Why did the Nazgul not succeed in Bree and on Weathertop?

Whenever reading through Book 1 of LOtR, I have the impression that the lucky outcome of these events seems unrealistic, even in the context of a fairy-tale like story. In my opinion, there are at least three points where the Nazgul really must have got the Ring:

First, the "Prancing Pony" in Bree: After Frodo's disappearance, they know that the Ring is in front of them. The Hobbits are not able to withstand them at this point, and neither do the people of Bree. Aragorn, as strong and brave he is, cannot do much either, apparently he does not have any (useable) weapon
at this time. Why did the Nazgul not dare to fight in this situation? The "standard" answer might be that they are just ghosts, but they are able to cut the Hobbit's pillows, so they must have some physical power.

The situation is even more striking at Wheathertop, where the company is alone, and Frodo is already seriously wounded.

The third point is the "Last Bridge" over the Greyflood river. With some knowledge of the geography of Eriador, this place must appear as the weakest point on the way to Rivendell to anyone. The Hobbits almost certainly have to cross this bridge, being far away from any help. Why do the Nazgul do not await and attack the company there? In contrast, at Bruinen ford, where they try their final attack, they must expect some powerful help to their enemies from Rivendell.

To summarize all this, the behaviour of the Nazgul seems very inconsequent to me, and this is unbelievable, given the price that they could win or lose: If they got the Ring in Eriador, the dark powers would have won forever. On the other hand, with the arrival of the Ring in Rivendell the war is in some sense already lost for Sauron & Co. He did of course not think of Gandalf's strategy that in the end causes his complete defeat, but from this point on he has to expect that some mighty person would conquer him using the Ring, which would almost certainly mean the end of his realm.

So, why did the Nazgul did not fight to the very end in this situation? Is it possible that -- deep in their heart -- they were still a bit human and did not really want Sauron's victory?

[Raynor]

One of the reason given in the book is Frodo calling on the name of Varda. The latest explanation comes from the Reader's Companion by Hammond and Schull:

Originally Posted by LotR: Reader's Companion notes to page 208

...the Witch-King, the great captain, was actually dismayed. He had been shaken by the fire of Gandalf, and began to perceive that the mission on which Sauron had sent him was one of great peril to himself both by the way and on his return to his Master (if unsuccessful); and he had been doing ill, so far achieving nothing save rousing the power of the Wise and directing them to the Ring. But above all the timid and terrified Bearer had resisted him, had dared to strike at him with an enchanted sword made by his own enemies long ago for his destruction. Narrowly it had missed him. How he had come by it – save in the Barrows of Cardolan. Then he was in some way mightier than the Barrow-wight; and he called on Elbereth, a name of terror to the Nazgûl. He was then in league with the High Elves of the Havens.

Escaping from a wound that would have been as deadly to him as the Mordor-knife to Frodo (as was proved in the end), he withdrew and hid for a while, out of doubt and fear both of Aragorn and especially of Frodo. But fear of Sauron…. was the stronger.

This is supported by statements in Sauron Defeated (HoME VI I believe) about the value of the swords, refferences which didn't make it in the final version.

[A_Brandybuck]

The Hunt of the Ring is a good reference to the movements of the Nazgûl. The following quotes are taken from Scull & Hammond: A Reader's Companion

There were only three Nazgûl in Bree and two left to attack the Hobbits, coming back the Road from Weathertop to Bree.

They reached Bree at dusk [on 29 September], and soon learn from the Isengard spy of the events of the Inn, and guess the presence of the Ring. One is sent to the [Witch-King][...]
[The other two] foiled in their attempt to capture Merry make plans for attack on the Inn at night. ... The Inn attacked by the two Riders in early hours before dawn. [...]
[The two Riders in Bree] go off in haste to find [the Witch-King] to report the bearer has gone (without waiting for further news)

The two Riders misinterpreted the absence of the Hobbits and thought they had gone before. Then the Witch-King (at the east-border of the Greenway) planed the pursuit.
Then Gandalf came into the story. He left Bree and overtook the Witch-King of the way to weathertop. Four of the Nazgûl started to pursuit him. The other five later attacked Aragorn and the Hobbits on weathertop.
Aragorn could banish them and the Nazgûl lost the trace. Tolkien therefore gave us some reasons.
For this there were probably several reasons, the least to be expected being the most important, namely that [the Witch-King], the great captain, was actually dismayed. He had been shaken by the fire of Gandalf, and began to perceive that the mission on which Sauron had sent him was one of great peril to himself both by the way, and on his return to his Master (if unsuccessful); and he had been doing ill, so far achieving nothing save rousing the power of the Wise and directing them to the Ring. But above all the timid and terrified Bearer had resisted him, had dared to strike at him with an enchanted sword made by his own enmiyies long ago for his destruction. Narrowly it has missed him. How he had come by it - save in the Barrows of Cardolan.
Then he was in some way mightier than the Barrow-Wight; and he called on Elbereth, a name of terror to the Nazgûl. He was the in league with the High Elves of the Havens.

Escaping a wound that would have been as deadly to him as the Mordor-knife to Frodo [...] he withdrew and hid for a while, out of doubt and fear both of Aragorn and especially of Frodo.

After that he patrol the Road and the Bridge. But Glorfindel drove the Riders from the Bridge.

EDIT: Cross-posting with Raynor...

[Lalwendë]

Originally Posted by Menelvagor

To summarize all this, the behaviour of the Nazgul seems very inconsequent to me, and this is unbelievable, given the price that they could win or lose: If they got the Ring in Eriador, the dark powers would have won forever. On the other hand, with the arrival of the Ring in Rivendell the war is in some sense already lost for Sauron & Co. He did of course not think of Gandalf's strategy that in the end causes his complete defeat, but from this point on he has to expect that some mighty person would conquer him using the Ring, which would almost certainly mean the end of his realm.

So, why did the Nazgul did not fight to the very end in this situation? Is it possible that -- deep in their heart -- they were still a bit human and did not really want Sauron's victory?

Bear in mind that to Sauron the last thing he'd think anyone would do would be to destroy the Ring. He would always have his 'banking card' that somebody would be foolish enough to try and use it to defeat him and then they too would fall to the power of the Ring. Look at all the daft suggestions made at the Council of Elrond - maybe not daft to those making them, but daft to us as readers because we know that this object belongs to and fully responds to Sauron alone.

[Nogrod]

I must admit to have wondered the same thing Menelvagor does here. Or at least the Weathertop-incident.

One could say that they just didn't find Frodo and the Ring in Bree. Plausible, perhaps. Although one is left with the question, why didn't they search more as they clearly terrorised everyone around and had the upper hand?

The Bruinen ford could be explained too, I think. Confusion, fastly changing situations and the spirit of the elven horse + the magic of the Rivendell etc.

But the Weathertop? Some halflings and one hero with torches against the Black Riders, against the Nazgûl? (Okay, it's laughable beyond even disbelief in the PJ adaptation!) Just compare their might and effect on the goodies later in the story! To my eyes they gain a lot of power between FotR and RotK. On Weathertop they drew back from a torch-wielding hobbit, in Minas Tirith the "newly-born" and mightily strengthened Gandalf has trouble dealing with them... Is this logical? I doubt that.

I think Raynor's and A Brandybuck's learned comments are worth noting, but still. On Weathertop they had their chance and chose to ran away. I'm a bit baffled about that, still am.

[Bêthberry]

I think the Nazgul failed for the same reason that the Eagles didn't fly the ring to Mount Doom.

We wouldn't have had as good a story then.

Seriously, I think readers (and the Fellowship?) need a taste of the power they face and the terror they will meet as a way of helping build suspense. We don't really know or understand what this terrible power is until as readers we 'experience' the Nazgul.*

*keeping in mind that Tolkien's version of Fairie is not as dark as some of the original fairy stories, tales and legends.

[The 1,000 Reader]

Forget all of the much later on dismay and such. The answer is not hard to see and rather simple:

If the Nazgul succeeded at likely points, the story wouldn't be that long and nowhere near as epic. All in all, whether you view it as Eru's will or Tolkien's power, it was done solely for the plot.

(Hey, at least the nazgul weren't put into as bad shoes as the humans in Halo.)

[The Saucepan Man]

Great material there from Raynor and the young Brandybuck. You learn something new every day ...

As for Weathertop, the Nazgul did at least partially succeed. The Witch-King stuck Frodo with a Morgul blade. He knew what the effects of that would be. At best (from the W-K's perspective), Frodo would succumb and become a Wraith himself. With no power to resist, he would don the Ring, slip away from his companions and easily be found by the Riders. At worst, it would slow down the companions' journey to Rivendell, possibly allowing the Riders to attack at full strength at a moment of their choosing.

Add to that the material provided by Raynor and A-Brandybuck, and it probably seemed to the Witch-King at that point that discretion was the best part of valour.

Of course, he didn't account for the fact that Glorfindel (and other Elves of Rivendell) were abroad - a foolish oversight, perhaps, but not one lacking in credibility. He underestimated the strength of Frodo's spirit - but how could have understood this? And he overlooked the healing skills of Aragorn (and the presence of athelas in the region) - something he should perhaps have had some conception of, but again not an oversight lacking in credibility.

Originally Posted by Nogrod

To my eyes they gain a lot of power between FotR and RotK. On Weathertop they drew back from a torch-wielding hobbit, in Minas Tirith the "newly-born" and mightily strengthened Gandalf has trouble dealing with them... Is this logical? I doubt that.

Tolkien states in one of his Letters that the Sauron imbued the Witch-King with added demonic force before the march on Gondor. So the Witch-King, at least, did gain power between FotR and RotK.

[Rumil]

I've also had the impression that the Nazgul became more powerful the closer they came to Sauron in Mordor. During the passage of the Dead Marshes Sam and Frodo were more terrified by the cries of the Nazgul than they had been in the Shire.

I wonder if this could be explained by the intervening rivers. Tolkien stated the the Nazgul were reluctant to cross running water, which seems peculiar, but similar stories are told of witches and sorcerors in folklore. It has been proposed that the runnning water interfered with their perception in some way (sort of messing with their vibes!), perhaps making them less sure and resolute in their actions than they would have been on 'home turf'.

[Michael Wilhelmson]

I was about to say that the Nazgul might not have been powerful enough at the time that they were sent out to find the Ring. The only real record of a Nazgul at the height of its power was during the Arnor-Angmar war, and that war was lost to the army of Gondor even with the Witch-King in charge. I had always assumed that Sauron's and their power was not yet great enough to directly fight, and that they were sent only to seek and capture the Ring from some Shirelings, not to fight in open battle.
But the time frame seems off on this. Not a few months later, the Nazgul were flying, and leading the armies of Mordor into combat. Even with a few distracted and weakened by Gandalf, being afraid of fire and water, hearing the name of Elbereth, being stabbed by a Numenorean dagger, fighting the King of Men himself, in a place of great Mannish and Elvish power, far from Mordor and their master, and being surprised and shocked by all of these events intersecting...there should have been no way that nine immortal phantom warriors could not have found and killed some hobbits and a Dunedain.

[The 1,000 Reader]

Like I said, ultimate author plot manipulation. The Nazgul were so deadly, only Tolkien himself could effectively save the hobbits.

[A_Brandybuck]

I think, that it is worth considering the fact, that the Nazgûl were abroad and deep in the 'enemies land'. Although they are very powerful in spreading fear, they had to be careful not to attract much attention, because there are enemies, which are more powerful then they are.

Taking Glorfindel as a example, who drove four Nazgûl from the Bridge and Gandalf was still 'lurking around'. There was a bunch of 'terrible' High-Elves in Rivendell and many Ranger in the wilderness.

And before weathertop, the Nazgûl weren't sure about the bearer of the Ring. That is, in my meaning, important to know to understand the behaviour of the Nazgûl in Bree. A direct attack could fail, if the bearer has been very powerful and could use the Ring. Especially because a Ranger with a powerful aura is with them.

[Anguirel]

I've just thought of an ingenious, flawless conspiracy theory.

We neet to examine the Nazgul at two stages-during the hunt for the Ring, and at the siege of Minas Tirith.

While searching for the Ring in the Shire, they're quite scary, but only because we're seeing them from the Hobbit point of view. They're a bit feeble and pathetic really. Gandalf can take all nine of them, Glorfindel four or five. Aragon can scare them with a fiery stick.

Nevertheless-as detailed above-despite being vulnerable shadows (ho-ho) of their former selves, at several points they could easily have grabbed the Hobbits and nabbed the Ring...so why didn't they?

Because, fair readers, if they had seized the Ring before it reached Rivendell and taken it to their master, they would be quite unnecessary to Sauron. The Dark Lord, all-powerful, would have no need to increase their power or reward them.

As it is, the Ring slipped through their fingers, they were needed to counter the threat of a possible King of Gondor with the Ring, and so they-most notably the Witch King-had vastly augmented might and command. At Minas Tirith the Nazgul are truly terrifying, riding their beasties from an older world, with dark-flamed blades, souped-up armour...

This was the state they wanted to attain. And so they let the Ring go...

[Raynor]

Originally Posted by A_Brandybuck

I think, that it is worth considering the fact, that the Nazgûl were abroad and deep in the 'enemies land'. Although they are very powerful in spreading fear, they had to be careful not to attract much attention, because there are enemies, which are more powerful then they are.

I agree; as stated in the Hunt for the ring, "but Sauron did not underesteem the powers and vigilance of the Wise, and the Nazgul were commanded to act as secretly as they could".

They're a bit feeble and pathetic really
...
This was the state they wanted to attain. And so they let the Ring go

I disagree with both ideas:

Originally Posted by Hunt for the ring, UT

At length he resolved that no others would serve him in this case but his mightiest servants, the Ringwraiths, who had no will but his own, being each utterly subservient to the ring that had enslaved him, which Sauron held.
Now few could understand even one of these fell creatures, and (as Sauron deemed) none could withstand them when gathered together under their terrible captain, the Lord of Morgul
...
They were by far the most powerful of his servants, and the most suitable for such a mission, since they were entirely enslaved to their Nine Rings, which he now himself held; they were quite incapable of acting against his will, and if one of them, even the Witch-king their captain, had seized the One Ring, he would have brought it back to his Master

Originally Posted by Letter #246

I do not think they could have attacked him with violence, nor laid hold upon him or taken him captive; they would have obeyed or feigned to obey any minor commands of his that did not interfere with their errand - laid upon them by Sauron, who still through their nine rings (which he held) had primary control of their wills.

[Anguirel]

Who'd 've thought it'd need a scholarly exegesis on Nazgul monoethelitism to disprove my frippery!

Pah. I still like the idea of a scheming Blackadder Witch-King...

[The 1,000 Reader]

They could have just killed Sauron and taken the ring for themselves in that case.

[Durelin]

Originally Posted by Rumil

I've also had the impression that the Nazgul became more powerful the closer they came to Sauron in Mordor. During the passage of the Dead Marshes Sam and Frodo were more terrified by the cries of the Nazgul than they had been in the Shire.

I think this was perhaps only because both Frodo and Sam, and particularly Frodo, had a much greater understanding of what the Nazgul really were. By TTT, Frodo had been carrying the Ring quite a while, feeling its weight, feeling the desire to give in to it... He understood what the wraiths were, and that, essentially, he could become quite like them. I'd say that's enough to cause quite a great deal more fear.

And then there's the simple aspect of being out of one's element - being far far away from home!

Still, you definitely have a good point there. It is perhaps logical that they would be stronger, but that might require more of a mystical connection between the Ringwraiths and Sauron than anyone might be willing to even imagine.

[Raynor]

I've also had the impression that the Nazgul became more powerful the closer they came to Sauron in Mordor. During the passage of the Dead Marshes Sam and Frodo were more terrified by the cries of the Nazgul than they had been in the Shire.

According to the Tale of Years, RotK, that event happens ~two weeks before the attack on Minas Tirith. Concerning the witch-king at that time, Tolkien stated:

Originally Posted by Letter #210

The Witch-king, their leader, is more powerful in all ways than the others; but he must not yet be raised to the stature of Vol. III. There, put in command by Sauron, he is given an added demonic force.

[The Squatter of Amon Rûdh]

I think it's worth quoting the above passage in full, since it reveals a lot about the innate powers of the Ringwraiths.

Originally Posted by J.R.R. Tolkien (Letters #210)

Their peril is almost entirely due to the unreasoning fear which they inspire (like ghosts). They have no great physical power against the fearless; but what they have, and the fear that they inspire, is enormously increased in darkness. The Witch-king, their leader, is more powerful in all ways than the others; but he must not yet be raised to the stature of Vol. III. There, put in command by Sauron, he is given an added demonic force. But even in the Battle of the Pelennor, the darkness had only just broken.

Therefore, Frodo's call to Elbereth and attack on his assailant succeed because he overcomes his fear, which is the Ringwraiths' chief weapon. Perhaps Cardinal Ximenez could be defeated in the same way, but that's another argument. Of course, knowing that Frodo had received a Morgul wound, which was enough to kill the great Ruling Steward Boromir (not to be confused with his namesake from the Fellowship), probably played a part as well. What would be the point of risking a fight with Aragorn (in which one or more of the Nazgul might themselves be destroyed, just as the Witch-King was by Eowyn) when the Ringbearer will soon become a lesser wraith himself? The Nazgul aren't really that powerful: they seem so only because of the fear they inspire. This, of course, makes more sense when one considers Sauron himself. He deals in treachery and betrayal, and those are things which he expects from his followers. Why would he want minions who were powerful enough to offer him resistance if the thought took them?

The presence of Aragorn at Weathertop and Glorfindel at the Ford of Bruinen, together with the surprise release of the floodwaters, are unexpected setbacks to the Nazgul. Sauron knows enough to know that hobbits are small and unwarlike, so his Ringwraiths ought to be enough to overcome four of them. It's only the presence of those factors that cause their efforts to fail so early in the story, even if one takes into account the hidden qualities of the hobbits themselves. It's a wonderful irony that those whose main weapon is fear are themselves so easily overcome by it.

[The 1,000 Reader]

There's a problem with that though. Fear or not, the Nazgul could still just shiv Frodo, which they did. Also, I doubt that Aragorn could have vanquished any Nazgul at that point with a broken blade. If anything, he'd be vanquished.

[Raynor]

This passage in TTT is rather puzzling, seeing how Mordor was desolate at the time of the making of the swords:

Originally Posted by The departure of Boromir, TTT

They were borne by the hobbits. Doubtless the Orcs despoiled them, but feared to keep the knives, knowing them for what they are: work of Westernesse, wound about with spells for the bane of Mordor

I found another interesting quote in the Reader's companion; it sheds more light on this

Originally Posted by Chapter 6: THE BATTLE OF THE PELENNOR FIELDS, page 564, LotR Companion, by Hammond and Scull

On 18 April and 6 May 1963, Tolkien wrote to Anneke C. Kloos-Adriaansen and P. Kloos that the incidents of the witch-king in Book I, Chapter 12, and of Merry's sword in the present chapter:

[alatar]

Surely a frequent poster to the Movies section will just love to read this, but the more I read it, the more I don't get the shiv at Weathertop.

Assuming we all know what does take place, let's recap what could have fared for fair Frodo as the Nazgul approach on Weathertop:

• Like every other hobbit on the scene, he swoons. Does the Witch-King stab his prone body? Can the King even see the hobbit?

• Frodo does not put on the Ring and stands his ground, sword and brand in hand with elvish words on his lips. Does the Witch-King attack?

• He gets shivved, Ring on, and dies immediately. What then?

What happens if the Witch-King hits his mark? If Frodo dies, wouldn't another of the party take the Ring to bear? Would Aragorn not be a somewhat better bearer ("Merry, Sam, Pip - we must bury the fallen. Why don't you guys start while I search for some...ah...athelas" Aragorn runs off eastward when their backs are turned.)? The Nazgul flee, and so the Ring stays with Frodo. If Frodo were to become a wraith, could he carry the Ring to the Nine?

Surely Frodo had the luck on that hill, but think that the Witch-King lucked out as well. By not killing him on Weathertop, and by horse-surfing the Bruinen, the Witch-King sets up the conditions for Frodo to hand deliver the Ring to its Master.

Conspiracy indeed.

[William Cloud Hicklin]

but they are able to cut the Hobbit's pillows, so they must have some physical power.

Um, no. That was Bill Ferney, the Isengarder, and (probably) Harry Goatleaf.

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Originally Posted by William Cloud Hicklin

Um, no. That was Bill Ferney, the Isengarder, and (probably) Harry Goatleaf.

Really? What's your support for this theory?

I know, there is that thing with them being afraid of attacking the Inn, but... I am not sure whether I'd buy this. "He's a thief, he's a liar, but he's not a murderer."

[Sir Kohran]

(Okay, it's laughable beyond even disbelief in the PJ adaptation!)

Actually I think it makes some more sense there, as in the PJ adaptation Aragorn actually has a proper sword in addition to a torch.

Does anyone know why Tolkien chose to have Aragorn, supposedly the best swordsman at the time and a man on an incredibly important and dangerous mission, go virtually unarmed?

[William Cloud Hicklin]

Quote:Originally Posted by William Cloud Hicklin
Um, no. That was Bill Ferney, the Isengarder, and (probably) Harry Goatleaf.

Really? What's your support for this theory?

'What will happen?' said Merry. 'Will they attack the inn?'
'No, I think not,' said Strider. 'They are not all here yet. And in any case that is not their way. In dark and loneliness they are strongest; they will not openly attack a house where there are lights and many people - not until they are desperate, not while all the long leagues of Eriador still lie before us. But their power is in terror, and already some in Bree are in their clutch. They will drive these wretches to some evil work: Ferny, and some of the strangers, and, maybe, the gatekeeper too.'


PJ's Ringwraiths are too corporeal, too physical: he tried to make them undead warriors rather than spectres of fear. If you think of the Black Riders as *ghosts* (cf Letter 210) they make much more sense.

[Ibrîniðilpathânezel]

I may have missed this in my reading of the topic (wonderful sinus infection, snurfle), but it seems to me that the Nazgul, and the Witch King in particular, have a powerful reason to be afraid of Frodo at Weathertop. The WK knows the prophecy that no Man will slay him -- and here stands a hobbit, armed with an Elvish blade, calling upon Elbereth, ready to take a poke at him. It would seem ludicrous if not for the fact that on the whole, the Nazgul are bullies, maintaining power through fear, and like all bullies, they are thrown for a loop when their targets suddenly stand up and start to fight back. Frodo is a creature comparatively new to the Nazgul; how many hobbits can they have seen before they left Mordor? (And we know that they have already demonstrated that they cannot be bought, and they will show resistance when threatened, via Farmer Maggot, at least.) This is a new race to them, and though they are small, the Nazgul probably know that one of their general kind survived the dungeons of Barad-dur (I'm going from memory here, and it's a bit foggy today, but I seem to recall Tolkien saying that Sauron didn't give up on Gollum just because he didn't know more details about Baggins and the Shire; he could not break his will, such was the nature of hobbit-kind). Gollum also had possession of the One Ring for centuries, and never faded into a wraith, as the Nazgul themselves already had, long ago. Knowing these things and little else about hobbits, I would think they would want to tread carefully around them. A small creature daring to wave a sword at them would be laughable in other circumstances, but in these, especially with Frodo in possession of the One -- their ultimate master -- I believe the Nazgul would have great reason not to laugh. Rather like the ruffians in the Shire, they were not used to the sight of "fearless hobbits with bright blades."

In general, it seems to me that their attacks are not those of people in a confident position of strength; they are attacks of bullies who rule through fear. And that kind of power is always undermined when faced with true courage. Just my two cents, as ever.

[alatar]

Originally Posted by Ibrîniðilpathânezel

In general, it seems to me that their attacks are not those of people in a confident position of strength; they are attacks of bullies who rule through fear. And that kind of power is always undermined when faced with true courage. Just my two cents, as ever.

In the Nazgul's entire history as wraiths, not once, not once was there a successful attack on one of them - unless there were more, and by the end of the Third Age we're down to Nine. If the prophecy propped up their chief, what maintained the other eight? It is incredulous that over the long years that no one - all those chief foes of the Nazgul that *created* the bright blades carried by the hobbits - hadn't bagged one of them, and yet the Five have a time of it in a dark dell occupied by three terrified hobbits, one somewhat terrified hobbit with a Ring that is in essence a curse, and a fire-wielding Ranger.

[Ibrîniðilpathânezel]

Originally Posted by alatar

It is incredulous that over the long years that no one - all those chief foes of the Nazgul that *created* the bright blades carried by the hobbits - hadn't bagged one of them.

That and the fact that the person who prophesied the end of the Witch King was himself not a Man but an Elf. One would think there would have been many non-men who would have had a chance (although what was meant by "man" has certainly provoked many a heated discussion, all by itself).

But this often seems to be the nature of prophecy, and fate: seemingly endless possibilities are blown because there is an intended person (or persons) who are to fulfill the prophecy, and no one else. Thousands of others who fill the criteria can be in what seems the right place and the right time, but not succeed because they are not, in actuality, the Intended One. This could go on and on into a debate over the definitions of fate or destiny within Tolkien's work, but that's a long discussion that I've seen before, and never with what anyone felt was a satisfying conclusion. In this case, the WK himself believed in the prophecy, enough to quote it on the field of battle. By the point he faced Eowyn and Merry, I think he had seen enough of hobbits to dismiss them as a threat to himself, but if Frodo was his first encounter with one -- especially one willing to fight -- it might have given him considerable pause. As far as the others go, they do not seem to be as strong, especially in terms of leadership, as the WK. Just my impression, of course.

[Nazgûl-king]

Well in Fellowship of the Ring Gandalf says that:

"The Ringwraiths are deadly enemies, but they are only shadows yet of the power and terror they would possess if the Ruling Ring was on their master's hand again."

Perhaps that had something to do with it, since Sauron did not have the Ring they were weaker.

[alatar]

Originally Posted by Ibrîniðilpathânezel

But this often seems to be the nature of prophecy, and fate: seemingly endless possibilities are blown because there is an intended person (or persons) who are to fulfill the prophecy, and no one else. Thousands of others who fill the criteria can be in what seems the right place and the right time, but not succeed because they are not, in actuality, the Intended One.

Sounds like prophecy is a little too self-fulfilling and circular. Who is the intended one? The one that fulfills the prophecy. Who fulfills the prophecy? Why, the intended one, of course.

That all said, I now have issue with the 'Frodo is a threat' argument. If on Weathertop Frodo is seen as a possible threat, however remote, and seemingly the Nazgul have some knowledge regarding Hobbits' inherent resistance (Gollum, Gaffer, Maggot), and then later, knowing that no hobbit wraith came a calling, would have to realize that Frodo survived the poisoned blade, why then would the Witch-King ignore Merry on the battlefield?

In this case, the WK himself believed in the prophecy, enough to quote it on the field of battle.

He just used it as yet another weapon - to demoralize his opponents. Had two men attacked and bested him, the Witch-King prophecy would have been fulfilled and we'd be none the wiser. "We are no man!"


And welcome to the Downs, Ibrîniðilpathânezel and Nazgûl-king.

[Ibrîniðilpathânezel]

Originally Posted by alatar

Sounds like prophecy is a little too self-fulfilling and circular. Who is the intended one? The one that fulfills the prophecy. Who fulfills the prophecy? Why, the intended one, of course.

That's always the catch-22 with prophecies whenever they don't come to pass, isn't it? "Oh, it just [/I]looked[/I] like that person was the intended one. There must've been something we didn't know about that was off."

And in some ways, that is the same kind of circular reasoning that could be running through the Nazguls' heads: This hobbit is holding the Ring. We're supposed to get the Ring away from him and get it back to Sauron to make him powerful again. But as long as Sauron doesn't have the Ring... well, he doesn't have the Ring, so this guy who does have it might just be a threat, 'cause, after all, nobody else has ever actually claimed the Ring and tried to use it, so how do we know this guy couldn't just up and decide, "hey, the Ring's mine, I'm gonna use it, so I'm gonna be your new master." If he does that and he's ticked off at us for trying to kill him or kidnap him, we could be in BIG trouble....

Okay, that made my head spin... or maybe it's the sinuses....

And thanks for the welcome, alatar.

[Sir Kohran]

The thing is that the Nazgul simply weren't particularly powerful. I mean, what power did they actually have? They carry swords, have nasty voices and that's pretty much it. Also they have a surprisingly high amount of weaknesses - fire, water and the very name of Elbereth. Heck, Aragorn by himself drove off five of them with a *torch*. He was able to make them flee without even drawing steel.

The Nazgul are somewhat like terrorists; the paranoia, uncertainty and overall psychological effect associated with them are in many ways more powerful than the actual beings themselves.

[William Cloud Hicklin]

Well, let's not underestimate the value of fear as a weapon.

Tolkien understood this thoroughly, having survived the Somme. When he spoke of Gondor's men under the Nazguls' wings going fetal, 'thinking only of crawling and hiding, and of death,' I'm sure he had seen that very thing, and probably experienced a touch of it himself.

Napoleon described battle as 'two large groups of men trying to frighten each other.' And of course Boney knew exactly what he was talking about. A battle is not won by killing everyone on the other side (usually only a small percentage get killed)- but rather inflicting so much punishment on them that their morale- that complex of factors involving discipline, training, tactical position, loyalty, esprit-de-corps etc etc etc, gives way to the basic instinct for self-preservation. You win by making the other side give up.

The so-called 'Third Generation' of board wargames began to incorporate this understanding back in the 1970s; units had a 'morale factor' which could be raised or lowered by various things, and when reduced to a certain point retreat, rout or surrender ensued. Many, many times I would have *loved* to have a couple of 'morale-killer' units which did no physical harm, but simply hit every enemy within range with a -5 morale penalty.

And that's just what the Nazgul were.

[skip spence]

As much as I love "The Fellowship of The Ring", I've always found the Weathertop episode rather ridiculos. I can see why they failed in Bree but at Weathertop they should have taken the ring, if they indeed were Sauron's deadliest servants. They knew it was there and attacked at night, unseen and led by their great captain. It should've ended there and then, if they had any power apart from fear.

And also, even if they did fail to win the ring at weathertop, how come they lost their trail and allowed their pray to get away? Did they just flee like headless chicken?

Originally Posted by The Squatter of Amon Rûdh

It's a wonderful irony that those whose main weapon is fear are themselves so easily overcome by it.

That is ironic. The most fearful creatures known to men scared ****less by a midget and a name. It's like a monster too afraid to come out from under a little kid's bed at night.

[davem]

Originally Posted by skip spence

That is ironic. The most fearful creatures known to men scared ****less by a midget and a name. It's like a monster too afraid to come out from under a little kid's bed at night.

My take is that its not simply a 'name' - Frodo invoked Elbereth, called down her protection, & she intervened directly - or at the very least the Nazgul feared that she might do so. However powerful the Nazgul might be in M-e Varda could have squished them without a thought.

[Boromir88]

However powerful the Nazgul might be in M-e Varda could have squished them without a thought.~davem

Isn't it also mentioned in The Silmarillion that even Morgoth (and all "dark" creatures) fear/hate Varda?

Calling upon Elbereth was important, but let's also not forget Frodo was wielding a blade that was specifically designed to take down the Witch-King:

...work of Westernesse, wound about with spells for the bane of Mordor.~The Departure of Boromir

As well as the tremendous courage Frodo showed. In an unpublished manuscript Tolkien wrote (that appears in Hammond and Scull's book)...

'But above all the timid and terified Bearer had resisted him, had dared to strike at him with an enchanted sword made by his own enemies long ago for his destruction. Narrowly it had missed him. How had he come by it -save in the barrows of cardolan. Then he was in some way mightier than the B{arrow} -wight; and he called on Elbereth, a name of terror to the nazgul. He was then in league with the High Elves ofthe Havens.

Escaping a wound that would have been as deadly to him as the Mordor -knife to Frodo (as was proved at the end), he withdrew and hid for a while, out of doubt and fear both of Aragorn and especially of Frodo. But fear of Sauron , and the forces of Sauron's will was the stronger

Frodo found the courage (during the night when the Nazgul have their greatest "fear factor") to lunge out and strike him...not only have the courage to take a swipe at him, but take a swipe at the Witch-King with an enchanted blade that was designed to destroy him.

As I said in another thread, the Witch-King has a tendancy to know when he is overmatched, and when he knows he is overmatched he has a tendancy to run away.

[skip spence]

Nah, I don't buy it.

Why would the Witch King be afraid of Frodo and the name of Varda if he wasn't a big sissy?

Frodo is less then four feet tall and although he had a tiny sword that could actually harm the nazguls the five of them should still have been able to deal with him easily to say the least. And with the ring on they could see Frodo clearly, whereas Aragorn and the others could not see the wraiths, which they would've known very well.

They must also have known that Varda was sitting with Manwë up on Taniquetil and wasn't going to Weathertop anytime soon. And she certainly could not squish even a bug with thought only.

And perhaps they were afraid of fire, but isn't that just another example of their sissyness? I mean, brands are no match for swords and would also cool off very quickly.

Actually, that name 'Elbereth' would be more deadly to the Witch King than Frodo's strike I always interpreted as grim sarcasm from Aragorn. You know, the brave but pathetic stab wasn't going to harm the Witch King at all, whereas the name 'Elbereth' at least hurt his feelings. I always figured they drew back because they took pleasure in tormenting their pray by prolonging their misery or something like that.

[Galendor]

Originally Posted by skip spence

And perhaps they were afraid of fire, but isn't that just another example of their sissyness? I mean, brands are no match for swords and would also cool off very quickly.

The wraiths are ghostly forms wearing black cloth robes. Regular swords might not hurt them - but Aragorn's fiery brand could have caught their robes on fire and burnt them up. Then the wraiths would find themselves completely naked and very far from home - a scary thought for anyone!

[Groin Redbeard]

Originally Posted by Nazgûl-king

Well in Fellowship of the Ring Gandalf says that:

"The Ringwraiths are deadly enemies, but they are only shadows yet of the power and terror they would possess if the Ruling Ring was on their master's hand again."

Perhaps that had something to do with it, since Sauron did not have the Ring they were weaker.

This is a good point. Sauron's power was totally destroyed, along with all of his minions, during the battle of the last alliance, but he slowly came back. Could this be true with the Nazgul? Could they have gradually gained power, but not complete power until Sauron had the Ring again? Very good point Nazgul King!