Boromirs way?

[Celegorm]

I always thought, I know LotR. But a few days ago a friend asked, why did Boromir needs so long to get from Minas Tirith to Imladris.
This is referring to the quote:

'In this evil hour I have come on an errand over many dangerous leagues to Elrond: a hundred and ten days I have journeyed all alone.'

It's about 1100 miles from Minas Tirith to Rivendell, so why does he needed that long?
The roads are dangerous, OK. And he doesn't know the exact location of Rivendell.
But 110 days!!!
Do you have any suggestions?

[Kransha]

Well, he had to make his way west and north, since he probably couldn't go straight north from Minas Tirith, for fear of Isengard and Udun's forces cutting him off. I suspect he just travelled slowly and warily to avoid trouble. Their is actually a mileage chart somewhere on the internet (don't have a link) which tells the general distance between important places by road and path.

[Feanor of the Peredhil]

He also lost his horse somewhere a little north-west of Isengard.

[Althern]

I would suggest that a man travelling an average of ten miles per day over 110 days without a horse (lost at the ford at Tharbad) through mainly uninhabited country, while having to remain relatively stealthy and having to hunt for food along the way is fairly decent progress.

[Kransha]

Yes, it would take a while.
First of all, he could only cover about 2 miles in an hour cantering on horseback. The horse couldn't canter all day, which means he'd be able to ride for maybe 8 hours. Thats a maximum of 16 hours a day, with time to hunt, stop and eat, sleep, etc. Plus, being royalty, he'd want to cook the food, his horse would need plenty of rest. That's a lot of time from Minas Tirith to Rivendell.

[The Saucepan Man]

for fear of Isengard

He had no reason to fear Isengard at that stage.

Assuming that Celegorm's figures are correct (and I have no reason to doubt that they are not) 1100 miles over 110 days equals 10 miles a day. That's pretty poor progress, horse or no horse - sleeping, hunting, gathering and cooking notwithstanding. He must have got terribly lost. [img]smilies/tongue.gif[/img] [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img]

<font size=1 color=339966>[ 9:31 PM February 06, 2004: Message edited by: The Saucepan Man ]

[Osse]

remember that he knew not where Rivendell was... he said something along the lines of "... and I searched long for the place called Imlardris, a place many had heard of but none knew where it lay." (or something!!) He would have got to the bree area relatively easily, but would have tarried long as he searched for the hidden vale... he hung around in the Rivendell area for a LONG time.

Or so I believe... [img]smilies/biggrin.gif[/img]


Osse

[Kransha]

He had no reason to fear Isengard at that stage.

Oh, right. Forgot about that. Well, that get's one to wondering why he didn't just cut through the Gap of Rohan and head north. If my geography is correct, that's faster and more convenient. Or was that the way he went? It should be clarified what route he took, then maybe we can understand the delay.

[Knight of Gondor]

I believe it was mentioned a couple of times in Fellowship (and The Hobbit?) that Rivendell was hidden very well. Aragorn told the hobbits they would never find it on their own. Of course...this begs the question, how did Bilbo get there? And what of his dwarf-friends, did they go there with him?

[Gorwingel]

how did Bilbo get there? And what of his dwarf-friends, did they go there with him?

Are you talking about how he got there during the LOTR, or during the Hobbit?

Because if you are talking about LOTR he had been there before, so he knew how to get there.

Boromir had no idea. To me 110 days does not sound like too long of a time. It would be like me going to a city on foot or horseback, about a third of a way across the United States, without a map. And for me it would take awhile. And besides he most likely didn't run into many people on the road along the way. So he probably really became lost and that was probably the reason for the delay.

[Osse]

Boromir went through the gap of rohan, on horseback... lost his horse soon after at tharbad... he then wound his way northwards on foot. He had asked where Rivendell lay... but it is VERY hard to find... bilbo and the Walkers, only found it cos gandalf was there, and he only found it because the trail was cunningly marked. Boromir would have been rambling around either in the Trollshaws, or the hills to the south of Rivendell before he finally found someone or something to lead him to the House of Elrond.


Osse

[the phantom]

But 110 days!!!

I, too, recall being stunned when I read that, Celegorm.

That's pretty poor progress

I agree, Saucepan Man.

First of all, he could only cover about 2 miles in an hour cantering on horseback

A horse can only go at two mph?! I know nothing about horses but that seems very slow. I can do that on foot.

Every year I participate in a walk-a-thon to raise funds for my youth group. The trail is a touch over twelve miles long, we start sometime around 7 AM, and my friend and I are always done before noon and are not terribly tired (though I once wore new shoes and developed a blister).

I understand that Boromir would be carrying a pack with him but it would not hinder him so much that he could only manage ten miles in a day, not if I can do over twelve in just the first part of the day.

Not to mention that Boromir would certainly be stronger and more enduring than I am, after all a large part of his life was spent doing things that were physically challenging.

It would be like me going to a city on foot or horseback, about a third of a way across the United States, without a map.

But if you had a map you could make it in less than 110 days, couldn't you? And if it was a place that you knew the location of then you could probably do without a map (or maybe I'm just saying that because I'm a geography major). [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img]

It seems to me that the best explanation for the journey taking so long was just what The Saucepan Man said earlier-

He must have got terribly lost

If he knew the general region of Rivendell but didn't know how to get to it, it is possible that he could have spent a month wandering around and zigzagging back and forth within a very small area West of the Misty Mountains. That is what I would guess happened.

[Gorwingel]

But if you had a map you could make it in less than 110 days, couldn't you? And if it was a place that you knew the location of then you could probably do without a map (or maybe I'm just saying that because I'm a geography major).

It was just an example (because I have plenty of experience traveling across the U.S. being in a place that you have no idea about, so I was just compairing Boromir's experience to one of mine). I used it because it seems like finding Rivendell would be like finding a needle in Middle Earth (just like trying to find a small town, or a large estate in the middle of the country) [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img]

110 days would be about 3 months, kind of like an entire Summer. Yes, it is probably that he just got very lost, journing around and around Rivendell, asking everyone, not finding the right path (and then of course there is the whole losing the horse thing)

[Osse]

guys... he would not have been going that slowly, until he got far north... right near Rivendell. He would have made good time, and followed the old road through lindon would have come to bree perhaps. There he would have asked people if anyone knew where rivendell lay, and would have set off on a meander eastwards. He probably could have got up to that area in a month, a month and a half perhaps... THIS is when his journey starts to become slow, he'd be wandering aronud for 1.5-2 months looking for rivendell. Horses are fast sure... but they have about the same stamina (proportionaltely) as a Man... they cannot canter, or gallop all day, and even trotting is difficult to maintain for long periods of time. 2 miles an hour is perhaps a minumum estimate, but it's not far off. And once he had lost his horse at the ford of Tharbad, he'd have to trudge it on foot, with the gear he took from a horse. I hike a lot, and I can tell you, doing 10km a day is not easy, you're lucky to keep up a steady 3 mph, and he'd be sweaty and exhausted at the end of that. Physically going non-stop for 110 days... sheesh what a bloke! Doughty indeed! Even so as I said above, he'd probably get to the region west of rivendell in about 40-50 days, but would then take the same again LOOKING for the hidden vale. Remember, no-one knows where it is; at best it's a name on the edge of a tale. So say not: that's pretty slack, rather say: I can't believe he managed to find it at all!!

I certainly would not have the stamina, patience or will to keep going for that long, to find a place where I know not what shall happen, just to explain a dream...

Osse

<font size=1 color=339966>[ 12:44 PM February 07, 2004: Message edited by: Osse ]

[Celegorm]

First thank's for all your answers!

Now I made up my own theory:
Considering that the fellowship* only needed 17 or 18 days to Caradhras and about 5 more to Lothlorien. And then, despite battles and parleys, only one month to the great battle at Pelennor-fields.
I guess, that journey was possible within two month, even if you have to ask some people for the right way.
(* by the way: can Hobbits walk as fast as the big folk?)

But we don't know the exact way he took.
And maybe he asked Saruman and was betrayed. The roads seemed to be very dangerous, too.
A describtion of Eregion, after the Numenors and Gil-galad defeated Sauron, I found in UT (History of Galadriel and Celeborn):

But from then onwards the region fell quickly into decay; and long before the time of LotR had gone back into wild fenlands. When Boromir made his great jouney from Gondor to Rivendell - the courage and hardihood required is not fully recognized in the narrative - the North-South Road no longer existed except for the crumbling remains of the causeways, be which a hazardous approach to Tharbad might be archived, only to find ruins of the bridge, impassable if the river had not been ther slow and shallow - but wide.

I'm looking forward, to read other theories as well. [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img]

[Osse]

As for asking Saruman... I think not. Boromir would certainly have made the journey north from the gap of rohan in about 30 days perhaps... the other 80 would be spent mucking around in the wild,looking for Rivendell.

in UT, note 6 to the disaster of the gladden fields, tolkien says it is 392 leagues from osgiliath to bree, then a further 116 leagues from bree to rivendell, for a total of 508 leagues. 1524 miles in total.

i think that ppl are being a little unfair to boromir, considering that he lost his horse at tharbad and was travelling in parts unknown to Gondorians.... perhaps faramir - a ranger - would have been quicker! :P

it's also worth noting that isildur, travelling north up the east bank of the anduin and then planning to cross the misty mountains at the high pass, expected to need 40 days to get from osgiliath to imladris(only 308 leagues/924 miles). (numenoreans marching 10.5 hours per day, including rests, and covering 8 leagues/day). but this way was closed to boromir.

tony.

[Althern]

This link provides a nice map of the journey, along with some speculative dates. It is quite pro-Boromir and takes into account some of the points raised in this thread. It does however suggest that the timing of the later stages of the journey are somewhat long. Still, I maintain that the combination of being alone, exhausted and lost in an uninhabited wilderness for days and days on end would slow down even the best of us.

[Feanor of the Peredhil]

I'd always thought he may have stopped off in Rohan for a little while, since in TTT, Eomer knows of the dream. Mind, it could very easily have been a messenger having brought that news, but since Bori was going by way of Rohan, it would make sense for him to stop and say hi, restock his food supply, maybe trade horses or something... Just a thought...

Fea

[Roa_Aoife]

Borormir took the long way around the mountains, and near the coast. This was done to avoid as much trouble as possible. On foot, carrying his supplies, having to hunt at least once a day, maybe a skirmish or two, and with no idea where he was going, I'd say 110 days is pretty good time. It's only about 4 months. Not bad at all.

[The Saucepan Man]

I'm still not convinced that it works.

He had a horse for well over half of his journey. Let's say 800 miles of it. Now, 10 mph on horseback would not seem unreasonable, particularly as most of that stretch was on roads. So, that's 80 hours covering that distance. Say he was travelling for 8 hours a day, which leaves him plenty of time to gather food, sleep etc - that's 10 days.

Then he loses his horse, and has to cover the rest of the journey, say 300 miles, on foot. Let's be conservative and say that he is only able to go at 2mph on foot. It's harder going through this country. That's 150 hours - another 20 days on 8 hours per day.

So, he's got to the land surrounding Rivendell in 30 days. That leaves him searching for the place for 80 days, which is nearly 3 months!!!

That sure is a long time searching.

Edit: To make the maths work.

[Roa_Aoife]

I don't understand your math, but even if that left 3 mos for searching, Rivendell is almost impossible to find. I wouldn't have been surprised if he hadn't found it on his own but the elves took pity on him and finally showed him the way.

[warrenerd]

consider the road boromir took. i won't go over it, because people already have responded this way. but don't you think it would call for boromir to be slow and cautious on this journey? and the timing, the timing was horrible.
~wannanerd? warrenerd~

[Boromir88]

It is a long way from Minas Tirith to Imladris, also Boromir did lose his horse in Tharbad too. So, that doesn't help much.

[Theron Bugtussle]

His Daddy should have pinned a sign to his coat that said:

"I am Boromir, heir of Denethor, Steward of Gondor.
It is my first trip away from home.
Please see that I get where I am going.

P.S. If you are a stranger, my Daddy told me not to talk to you."

[Osse]

hoom now, that sounds stragely apt...

If you find this boy, please send him to the following:
Elrond Halfelven, Lord of Imlardis
Rivendell
Somewhere in the Northen Vales of The Misty Mountains
Western Middle Earth 99034
Arda

Let's look at it this way: would YOU be able to walk from say washington state, all the way to minnesota, a place that you have only just heard about, and knew that it lay to the east, THEN find a single house in it's borders without getting proper information... in 110 days... that sounds fair to me people!!

[Hot, crispy nice hobbit]

I should be more interested to know whether Boromir was greeted by the Merry Elves of Rivendell with a song like this:

-----------------------------------
O! What are you doing,
And where are you going?
Your boots need mending!
The toes are showing!
O! tra-la-la-lally
here down in the valley!

O! Where are you going,
With limbs all shaking?
No knowing, no knowing
What brings Mister Boromir
with mildew all a-growing
down into the valley
in October
Ha Ha!
-----------------------------------

[Osse]

very nice crispy...

[Orophin]

Think about it. Boromir is the son of the stuard of Gondor. Imam sure that he is up there on Sauron's hit list. He probably had to be care ful to avoid any areas where enemies could be. Plus he lost his hoese at Tharbad.

[doug*platypus]

Interesting link, Althern. Always nice to find a new Tolkien site. The description there makes a very good point that I was about to raise: the loss of Boromir's horse undoubtedly meant the loss of his provisions, and in fact anything not strapped to his person (he must have really liked that shield!). I agree that the lonely road from Tharbad to Rivendell would have taken him a while, since to my knowledge there were no tracks.

I disagree where the article thinks Boromir would have "stream-bashed" up the River Hoarwell; he had no way of knowing that was the correct river to follow. In fact, we are never told exactly what he knew of the location of Imladris. We can't know for sure how lost he would have been, although I'm sure the Records of the Stewards in Minas Tirith must have provided fairly accurate maps. I also disagree that the leg from Minas Tirith to Edoras would have taken 23 days. Didn't the entire host of the Rohirrim cover this in less than a week?

I hike a lot, and I can tell you, doing 10km a day is not easy

I'll give you the benefit of the doubt and assume that you're talking about steep, uphill terrain, a 30 kg pack, no trail and dense scrub.

How much searching would Boromir really have done for Rivendell? Scouts were out to look for Frodo and report on the movements of the Nazgûl. At such a heightened state of alert (we'll call it ElfCon 2) a man of Gondor would have been intercepted and brought home for dinner as soon as he strayed within 20 leagues of the place. My own very tentative timeline:

15 days Minas Tirith to Edoras
3 days Edoras pub crawl with Éomer
1 day recovery from above
10 days Edoras to Tharbad
3 days cursing the swimming abilities of his nag and foraging for berries
30 days up the Greenway to Bree
1 day smoking pipeweed with friendly traders on their way south
7 days R&R at the Prancing Pony
1 day at Honest Bill's Used Horse Lot
5 days on foot to Weathertop
20 days east along the road to the Ford of Bruinen (picked up by scouts)
1 day making up sob stories to tell the Council of Elrond

TOTAL: 97 fun-filled days. I envy him. I really do...

[Lalwendë]

I love that Boromir timeline! That was one heck of a work awayday, the expenses claim would have been outrageous! An Edoras pub crawl sounds splendid...

I can't find a reference, but I always thought Boromir had spent a fair amount of the time in Rohan. Also, a man like Boromir would be 'trained' for stamina over speed, surely, and he was carrying kit with him, which would have slowed him down a lot. And I do think he got lost, from page 323:

"...long have I wandered by roads forgotten, seeking the house of Elrond, of which many had heard, but few knew where it lay."

[The Saucepan Man]

"...long have I wandered by roads forgotten, seeking the house of Elrond, of which many had heard, but few knew where it lay."

In the firm belief that it should have taken Boromir little over 30 days to reach Rivendell if he knew the way, I had settled on this as the only explanation to this conundrum. Fair enough, it took him much longer because he didn't know exactly where it was. Seems possible that he spent a lot of time locating it. Except for one thing ...

... it is quite clear from Flight to the Ford that the Great East Road leads right up to the Ford of Bruinen. And what's on the other side of the Ford? A stony path that presumably leads right up to Rivendell. And even if it doesn't, it surely wouldn't take some 60 to 70 days for Boromir to find it once he reached the Ford. And wouldn't there have been some helpful tra-la-la-lallying Elves around to show him the way?

What was Boromir doing for all that time? I'm beginning to see doug*platypus' timeline as the more credible one.

[Mithalwen]

In the journeys of Frodo, Barbara Strachey says " There is conflicting evidence on the overall distance involved. In Unfinished Tales it say sform Osgiliath to Bree via Tharbad was 392 leagues and from Bree to Rivendell 116 leagues. The latter presents no problem, but ...the distance from Osgiliath to Bree is improbably long..I cannot reconcile this with the many other measurements provided.

Incidentally Boromir claimed to have travelled 1200 miles ... but it is not at all clear which route he took. He must have gone through Tharbad.....it is possible he took the road the whole way. HE may, however, have gone up the Hoarwell to the last bridge, though without a horse he would have found it difficult to carry enough food, while if he had gon up the Bruinen he would have had to cross the wild fenlands of Swanfleet and the River Glanduin"

Clearly not an easy journey and since his horse ran aaway rather than died he may have lost a lot of his food and gear. Ill equipped and on short rations, you won't make good time....