Visit The *EVEN NEWER* Barrow-Downs Photo Page |
08-28-2006, 12:39 AM | #1 |
Shade of Carn Dûm
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: 315, CNY Boys and girls.
Posts: 405
|
Legolas
Hi.
It's been a while. Almost a year actually, since I last logged onto The Barrow Downs. But I'm back, and with that I've got a short list of evidence pointing toward something I've been thinking about for like five years now, but which I only ever thought about when reading LOTR, which I haven't done in some time. I'm of the opinion that Legolas is in fact the drunken warden from the Hobbit - OR the elf who came downstairs and got drunk with him. I'll list why I think this. 1. Legolas expressed keen interest in Saruman's wine when Merry & Pippin were offering provender from the store house. You'd have to be pretty into wine to ... skip your king's big dinner party and get drunk in a stock room near the jail cells. (Sure, the argument can be made that many of the Mirkwood elves were fond of wine, rather than beer). 2. Legolas was in charge of prisoners in the halls of the Elf King in Mirkwood. Need proof? He personally recounted feeling pity for Gollum being locked in a cell, and letting Gollum out for walks and letting Gollum climb the tree to the Council of Elrond. 3. More proof? Gloin's mad comment about "you were not so kind to US" was aimed specifically at Legolas. He didn't say "your King showed less kindness to us". Familiarity? Oh heck yes. Even if Legolas wasn't the warden himself, if he was the other guy, the warden's friend ... he may still have been one of the elves who locked the 13 Dwarves up. 4. More proof after that? As the elf in error, Gollum escaped on his watch, hence he felt personally obligated to go break the news to Gandalf himself. So anyway, my theory has evidence to back it up ... and though it's hard to specifically tie Legolas down as the very warden Bilbo completely played for a fool, it's got good support. And if you buy into it ... it definitely adds another slant to the already interesting elf prince. Thanks.
__________________
"I come from yonder...Have you seen Baggins? Baggins has left, he is coming. He is not far away. I wish to find him. If he passes will you tell me? I will come back with gold." - Khamul the Easterling |
08-29-2006, 03:23 AM | #2 |
Byronic Brand
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: The 1590s
Posts: 2,778
|
I remember reading a fan-fic inspired by this theory.
Keeper, I don't think our careers have overlapped in the past, but I know of you-unliving legend... I rather like this idea, partly because it seems to be part of a body of evidence pointing to Legolas's relative lowliness; the way in which he is very much not a "Prince of Mirkwood". Perhaps he's a youngest son...
__________________
Among the friendly dead, being bad at games did not seem to matter -Il Lupo Fenriso |
08-30-2006, 04:52 PM | #3 |
Wight
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Barad-Dur
Posts: 196
|
Nice theory but I'm not sure Thranduil's son would be employed as a Jailer .
I am the Mouth of Sauron . Last edited by The Mouth of Sauron; 09-01-2006 at 06:11 PM. |
08-31-2006, 08:15 AM | #4 |
Auspicious Wraith
Join Date: May 2002
Location: The Netherlands
Posts: 4,859
|
It might be hard to see the King's son as performing such tasks, but then perhaps Thranduil was keen to install an ethic of hard and proper work in his son. Parents have to ensure their children do chores.
I like the idea.
__________________
Los Ingobernables de Harlond |
08-31-2006, 06:50 PM | #6 |
Odinic Wanderer
|
Intresting, but I don't buy it.
1. there is the argument the keeper brings up him self. The whole reasoning about " you are intrested in wine, there for it must be you who got drunk and let the prisonors escape a long time ago" just seem extremly shaky. Nothing I would base a theory on. 2. You got a point. . . but it is not bullet proof. 3. You werent nice to us. . . That sounds more like he is reffering to the people of the woodland realm. I have talked like that to people from other contries several time. It does not have to be Familiarity. I could say what happened the last time you played us. Refering to the time when Denmark beat England 4-1 in Football, but that does not mean that I played for Denmark and the guy I am talking to played for England. 4. Again, you got a point. I must admit I don't remember this part that well, I will have to re read it. I think you make some points, but mostly I think it is very shaky arguments. |
09-01-2006, 05:15 PM | #7 | ||||||
Shade of Carn Dûm
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: 315, CNY Boys and girls.
Posts: 405
|
Re:
I guess I'll point out a few more circumstantials.
Legolas sat quiet the entire council until it was deemed his part to speak. Others involved themselves in the conversations prior to that point, so he may have felt guilty and not wanted to bear bad news ... not that it emplicitly pegs him as being at fault feeling bad, or maybe as a Mirkwood elf he simply didn't have much say in matters concerning the Ring, since he didn't know of it. Quote:
I'll argue here that being in charge of prisoners in the elf realm of Mirkwood doesn't imply a lowly or measly task. I don't imagine in a place as nasty as the black woods they actually TAKE a lot of prisoners so when they did, they tended to be important prisoners (prisoners of state, even). Any and all prisoners they took were a big deal. Being in charge of prisoners could have been just one of Legolas' many tasks at home. Obviously we've seen him act in other capacities too ... like ambassador to Rivendell and warrior, and he's clearly pretty educated for a rustic elf. The prisons in a King's hall are a big deal. We're not talking lockholes at Mitchel Delving here. Those are Royal prisoners. Quote:
Quote:
Plus when Legolas finally relates the story of the escape, he's implicitly involved, and his use of the word "we" is too often used to be vague. Quote:
But then ... he must have been nearby at the least, because in the next paragraph he's involved again. Quote:
Quote:
"We", (my people). Because obviously Boromir wasn't around when Eorl the Young rode from the Wilderland. But Legolas' describing every single aspect of Gollum's escape implies he was on hand. I guess I can't stress that part enough. You could argue that, okay ... so Legolas was on hand ... maybe Thranduil tasked his princely warrior son with the prisoner because it was Gandalf's special request and he didn't want it blown by his normal jailers since they're drunks. However ... how many prisoners could that place typically have? In 80 years the only prisoners we've heard of are the dwarves and Gollum. Any case involving prisoners was a special event worthy of Thranduil's or one of his prince's special interest. (Perhaps that's why the jailer and his friend in the Hobbit were so insistent on wine-drinking ... the place NEVER has prisoners, and they just happen to get some prisoners on the night of the big party? Well ... no blasted dwarves are going to ruin their night ... break out the wine! I know, I know ... that's PURE speculation). So not only could Legolas have been the drunken jailer, or likely enough, his wine-bearing friend ... he was personally responsible for Gollum's escape, and possibly joined the Fellowship because he felt he owed Gandalf BIG TIME for failing that task - enemy conspiracy or not. He certainly didn't join the Fellowship because he wanted to hang out with four hobbits, a dwarf and two men ... (although Aragorn and Boromir he no doubt respected immediately and likely knew of somewhat, and Frodo Baggins he also no doubt respected greatly). That was a long one. Failure as a jailer? Might as well try his hand at saving the world to prove he's not completely worthless!
__________________
"I come from yonder...Have you seen Baggins? Baggins has left, he is coming. He is not far away. I wish to find him. If he passes will you tell me? I will come back with gold." - Khamul the Easterling Last edited by Keeper of Dol Guldur; 09-01-2006 at 05:21 PM. |
||||||
09-01-2006, 06:11 PM | #8 |
Wight
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Barad-Dur
Posts: 196
|
Orlando Bloom might have been a lousy jailer but Legolas would have done OK .
I am the Mouth of Sauron . |
09-02-2006, 06:02 AM | #9 | ||||
Stormdancer of Doom
|
Quote:
I'm not agreeing that this proves your Hobbit-jailer-theory (which is cute and fun)-- but this does bring up some interesting points. One, it seems that Legolas knew Gandalf, or at least knew of him. Perhaps that is another reason why Legolas is included on the quest. Two-- they wearied of the task. All right. Weary elves would turn to partying, in order to cheer up-- singing, dancing under the stars, and maybe even drinking. Okay, definitely drinking. I can buy the idea that the walking-jailers-party were trying to keep themselves cheered up. Three-- "Gandalf bade us still hope for a cure." Did they remind themselves of this daily? Perhaps. How do youy heal somebody who shrieks when you touch him or tie your rope to him? Elf-music has a healing quality to it. I don't doubt that they would sing to Gollum (poor, poor Smeagol) in the hopes that something would stir in his stringy little heart. And singing and wine do seem to go together. Four-- It does seem that Legolas has a level of authority over the jail system such as it was. Tolkien's text supports this. Now for the text from The Hobbit... Quote:
Quote:
A page later, by the elves arriving from the feast, the butler is named: "old Galion". And the chief of the guards is referred to as "the turnkey". Since elves delight in jibes, surely if Legolas was snoring with his head on the table, they would have said "the princeling" or "the king's son", to emphasize the irony of the situation. The remote possibility remains that Legolas was one of the party enlisted to roll the barrels down the hatch. I confess I have pondered this possibility before, and had some fun with it. However, there is a pargraph that makes this extremely unlikely, and that is Galion's reaction to the party when they complain of the heavy barrels. Quote:
EDIT: I agree with Rune on of Bjarne that the "you" and "we" argument holds no water. It was an elves versus dwarves statement, not a Legolas versus Gloin statement.
__________________
...down to the water to see the elves dance and sing upon the midsummer's eve. Last edited by mark12_30; 09-02-2006 at 06:13 AM. Reason: spelling spelling slepping seplleing |
||||
09-02-2006, 12:15 PM | #10 |
Ghost Prince of Cardolan
Join Date: May 2004
Posts: 3,448
|
only one problem...bilbo didnt recognize legolas as either of these two charactors
__________________
Morsul the Resurrected |
|
|