The Barrow-Downs Discussion Forum


Visit The *EVEN NEWER* Barrow-Downs Photo Page

Go Back   The Barrow-Downs Discussion Forum > Middle-Earth Discussions > The Books > Chapter-by-Chapter
User Name
Password
Register FAQ Members List Calendar Today's Posts


Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 05-21-2006, 10:27 AM   #1
Estelyn Telcontar
Princess of Skwerlz
 
Estelyn Telcontar's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: where the Sea is eastwards (WtR: 6060 miles)
Posts: 7,500
Estelyn Telcontar has reached the Cracks of Doom and destroyed the Ring!Estelyn Telcontar has reached the Cracks of Doom and destroyed the Ring!Estelyn Telcontar has reached the Cracks of Doom and destroyed the Ring!Estelyn Telcontar has reached the Cracks of Doom and destroyed the Ring!Estelyn Telcontar has reached the Cracks of Doom and destroyed the Ring!Estelyn Telcontar has reached the Cracks of Doom and destroyed the Ring!Estelyn Telcontar has reached the Cracks of Doom and destroyed the Ring!Estelyn Telcontar has reached the Cracks of Doom and destroyed the Ring!Estelyn Telcontar has reached the Cracks of Doom and destroyed the Ring!Estelyn Telcontar has reached the Cracks of Doom and destroyed the Ring!
Silmaril The Hobbit - Chapter 18 - The Return Journey

Bilbo reappears at the beginning of this chapter, though at first it is only the revival of consciousness that takes place. He is "visible" only to the readers, not yet to the others around him. We find out that invisibility is not always advantageous!

Victory is not unmitigated joy. Even Gandalf can be wounded, and many of the Men, Elves, and Dwarves are dead. We find out that the urgent business for which Bilbo was wanted is to take his leave of Thorin, who is dying. In that moment, the Dwarf realizes that earthly wealth is not the most important priority, and he desires to close his life in friendship, begging Bilbo's forgiveness.

His words are high praise of the hobbit; it's interesting that he calls Bilbo "good thief" - do you think he's now acknowledging the justice of what Bilbo did? He also mentions his courage and wisdom as well as praising the values of his race. That sentence could hold true for us today, and I imagine it was Tolkien's own wish as well:
Quote:
If more of us valued food and cheer and song above hoarded gold, it would be a merrier world.
Bilbo's friendship and loyalty are astonishing; his readiness to forgive the wrongs done to him is great.

The Eagles are not really the deus ex machina of the battle which they are often considered; there is a back story to their participation. Even they could not save the day alone; it was the cooperation of all that finally won the victory. Beorn's last minute involvement was the final piece of the puzzle that turned the fate of the battle.

Dain appears to be a just King under the Mountain, dividing up the treasure more generously than Thorin would have done, thereby restoring justice and friendship among the races.

Gandalf and Bilbo begin the journey homewards, and similar to the hobbits' journey home from Gondor in RotK, they start off in the company of some of their allies. The Elven King (whom we assume to be Thranduil) comes across much more positively now than earlier in the story, welcoming Gandalf to his halls and naming Bilbo "elf-friend".

Do you wonder about the adventures they had on the way home? I know, it would have been anti-climactic to elaborate on them so near the end of the story, but we wonders, we does...

A wizard and a bear/man - what travelling companions Bilbo had! He was well-guarded indeed. There's a long break in the journey at Beorn's house, where they spend months! Would travelling had been too difficult in the winter months, or do you think they should have gone back to the Shire earlier to prevent the auctioning of Bilbo's house and possessions? Would Gandalf have had foreknowledge of that?

The Battle of the Five Armies had far-reaching results, afterwards affecting the outcome of the War of the Ring. Perhaps those of us who have read "The Quest of Erebor" in UT can add to the discussion the points told there.

The chapter ends with Bilbo's wish for his arm-chair - the hobbit has changed, but not so much that he is someone completely different than he was! His two sides, Took and Baggins, are both still there.
__________________
'Mercy!' cried Gandalf. 'If the giving of information is to be the cure of your inquisitiveness, I shall spend all the rest of my days in answering you. What more do you want to know?' 'The whole history of Middle-earth...'
Estelyn Telcontar is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-23-2006, 08:14 AM   #2
Bęthberry
Cryptic Aura
 
Bęthberry's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2002
Posts: 5,996
Bęthberry is wading through snowdrifts on Redhorn.Bęthberry is wading through snowdrifts on Redhorn.Bęthberry is wading through snowdrifts on Redhorn.Bęthberry is wading through snowdrifts on Redhorn.
Pipe

An excellent review of the chapter, Estelyn! You make it difficult to find anything else to consider!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tolkien
Beorn indeed became a geat chief afterwards in those regions and ruled a wide land between the mountains and the wood; and it is said that for many generations the men of his line had the power of taking bear's shape, and some were grim men and bad, but most were in heart like Beorn, if less in size and strength.
It is hard to take a narrative wrapping up as evidence of much, yet here is something more to ponder. Is this simply mythological story-telling, placing giants, fell creatures and shape-shifting animals back in a prehistoric time--none of his descendents are said to be as huge as Beorn--or is there some sense here of evolution, of change in species. Why would descendents lose this ability? Because apparently it wasn't shared by the females of the species?
__________________
I’ll sing his roots off. I’ll sing a wind up and blow leaf and branch away.
Bęthberry is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-23-2006, 01:18 PM   #3
davem
Illustrious Ulair
 
davem's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: In the home of lost causes, and forsaken beliefs, and unpopular names,and impossible loyalties
Posts: 4,240
davem is battling Black Riders on Weathertop.davem is battling Black Riders on Weathertop.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bęthberry
It is hard to take a narrative wrapping up as evidence of much, yet here is something more to ponder. Is this simply mythological story-telling, placing giants, fell creatures and shape-shifting animals back in a prehistoric time--none of his descendents are said to be as huge as Beorn--or is there some sense here of evolution, of change in species. Why would descendents lose this ability? Because apparently it wasn't shared by the females of the species?
On Berserkers:http://www.viking.ucla.edu/hrolf/berserkers.html:

Quote:
Berserkers

Berserkers, so prominent in Hrolf's Saga, are the remnants in Christian times of older stories. In pre-Christian Scandinavia, berserkers seem to have been members of cults connected with Odin in his capacity as god of warriors. Snorri Sturluson in Ynglinga Saga, recalling numerous elements of ancient lore, describes Odin's warriors in this way:

His men went to battle without armor and acted like mad dogs or wolves. They bit into their shields and were as strong as bears or bulls. They killed men, but neither fire nor iron harmed them. This madness is called berserker-fury.

The berserkers of the saga, who often appear as the core of the king's warband, are at times reminiscent of the retinue of warriors surrounding Odin and may ultimately derive from ancient bear cults. Debate has centered on the meaning of the word itself. Berserker could mean "bare shirt," that is, naked; berserkers, as a mark of ferocity and invincibility, are said to have fought without needing armor. The word, however, may also mean "bear-shirt," reflective of the shape and nature of the bear assumed by these warriors. More literally, it may refer to protective bearskins that such warriors may have worn into battle. When the "berserker rage" was upon him, a berserker was thought of as a sort of "were-bear" (or werewolf), part man, part beast, who was neither fully human nor fully animal. Although not specifically so called, Bodvar Bjarki is a berserker of sorts. He appears at Hrolf's final battle in the form of a huge bear, invulnerable to weapons. In both his invulnerability and his ability to change shape, Bodvar also displays preternatural abilities resembling those of Odinic champions.
The 'shield-biting' referred to here can be seen in the 'berserker' piece from the Lewis Chessmen:



Of course, the link with Odin is strenthened in Gandalf's name 'Greyhame' which was originally used to refer to wolves - Odin had two wolves Geri & Frecki. Gandalf's similarities to Odin have been explored in Marjorie Burn's essay 'Gandalf & Odin' in Tolkien's Legendarium.
davem is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-23-2006, 04:13 PM   #4
Bęthberry
Cryptic Aura
 
Bęthberry's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2002
Posts: 5,996
Bęthberry is wading through snowdrifts on Redhorn.Bęthberry is wading through snowdrifts on Redhorn.Bęthberry is wading through snowdrifts on Redhorn.Bęthberry is wading through snowdrifts on Redhorn.
Tolkien

Thank you, davem, for a wonderful association and for the wonderful picture of the Lewis chessmen. (I'm thankful you provided the quotation as the link isn't working for me.) So, are we to understand this association as we read the story, or does it arrive after in contemplation?

I've seen the Lewis chessman--under class (plexiglass?) of course. They are marvels of exquisite workmanship; the faces remarkable for their individual expression. To my great regret now I did not at the time notice the attributes of the shield biter or recall the tenuous link to The Hobbit (although I do remember thinking that the king rather appeared to have a rolling pin in his hands)--how much more I would have enjoyed them at the time had I had this knowledge of the berserkers then.

The fact that they were made in the latter part of the twelfth century (if the dating is accurate) suggests that the old legends and mythologies lived on in Norway at least well into what were Christianised centuries in England. (Can't say what the status was for Scotland.) We could probably do with more discussion here of how Tolkien incorporated allusions to the old Norse myths.

Now of course I'm off to look at several other 'bear' allusions and metaphors I've read.
__________________
I’ll sing his roots off. I’ll sing a wind up and blow leaf and branch away.

Last edited by Bęthberry; 05-23-2006 at 04:23 PM. Reason: favoured a slightly different wording
Bęthberry is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-23-2006, 04:41 PM   #5
davem
Illustrious Ulair
 
davem's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: In the home of lost causes, and forsaken beliefs, and unpopular names,and impossible loyalties
Posts: 4,240
davem is battling Black Riders on Weathertop.davem is battling Black Riders on Weathertop.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bęthberry
The fact that they were made in the latter part of the twelfth century (if the dating is accurate) suggests that the old legends and mythologies lived on in Norway at least well into what were Christianised centuries in England. (Can't say what the status was for Scotland.) We could probably do with more discussion here of how Tolkien incorporated allusions to the old Norse myths.
I'm taken with the (possibly apocryphal) tale that the man who found the Lewis chessmen ran away in fright at first because he thought they were fairies!

Quote:
"Yes it certainly is! No I could not! And I was explaining very carefully,"answered the wizard crossly. "If you must know more, his name is Beorn. He is very strong, and he is a skin-changer."

"What! a furrier, a man that calls rabbits conies, when he doesn't turn their skins into squirrels?"asked Bilbo.

He is a skin-changer. He changes his skin; sometimes he is a huge black bear, sometimes he is a great strong black-haired man with huge arms and a great beard. I cannot tell you much more, though that ought to be enough. Some say that he is a bear descended from the great and ancient bears of the mountains that lived there before the giants came. Others say that he is a man descended from the first men who lived before Smaug or the other dragons came into this part of the world, and before the goblins came into the hills out of the North. I cannot say, though I fancy the last is the true tale. He is not the sort of person to ask questions of.'

"At any rate he is under no enchantment but his own. ......As a bear he ranges far and wide. I once saw him sitting all alone on the top of the Carrock at night watching the moon sinking towards the Misty Mountains, and I heard him growl in the tongue of bears; 'The day will come when they will perish and I shall go back!' That is why I believe he once came from the mountains himself."
Do bears live in the mountains? And why did they leave when the giants came - & where did the giants come from in the first place? Anyway, one can assume that they lived in the caves, if they lived there at all. It is clear that it is the giants who are preventing him from returning. The implication here is that Beorn expects the giants to die out before he himself, so that he can return to his home. I like the hanging question of whether he is a descendent of bears who became human or humans who became bears. Neither of these options seems to fit in with the 'laws' of M-e. The reference to 'the first men who lived before Smaug or the other dragons came into this part of the world, and before the goblins came into the hills out of the North' seems to refer back to the Atani of the First Age - which would imply that (though he nowhere mentions them) there were 'berserkers' among the human warriors of the FA.

EDIT (from Ring of Words Berserk is probably derived from 'bear-shirt' (a reference to their supposed skin changing abilities) & in Old English 'beorn' meant not bear but a warrior, a hero, a man of valour.

Last edited by davem; 05-23-2006 at 04:53 PM.
davem is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-23-2006, 08:50 PM   #6
drigel
Ghost Prince of Cardolan
 
drigel's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2002
Location: commonplace city
Posts: 518
drigel has just left Hobbiton.
Quote:
Do bears live in the mountains?
I give you the Cave Bear
20 feet long, up to 1 ton in weight. Skulls often misinterpreted as those of dragons.
drigel is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-24-2006, 11:59 AM   #7
davem
Illustrious Ulair
 
davem's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: In the home of lost causes, and forsaken beliefs, and unpopular names,and impossible loyalties
Posts: 4,240
davem is battling Black Riders on Weathertop.davem is battling Black Riders on Weathertop.
Of course, its possible that Tolkien included a bear in TH because his children had Teddy Bears. Bears crop up in both The Father Christmas Letters (the North Polar Bear & a reference to Priscilla's bears 'The Bingos') & Mr Bliss (the Three Bears. A 'Gaffer Gamgee' also appears in Mr Bliss, btw).

This may be another reason for the appearance of bears in stories written for his children. While there are numerous 'imports' from Northern myth & Tolkien's stories we have to keep in mind that there may be a great deal in them which is there simply because it would appeal to his children. We know Tolkien was reluctant to alter an episode in the early drafts of LotR where Frodo killed one of Farmer Maggot's dogs with a stone for some time 'because Chris likes it'. I think it was Michael's fear of spiders which inspired their presence in both Roverandom & TH - in both books giant spiders appear in a terrifying situation but are defeated by the heroes.
davem is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-24-2006, 01:49 PM   #8
Bęthberry
Cryptic Aura
 
Bęthberry's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2002
Posts: 5,996
Bęthberry is wading through snowdrifts on Redhorn.Bęthberry is wading through snowdrifts on Redhorn.Bęthberry is wading through snowdrifts on Redhorn.Bęthberry is wading through snowdrifts on Redhorn.
Leaf

Quote:
Originally Posted by davem
This may be another reason for the appearance of bears in stories written for his children. While there are numerous 'imports' from Northern myth & Tolkien's stories we have to keep in mind that there may be a great deal in them which is there simply because it would appeal to his children. . . . . I think it was Michael's fear of spiders which inspired their presence in both Roverandom & TH - in both books giant spiders appear in a terrifying situation but are defeated by the heroes.
Of course, like a good parent, Tolkien could simply have taken an element in his children's lives, something he knew they would have some interest in, like a sentimental child's toy, and provided a larger or more thrilling context for it, a context derived from the old legends. Beorn is no teddy bear, after all, and the very fact that his character as a skin changer is so unusual in Middle earth marks him as something more than just pablum.

As for Michael's fears of spiders, Tolkien and Christopher shared dreams of sunken civilisations. That does not make Numenor childish.
__________________
I’ll sing his roots off. I’ll sing a wind up and blow leaf and branch away.
Bęthberry is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-24-2006, 02:03 PM   #9
davem
Illustrious Ulair
 
davem's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: In the home of lost causes, and forsaken beliefs, and unpopular names,and impossible loyalties
Posts: 4,240
davem is battling Black Riders on Weathertop.davem is battling Black Riders on Weathertop.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bęthberry
As for Michael's fears of spiders, Tolkien and Christopher shared dreams of sunken civilisations. That does not make Numenor childish.
Numenor was part of the 'adult' mythology. TH was (originally) not. I suspect Tolkien was both using his knowledge of ancient myth as inspiration & attempting to inspire a love of it in his children by presenting them with the 'Archetypes' behind their loved objects. Of course, he was also, by bringing in aspects of his Legendarium in the stories he wrote for them, introducing them to that too. He does a similar thing by his use of implied back-story:

Quote:
Gandalf came by. Gandalf! If you had heard only a quarter of what I have heard about him, and I have only heard very little of all there is to hear, you would be prepared for any sort of remarkable tale. Tales and adventures sprouted up all over the place wherever he went, in the most extraordinary fashion.
Any child reading or hearing this would be begging for more stories about Gandalf. One can assume that references to Gondolin, runes, etc, would have the same effect.
davem is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply


Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -6. The time now is 08:10 PM.



Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.9 Beta 4
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.