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06-19-2006, 10:05 PM | #1 |
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Arcane Topic Warning: Part the Second
This may seem more like an encyclopedia article than a discussion topic, but everyone can at least tell me how wrong I am…
I was just thumbing through The Silmarillion and something obvious finally dawned on me. The Dwarves were aware of the existence of the Elves well before they inhabited the Blue Mountains and crossed over into Beleriand and had their first “official meeting.” The Dwarves must have known about the Avari for a long time before they (the Dwarves) went west (you always have to specify who you are talking about when things are going west). The Petty-Dwarves had some sort of cultural memory of them, to judge from Mîm’s words (I say cultural memory because I doubt that Mîm had ever actually met one of the “Wild Elves” that he refers to in regard to them not knowing about earth bread…although, perhaps I should not assume that. Mîm might have been a great traveler in his younger days). If the Petty-Dwarves knew about Wild Elves, it is only natural to assume the rest of the Dwarves knew of them as well, especially considering how long the Dwarves inhabited the same areas as the Avari. In fact, contact could have been made fairly early on in Dwarven cultural existence. Although, it is a bit difficult to see what sort of interaction the Dwarves would have had with the Avari. Two more dissimilar cultures it would be hard to imagine, the Dwarves with their society based essentially on mining and commerce and the Avari with their society based on meandering about aimlessly and singing silly songs at the top of their voices. In fact, the Dwarves are referred to as fighting against the Avari, which seems likely enough. Anyway, the point is that the “amazement” that filled the Elves upon meeting the Dwarves was all on one side. The Dwarves had to have known about Elves already, and may have known that at some point a whole bunch of them had gone off west looking for some funny flashing lights. The Dwarves were probably expecting to find more Elves on the other side of the Blue Mountains. If they were surprised about anything, they were probably surprised about the level of cultural development the Sindar had achieved as all the other Elves they’d ever met were little more than tramps. The more one studies, the more one gains the impression that the Elves were the ones blundering naively about the world while the Dwarves were the enlightened and experienced cultural sophisticates. It is also interesting to note that the Dwarves seemed to have more contact with the Avari than the Sindar because it is the Dwarves to relate to Thingol that the Avari are being driven out of the plains and into the hills by Morgoth’s creatures.
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06-20-2006, 11:04 AM | #2 |
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In Appendix B, Elvish names for the Dwarves, Quendi Eldar, it is stated that elves hunted the petty dwarves, considering them to be strange animals, not Incarnates. Their later amazement is probably due to realising that the petty dwarves were of the same race with the more cultured great ones. Seeing their initial behaviour, they probably met these ousted dwarves firstly.
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06-21-2006, 07:41 AM | #3 | |
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It seems odd that the Petty-Dwarves made no attempt to talk to the Elves even when they were trussed up and roasting on a spit. I assume everybody does realize that the Elves probably barbequed and ate the Petty-Dwarves that they killed. I mean, why else do you hunt, and the Elves don't seem big on wanton slaughter of anything. The second factor in particular probably goes a long way to explaining the "great offense" of the Dwarves and why they never got on well with the Sindar. It is a bit ironic (or symmetrical) that the higher cultures of Elves and Dwarves (as they existed on Middle-earth at the time, since the highest Elven cultures were not present) both first made contact with the outcast or more primitive subset of the other.
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06-21-2006, 12:30 PM | #4 | ||
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06-21-2006, 12:45 PM | #5 | ||
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06-21-2006, 12:49 PM | #6 | |
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06-21-2006, 12:52 PM | #7 | |
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06-21-2006, 01:17 PM | #8 | |
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And, if one decides that Orks came from Elves (and so were probably distorted by Morgoth prior to his Ages of imprisonment), then there may indeed have been Orks abroad (albeit in small numbers) for the Sindar to know and kill. And, the Petty-Dwarves being two-legged, upright, and unlovely by Elven standards... who's to say that they wouldn't have been taken for Orks?
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06-21-2006, 09:54 PM | #9 | ||||
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There is another point I just realized. How is it that the Elves didn’t notice that the Petty-Dwarves were wearing things? I mean the Petty-Dwarves might have just been wearing skins or something but that is more than most animals will do. Mîm is never referred to as being abnormally dressed or anything and the Petty-Dwarves were self-reliant for practically everything so I doubt that Mîm and his family wearing clothes was a new development. How is it the Elves didn’t notice this? They were evidently dimmer than even I originally thought.
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06-22-2006, 12:28 AM | #10 | |
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Here is the full quote, Kuruharan:
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06-22-2006, 12:30 AM | #11 |
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HoME XI has some pretty relevant stuff. To sum up, the Petty-Dwarves were hunted because, as mentioned upthread, they attacked Elves by stealth in the night or when they caught them out alone somewhere. A note does indeed suggest that they were at first thought to be some especially cunning animal, then later believed to be related to Orcs. An important distinction is that the Elves "did not at first recognize them as Incarnates." That is, running around upright with clothes on does not necessarily mean you've got a soul (as the German soccer team amply demonstrate... haha! I jest! Don't kill me, Esty!).
Later, when the Elves met the real Dwarves, grokked that they were Incarnates, and then realized that the Petty-Dwarves were related to them (and therefore incarnate), they stoppped hunting them and even eventually traded with them. EDIT: Snap, Raynor beat me by two minutes and a direct quotation. I'll let mine stand anyway to see if my leetle jokie lures Esty to the thread. |
06-22-2006, 12:35 AM | #12 |
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Perhaps Petty-Dwarf-Hunts were the precursor to the noble art of fox hunting. You don't eat foxes...it's all in the sport...
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06-22-2006, 09:17 AM | #13 | ||
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Yep. Time for me to institute a return policy. I haven't seen my copy of War of the Jewels in ages. (To be honest, I'm not even sure where it is.)
Anyway... Quote:
The point about the fox actually causes me to wonder something else. I think it might depend on what state Elven society had reached at that particular time. If they were more settled and had a more regular source of food, then they would probably be more likely to just kill the Petty-Dwarves because they felt like it. Again, taking foxes as an example, the whole point in hunting them is to protect the livestock, which is the source of food. Now the Petty-Dwarves were not exactly poaching on the source of food...but if the Elves were of the wandering type...or were bored... Quote:
I also wonder exactly what the Petty-Dwarves used to attack the Elves. Mim had treasuries of "axes and other gear." Admittedly, these could be from post Elf-poaching days...but still.
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06-22-2006, 09:53 AM | #14 | |
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06-22-2006, 10:30 AM | #15 | ||
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However, if Petty-Dwarf origins from a mining society make it more likely that they would have been wearing animal skins (which would not by definition have to imply crudely fashioned) it also makes it more likely that the Petty-Dwarves would have used recognizable weaponry in their attacks on the Elves. This Petty-Dwarf hunting business is getting rather difficult to sustain. While Tolkien probably didn't conceive of it lasting very long, I'm beginning to wonder if he would have modified it somehow if he'd thought about it some more. It just seems hard to believe that the Elves wouldn't have realized they were dealing with something more than an animal. I mean, the Elves at the very least were able to inspect the bodies of those they killed and presumably anything the Petty-Dwarf happened to be carrying when they were killed. Unless one assumes that every time a Petty-Dwarf died, his comrades were able to make off with whatever the Dwarf happened to be carrying (which is also difficult to believe)...
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06-22-2006, 11:39 AM | #16 |
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I'm not understanding what part of the whole hunting business you are having trouble with, Kuru.
There are Elves living in the wild. At night these little grotesque creatures attack the Elves and run away. The only sounds they make are throaty growls and grunts. They never made any effort to say "hello" or even make the Elves aware of them. They simply attacked and killed by surprise- something that evil creatures (orcs) or animals would do. And when the Elves caught one alive it just growled and grunted at them and tried to bite. What reason would they have to believe that the thing was at all akin to them and somehow capable (or deserving) of reasoning and conversing with? Also remember that the elves of the wild had an extremely limited perspective compared to you and I. We know all about Men, Dwarves, Elves, Ents, and Hobbits- but they didn't. Given the circumstances I don't really think I can find much fault in their actions. There are always those silly idealists that love to sit where they are with their information and hindsight and judge events such as these. They lack the ability to put themselves into the situation and view it as the participants viewed it, and ignore the current information/hindsight they have access to. Don't be one of those people, Kuru. Strip down your brain and think simply from the perspective of an early Elf. Here are the basic thoughts of an average Elf regarding Petty Dwarves. Animals and evil creatures sometimes try to kill us. When that happens we kill them in order to survive. These new ugly little creatures attacked us one night. They killed my brother and daughter. We fought back and killed some of them. They continued attacking us at night or whenever one of us was alone. So we started tracking them down and killing them. Honestly, Kuru, can you find any fault with those thoughts? Can you blame that Elf?
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06-22-2006, 11:57 AM | #17 | ||
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So there was no chance of encountering these creatures by day...
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06-22-2006, 12:41 PM | #18 | |
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06-22-2006, 01:09 PM | #19 |
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one thing about elves, hunting and sports
We know that Celegorm, Amrod and Amras were great hunters - in Valinor.
I cannot believe they needed to hunt because of the food, and certainly there were no evil creatures in the true west. So elves did hunt for sport, and even though some of us here (me included) don't approve that, the Valar (esp. Orome, and Yavanna at least tolerated it) seemed to. |
06-22-2006, 01:41 PM | #20 | |||
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Last edited by Raynor; 06-22-2006 at 01:45 PM. |
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06-22-2006, 02:13 PM | #21 |
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Orome may not, strictly speaking, be a huntsman for fun. Neither is a Master of Fox Hounds; he has countryside to scour. But don't tell me Orome doesn't enjoy hunting. He definitely loves the bright boarspear for its sharpness.
We also see the Elvenking of the Hobbit first in a hunting and feasting context. It is an inarguable fact that many Elves are not wetly "in tune with nature" but pursuers and hunters of prowess. Were they not, it would be a betrayal of folk-tradition. The Great Hunt is at the heart of Faerie. It is as impossible to reconcile the Valar with the modern anti-hunting movement as it is impossible to reconcile the Hobbitry with the modern anti-smoking movement. My guess is that the Quendi gloried in chasing the peculiar, cunning bearded wild kelvar for the sheer joy of it.
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06-22-2006, 04:20 PM | #22 | ||
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Phantom – I’m afraid you seem to have entirely missed the point of post #15. How did the Petty-Dwarves attack the Elves? What did they use? Fists? Teeth? I find it hard to believe that a race that “from the first days of their Fathers they had marvelous skill with metals” would not be using metal weapons in their attacks. Metal weapons=Higher intellectual capacity than beasts.
I’m not blaming the Elves for what they did (unless, of course, they made the Petty-Dwarves dinner ). However, I am saying they were rather dumb for not putting two and two together. (I think it may also be possible that Tolkien didn't totally think this bit out). Formendacil – Quote:
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06-22-2006, 06:56 PM | #23 | |
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If an Elf came into contact with a Petty Dwarf for the first time and received a cut from an axe, the elf wouldn't think "Ooo, this little guy must be smart because he mined metal out of rock and used a furnace to melt it and forged a blade." Elves didn't know didly-squat about mining, furnaces, and forging. For all we know, the Elves might've thought "What the heck! That shiny silverish thing is sharp! What is it? Do those little things live somewhere where they grow from the ground? Is it dark magic? Do they eat rocks and poop out those shiny things?" Anyway, you get my point. And my second point is this- I wouldn't care if I knew the Petty Dwarves were rational beings. If they attack I'm going to defend myself and my family, and if they continue to be a problem (killing my friends, stealing my stuff, and so on) I'm going to track them down and kill them. If you just up and attack me without notification or reason, then you have, in my mind, lost the right to be dealt with in a peaceful fashion. If you instigated the attack, the most I'd be willing to do is extend a hand of peace once, and once only, and if you tried to cut the hand off... well... I'm through with you. I'm hunting down every last one of you in order to prevent you from doing any further harm to me or my people. It's all basic survival.
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06-22-2006, 07:58 PM | #24 | |
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Also, the Elves did not class the Petty-Dwarves as "Naugrim" even after discovering the relationship, so the quote you mentioned sorta doesn't cover them in the whole skilled-in-the-metallurgical-arts thing. Based on the evidence, we might suppose that the Petty-Dwarves lived in a considerably more primitive fashion than their slightly taller cousins. |
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06-22-2006, 10:39 PM | #25 | |||
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Watch in awe as the phantom steadily undermines his own points
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06-23-2006, 12:00 AM | #26 | ||
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In any case, the implication seems to be that the Petty-Dwarves lived "in caves" like animals, or at least like Orcs. And if we accept that they were mistaken for animals, and hunted as animals by the Elves, then... well, you know the saying, if it looks like a duck, and quacks like a duck...? There isn't much evidence to support the notion of Petty-Dwarves as only slightly less sophisticated than the great Dwarves. On the other hand, there are contradictions here, and I think you're ultimately right that, as you mentioned a few posts back, Tolkien never brought this Petty-Dwarf stuff into a finished, consistent form. |
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06-23-2006, 10:22 AM | #27 | |||||
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06-23-2006, 06:44 PM | #28 |
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Although you make some good points regarding Mîm, Kuru, I think it should be noted that the point in history that Mîm lived in was well after the Elves and the Dwarves met, discussed the Petty-Dwarves, and agreed to stop eating them.
To be serious, although I can easily imagine Mîm's predecessor's inhabited the caves of Narog and Amon Rűdh at a very early date, I'm not sure that we can ascribe to these Pre-First Contact Petty-Dwarves a standard of living comparable to their latter-day descendent.
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06-23-2006, 09:13 PM | #29 | |
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06-24-2006, 12:26 AM | #30 | |
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06-24-2006, 12:38 AM | #31 |
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I also think that we are missapplying our standards on what is a rational soul and what is an animal. Many kelvar behave inteligently, to a degree that in unparalled in our world; and they also speak . Therefore, (regardless of aspect) though we may qualify some beings as having a fea, based on speech and behaviour, the Men/Elves would probably require more qualifiers.
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06-25-2006, 08:30 AM | #32 | |
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06-25-2006, 09:48 AM | #33 |
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Several points:
1. Orks do 'build tools' 2. I don't remember reading about time period of hunting, i.e. - how long did elves hunt petty-dwarves? It may have been couple of occassions, not more, which is excusable (see above about night) 3. Mim was not carrying all of axes and weapons he had on him when he was caught. Couple of occassions I refer to in Clause 2 may have happaned by accident, when both parties (lone elf and party of petty dwarves) were out on other business than war. Imagine company of petty dwarves on root-gathering expedition seeing an elf taking a stroll. They kill him with handy weapons, i.e. selfsame 'roots' or stones. 4. Read clause 1
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06-25-2006, 11:47 AM | #34 | |||
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06-26-2006, 04:22 AM | #35 | |
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Malice-aforethought re - I also do subscribe to 'collective authorship' and 'later recorded' character of elvish legends. It is not hard to imagine (all this thread is based on impressions and imaginations, ain't it?) [half realised] sense of guilt on the part of elvish recorders for this obviously big mistake, exaggerating (not necessarily consciously so) just a tiny bit elements of ambush 'long planned', when 'ambush' in question might have been 'I saw you half a minute before you saw me, so I have an advantage' type of tactics. Besides, when lone is attacked by many, even if it was an accident, from the lone's point of view it would be 'malice aforethought' But main stress is on longevity of the hunting period. Since it is not defined whatsoever, and you yourself lean heavily on 'impressions' in your reasoning, let me lean on my own impression that petty-dwarf hunting could not have possibly occurred more than couple of times at all. Even couple of times is enough to get dwarves offended (touchy folk, these), and no more is required to grasp that hunted are not merely twisted animals. PS. And about chimps - it seems they are capable of building tools, after all
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06-26-2006, 11:30 AM | #36 | ||||
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06-26-2006, 12:53 PM | #37 | |
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06-26-2006, 01:19 PM | #38 | ||||||
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But, as a whole, one way or another we are bound to speculate – no data to build upon. Arguments I’ve presented you with were no intended to rule out even the possibility of things as you reason them, I’ve just tried to illustrate that quite different development of events might have taken place as well. Plausibility is in the eye of the beholder here. I tend to hold that killing of petty-dwarves was just regrettable accident. Arguments to my rescue seem plausible to me. I’m content. Hence: Quote:
If you imply that elves should be blamed for the fact itself – well, probably they should. On the other hand, they’ve stopped of their own accord, and [as I believe] quite soon – feat quite commendable. Quote:
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06-26-2006, 02:19 PM | #39 | |||||
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06-26-2006, 02:29 PM | #40 | |
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Even if 'dwarvish telling' was the reason of stoppage, there is no evidence that reasoning of the elves was 'ah, these are their cousins! we won't hunt them not to offend bigger cousins, than' and not 'ah, these are their cousins! they are incarnates! one should not kill incarnates, let us stop here and now'. If the latter option be true, than it is 'of their own accord' all right.
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