LotR2-TTT-Seq19

[alatar]

Infinity, as described by my Geometry teacher:

“Assume a sparrow, the least of birds, flies the distance from the Earth to the Sun. When it reaches the Sun, now composed of steel, it brushes its wing on the sphere once, removing a bit of the steel. It then returns to Earth and starts back again. The sparrow continues the process until the Sun-sized sphere is completely wiped away.

This is not even close to infinity.”


The frenetic activity at Helm’s Deep increases. Théoden contrives the best defense that he can with the limited resources at hand. Aragorn, in ‘timeout,’ pouts/broods on his predicament. “If only she agreed to elope with me…” But, finally, he gets off his high horse and realizes that it’s not all about him – there’s children who are lost, foundering, and need a leader/father to guide them, even if into the land of the dead. He examines the sword of one of these lost boys and shows that it still works – call it the “Air-bane.” But, though he’s clearly lying about the sword, unless they happen to get attacked by Jell-O orcs, he decides not to despair and passes that to the boy with a hand on the shoulder, just as Gandalf did to Frodo way back there in the Shire, when Uruks were but a twinkle in a bad wizard’s eye.

Note that Haleth is the name of Helm Hammerhand’s son, not Háma’s. And is this ‘Háma the Headless’ who was recently et by a Warg?

So, like many warriors in many movies, Aragorn ‘suits up.’ We see him getting dressed and girding himself for battle. A sword is proffered by a pointy-eared princeling, and it is accepted with a nod. Legolas too puts his trust in Aragorn, who so far has the breaking of the Fellowship, the loss of Boromir and Merry and Pippin, the freeing of Brego and a gold medal in the cliffdiving/backfloating biathlon on his resume, so you can see that the elf’s trust is well-placed.

Oddly, Legolas asks for forgiveness for despairing, and yet what exactly was Aragorn doing out there as he sat? And wasn’t this the same guy who harangued Théoden?

Aha! Another short joke! No classy moment where Théoden sees Gimli carrying a horse, instead of being carried by one – sharing the same green shield with white horse, Gimli thereby showing that he fights for the King of the Mark. No! PJ has to slap in a short joke. And wasn’t Gimli wearing steel rings anyway?

Horns! Horns! Horns!

Whatever could it be? Help has arrived in the form of Unicorn Elves. They walk in sync, four abreast, and I count at least 20 rows (that would be 80 elves at the minimum, a point that will be important at least to me later). The Helmingas are awed – where did you guys get such great capes?

Théoden comes out to see these newcomers and meets the ever-graceful Haldir. The elf captain explains that he has a message from Elrond (though aren’t these Galadhrim?) and states that once, elves and men stood side by side in the battle against evil, and so it would be again this day.

Aragorn is overjoyed at Haldir’s arrival, and hugs the elf.

Though elves at Helm’s Deep makes me want to tear off the pointy ears that I superglued on, as it’s just wrong, but I think that, just like you, I thought the moment that they arrived was great, as was the moment when Aragorn hugs Haldir. You get a jolt when the elves arrive and turn in formation, regardless of how blasphemous the whole idea is. I’ll quit complaining now and save up some vinegar for when PJ decided later that there really weren’t any elves at Helm’s Deep. At least Arwen the She-Elf is not amongst the newcomers.

Finally Helms Deep looks ready for battle. There are men, boys and elves lining all of the walls, and so at least it might be a fight instead of a slaughter. Though the elves aren’t supposed to be here, let’s just pretend that Théoden had just arrived with his 1000 or so knights to beef up the defense that Erkenbrand had put in place (he’s missing in the movie AND in the books from Helm’s Deep, so that’s one thing in which JRRT and PJ are in concordance!). Éomer Éadig, missing, would have placed the elves…the knights (men of Eastfold) on the wall like Aragorn does here and so Aragorn is taking the place of Eomer…

Oh just forget about it and just watch the PJ version.

The elves look a little better without the cloaks – now they look like space heroes or something out of Flash Gordon. The elves appear to be three (?) rows deep on the wall, and again a low estimate is that there are at least 144 elves here. I like the silence as they await the attackers. No boasting, or yelling, just silence as Saruman’s forces begin the assault.

And here they come, carrying about a billion torches, which is silly as they aren’t burning anything, rick, cot or etc, and wouldn’t that torchlight make for excellent shooting for the elven archers? From Aragorn’s arrival in the scene I would place him, Legolas and Gimli in the center of the wall’s length. Gimli jokes, but it’s not over the top. Just a little nervousness shining through.

The storm begins, with falling water and spears approaching. We see more of the glittering caves, and whom it is that Théoden and Aragorn seek to defend. Again PJ goes to the heart, showing children here.

Who died and made that Uruk ‘King of the Rock?’

Aragorn lords over the new arrivals, assuming that Lord Elrond sent his less than finest as an empty gesture. “Dress them all alike so that at least they won’t shoot each other.” Do these elves really need schooling in orc ethics? “Do not play poker with these orcs, nor let them borrow your cell phones as they will run up the minutes…”

The face off begins. Legolas and Gimli make me laugh, as it sounds like something that they would actually say. The Uruks begin stomping and pounding, and there’s a whole backstory to that in the Appendices. The defenders nock arrows. The tension builds and builds.

Arrow loose and away! One shot, one kill. Was that arrow guided by Manwë? So much for the Uruks being invincible. Now we need merely to do that just 9,999 more times…

HERE THEY COME!

While Legolas takes his turn at school marm, Aragorn commands the elves to fire, like his father-in-law did so many thousands of years ago. Wouldn’t it have been better for him to shoot an arrow or two instead of stating the obvious? Théoden sends a volley likewise. Wait a moment - who are those archers in the back? Oh my, do we have even more elves here?

My point, which I will make once, is that with the number of elvish archers present, there would be a lot of Uruk casualties. If 200 elves could rack up five kills each, 1/10 of the attacking force is dead in the first minute. Are these the worst archers that Elrond and Galadriel could find, or is Legolas just so much better? Or are there only a few elves here? Regardless, it seems to make no sense. But…

The Uruks counter with their own darts, and bring in the ladders. The choreographed ladder attack was cool – Saruman is one great orc trainer. The berserkers ride the ladders to the wall, hoping to keep the ladder in place until more Uruks climb up. The elves draw their swords, but are not too effective against this new breed. Or is it their new captain that makes them less effective? Defenders start dropping like leaves in Autumn and yet Legolas and Gimli have time for a game. Oops! Do elves count in the totals?

The battle rages on, ladders are thrown down yet more are raised. Note that there aren’t many bodies on the ground.

Meanwhile, back at the boring dingle, where even Treebeard seems to be drowsy, the Ents agree that Merry and Pippin aren’t orcs, but nothing else has been discussed. Treebeard’s happy enough to rattle and prattle on in Common Speech, but Old Entish must uncouple his brain or something. Why does PJ portray the Ents thus, and why must we be tortured so? Is this some kind of cinematic technique, moving us from the crazed pace of battle to the snail’s pace of the Entmoot? I’m clueless on the Ents’ lack of action, as Treebeard seemed more hasty when he first encountered the hobbits. Sure, we need to keep the tension up over at the Hornburg, but is this how it must be done (and that all not too well)?

At least we’re given a respite from the action (note that in subsequent viewings I just jump past the Ent scenes), but soon enough will return the main feature of this second installment of LotR - the Battle for Helm's Deep.

[Macalaure]

As I already said, if PJ really wanted to have elves at Helm's Deep, I would have preferred Rivendell ones. Instead of Haldir we would have gotten Elrond's sons (or at least one of them) and the problem of "where have the elves gone" that occurs after the battle is none no more, since we can make a Grey Company out of them. Of course we may ask: How could they have gotten past Isengard? But, come on, this wouldn't have been the worst logical shortcoming of the trilogy.

The scene on the wall before the battle is maybe the only scene of TTT where I like PJ's Gimli and I really like Aragorn adressing elves and men as Eruhíni (sadly not translated in the subtitle).

Originally Posted by alatar

My point, which I will make once, is that with the number of elvish archers present, there would be a lot of Uruk casualties. If 200 elves could rack up five kills each, 1/10 of the attacking force is dead in the first minute. Are these the worst archers that Elrond and Galadriel could find, or is Legolas just so much better? Or are there only a few elves here? Regardless, it seems to make no sense. But…

But you see quite a lot of them falling in their first attack. Whether these are about 10% cannot be told, of course. This or that way, 9/10 of this Uruk army should be able to cause some havoc of its own.
I'm far from being an expert at medieval warfare, but do the archers in the back make a lot of sense? They have no shelter from the orcish crossbows.

[alatar]

Originally Posted by Macalaure

As I already said, if PJ really wanted to have elves at Helm's Deep, I would have preferred Rivendell ones. Instead of Haldir we would have gotten Elrond's sons (or at least one of them) and the problem of "where have the elves gone" that occurs after the battle is none no more, since we can make a Grey Company out of them. Of course we may ask: How could they have gotten past Isengard? But, come on, this wouldn't have been the worst logical shortcoming of the trilogy.

Someone had to 'show up' to save the day, and I guess PJ wanted to show that there was still some tie to the past, where Elves and Men fought Sauron together, and so we get Elves. They're Galadhrim because, well, did we meet any Elf other than Elrond and Arwen in Rivendell? PJ won't create another 'main character' (i.e. Erkenbrand), and so had to use what he had on hand, like Haldir.

The scene on the wall before the battle is maybe the only scene of TTT where I like PJ's Gimli and I really like Aragorn adressing elves and men as Eruhíni (sadly not translated in the subtitle).

Agreed, except that I cringe when Aragorn states the obvious.

But you see quite a lot of them falling in their first attack. Whether these are about 10% cannot be told, of course. This or that way, 9/10 of this Uruk army should be able to cause some havoc of its own.

Whether it's 100 or 1000, my point is that if there are 200 elves, they either are terrible at fighting or something just doesn't make sense. My guess is that there are 1000 elves here, with which Aragorn could have made the Uruks think twice about taking Helm's Deep, if used effectively. Think about how Legolas fights, and even 'halve' that ability. It's such a great battle scene in a visceral way and I hate to continually be pulled out of the movie by thinking about how ineffectual the elves are.

I'm far from being an expert at medieval warfare, but do the archers in the back make a lot of sense? They have no shelter from the orcish crossbows.

Yes (not that I'm an expert either). They can shoot over the wall and defenders safely and pour arrows into the attackers. It's not until the wall is breached (which we will soon see) that they will be in any danger - and that mostly from their leader.

[Macalaure]

Originally Posted by alatar

Someone had to 'show up' to save the day, and I guess PJ wanted to show that there was still some tie to the past, where Elves and Men fought Sauron together, and so we get Elves. They're Galadhrim because, well, did we meet any Elf other than Elrond and Arwen in Rivendell? PJ won't create another 'main character' (i.e. Erkenbrand), and so had to use what he had on hand, like Haldir.

Canonicity aside, it is also a very good feeling that elves and men fight alongside each other in the Third Age. At least that's what I felt.
Did Haldir have to be a 'main character'? If we didn't need him at Helm's Deep, there's no reason to even tell his name in Lórien. And mixing Elladan and/or Elrohir into some of the Rivendell scenes wouldn't have been such a big thing.
Ah, but I can't change what has been already done...

Whether it's 100 or 1000, my point is that if there are 200 elves, they either are terrible at fighting or something just doesn't make sense. My guess is that there are 1000 elves here, with which Aragorn could have made the Uruks think twice about taking Helm's Deep, if used effectively. Think about how Legolas fights, and even 'halve' that ability. It's such a great battle scene in a visceral way and I hate to continually be pulled out of the movie by thinking about how ineffectual the elves are.

Well, they are terrible at fighting. I forgot to write that in the last post, but this quite annoys me, too. They should be better fighters even as the common rohirric soldiers, not to mention children and old men, but they do nothing but shoot some arrows and then die. I think it's due to the meaning of this particular battle. It is supposed to be the heroic hour of the Rohirrim and their king Arag..*cough* Théoden, and not of the elves. So all they can do in the end is die an honorable death - as Haldir exemplary does.
And comparing anybody's fighting to Legolas' fighting is just not fair - he has the quiver of plenty...

Yes (not that I'm an expert either). They can shoot over the wall and defenders safely and pour arrows into the attackers. It's not until the wall is breached (which we will soon see) that they will be in any danger - and that mostly from their leader.

And neither is Peter Jackson, I would say.
As they can shoot over the wall into the attackers, so can the attackers in turn since the wall doesn't protect them in their position. But this is not really important, I guess.

[alatar]

Originally Posted by Macalaure

Did Haldir have to be a 'main character'? If we didn't need him at Helm's Deep, there's no reason to even tell his name in Lórien. And mixing Elladan and/or Elrohir into some of the Rivendell scenes wouldn't have been such a big thing.

But they would have added/slowed the pace of the Rivendell scenes where the focus was to be otherwise. Besides FotR, Elrond, Arwen and Bilbo, just who else is introduced in Rivendell? PJ might even have skipped Bilbo but we needed to get Sting and the mithril coat, plus we needed that constant reminder that the Ring was Evil. If you don't have time for Glorfindel at the Fords, then surely you don't have time for E&E. Plus, instead of scouting the area/traveling with the two sons, Aragorn was hanging out with Arwen.


[quote]Well, they are terrible at fighting. I forgot to write that in the last post, but this quite annoys me, too. They should be better fighters even as the common rohirric soldiers, not to mention children and old men, but they do nothing but shoot some arrows and then die. I think it's due to the meaning of this particular battle. It is supposed to be the heroic hour of the Rohirrim and their king Arag..*cough* Théoden, and not of the elves. So all they can do in the end is die an honorable death - as Haldir exemplary does.[quote]
It's just annoying. If you're going to rewrite history and have Elves at Helm's Deep, at least make them look respectable.

And comparing anybody's fighting to Legolas' fighting is just not fair - he has the quiver of plenty...

Naw...he just is quick about picking up all of the arrows that his compatriots fail to shoot.

And neither is Peter Jackson, I would say.

In one of the commentaries PJ is made out to be some type of general, wanting all of the battles to appear realistic (don't quote me, it's in there somewhere and I'm stating my opinion of what is said), but that may have been misguided praise.

As they can shoot over the wall into the attackers, so can the attackers in turn since the wall doesn't protect them in their position. But this is not really important, I guess.

Nope. The elves are in a better position (at least until the next sequence). They are on higher ground, can purportedly shoot further and have a screening wall between them and the Uruks. With Aragorn acting as their spotter (or not), they need only to shoot in the general direction of the large group of Saruman's army to have an effect. The Uruks would be experiencing a rain of arrows and would only be able to shoot back, blindly, from where they thought that the arrows were coming. There would be no guarantee that an Elf would be hit, unlike when the elves returned fire. Plus, the crossbows assumedly do not have the range, or the orcs would have sacrificed their own people and shot everything off of the wall top. Any orc on the wall that was silly enough to attempt a crossbow shot at these archers would be cut down (by Gimli) whilst reloading.

But then again, this is not only fantasy, but PJ's fantasy world, and so sense is left at the theatre door.

[Macalaure]

Originally Posted by alatar

But they would have added/slowed the pace of the Rivendell scenes where the focus was to be otherwise. Besides FotR, Elrond, Arwen and Bilbo, just who else is introduced in Rivendell? PJ might even have skipped Bilbo but we needed to get Sting and the mithril coat, plus we needed that constant reminder that the Ring was Evil. If you don't have time for Glorfindel at the Fords, then surely you don't have time for E&E. Plus, instead of scouting the area/traveling with the two sons, Aragorn was hanging out with Arwen.

I don't have a thorough introduction in mind. Elrond's sons are rarely mentioned in the Rivendell chapters anyway. Maybe half a minute screen time at most, just so you remember them when they turn up again in the Elrond-Galadriel-Telepathy-Scene and at the Deep. Let Aragorn remain with Arwen as it is. Maybe it would have slowed the Rivendell scenes, but to the great benefit of the Helm's Deep scene and the Paths of the Dead scene. (And the latter could have used that a lot, but we're still quite a time away from this)
I also wouldn't have minded if Elladan/Elrohir took Glorfindels part in rescuing Frodo instead of Arwen.

[alatar]

Originally Posted by Macalaure

I don't have a thorough introduction in mind. Elrond's sons are rarely mentioned in the Rivendell chapters anyway. Maybe half a minute screen time at most, just so you remember them when they turn up again in the Elrond-Galadriel-Telepathy-Scene and at the Deep. Let Aragorn remain with Arwen as it is. Maybe it would have slowed the Rivendell scenes, but to the great benefit of the Helm's Deep scene and the Paths of the Dead scene. (And the latter could have used that a lot, but we're still quite a time away from this)
I also wouldn't have minded if Elladan/Elrohir took Glorfindels part in rescuing Frodo instead of Arwen.

I think that PJ et al struggled with having as many characters included as possible yet presenting something that was coherent to a non-book reading audience. With nine people in the Fellowship, Arwen, Bilbo, Elrond, Galadriel, etc, there wasn't much room in the FotR to set up many more characters. My sister was thoroughly confused in TTT with Theoden and kin, not to mention Faramir. "Who are all of these people?" And to include a sub-main character in the Extended Editions? That too could have been hard to accomplish effectively.

My slant is that each character was to be boiled down to a simple idea or caricature so that the audience could easily recognize each's role in the movie.

Plus you have to pay these people...