The Fëanor inside Fëanor Sons

[Macalaure]

I haven’t found a thread about this topic, so I start this new one:

I came to think, that somehow the characteristics of Fëanor seem to be distributed amongst his sons – each of them owning some of his traits and all together adding up to the whole.

Which parts of Fëanor didn’t translate into his sons? Which parts of his sons don’t come from him, but from Nerdanel – or out of the blue?

[Macalaure]

So, I’ll start by giving my own thoughts so far first.

Maedhros
To me, there are three qualities that mostly make out Maedhros: leadership, conscience and, let’s say, clear-thinking.
After the death of his father and his return from Thangorodrim, Maedhros is the undisputed leader of Fëanor’s Sons. Not even Celegorm questions his authority. Though Maedhros exercises his authority differently than his father, it’s surely a gift from him.
The misdeeds of him and his brother lie heavily on him (interestingly not Alqualonde). He wishes he could fulfill the oath without it, but can’t. Still he disapproves unnecessary violence. This sort of self-reflection cannot be found in Fëanor at all, so it is one of Nerdanel’s gifts.
Maedhros is a very clear and practical thinker. We see it at the debate after his rescue and at the end, arguing with Maglor. His counsels almost seem unemotional and cold, but behind them there is always the fulfilment of the oath (except when he didn’t listen to Fingolfin prior to the Bragollach). I think it’s hard to decide whether this ability is from his father or mother. Fëanor’s temper often overcame his intellect.

Maglor
There’s few of Fëanor in Maglor. He’s a singer and a writer while his father was more of a linguist. The important parallel is in his creativity, or inspiration. Though Fëanor did not write (to our knowledge) anything, he made many works of art. This we find again in Maglor.
As Maedhros, Maglor has a strong conscience, though of a different type. Maglor is far less top-heavy than he and more the emotional type. The misdeeds rip into his heart, which is not the case with his elder brother at all. This trait, of course, is absolutely not Fëanor.
There’s only one short occasion where Maglor is in charge of his brothers – when Maedhros is hanging out at Thangorodrim. It’s interesting to see what happens when Fingolfin arrives: Maglor changes the sides – of the lake. Without Maedhros Fëanor’s Sons seem pretty help- and clueless.

Celegorm
A very charismatic person. His words in Nargothrond are said to have been of equal power as Fëanor’s once have been. Though he is not a leader (as we see at Lake Mithrim), he’s ambitious. He wants the power of all elven kingdoms in his hands (yet never tried to overthrow Maedhros) – even more than he wants the Silmarils.
Charisma, unscrupulousness, ambition, no question where all that came from.

Caranthir
We know few about him but his temper. Since Curufin is said to resemble Fëanor’s temper, and Caranthir to be the “harshest and most quick to anger”, it seems that he outperforms even his father in this discipline of questionable quality. Is there any more to him except being haughty and ill-tempered?
Maybe he’s more devoted to his father and the oath, because he doesn’t question things.

Curufin.
He is said to resemble Fëanor the most. He had his skill in craft and also in mind (temper as well as rhetorics), not to mention the perilious moods. So, what doesn’t he have?
Ambition. Curufin seems to ever stand behind Celegorm. I always get the feeling that he is the “evil brain” within this duo.
Inspiration. I think this is the main difference. Despite all his abilities we don’t get to know anything that he has actually made. Even Angrist was made by the dwarves. Curufin is not the artist his father was.

Amrod and Amras
Very difficult, since we do not know too much about them. As Celegorm they’re hunters, and that seems to be it.
Maybe this is a little far-fetched, but they are the ones that live far south of their brothers with not much near them in every direction but wild country. I can’t find the quote right now, but doesn’t Fëanor use to explore Aman with his sons back in the days? Maybe it’s this restlessness of the heart that found its way into the twins.


Now, is Fëanor just a part of the sum of these parts?
Partially, I would say. There’s that fire, that burns inside him, that he seems to not have passed onto one of his sons. Their sum does not yield that genius that was Fëanor. His bad traits, however, all seem to have found their way.


I’m looking forward to your opinions.

[Anguirel]

Macalaure, I suspect when you sat down to write that topic you thought "Right. How do I delay Anguirel's history revision?"

Of course I'm hooked. I'll be quite happy to give this a go.

Maedhros

As the eldest-born, he attracts allegiance although his contemplative character is in some ways unsuited to it. He accepts it as his duty.

I think, in terms of personal prowess, he is probably equal to or superior to his father. We see a number of learning processes taking shape within him. The confidence at the beginning, imagining he can counter Morgoth's treachery at the embassy with his own. After the salutory lesson he then learns, you're right to say that his actions mostly fit into one Grand Plan-defeating Morgoth. Unlike Celegorm and Curufin, he doesn't let the idea of the Silmarils cloud the more important part of the Oath-taking the fight to the Dark Enemy of the World. So he cultivates Men and Dwarves. He talks peace with Thingol (at the one point when Maglor and Daeron may have met). He forms the Union.

It's interesting how the repentance part of Maedhros' character overlaps with Maglor's throughout the different versions-it was originally he who adopted Earendil's sons, for example. You feel that for more consistency, several deeds such as the search for Dior's sons should have been Maglor's too. But as it is we have a far more complicated, contradictory character.

The two flawed, worshipped clans in my head since childhood were first, Feanor's sons, and second, King Lot's-Sir Gawain and his brothers-as I've said before. Maedhros in his strange, divided way definitely recalls the conflicted Gawaine of Malory. Luckier than Gawaine, he does not outlive all his brothers-but he's not that much luckier...and you can be sure the loss of five will have lest terrible marks. He gets a grander death than Gawaine though, defiant self-destruction: a Don Giovanni moment.

If we're talking in Homeric terms, Maedhros is a combination of Hector and Ajax-humanity, prowess, but a darker madness beneath.

Come to think of it, I'm not going to explore all the sons now. You can expect the other six coming up later, as told by me for the umpteenth time.

[Aiwendil]

Very interesting topic, Macalaure. In a way, Feanor's sons can each be seen as representing one aspect of their father. Feanor's character seems to me to be more complex than that of any of his sons, as if he were the summation of all their personalities.

I do disagree on a few points regarding the interpretation of these characters' personalities.

The misdeeds of him and his brother lie heavily on him (interestingly not Alqualonde). He wishes he could fulfill the oath without it, but can’t. Still he disapproves unnecessary violence. This sort of self-reflection cannot be found in Fëanor at all, so it is one of Nerdanel’s gifts.

I'm not so sure. I think Feanor would disapprove of unnecessary violence. In his mind, the attack on Alqualonde was necessary - and note that he did attempt a non-violent solution first (arguing that the Teleri join him). Moreover, he does seem to show remorse on one occasion: his accidental slaying of Amrod at Losgar (see HoMe XII).

There’s only one short occasion where Maglor is in charge of his brothers – when Maedhros is hanging out at Thangorodrim. It’s interesting to see what happens when Fingolfin arrives: Maglor changes the sides – of the lake. Without Maedhros Fëanor’s Sons seem pretty help- and clueless.

I see Maglor's move here as a wise one. It seems to me that, relations not being particularly good between the host of Fingolfin and the host of Feanor at that time, there was a danger of violence if the two hosts were to meet (particularly with people like Caranthir present). By moving to the other side of the lake, Maglor may not have provided a long-term solution, but at least in the short run he avoided an unpleasant confrontation.

So, what doesn’t he have?
Ambition. Curufin seems to ever stand behind Celegorm. I always get the feeling that he is the “evil brain” within this duo.

I agree that he seems to stand behind Celegorm, but I don't think this reflects a lack of ambition. I think that if Curufin had had his way, Celegorm would have become King of Nargothrond, but Curufin would have been the true power behind the throne.

Inspiration. I think this is the main difference. Despite all his abilities we don’t get to know anything that he has actually made. Even Angrist was made by the dwarves. Curufin is not the artist his father was.

This is an interesting point. I wonder whether, perhaps, Curufin did produce works of art and craft that are not mentioned. In any case, it is surely significant that it was Curufin's son, Celebrimbor, who made the Elvish Rings of Power.

[Macalaure]

posted by Anguirel
He talks peace with Thingol (at the one point when Maglor and Daeron may have met).

Maedhros talks to Thingol face to face? That's only in the HoMe, isn't it? (I'm not through it, yet)

posted by Aiwendil
I'm not so sure. I think Feanor would disapprove of unnecessary violence. In his mind, the attack on Alqualonde was necessary - and note that he did attempt a non-violent solution first (arguing that the Teleri join him). Moreover, he does seem to show remorse on one occasion: his accidental slaying of Amrod at Losgar (see HoMe XII).

Alqualonde was necessary to Fëanor, but to Maedhros, too, I would say. He regrets a lot of his deeds, but never the first kinslaying.
But, as you say, the slaying of Amrod was an accident. I think that's something different.
Maybe I should have written "unnecessary misdeeds", like the burning of the ships, for example. The betrayal of Fingolfin was unnecessary - Fëanor doesn't care and Maedhros stands aside. Interesting to see that he only disobeys and does not oppose him. Also interesting to see that Maglor doesn't stand aside. Either his conscience hasn't yet kicked in, or he's a weaker person and does not dare to disobey his father. I would pick the latter.

I see Maglor's move here as a wise one.

But he doesn't solve anything, he only avoids the problem. One hour after Maedhros is back, everything is settled. It's really hard to interpret Maglor's intentions here. Maybe he wanted to solve it, but wasn't able to convince his brothers.

I agree that he seems to stand behind Celegorm, but I don't think this reflects a lack of ambition. I think that if Curufin had had his way, Celegorm would have become King of Nargothrond, but Curufin would have been the true power behind the throne.

I think you underestimate Celegorm. He wouldn't allow Curufin to manipulate him and Curufin is smart enough to know that.

[Anguirel]

Today you get...

Maglor

Maglor is my personal favourite character in Tolkien, yet I feel a certain distance when discussing him-more so than usual, even, with Silmarillion characters. I think that this is not unrelated to the fact that if working from the Translator Conceit, Maglor's Noldolante must have been one of the primary sources for what was to become the Silmarillion. I sometimes, well, often, like to speculate where Maglor's influence lies. I conclude that he must be most deeply felt in the Rape of the Silmarils, battles like the Nirnaeth, and the later Kinslayings-but not of course his final deed, after which he disappeared.

Oh blast it, I can't resist, I'm going to plug this thread of mine in passing: The Vanishing Harper.

What Maglor inherits of Feanor is of course the outstanding creativity and artistry. But I'd rather have Maglor's than Feanor's any day, because Maglor realises his skill doesn't give him any moral strength without humanity too. He's also escaped the curse of over-confidence, but I always imagine him with severe problems of under-confidence...without which he could have taken control of his brothers and protected them.

He lets himself be led by love. In this way he inherits Gawain's tragedy-he, not Maedhros, loses all his brothers, indeed everyone who means anything to him. He has to leave Elrond and Elros so as not to taint them; he has left a wife in Valinor.

Maglor inherits his mother Nerdanel's deeper wisdom; his sensible reaction of rejoicing at seeing the Silmaril in the sky, and his logical motive for breaking the Oath, are almost prophetic.

He has a rarely explored military side too. He, not Maedhros, holds the very hardest part of Beleriand to defend, and succeeds for a good long time. He joins Maedhros in his defiance on Himring. Bor and his sons swear to follow Maedhros, but also Maglor. And Maglor avenges the treachery against his brothers in the Nirnaeth, killing Uldor the Accursed.

It seems here that Tolkien is using a notion of moral virtue being rewarded by success in battle-"My strength is as the strength of ten/Because my heart is pure." I get the feeling sometimes that, despite popular misconceptions of a dreamy, pacific, melancholy bard, with Maglor in charge the whole Feanorion show might have run a good deal more smoothly.

EDIT: Of course this is something of an impossibility, as Maglor simply lacks the authority. But had he been, say, born the eldest son, I think his ability and tact might have led to ultimately happier results.

[Aiwendil]

Macalaure wrote:

Maybe I should have written "unnecessary misdeeds", like the burning of the ships, for example. The betrayal of Fingolfin was unnecessary - Fëanor doesn't care and Maedhros stands aside. Interesting to see that he only disobeys and does not oppose him.

True, and a good point. But I still tend to think that it's not that Feanor was missing the sense of compassion that Maedhros had - rather, Maedhros is missing some of the recklessness and anger that Feanor had.

But he doesn't solve anything, he only avoids the problem. One hour after Maedhros is back, everything is settled. It's really hard to interpret Maglor's intentions here.

He at least delays a potentially violent confrontation. It's true that he doesn't solve anything, but I suspect that many in Feanor's host (and particularly the likes of Caranthir, Celegorm, and Curufin) did not want to treat with Fingolfin yet. And it wasn't Maedhros's leadership that allowed him to settle things; it was Fingon's rescue of him. I don't necessarily think that Maglor did the right thing; but I think I can understand why it might look like a good move to him.

I think you underestimate Celegorm. He wouldn't allow Curufin to manipulate him and Curufin is smart enough to know that.

I don't think that Curufin would have been manipulating Celegorm - it seems to me that Celegorm was quite comfortable letting Curufin be the brains of the operation. But, as you said, Celegorm seems to have the greater charisma and therefore is better suited to take the role of leader publicly.

[Anguirel]

Today I reach that magnificent pillar of anti-heroism

Celegorm

Celegorm is one of the more heavily revised of the sons of Feanor-I'll be saying why that's important later. There is a case, if you approach the issue with a mind as admittedly partial as mine, for claiming he's been much maligned.

As for his resemblance (or not) to his father...perhaps it's the blonde curly hair that does it, but Celegorm seems to me far more of a conformist by nature than Feanor. In Valinor he apparently got on well enough with the Valar to be given Orome's hound, and was apparently the son of Feanor closest to Aredhel, Fingolfin's daughter, with whom he shared a similarity of temperament. Along with many other slightly revisionist readers of the Silmarillion, I see a rejected romance here. More on that in its proper place.

In terms of ability, Celegorm, as noted by Macalaure, inherited the fire of Feanor's oratory. Yet I would suggest that this was not tantamount to inheriting the talent entirely-Curufin seems to have received Feanor's more "persuasive" rhetoric.

Apart from that Celegorm has Feanor's impetuosity and ruthlessness in battle more than any of his brothers. The usually unsung star of the Dagor-Nan-Gileath, it was Celegorm who led the attack which reduced Morgoth's armies to the proverbial leaves blowing in the wind. Amidst the disaster of the Bragollach, The Grey Annals tell us that he managed to cut loose with Curufin and reach Minas Tirith in time to save Orodreth's life as the latter fled from Sauron. I like this version as it makes the political scene in Nargothrond much deeper. Finrod isn't lying when he tells Beren (I think) that Celegorm and Curufin have "helped him in every need." It also adds a dimension to the "wolf-hunts" of the brothers-every wolf killed is vengeance for Orodreth's defeat.

We don't know anything about his role in the Nirnaeth except that, though wounded, he escaped. But in his last battle, the Second Kinslaying, he sought out the enemy king Dior and slew him personally, though falling himself. Celegorm is not effete or lacking in warlike credentials!

Celegorm, politically, is also playing Maedhros' "Let's Fulfill the Oath" game. But his strategy has two-no, wait, three-besetting flaws. First, his flexible and consequentialist morals-he's willing to go down far worse means for far more remote ends than Maedhros. Second, he's gripped by the idea of the Silmarils, and the personal power they represent, and they, not Morgoth's defeat, are his ultimate aim. Third, his love-life.

Celegorm is not described as leaving a wife in Valinor, I don't think, which leaves us with two options-tragic Celegorm spurned by Aredhel and Celegorm the wild bachelor-until he meets Luthien. I think, myself, that in Aredhel's search for him we see her indecision, and that she had been a cruel coquette in Valinor, and now regretted it. Celegorm never saw her again, and his desire for another dark beauty, Luthien, was an attempt to compensate. Possibly. I'm aware that may be rather soap opera-esque for some of you...

Final note-Celegorm in the oldest versions of the Lay of Leithian was the founder and reigning King of Nargothrond. This is hard to incorporate with the new material, but is an interesting line of thought to consider. The Celegorm in this version acted honourably, despite feeling apparently genuine love for Luthien, and ended up helping the lovers.

EDIT: If anyone's still interested in my Orkney parallel, then Celegorm is Agravaine to Curufin's Mordred.

[Aiwendil]

Anguirel wrote:

perhaps it's the blonde curly hair that does it,

I know that Celegorm is said to have golden hair in the Geste, but I seem to remember that this was changed. Isn't it later said that the only Noldor with blond hair were those of the house of Finarfin?

In Valinor he apparently got on well enough with the Valar to be given Orome's hound, and was apparently the son of Feanor closest to Aredhel, Fingolfin's daughter, with whom he shared a similarity of temperament. Along with many other slightly revisionist readers of the Silmarillion, I see a rejected romance here.

I rather doubt this - they were first cousins, and a romance between them would have been seen as incestuous. Celegorm may have a dark side, but he's no Maeglin. Moreover, Maeglin's incestuous love for Idril is said to have been a consequence of the Kin-slaying (it's "evil fruit" I believe). So I have a hard time believing that such a thing would have arisen in Valinor before the flight of the Noldor.

[Lalaith]

was apparently the son of Feanor closest to Aredhel

Interesting take, Ang.
I'm not saying you're wrong, about the romance aspect, but I always took a different view, that the friendship was platonic, nothing more. And that was something I always saw as a redeeming feature of Celegorm, any chap who is willing to hang out with (ie hunt with) a girl as a friend and equal can't be all bad. Makes his lousy behaviour to Luthien all the more disappointing.
Anyway, this is a splendid thread and I must peruse more closely.

[Macalaure]

Aiwendil wrote:
He at least delays a potentially violent confrontation. It's true that he doesn't solve anything, but I suspect that many in Feanor's host (and particularly the likes of Caranthir, Celegorm, and Curufin) did not want to treat with Fingolfin yet. And it wasn't Maedhros's leadership that allowed him to settle things; it was Fingon's rescue of him. I don't necessarily think that Maglor did the right thing; but I think I can understand why it might look like a good move to him.

I agree. It might just have been the best conceivable action in his situation. It's sad we don't get a closer look at how Fëanor's sons came to the decision.

I don't think that Curufin would have been manipulating Celegorm - it seems to me that Celegorm was quite comfortable letting Curufin be the brains of the operation. But, as you said, Celegorm seems to have the greater charisma and therefore is better suited to take the role of leader publicly.

I disagree. Celegorm had enough brains of his own. It was him alone who talked Maedhros into attacking Doriath. Still Curufin's counsels were, doubtless, more than useful to him.

Anguirel wrote:
But in his last battle, the Second Kinslaying, he sought out the enemy king Dior and slew him personally, though falling himself. Celegorm is not effete or lacking in warlike credentials!

I should have noted that above, but Celegorm, to me, is the most skilled in warfare among the brothers in the beginning. Without his deeds, the Dagor-nuin-Giliath could have ended badly. He's later surpassed by Maedhros after his time in and over Angband.
It's hard to compare it to Fëanor's abilities. The battle of Alqualonde gives me a quite disorganized impression (excused - they hardly had any time for maneuvers), and in the second battle he is carried away by his emotions and pays for that.

Celegorm slew Dior? The Silmarillion says "There fell Celegorm by Dior's hand...".
By the way, a brilliant scene: The two "the Fair"s fighting each other.

Celegorm is not described as leaving a wife in Valinor, I don't think, which leaves us with two options-tragic Celegorm spurned by Aredhel and Celegorm the wild bachelor-until he meets Luthien.

Yet another parallel to Maedhros. Though so different in most respects, they share a surprising lot.
But I don't see any parellels between Aredhel and Lúthien, except hair colour. Celegorm and Aredhel (absolutely platonic relationship to me, too) seem to share something. I cannot describe it. But he doesn't compensate with Lúthien. I'd say it takes the coldness of a Curufin to not fall in love with her.

[Anguirel]

Interesting, though not to me altogether surprising, that Celegorm is proving to possess the greatest potential for controversy so far!

I'll approach matters one by one.

His Hair

In the published Silmarillion Celegorm is referred to as "the Fair", which is not a moral nor a general epithet, as I see it, particularly as it is contrasted with his brother Caranthir, "the Dark."

In the Lay of Leithian Celegorm is again repeatedly called "the Fair", or "fair Celegorm." In the Shibboleth I believe he is described explicitly as having a mane of golden curls. It seems to me that we have an exception to Finarfin's line here.

For me this works rather well with the general image I get of Celegorm, and I see no reason not to believe it.


His Private Life

Two women are important in working out this mystery-Aredhel and then Luthien. We are told that an Elf loves only once, yet we should perhaps remember that the known exception to the rule was Celegorm's grandfather...

It seems to me that looking at it from Tolkien's point of view, Celegorm and Aredhel's romance was a possibility he toyed with, but eventually could not really ratify because of the cousinage problem mentioned by Aiwendil. However, there are many hints for those, like me, who wish to conclude otherwise.

Celegorm and Aredhel are both hunters of repute with wilful, courageous personalities. Celegorm is, as mentioned above, picked out as being close to Aredhel. They are only half-cousins, which perhaps makes a difference-"the Eldar wedded not to kin so near." And it is strongly hinted at in the passage where it's stated that Aredhel "gave her heart to none of [the Sons of Feanor]" that she could have done.

It works, too, on Aredhel's side. Why did she mislead Turgon about riding to Fingon, only to order a change in direction to Celegorm and Curufin? (Curufin's importance here seeming rather geographical.) Furtive, resurgent, nostalgic love. Why did she linger so long in Celegorm's country?

Whether Celegorm truly loved Luthien I am not certain. Undoubtedly he did if we discount the Aredhel idea, though. One or both of them must have been, in my eyes, his true love. Yet why would Celegorm the Fair treat his true love with so little decency? Perhaps Curufin's counsel led him astray.


His Death

According to the Grey Annals, Celegorm and Dior slew each other in the halls of Menegroth.


His Wildness

From the start, Celegorm is picked from the rest of the brothers in a fundamental way. He defies the Noldor characteristic of being a pupil of Aule, instead visiting the Halls of Orome, who teaches him the tongue of all fair birds and beasts.

An ability shared by no other Noldor, and only one human...(here's the rub) Beren.

So perhaps there is a hint that his love for Tinuviel was true after all. He is the closest Elves get to the Man he despises. Certainly I think that Tinuviel might have been his salvation had fate been happier. Of course it wasn't.

But all in all, a better and more fascinating Elf than he is usually deemed.

[Lalaith]

Caranthir
Is there any more to him except being haughty and ill-tempered?

Well, yes there is. He behaved well and honourably to the People of Haleth, offering Haleth recompense for her dead brother and father. He saw "what valour there was in the people of the Edain." This is at a time when many of the elves (Thingol and the green-elves of Ossirand in particular) were inclined to despise them.
I do not think that Feanor would have had much time for Men, one of his greatest flaws was arrogance. So perhaps even Caranthir, so much his father's son, had something of his mother in him.

[Formendacil]

Originally Posted by Lalaith

Well, yes there is. He behaved well and honourably to the People of Haleth, offering Haleth recompense for her dead brother and father. He saw "what valour there was in the people of the Edain." This is at a time when many of the elves (Thingol and the green-elves of Ossirand in particular) were inclined to despise them.
I do not think that Feanor would have had much time for Men, one of his greatest flaws was arrogance. So perhaps even Caranthir, so much his father's son, had something of his mother in him.

Not just the people of Haleth. Of all the Sons of Fëanor, Caranthir was probably the most interracially concerned- except possibly for Maedhros. In addition to the People of Haleth, who ended up departing for Brethil, Caranthir was also closest of the Fëanorians to the Dwarves. He had a very close trading relationship with the Nogrodians, which stood the Eldar well against Glaurung.

And he was also the Fëanorian prince to whom the people of Uldor swore their allegiance. They proved faithless, it is true, but the very fact that Caranthir sought their allegiance is a mark in his favour, not against.

So, though Caranthir is much-maligned by fans as the "nasty" son of Fëanor, one could easily make a case that he was among the best of those same sons. His deliberate seeking out of allies and vassals from among the non-Eldar is in direct contrast to Celegorm and Curufin's scornful treatment of Beren.

[Macalaure]

Good points Formendacil and Lalaith.
Yet we are told there was few love between Caranthir and the dwarves.

I just browsed through the Shibboleth and found out that the name Caranthir = Red-face is not meant metaphorically (which I thought before). He indeed simply had a reddish skin-tone - inherited from his mother. Adding to that his father's hair, I more and more obtain the picture of a quite torn character.

(And, even though I don't get the impression that he was the smartest of the brothers, he was a clever businessman.)

His deliberate seeking out of allies and vassals from among the non-Eldar is in direct contrast to Celegorm and Curufin's scornful treatment of Beren.

They didn't despise Beren because he's a mortal, but because of that Silmaril thing - very bad circumstances to start with.
We don't get to know their general attitude towards men, I think.

[Macalaure]

I came to think about something which I don't think deserves its own thread. I post it here because it relates to the topic and because I'd like to revive this thread.

Why were Feanor's sons distributed over the March of Maedhros as they were? I especially wonder about Maglor, Celegorm and Curufin.

The Gap of Maglor was the most vulnerable spot of the whole siege of Angband. Yet Maglor defended it alone. Wouldn't it have made sense to put Celegorm and Curufin together at this point?

On the other hand, Maedhros planned to keep his brothers away from their cousins for the sake of everyone's peace. Celegorm and Curufin were two of those who Maedhros had to worry most about, yet they are the ones who live most west. Why not have Maglor here?

Also, this way it would have been Maglor who fled to Nargothrond, and many things would have come to pass in a different way in that realm.

[Anguirel]

Ah. I was missing this thread.

Well, as you can see above, I think Maglor was actually rather astute and valiant in military matters. His sobriquet in the Geste is, after all, Maglor the Mighty. He is the slayer of Uldor the Accursed. And he does succeed in guarding the Gap for ages-make no mistake about it, whether there was one brother there or seven, the Gap would have fallen at the time of the Bragollach. The geography simply does not allow sufficient warriors to be deployed to counter Glaurung and a renewed host. Maglor did the best he could.

Your point about Maglor's superior diplomatic abilities is a good one-he was present at the Feast of Reuniting, with Maedhros-but don't forget that Celegorm and Curufin had a fine veneer of these attributes as well. And some genuine diplomatic qualities. Their combined oratory could exert vast influence, vaster than that of any other Elf save Feanor, I suspect; Celegorm was a dynamic leader in a crisis, and is recorded as rescuing Orodreth.

Swapping round the brothers could make for fascinating fanfiction though.

Now, I ought to get round to contributing my views on Caranthir-many of which have been ably laid out previously, though.

[Formendacil]

Originally Posted by Macalaure

I came to think about something which I don't think deserves its own thread. I post it here because it relates to the topic and because I'd like to revive this thread.

Why were Feanor's sons distributed over the March of Maedhros as they were? I especially wonder about Maglor, Celegorm and Curufin.

The Gap of Maglor was the most vulnerable spot of the whole siege of Angband. Yet Maglor defended it alone. Wouldn't it have made sense to put Celegorm and Curufin together at this point?

On the other hand, Maedhros planned to keep his brothers away from their cousins for the sake of everyone's peace. Celegorm and Curufin were two of those who Maedhros had to worry most about, yet they are the ones who live most west. Why not have Maglor here?

Also, this way it would have been Maglor who fled to Nargothrond, and many things would have come to pass in a different way in that realm.

Ah, but you ignore certain facets of Beleriand's geography... The Pass of Aglon and the surrounding area may have been westward-most of the Fëanorian holdings, but it was also pretty much a dead-end street. Not very many Elves came down Nan Dungortheb to hang out with Celegorm and Curufin. The only people we know to have passed through that land were Aredhel, coming east from Gondolin, and later going back west with Maeglin, and Beren crossing it north/south from Dorthonion to Doriath. And in both cases, attention is paid to the fact that the land between the Ered Gorgoroth and the north-march of Doriath was NOT a place for the tender, nor a place much-frequented by anybody of sense.

To the north-west of Aglon lays Dorthonion- but we sort of have mountains there to prevent a real east/west flow of traffic from the lands of Aegnor.

To the south-west of Aglon lies Doriath- closed to most of the Noldor anyway, and certainly to any Fëanorians.

So Aglon was definitely not the Front Door to Himring (whatever the tourism promoters may have said). If anything, it was the end-of-the-hallway closet of the House of Fëanor.

The Gap of Maglor, on the other hand, was quite probably the main door to East Beleriand, for the Noldor. While it would be equally easy to come up the southern way, 'neath Doriath, past Estolad, and up through the lands of Amras, it would be a much longer journey for Fingon and any other Fingolfinians coming from Hithlum, than just heading across the Ard-galen- and prior to the Bragollach, this was fairly safe territory. We are even told the Noldor grazed their horses here.

As for contact between Nargothrond and Himring, I'll admit to not seeing a huge distance difference between the North route through the Gap and the south route through Amras's lands. But distance aside, there would have been a lot more settlements and civilization on the northern route- which also would have taken any travelling ambassadors from Nargothrond right through/past the Finarfinian fief of Dorthonion.

*End Talking. It's possible... not having a map... that I've shot myself in the foot with an incorrect statement somewhere... I hope not... that's embarassing*

[Macalaure]

That makes sense. Thank you!