the other Valar a possessiveness that might go beyond Feanor’s? One can only wonder!

Originally Posted by Lalwendë

Just to follow on from Hilde and Bethberry (great points BTW), the Ainur were originally quite different, in that they had sex and had children. What does this change say about Tolkien?

Oh dear, I was forgetting Melian, wasn't I? I wonder if she would count, it being a mixed marriage and all

[Aiwendil]

Bethberry wrote:

There's been a fair bit of thought and discussion gone into this idea that one can distinguish a conceptual from a linguistic notion and much of it has demonstrated that this idea of a default unspecified gender reference is an erroneous concept--that always, at some place, the lack of specificity falls down, and in its place lies the defining position of one particular specified gender.

I agree and disagree. I agree in that I think it's correct that the idea of a default unspecified gender reference is an erroneous concept. In other words, when one uses the masculine pronoun in reference to a person whose gender is unknown or unspecified, this reflects certain underlying facts about the speaker's psychology/culture/socio-linguistic background. That is, "linguistic sexism" is real sexism.

However, I would still draw a distinction. Suppose a person says "Everyone should mind his own business". The speaker has used the masculine pronoun, but this does not necessarily mean that the speaker intended to make a statement only about men. The speaker may very well have viewed "his" as a neutral pronoun in this context - even if the speaker is wrong about it being neutral. What I'm trying to say, I suppose, is that someone who says "Everyone should mind his own business" does not necessarily mean to say "Every male person should mind his own business", much less "Every person should mind his own business, and my conception of 'personhood' is limited to males."

So, the way I see it, Tolkien's choice to use the masculine pronoun for Iluvatar does not necessarily imply that Tolkien was restricting creativity to males within his Legendarium. It certainly does imply that he had certain preconceived notions (perhaps not conscious ones) about the male-female dichotomy; and I do think that there is a kind of androcentrism and implied sexism in both his creation myth and the Judeo-Christian one.

[Bêthberry]

Originally Posted by Aiwendil

So, the way I see it, Tolkien's choice to use the masculine pronoun for Iluvatar does not necessarily imply that Tolkien was restricting creativity to males within his Legendarium. It certainly does imply that he had certain preconceived notions (perhaps not conscious ones) about the male-female dichotomy; and I do think that there is a kind of androcentrism and implied sexism in both his creation myth and the Judeo-Christian one.

Oh, I think you are right there. The point would be to see how this un/conscious prioritising of males plays out, if at all, in the story. (And it probably would be of greater understanding if the label 'sexist' were not used.)

By the by, there is that interesting letter of Tolkien to his son Michael. The Letters of course need to be kept in context and considered in light of many things and not taken as decrees absolute. Yet it is worth keeping these observations in mind:

Originally Posted by Tolkien, Letter #43, March 1941

No intent necessarily to deceive: sheer instinct: the servient, helpmeet instinct, generously warmed by desire and young blood. Under this impulse they can in fact often achieve very remarkable insight and understanding, even of things otherwise outside their natural range: for it is their gift to be receptive, stimulated, fertilized (in many other matters than the physical) by the male. Every teacher knows that. How quickly an intelligent woman can be taught, grasp his ideas, see his point -- and how (with rare exceptions) they can go no further, when they leave his hand, or when they cease to take a personal interest in him.

None of which is to diminish the fascinating job Tolkien has done in creating a new myth.

[davem]

Given that Tolkien was an Edwardian, & spent most of his life in a male dominated society, I suppose the most surprising thing about his work is how many strong female characters there are. If we look at the fantasy of William Morris, ER Eddison, Robert E Howard, Edgar Rice Burrows, Lord Dunsany, & even his friend & contemporary Lewis we don't find anything like the complex & significant female characters we find in Tolkien. We find fewer in the myths & legends that inspired him.

[Durelin]

Having learned about Aboriginal religion recently, I couldn’t help but think of it when I saw this thread. Though I’m still not exactly sure why…

In Aboriginal religion, creation itself is known as ‘dream time’ or ‘the dreaming,’ and the beginning of the physical world began with the beginning of dream time. Before there was a physical world, ‘waking time’ and ‘sleeping time’ were one in the same. Underneath the earth, everything that makes up everything in the physical world was asleep. Creation occurred when waking time and sleeping time were split, and dream time resulted.

The “Ancestors” were sort of supernatural beings that were asleep beneath the Earth, as well, and they awakened at creation, and gave shape to the landscape, formed living things, and the like. They created the first human beings, and organized them into different tribes, putting each tribe in the land where they should live, and giving them their traditions and customs.

The way they formed the land and life on the Earth was through music as they traveled all over the Earth. Afterwards, some of the Ancestors went back into the Earth to sleep, and left outlines of themselves in the landscape. Others stayed and became parts of the land themselves.

To me, the Ancestors seem a bit like the Ainur and Maiar. Really, the main striking resemblance is something that can be found in almost every religion: music.

Perhaps the Yoruba religion’s creation story shares some similarities, as well. The supreme being was Oldumare, and there was a creator of heaven and of earth: Oron and Aye, respectively. All of the other (a little) lesser spiritual deities are known as the Orishas. (There are also Ancestor spirits called the Egungun.)

The Orishas were created as sort of emissaries of Oldumare, and were formed because the god overflowed his boundaries with goodness and power and the like. They are essentially part of Oldumare, and each Orisha has a characteristic and “anti-characteristic” that they represent (essentially representing the entire spectrum of a characteristic). The Orishas were responsible for creating the land on earth.

I think the Orishas share a bit in common with the Maiar and Ainur, too, representing characteristics or ideas, and ‘created’ by Ilúvatar more as ideas than actual beings.

The connections are vague, at best, but these being two very old religions, it’s interesting to me to see just how easy it is to draw connections from any religion to another, and even (or maybe that should be ‘of course’) to a ‘fictional’ creation story. Music is a key part of pretty much all religions, which is curious. Perhaps that sort of unifying idea was what Tolkien had in mind. Of course, there’s no more distinct way to illustrate harmony than through music, I think.

And now I think perhaps it was a combination of the Aboriginal and Yoruba religions in my head that caused me to really think of the Ancestors as incredibly like the Ainur and/or Maiar. Ancestorishas, maybe.

I apologize for not really drawing any conclusions. Just wanted to toss ideas out there.

(Also, I apologize if any of my explanations concerning the religions are off. I am by no means an expert...)

And (I swear, this is the last disclaimer!), I am not beginning to declare that Tolkien was at all inspired by knowledge of these religions at all. Just pointing out interesting similarities, which are, in my opinion, inevitable, regardless of purpose (or lack thereof).

[Aldarion Elf-Friend]

I first tried to read the Silm back in high school in the 80s. Unlike a few here, I loved the Ainulindale the first time I read it, and stumbled over the Valaquenta, giving up on the Silm until a decade later (or more). Still, the Ainulindale is my favorite part of what has become my favorite of Tolkien's works. In college as a music major, I wanted, for my senior project, to write a piece of music based on the it, and still do. I ended up arranging the music for my wedding instead (still married 15 years later, BTW, so I probably made the better choice).

Anyway, here are some scattered and disorganized thoughts on the discussion as it has unfolded:

First, regarding the origin of evil, it is true that in any monotheistic worldview, the question of where did evil come from is a tricky one. The Judeo-Christian answer is that if God did not allow free choice, then true love could not exist, because for love to be real, it must be freely given. By the same token, if one is free to choose not to love, then one is free to choose evil. So, God created the framework for evil to exist, but not the actual evil itself. Here's the question I don't think will ever be answered this side of eternity - how did evil enter into the heart of Melkor (Satan).

Think about, created in perfection, wisdom beyond measure, living in the presence of the Creator, and still he rebelled. Anguirel might find something admirable in this, but to stand against what would be the most impressive, awesome, etc., sight in the universe and decide there must be something better is quite a leap, in my book.

(Does anyone know how Islam deals with the origin of evil question?)

Second, regarding the sex of the valar, when Tolkien rewrote the Ainulindale to eliminate the valar's offsrping, he made them somewhat closer to the angels of the Judeo-Christian tradition, but not completely. As LJ said to the Pharisees, angels "do not marry or are they given in marriage". At the same time, the Valar did espouse each other, but with the exception of Melian, did not copulate.

Melian has precedent, too. One common interpretation of the theme from Genesis where the Sons of God had intercourse with the daughters of men and produced the Nephilim, mighty men of old, men of reknown, was that fallen angels were impregnating human women, resulting in sort of supermen half-breeds.

One other interesting change, which will become more distinct in later chapters, is that Tolkien reduced the size of his pantheon. The earlier versions (all that I've read is Lost Tales) have additional "gods" of war and the like, that he eliminated for the final work. Could it be that Tolkien became more religiously conservative as he aged, and his writing reflected that?

[Rune Son of Bjarne]

Originally Posted by Pio

the repetition of sounds in the sentences and how the words are put together or spaced apart reminds me at times of a river's water sliding over stones of differing sizes, over sandy bars, and bumping with varying degrees of force against those things which have fallen into it before flowing on again.

It just struck me that this resembles the way Goldberry's voice is described in LotR.

[Aiwendil]

It just struck me that this resembles the way Goldberry's voice is described in LotR.

This is interesting, and it reminds me of a little idea I have about Tom Bombadil and Goldberry. My personal "theory" concerning Tom Bombadil is that he is not an incarnate in the same sense as Elves and Men, but rather a part of Arda itself, an intrinsic part of the world just like the mountains, the rivers, and the land. And he (as well as Goldberry) is constantly singing. Could this be a kind of echo of the Music of the Ainur, much like that still heard in the sea?

[Lalwendë]

Aiwendil, get yourself a cup of tea and read This thread from CbC where you brought this same idea about Tom up and there's a bit of discussion with you, Heren, davem and myself agreeing with it. Heren mentions something about Tom being like the Oxfordshire countryside, well, wasn't there a quote from Tolkien where he said Tom was the spirit of the disappearing Oxfordshire countryside?