how do the wise become wise - The Barrow-Downs Discussion Forum

01-13-2002, 10:27 PM

here is a question to occupie your little mind, how do the wise become wise??? are they born with the intllegence of elders or do they take years of studies to learn all, if so where do they study. where is this vast palace of endless knowledge???

zifnab · 01-14-2002, 10:52 AM

Well, I always thought that their was a difference in "wisdom", and "intelligence". I think wisdom does not come from a book but from real-life.

Gayahithwen · 01-14-2002, 12:51 PM

I totally agree with zifnab.. You can't be born "wise" you have to learn through time..

Elendil · 01-14-2002, 05:18 PM

I agree Zifnab, I know some people who can't learn in school but who are wise.

01-14-2002, 06:22 PM

I agree, but to learn all the knowledge through a course of a life is almost impossible, you must live numerus life times to learn the such great masses of knowledge. How can you do this with such little time. Unless you a immortal I do'nt see how it is possible.
null

Elendil · 01-14-2002, 06:28 PM

Not by being immortal, but by reincarnation.

Pippin · 01-15-2002, 06:26 AM

do you ask a fish hw it swims?
or a bird how it flies?

nope, natural talent, improved with age and experience

Fenrir · 01-15-2002, 12:02 PM

Even immortality and high natural intelligence doesn't make some people wise. Look at the Lord of the Nazgul. Brilliant strategist, just didn't have the sense to drop his mace and run when he met Eowyn.

Hama · 01-15-2002, 12:48 PM

Well, The Wise, in the context of LOTR are all immortal. So they've had plenty of tuime to accumulate the knowledge and skills to make themselves wise: being superbeings, eg Wizards and Elves also helps, them being probably rather cleverer than the average Human. Not having to worry about imminent death through old age also perhaps helps: can take the long view and study things in more depth.

I think that in general, wisdom/cleverness/intelligence all revolve around being able to make connections in your mind between the different things you have learnt or seen

Eowyn of Ithilien · 01-16-2002, 02:29 AM

"I'd like my children to consider me as wise, my friends to see me as intelligent and my enemies to think I'm clever"
*shamelessly transcribed what a friend once said*

zifnab · 01-16-2002, 11:27 AM

I like that Eowyn of Ithilien!

[img]smilies/smile.gif[/img] [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img] [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img] [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img]

Elrian · 01-16-2002, 05:04 PM

They had books and scrolls full of lore, both Men and Elves. The Red Book of Westmarch that was written by Bilbo, Frodo, and Sam could be called Hobbit lore.

01-16-2002, 07:09 PM

Wisdom is gained only through experience and reflection upon that experience. The ability to see the big picture as well as patience are what make a person wise. I guess the elves and wizards are wise because they have had time to see many things and how they change over time. They understand why things are the way they are because they saw how they started way back when. They've seen how things happened in the past so they can more easily see where things are leading in the present.

01-16-2002, 09:54 PM

Ok I see, I just was wondering how all that all happened. well I thank you all for your own additions to this colum this has really helped me on my question. I was totaly lost on this subject...
Thank you once again..
Gandalf [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img]

Dáin Ironfoot · 01-17-2002, 03:59 PM

Yes, i believe that it takes years to become wise, but sometimes in the books, younger falks are wiser than the older. Look at Hurin at the Battle of unnumbered tears. The elves wanted to attack, but he cautioned them to wait, but they did not, and look what happened. Also, Faramir seems to me to be more wise than Denethor.......less lore, more wisdom. THe whole wisdom thing depends.

01-20-2002, 04:04 PM

Well someone once said to me that the truely wise people know that they aren't the wisest. So i guess we all are pretty darn wise in a sense. [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img]

Legolas · 01-22-2002, 05:55 PM

I think wisdom isn't necessarily from experience only. Wisdom is when you observe and can make connections without someone laying it out for you, whether you're directly involved or not.

01-22-2002, 06:25 PM

I think that you people left out one VERY important point. Some Elves had been alive for over 3000 years, ie. Elrond, Galadriel, Celeborn, etc... Do you not think that they had seen battle? They had only fought orks for thousands of years, and if they survived, they must have been able to predict what the orks were going to do... Wise could just be something that you had experienced in the past... Thought that I should bring that up.

River Jordan · 01-30-2002, 12:21 AM

Just thought I'd add a quick comment to this discussion, as I'm skipping merrily through the Barrow-Downs! In my mind, I see wisdom and intelligence as being two different things. To me, intelligence is the "smarts" that you are born with, which refers to the ability to thinking logically, mathematically, etc. Wisdom, on the other hand, refers more to that which is gained by experience, and ones ability to relate and respond to the world around him or her. You can be really intelligent, and "on paper" know how to do math equations, etc, but not be really wise when it comes to the affairs of life. Likewise, one may not have "school-smarts", but may be a very wise person. So in a sense, there is a greater opportunity for older people having more wisdom, having had more experiences, and yet, there are many young people who have much wisdom as well. How does one become wise? A final thought from the Old Testament Scriptures of the Bible - "He who walks with the wise will become wise." If you hang around wise people, you will grow in wisdom as well!

Your friendly neighbourhood elf, *River*

"You have proved mightiest, and all your labours have gone well" Treebeard to Gandalf

Carannillion · 01-30-2002, 11:20 AM

Well then I guess this is a nice place to hang around, don't you? [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img]

And also, the question 'What is intelligence?' has been a matter of debate the recent years. Mensa, the international 'club for the intelligent' has had to make new guidelines and new tests for determining whether or not a person is to be considered to be intelligent. IQ does no longer apply.

Hama · 01-30-2002, 11:27 AM

IQ tests are pretty much tests of how well you can do IQ tests... I guess that is the problem with any test-based measure of intelligence: technique comes into it.

Maybe the only way we can define who is intelligent/wise etc is to observe them in action over a period of time, building up a picture

01-13-2002, 10:27 PM	#1
GANDALF@ Guest Posts: n/a	how do the wise become wise here is a question to occupie your little mind, how do the wise become wise??? are they born with the intllegence of elders or do they take years of studies to learn all, if so where do they study. where is this vast palace of endless knowledge???

01-14-2002, 10:52 AM	#2
zifnab Shade of Carn Dûm Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: omni-presence Posts: 329	Well, I always thought that their was a difference in "wisdom", and "intelligence". I think wisdom does not come from a book but from real-life. __________________ Facebook.

01-14-2002, 12:51 PM	#3
Gayahithwen Wight Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: The chat-room. Posts: 241	I totally agree with zifnab.. You can't be born "wise" you have to learn through time.. __________________ Before you criticize someone, walk a mile in his shoes. That way, if he gets angry, he'll be a mile away - and barefoot.

01-15-2002, 06:26 AM	#7
Pippin Haunting Spirit Join Date: Nov 2001 Location: I don't know, I'm lost! Posts: 85	do you ask a fish hw it swims? or a bird how it flies? nope, natural talent, improved with age and experience __________________ never mind the pint.... does it come in gallons???

01-15-2002, 12:02 PM	#8
Fenrir Wight Join Date: Oct 2001 Location: Nevrast Posts: 103	Even immortality and high natural intelligence doesn't make some people wise. Look at the Lord of the Nazgul. Brilliant strategist, just didn't have the sense to drop his mace and run when he met Eowyn. __________________ Fearlessness is better than a faint-heart for any man who puts his nose out of doors. The length of my life and the day of my death were fated long ago.

01-14-2002, 05:18 PM	#4
Elendil Haunting Spirit Join Date: Oct 2000 Posts: 57	I agree Zifnab, I know some people who can't learn in school but who are wise.

01-14-2002, 06:22 PM	#5
GANDALF@ Guest Posts: n/a	I agree, but to learn all the knowledge through a course of a life is almost impossible, you must live numerus life times to learn the such great masses of knowledge. How can you do this with such little time. Unless you a immortal I do'nt see how it is possible. null

01-14-2002, 06:28 PM	#6
Elendil Haunting Spirit Join Date: Oct 2000 Posts: 57	Not by being immortal, but by reincarnation.

01-15-2002, 12:48 PM	#9
Hama Pile O'Bones Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: Olde London Towne Posts: 23	Well, The Wise, in the context of LOTR are all immortal. So they've had plenty of tuime to accumulate the knowledge and skills to make themselves wise: being superbeings, eg Wizards and Elves also helps, them being probably rather cleverer than the average Human. Not having to worry about imminent death through old age also perhaps helps: can take the long view and study things in more depth. I think that in general, wisdom/cleverness/intelligence all revolve around being able to make connections in your mind between the different things you have learnt or seen __________________ Fly you fools

01-16-2002, 02:29 AM	#10
Eowyn of Ithilien Shade of Carn Dûm Join Date: Oct 2001 Location: Australia Posts: 277	"I'd like my children to consider me as wise, my friends to see me as intelligent and my enemies to think I'm clever" shamelessly transcribed what a friend once said __________________ But of bliss and glad life there is little to be said, before it ends; as works fair and wonderful, while still they endure for eyes to see, are their own record, and only when they are in peril or broken for ever do they pass into song.

01-16-2002, 11:27 AM	#11
zifnab Shade of Carn Dûm Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: omni-presence Posts: 329	I like that Eowyn of Ithilien! [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img] [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img] [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img] [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img] __________________ Facebook.

01-16-2002, 05:04 PM	#12
Elrian Eldar Spirit of Truth Join Date: Oct 2001 Location: Land of the FREE, Home of the BRAVE Posts: 794	They had books and scrolls full of lore, both Men and Elves. The Red Book of Westmarch that was written by Bilbo, Frodo, and Sam could be called Hobbit lore. __________________ ~Call me a relic, call me what you will. Say I'm old fashioned , say I'm over the hill. That old whine ain't got no soul. I'll stick to Old Toby and a Hobbit hole.~

01-16-2002, 07:09 PM	#13
Fissh, nice fissh Guest Posts: n/a	Wisdom is gained only through experience and reflection upon that experience. The ability to see the big picture as well as patience are what make a person wise. I guess the elves and wizards are wise because they have had time to see many things and how they change over time. They understand why things are the way they are because they saw how they started way back when. They've seen how things happened in the past so they can more easily see where things are leading in the present.

01-16-2002, 09:54 PM	#14
GANDALF@ Guest Posts: n/a	Ok I see, I just was wondering how all that all happened. well I thank you all for your own additions to this colum this has really helped me on my question. I was totaly lost on this subject... Thank you once again.. Gandalf [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img]

01-17-2002, 03:59 PM	#15
Dáin Ironfoot Animated Skeleton Join Date: Dec 2001 Posts: 33	Yes, i believe that it takes years to become wise, but sometimes in the books, younger falks are wiser than the older. Look at Hurin at the Battle of unnumbered tears. The elves wanted to attack, but he cautioned them to wait, but they did not, and look what happened. Also, Faramir seems to me to be more wise than Denethor.......less lore, more wisdom. THe whole wisdom thing depends. __________________ "Understanding your people paves the road to understanding leadership"- Old Atreides maxim

01-20-2002, 04:04 PM	#16
Ploi Guest Posts: n/a	Well someone once said to me that the truely wise people know that they aren't the wisest. So i guess we all are pretty darn wise in a sense. [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img]

01-22-2002, 05:55 PM	#17
Legolas A Northern Soul Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: Valinor Posts: 1,847	I think wisdom isn't necessarily from experience only. Wisdom is when you observe and can make connections without someone laying it out for you, whether you're directly involved or not. __________________ ...take counsel with thyself, and remember who and what thou art.

01-22-2002, 06:25 PM	#18
sk8er74t Guest Posts: n/a	I think that you people left out one VERY important point. Some Elves had been alive for over 3000 years, ie. Elrond, Galadriel, Celeborn, etc... Do you not think that they had seen battle? They had only fought orks for thousands of years, and if they survived, they must have been able to predict what the orks were going to do... Wise could just be something that you had experienced in the past... Thought that I should bring that up.

01-30-2002, 12:21 AM	#19
River Jordan Animated Skeleton Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: Surrey, BC, Canada Posts: 27	Just thought I'd add a quick comment to this discussion, as I'm skipping merrily through the Barrow-Downs! In my mind, I see wisdom and intelligence as being two different things. To me, intelligence is the "smarts" that you are born with, which refers to the ability to thinking logically, mathematically, etc. Wisdom, on the other hand, refers more to that which is gained by experience, and ones ability to relate and respond to the world around him or her. You can be really intelligent, and "on paper" know how to do math equations, etc, but not be really wise when it comes to the affairs of life. Likewise, one may not have "school-smarts", but may be a very wise person. So in a sense, there is a greater opportunity for older people having more wisdom, having had more experiences, and yet, there are many young people who have much wisdom as well. How does one become wise? A final thought from the Old Testament Scriptures of the Bible - "He who walks with the wise will become wise." If you hang around wise people, you will grow in wisdom as well! Your friendly neighbourhood elf, River "You have proved mightiest, and all your labours have gone well" Treebeard to Gandalf __________________ Your friendly neighbourhood elf, Lostlaithion River Jordan "Go not to the Elves for counsel, for they will say both no and yes." Frodo Baggins http://www.angelfire.com/bc/YMF

01-30-2002, 11:20 AM	#20
Carannillion Wight Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: Mici Firya Posts: 135	Well then I guess this is a nice place to hang around, don't you? [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img] And also, the question 'What is intelligence?' has been a matter of debate the recent years. Mensa, the international 'club for the intelligent' has had to make new guidelines and new tests for determining whether or not a person is to be considered to be intelligent. IQ does no longer apply. __________________ A cry for the people, but there's noone there to hear...

01-30-2002, 11:27 AM	#21
Hama Pile O'Bones Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: Olde London Towne Posts: 23	IQ tests are pretty much tests of how well you can do IQ tests... I guess that is the problem with any test-based measure of intelligence: technique comes into it. Maybe the only way we can define who is intelligent/wise etc is to observe them in action over a period of time, building up a picture __________________ Fly you fools