Visit The *EVEN NEWER* Barrow-Downs Photo Page |
06-22-2006, 09:59 PM | #1 |
Ghost Prince of Cardolan
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: midway upon... in a forest dark
Posts: 975
|
Inbreeding... and a little incest
I have noticed that some of the Elves are inbreds... look at Celebrian, whose mother Galadriel is a descendant of Olwe, and whose husband Celeborn is akin to Elwe, Olwe's brother. Another example, Aragorn and Arwen. They are both descended from Earendil, their (fore)fathers being Elros and Elrond.
Now in biology I read that inbreeding in some species actually retains the nice traits of whatever you're breeding (example, you want only pink bougainvillea, don't let it cross-pollinate with other colors). But inbreeding also makes the risk of genetic diseases greater--this is very evident in breeding animals. So why don't the Elves get a little wacko with all their inbreeding? And Eldarion too?
__________________
|
06-23-2006, 12:36 AM | #2 | |
Dead Serious
|
Quote:
And, while a certain amount of inbreeding certainly exists (especially among the descendents of Elwë, Olwë, and Elmo, who were brethren), I don't think there's any examples of marriages between first cousins or of those of equal or closer degree... which is the human norm for acceptable.
__________________
I prefer history, true or feigned.
|
|
06-23-2006, 02:47 AM | #3 |
Shade of Carn Dûm
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: The Shire (Staffordshire), United Kingdom
Posts: 273
|
I cannot speak for Elves (I'm a hobbit and, therefore, human) but among humans breeding btween brother and sister carries with it the strong possibility of genetic problems, which is why it is discouraged in most societies.
Marriage between first cousins carries a much smaller risk. Most such couples would not have problems unless such marriages had occured within the same family for several generations. If we assume that Elves were created with a perfect set of genes in the begining, then for Elves born in the First Age or earlier there should be no problems at all. It would take more than a few generations for genetic drift or mutation to have an effect. Formendacil calls Elwë, Olwë, and Elmo, brothers. Were they true brothers, in the sense that they were born of the same parents? Or were they amongst the first Elves, created not born? In that case, they may not share the same genes but be called brothers through alliance and affection. . |
06-23-2006, 06:50 PM | #4 | |
Dead Serious
|
Quote:
__________________
I prefer history, true or feigned.
|
|
06-24-2006, 02:12 AM | #5 | |
Eagle of the Star
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Sarmisegethuza
Posts: 1,058
|
Quote:
|
|
06-28-2006, 11:04 PM | #6 |
Wight
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: Where the stars go blue.
Posts: 153
|
In some cultures inbreeding and incest isn't thought of as bad.
Look at Cleopatra and her brother Ptolemy. They married. Look at the British Royal family. They seem to be normal. ________ Website design Last edited by Elonve; 04-09-2011 at 06:19 PM. |
06-29-2006, 03:32 AM | #7 |
Shade of Carn Dûm
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: The Shire (Staffordshire), United Kingdom
Posts: 273
|
While it's true that members of the British Royal Family have usually bred with distant cousins from what might be called the European Royal Family, they have, from time to time, introduced sufficient fresh blood-lines to avoid the consequences of too-close in-breeding.
Recent examples of carefully selected fresh genes have been provided by Elizabeth Bows-Lyons, the present Queen's mother, who's conections to the Royal Family were very distant, and Diana Spenser, the Queen's daughter-in-law, who's conections were even more remote. . Last edited by Selmo; 06-29-2006 at 03:36 AM. |
06-29-2006, 08:48 AM | #8 |
Doubting Dwimmerlaik
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Heaven's basement
Posts: 2,466
|
Another danger of inbreeding, besides birth defects, is homogeny. After time, all of the genetic information is equality distributed, meaning that everybody is genetically just like everyone else. Inbreeding makes the population susceptible to disease, as no individual is much different that any other, and so everybody's either resistant or not . One of the benefits of genetic diversity is that when things change, like the environment, or a disease shows up, you might have a percentage of the population that is more suited and might survive to fight another day.
But maybe this explains the elves, as they seem to resist change, and when the environment is not to their liking, they fade away into the West, unlike Men and Ents, who are more adaptable.
__________________
There is naught that you can do, other than to resist, with hope or without it.
|
06-29-2006, 01:06 PM | #9 | |||||
Eagle of the Star
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Sarmisegethuza
Posts: 1,058
|
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
|
|||||
06-30-2006, 04:58 AM | #10 | ||
Doubting Dwimmerlaik
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Heaven's basement
Posts: 2,466
|
Quote:
Quote:
__________________
There is naught that you can do, other than to resist, with hope or without it.
|
||
06-30-2006, 11:08 AM | #11 | |||
Eagle of the Star
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Sarmisegethuza
Posts: 1,058
|
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
|
|||
07-06-2006, 04:34 AM | #12 | |
Registered User
Join Date: Oct 2003
Location: in my own little world
Posts: 142
|
Quote:
|
|
07-06-2006, 12:01 PM | #13 |
Shade of Carn Dûm
|
Also hobbits, seem to like to marry within their family, but they must share more of the same names than actual blood. And besides brother-sister, what about a la Oedipus the King? In that play, his children (coming from him and his mother) did not have birth defecs, they were only looked on as 'monsters' in a symbolic sense.
And I recall that not only Cleopatra and Ptolemey, but the entire line of Egyptian rulers bred within their immediate family, which kep their bloodline "pure." ________ TOYOTA RACING HISTORY Last edited by Elu Ancalime; 03-04-2011 at 12:02 AM. |
07-12-2006, 10:56 AM | #14 |
Doubting Dwimmerlaik
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Heaven's basement
Posts: 2,466
|
Somehow this thread got me to thinking about the Dwarves, and the Fathers thereof. One gets the impression that Iluvatar made a bunch of the Firstborn and Secondborn. When each arrives on the scene, there seems to be more than just a few individuals.
How so with the dwarves? How many did Aule fashion? If the number were few, then some inbreeding would have to have taken place.
__________________
There is naught that you can do, other than to resist, with hope or without it.
|
07-13-2006, 01:51 AM | #15 |
Pile O'Bones
Join Date: Jul 2006
Posts: 11
|
for Sauron took to himself the name of Annatar, The Lord of Gifts
Just finished reading The Silmarillion (again) and can recall a sentence which stated that the Eldar had no great love of marrying their immediate kin i.e 1st cousins. The statement is in reference to Maeglin's love for his first cousin Idril Celebrindal, can't remeber what chapter though.
The Elven culture it seems also has scruples associated with this topic. This makes me wonder whether this developed from the Ainur, in much the same way 'morals' are taught and practiced in our human society as a result of religion and government (Eru don't like therefore we don't like)? Or perhaps a notion of integrity, something they developed as a culture themselves, before the Valar found and summoned them, and whether this notion came about from a desire to maintain the fairness of their race. I somehow get the feeling that, even if they bred with their immediate kin, it would probably have no real effect. A race free from sickness and pestilence may not have the genetic throwbacks that occur in mortal races, as a result of the inability of our bodies to 'deal' with the 'overlapping' of DNA, perhaps they simply just don't want to do it. As a side thought maybe that's the difference between the Avari and the Eldar. The Avari were unwilling because they thought in Aman they'd be frowned on for wanting to get it on with mummy!!! |
09-22-2006, 04:15 PM | #16 |
Shade of Carn Dûm
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: Halls of Mandos
Posts: 332
|
Alatar, I believe The Silmarillion says that Aule made seven dwarves. In one of Tolkien's letters, he says that there were thirteen originally, seven males each with his mate, "save Durin the eldest who had none." This latter account seems far more likely to me, since if there were only seven to begin with, they would have to be of mixed gender, and it's difficult to see how the Seven Houses of the Dwarves could have arisen from that.
__________________
"If you're referring to the incident with the dragon, I was barely involved. All I did was give your uncle a little nudge out of the door." THE HOBBIT - IT'S COMING |
10-04-2006, 02:17 PM | #17 |
Doubting Dwimmerlaik
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Heaven's basement
Posts: 2,466
|
Maybe the seven Dwarves were met by a lady by the name of Snow White...(must get Disney out of brain) ?
Even if there were 14, that still begs the question about, well, how it all got started as in the second generation everyone's marrying 'cousins,' and in each generation after that the families become even closer and mingled. Still, it might be possible, though 12-14 individuals might be a nonviable population, however long-lived.
__________________
There is naught that you can do, other than to resist, with hope or without it.
|
10-04-2006, 02:39 PM | #18 |
Byronic Brand
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: The 1590s
Posts: 2,778
|
Actually, I've heard (speaking as no kind of scientist) that eventually a lot of incest cancels out and pretty much stabilises. Hence Cleopatra not being a drooling idiot after ten generations of inbreeding sister-marrying Ptolemies.
Ptolemies=Dwarves? Do we have an allegory here, ladies and gentlemen?
__________________
Among the friendly dead, being bad at games did not seem to matter -Il Lupo Fenriso |
10-04-2006, 03:31 PM | #19 |
A Mere Boggart
Join Date: Mar 2004
Location: under the bed
Posts: 4,737
|
I've been reading a fair amount about the Amish this week (following the horrible events in Pennsylvania) and I noticed that there is apparently a very high incidence of genetic illness due to the small original gene pool and inbreeding as a result (further exacerbated by not admitting 'outsiders' into the community via marriage). This doesn't result in people who have learning disabilites, more that they have physical disabilities including dwarfism (which Im sure is not the PC term so I apologise), 'short legs' in comparison to the body and polydactylism (extra fingers and toes).
Though of course Tolkien's Dwarves are a race and so very different. Maybe Tolkien just didn't include the women in that original figure of seven?
__________________
Gordon's alive!
|
10-09-2006, 08:26 PM | #20 | |
Guest
Posts: n/a
|
Quote:
What if the "original ancestors" of each species -- those 13 Dwarves, for instance -- were created to be "genetically perfect"? No nasty recessive genes that could pile up in the first few generations to create numerous children who had visible and handicapping physical defects, serious heart trouble, terrible eyesight, hemophilia, etc.? So if you had first cousins (or second, or third cousins) marrying back and forth in the early days, it wouldn't cause much trouble until nasty mutations started to creep in. Either by accident in the natural course of events, or else because of the well-known corrupting influence of the Shadow. (Or some of each?) As near as I can recall, some of Tolkien's writings suggested Orcs and Trolls were basically bred from the original Elf and Men stock by Morgoth, using prisoners he'd captured and then tinkered with somehow at his leisure, way back in the day. Obviously he was able to make some drastic changes along the way to make sure future generations "bred true" with their new forms and characteristics. I've read claims that other notes Tolkien made at different times suggest that he also played around with the idea that those critters weren't long-lost "cousins" of Elves and Men, but merely second-rate imitations somehow created by Morgoth from scratch to make better servants. Either way, they were obviously living creatures that could reproduce themselves, and if Morgoth were to achieve such a thing in the modern world we'd say he had considerable ability in "genetic engineering" (although he probably didn't call it that and may not have known a thing about the structure of tiny little DNA molecules. Maybe he just knew how to really exert his willpower to get roughly the results he wanted? Mind over matter?) If we grant Morgoth the "genetic engineering" capability, why not assume that nasty genes that eventually crept into the gene pools of one species or another were the result of his evil influence? Whether his magic had an effect similar to powerful radiation, or whether he was putting nasty mutagenic substances into water supplies (rivers, lakes, etc.), or whether he released a few retroviruses or some such thing out into the world . . . anything that would gradually cause visible defects (and sometimes defects not visible to the naked eye) to weaken the future generations of Men, Elves, Dwarves? Particularly if they inbred over time? Frequently marrying cousins back and forth within a rural community over a span of centuries, for instance? That would explain why the Dwarves, for instance, didn't run into serious trouble in the first several generations when they were all descended from the same six married couples or however it worked. (Six married couples plus Durin? Did Durin later marry someone else's daughter?) The mutations triggered by Morgoth hadn't had much time to sink into their gene pool yet. By the time you had a nasty recessive gene lurking in one House or another, marrying a member of another House would probably keep it lurking recessively, unknown and unworried about, for a few generations longer until at long last it was potentially "reunited" with a copy of itself in a new marriage and then the two would have one chance in four of being able to pair together in a particular kid and make his life less happy than it otherwise would have been? |
|
|
|