WWJ VIII ~ Things That Go "Quack" In The Night

[Diamond18]

In the little, out-of-the-way village of Ducktapia, situated on the shores of Wereduck Pond, legend and myth are a money making enterprise. Tourists and travelers passing through the quaint little town drop their coin in the kitschy gift shops selling angry looking stuffed ducks and lurid tales of murder and mayhem. There is a sign posted on the edge of town that reads, “Ask Not for Whom the Duck Quacks, It Quacks for Thee.”

No one who lives in Ducktapia truly believes in the old tales of evil that lurk in the pond -- it’s all campfire stories and children’s games. The motley assortment of species that dwell in this most singular of villages -- hobbits, dwarves, men, elves, and the odd reformed orc -- blissfully fish, swim, and occasionally jet ski in the cool waters of Wereduck Pond.

Yet, hark, for from the darkest depths of the deepest puddle comes a quack, quack, quacking. Out from a nest of unspeakable evil waddles a creature so foul even the Ringwraiths fear the flap of its wing. A creeping disease drips from its bill of doom, infecting those who were once fair, turning them fowl like unto itself. Even as it creeps back to the hell from whence it came, it leaves in its wake the spawn of its general unpleasantness.

Beware!

Beware its devil eyes and loathsome down, for they mean death, despair, and doom to all.

Who are these creatures, once upstanding and trustworthy, now twisted and dark? Who now prey on their fellow villagers? Which of them waddles among us?

Sadly, these questions must go unanswered, nay, unasked, until death slaps its clammy, webbed foot down upon the neck of the first victim.

See the Tol-in-Gaurhoth Junior thread for details, sign-up, etc. Please do not post here until the beginning of the game.

[Diamond18]

Welcome to the game of Wereducks. A refresher of the Werewolf rules and a review of my variations are as follows, please read carefully:

Seventeen villagers there shall be
In fair Ducktapia down by the sea

Ten poor Ordos there shall see
That evil Wereducks shall there be three

The fearless Hawk will number one
And a Nightingale will join the fun

One mad Goose a Duck wants to be
One noble Owl looks for truths to See

One secret to discover there shall be
In fair Ducktapia down by the sea

Yes, I am the ill fated Halfling poet so my game intro must be in bad rhyme. Now in plain English:

There will be 10 Ordos, 3 Wereducks, 1 Hawk, 1 Nightingale, 1 Goose, and 1 Owl. PLUS there is a secret aspect to this game the nature of which I will not reveal but if any of you can figure it out before the game ends, the person who does so will get special adulation when I ape Mith’s modding and give out awards.

There are two phases to the game, Night and Day.

During the Night the three Wereducks PM each other and decided on one villager to kill. Each Wereduck must PM me the agreed upon kill separately. Also during the Night the Owl may PM me to learn the guilt or innocence of one villager. The Nightingale must PM me with the name of a villager s/he wishes to protect should the Ducks attempt to kill that player.

During the Day all villagers discuss the situation and must decide who to lynch on suspicion of being a Wereduck. There will be NO double lynchings and NO retraction of votes. If at the end of the Day there is a tie, the first villager to reach the fated number will be the one to die.

The Hawk and the Nightingale may PM each other at any time, Day or Night.

The Hawk may PM me at any time, Day or Night to select one villager to kill should s/he die either by lynching or at the hands of the Wereducks. If they had hands. At any rate, the last name PMed to me at the time of the Hawk’s death shall be the Hawk’s victim.

The Goose wants the Ducks to win and must work toward this goal during the Day, but s/he may not PM anyone at any time. The Ducks do not know who s/he is and s/he does not know who the Ducks are.

Ordos may not PM anyone at anytime.

The game ends when:

The Wereducks bring down the villagers to match their number. This results in a Wereduck Win.

Or

The Villagers kill every last Wereduck. This results in a Village Win.

The game begins NOW with a Night Phase. The Wereducks and the Hawk/Nightingale may PM each other starting now. (There is no need for the Ducks, Hawk, or Nightingale to PM me the first night.) The Owl must PM me within those next 24 hours to learn the identity of one other villager. NOTE: I will only be revealing whether a person is a Duck or Not A Duck. The Owl will not learn whether the Innocents are Gifteds or Ordos. By this same token, when an Innocent dies I will NOT be revealing whether or not s/he was a Gifted.

I think that’s it.

Night 1 has now begun but you may not post in this thread till the Day begins.

[Diamond18]

Late one April night Diamond Took, the Halfling Poet, sat in her cellar scratching out poorly rhyming phrases onto parchment with a quill pen. She lived in the cellar of the local Saggar Maker, for she was a singular hobbit in that she preferred her home to be dank and smelly. She was hard pressed to find any really good nasty, wet, dark holes to live in that were not already taken up by those bothersome reformed Orcs, and the rent for the cellar was cheap. The nice smell of decay often helped inspire her poetry.

On this night, however, even the smell of earthworms waking up was not enough to fuel her creativity. “Oh bother,” she cried, crumpling up the paper and tossing it into the wastebasket. “This will never come out right! I wish I were an Elf! Poetry comes so naturally to them, blast those poncy fools!”

“Quack.”

“What? What was that?” she looked up, but in the long ensuing silence heard nothing more. She gave a shrug and set to scratching out her poetry again, and for a time the rasping of the feather tip was the only sound.

“Quack.”

Diamond looked up, and eyed the door dubiously. “Some kid,” she muttered, “playing a prank.”

That gave her an idea, so she crumpled up the sheet again and started over. “Yes, yes,” she smiled to herself as curling lines of ink poured themselves over the paper, “this is more like it.”

“Quack.”

“All right, young prankster, that’s enough,” the hobbit planted her hairy feet on the earthen floor and stomped over to the cellar door. “It’s hard enough writing poetry without constant interruption.” She flung open the door to let in the night, but something far worse awaited her. “No,” she stumbled backwards, eyes widening in fear at the terrifying sight, “it can’t be...!”

Quoth the Wereducks, “Quack. Quack. Quack.”


~ Day One ~


The villagers found her the next morning, draped over her writing desk, covered in blood and welts. All over the floor were bloody, webbed footprints. Beside her body lay the beginnings of a poem:

Once upon a midnight dreary, while I pondered, weak and weary,
Over many an ill and awkward line of my rhyming chore,
While I nodded, nearly napping, presently there came a quacking,
Someone there was gently quacking, quacking at my cellar door.
“ ’Tis some prankster,” I muttered, “quacking at my cellar door;
Only this, and nothing more.”

“It can’t be,” said the hobbits among them. “It’s just a legend!”

“Look,” said one astute human, “there are three sets of footprints. There are three of them!”

“We shall chop off their heads,” growled the dwarven folk.

“We snapums neuckums!” declared the Orcs, helpfully.

“Oh, will our village ever be the same again?” wondered the Ent.

Quoth the Elven, “Nevermore!”

~~~~~~~~~

~ The Dead ~

Diamond Took, the Halfling Poet ~ Villager ~ Pecked to death on Night 1

~ The Living ~

Anguirel the Baritone Bird Catcher
Mithalwen the Elven Saggar Maker's Bottom Knocker
Saucepan Man the Orcish Scarecrow
Mormegil the Elven Idleman
Valier the Dwarven Millet Spray Picker
Nogrod the Dwarven Personal Fitness Instructor
Kath the Rainbow Catcher
Cailín the Bird-portraitist
Roa Aoife the Batwoman
Nilpaurion Felagund the Elven Pigeon-Summoning Ninja
Glirdan the Entish Tree Herder
Lote22 the Elven Igloo Maker
Lalaith the Halfling Chubb Fuddler
JennyHallu the Halfling Mountaintop Guru
Elu Ancalime the Didgeridoo Dwarf
Sleepy Ranger the Exiled Jedi Master
Dancing Spawn of Ungoliant the Spider Loving Orcish Astronaut

Day 1 starts now.

[Glirdan]

Ho hum...This is a tragedy. I greatly enjoyed that young Halflings poetry. Ho hummmm ho!! I can't believe that someone in this here village (wait, what am I doing living in a village? Oh well, I'll figure that out later...) would be as cruel as this and that the legend is real. But the proof is right in front of us. We must catch these hrrruuuummm ducks before they can strike again!! For our dear Diamond!! I promise you, I will find all these Ducks and get revenge for you my friend!! Hooo huuummmmm!!!

I suggest watching those two evil folk as you Men, Dwarves and Elves would call them. There is a far older name for them in the language of Ents, yet it is to long to say. Anyway, what was I saying? Right...We must watch that Orc and Spider. I'm sure they're up to some mischief. Spiders tend to spin webs of lies, definetly watch that one. As for the Orc...what is he doing living amongst us peacable folk? Definetly watch them I will. Hrrrrrrruuuuuuummmmmm!!!

[Glirdan]

Sorry for the double post, but I must retire to the woods and go herd those trees now. I shall be back later with some thoughts.

[mormegil]

Meh, Diamond really didn't provide me with much by the way of entertainment. Though if this continues I may wind up dead too, which would prove too tragic to imagine. My poor life cut short after only two ages. *sigh* Well I would like to pay somebody to solve this for me. Any takers? I pay well.

[Valier]

Gggggrrrrr What's all this? Diamond dead? *Strokes beard* I don't like the looks of this at all! I can't say I cared much for her poetry,but this is unacceptable! I never wanted her dead. We must do what we can to weed out these villans. I must take time to think on this, but I will return.

[Cailín]

Well. Wereducks, eh? From what deep pit of hell did that horror first wobble out?

I trust none of ye. And let them Elves, Ents and Halflings not start with their holier-than-thou attitude, for I have to say I suspect them the most. Maybe a bit too much in tune with nature, if you get what I mean.

I shall definitely not vote Dancing Spawn -even though she is a nasty smelly orc- or Anguirel toDay, since they will probably be attacked toNight anyway. Unless they accidentally quack, in which case I will have to catch them in pretty pastels before chopping of their traitorous heads. But let us not assume too much.

Strategies? Sense? If we were sensible, we'd burn down this village and rid our precious world from this terrible, quacking evil once and for all. No takers? Then I guess analysis is the way to go. How painfully dull.

[Anguirel]

Der Vogelfänger bin ich ja...

Glirdan the Ent is being oddly hasty. How curious. Perhaps he's no true Ent but, in fact, a foul (fowl?) webbed predator!

Yet he is, after all, a fairly young Ent. Almost an Enting by my reckoning. So, Glirdan, be not so quick to accuse on account of race. Outcasts of society, the unfortunate Orcs make easy targets, but I'm sure if we give them a chance they'll be a vast help to the community. Unless they are ducks, that is...

Mormegil, you must help yourself. Idle as you may be, you are an Elf and reputed a wise one! Let us have more thought from you...

[Anguirel]

Originally Posted by Cailín

Well. Wereducks, eh? From what deep pit of hell did that horror first wobble out?

I trust none of ye. And let them Elves, Ents and Halflings not start with their holier-than-thou attitude, for I have to say I suspect them the most. Maybe a bit too much in tune with nature, if you get what I mean.

I shall definitely not vote Dancing Spawn -even though she is a nasty smelly orc- or Anguirel toDay, since they will probably be attacked toNight anyway.

Spot the contradiction! Or is that supposed to be...witty? Frivolity at a time like this!

Your comment about the next death is rather depressing, Miss Bird-Portraitist...but not necessarily correct. Experience-as I suspect you well know-will play but a part in the ducks' decision-the rest determined by what we do or say. If any of us in our perambulations strikes too well upon a culprit, they may well be punished for it.

Remember the words regarding the Seer: What did the victim get right? Why did the ducks kill him/her? Complicated by the fact we won't even know if the ducks are right or not...

This new state of affairs, killings remaining mysterious, will cause much befuddlement and for a start greatly increase the hampering powers of, say, the Goose. Still, we must put up with it...

Should we discuss this angle of the situation and how to deal with it? Do any of you have any other questions to raise? Or are you content to sit and fling insults at each other?

[Cailín]

Well, well, Ang, dear. No need to yell at me. Of course, I do prefer just randomly insulting people but if you wish me to be serious than I will. You are limiting me in my freedom of artistic expression, you are.

The new situation does seem rather troublesome. I fear though, that we will have to keep public discussion limited and let each Gifted handle it as they choose. We will know, of course, when the Hawk dies, the Nightingale is rather inconsequential, but the painful part is not being sure of our Owl. Never follow blindly the words of the dead, that is my advice.

And let it come. We will see. It might harm the Ducks more than us.

Besides, there is no contradiction there. I do not like people acting better than me, but that does not mean I cannot act better than others. 'Cause strangely, I have no problems with that at all.

[dancing spawn of ungoliant]

Originally Posted by Ang

This new state of affairs, killings remaining mysterious, will cause much befuddlement and for a start greatly increase the hampering powers of, say, the Goose. Still, we must put up with it...

Should we discuss this angle of the situation and how to deal with it? Do any of you have any other questions to raise? Or are you content to sit and fling insults at each other?

Well, the biggest problem, I think, is that we don't know when the Goose is dead and therefore we don't know how many foes there are left. But then again, the Ducks and the Goose don't know each other, so it baffles them just as much. I've heard tales of Villages where the Seer was lost early on and still they survived. I think our situation can be compared to that. The Seer may reveal themselves before their death, and they may not. It's up to them and that's it. In any case, we have to trust our own abilities as much as possible, but that's nothing new, now is it?

About throwing insults at each other, sometimes they turn out to be handy, too... you lot of useless ghazbgûrgnizgs!!! Okay, maybe not that kind of insults. However, the sooner we seriously start going after the Ducks, the more material we will have to build our cases on.

Hey, a question: are the Ducks able to PM during Day, too? If they are, that might make them slightly bolder voting-wise, for example...

[Lalaith]

A halfling dead! Our noble rhymster! We were already outnumbered in this village...
I too am troubled by the prospect of our Owl dying without trace, as it were.

I fear though, that we will have to keep public discussion limited

This I agree with, in as far as we should not speculate as to the gifted status of the living. But I do think we should speculate as to general strategy, particularly now in these early days when there is little else to talk about.

We could of course go by the rule that the Ducks will kill the villager who appears to them most Owlish, and so we could assume that the dead one got something right. On the other hand, though, Ducks could select their kill in order deliberately to confuse.

are the Ducks able to PM during Day, too?

Well, the rules say

During the Night the three Wereducks PM each other

. So I assume they can't PM during the day. But maybe Moddess Goddess could confirm.

[Nilpaurion Felagund]

I have eyes everywhere . . . no, not that way.

I am unseen. I am unfelt. I can see and hear much this way. Therefore I have gathered much information about all of you, and from this I have determined . . .

Uh, what's with the scroll?

i-inu-tori-saru-hitsuji . . . Aka Higi: Hyakki no Pigeon*!

With this I shall defend this village! (Not a reference to Gift.)

So, I'll leave these pigeons with you. I have to go.

++Nilpaurion Felagund
__________________
Secret Red Technique: Hundred Pigeons.

[Nogrod]

Hello there fellow villagers!

I agree with the point of doing something reasonable on the first day.

One thing I've been thinking, is that we would be decent villagers, if we were to try and help the owl to begin with. The situation is a new one - and at least I, if I were a seer, would be more than happy to hear other peoples opinions about the tactics. Many heads see the problematic issues better than one. That would, then be, really building our first defences.

What worries me in this situation, is that we stand a very high risk of losing all the dreams, with no way to convince ourselves, whose post are worth looking really closely. Just think of the confusion, when we start to guess, on the basis of one's or other's post afterwards, whether their suspicions were owl-like or not! And then the wereducks plotting in the midst of that chaos...

[The Saucepan Man]

Grrr! The nasty Wereducks killed the nice Halfling poet. I don’t hold much with poetry and the like. It makes my head hurt. But Miss Took was kind to me and did not treat me as an outcast just ‘cos I’m an Orc, unlike some I could mention.

*Glares at Glirdan*

But Halflings are weak and easy prey for these evil Ducks. Not like us Orcs. We are strong. We command! I have no fear of Ducks. They should fear me, ‘cos it’s my job to scare birds and I’m good at it. I will laugh in the face of their misshapen bills! I will roar to drown out their ridiculous quacks! I will spit on their downy backs! No, they hold no fear for me. So let’s hunt them down like the overgrown game-birds that they are!

Originally Posted by Glirdan

I suggest watching those two evil folk as you Men, Dwarves and Elves would call them.

How hasty you are in trying to stoke up the village’s prejudices against us Orckind, Glirdan. As the enlightened bird-catcher has pointed out, we make easy targets. But we are reformed Orcs, not the evil creatures of the olden tales. Many amongst you will know how useful I have proved myself in scaring the crows away from your crops. And so I hope to prove myself equally useful to the village in seeking out and destroying these Ducks of Udún.

I suppose it should not surprise me, coming from an overgrown twig such as yourself. But I wonder if there is some scheming behind your attempt to pick on the more vulnerable members of this village. I will be keeping an Orcish eye on you, Ent. ‘Tis oftentimes the case that those who arrive first at the scene turn out to be those who committed the grisly act.

And I don’t like the look of that idle Elf, mormegil. Quite apart from him being a filthy tark, he is unwilling to aid our village without payment of some kind. That smacks of selfishness and greed to me. But perhaps he has other motives for his reluctance to help out. Perhaps he would rather help the Duckish cause, either because he is one of them himself or because, being but a Goose, wants them to suck seed – er - succeed.

There is little point now in dwelling at length on the consequences of our inability to recognise the Gifteds (except, of course, the Hawk) following their deaths. Not until the Ducks kill again, at least. So, they (and especially the Owl) should act as they see fit with that knowledge in mind.

Originally Posted by Nogrod

What worries me in this situation, is that we stand a very high risk of losing all the dreams, with no way to convince ourselves, whose post are worth looking really closely.

That is something which I am sure has occurred to all of us (guilty and innocent alike), and one of which I am sure the Owl is only too aware. But I think we should leave the Owl to act as he or she thinks best. Discussing Owlish tactics amongst ourselves only risks exposing the Owl. In fact, Nogrod, I am wary of one who would suggest such a thing. I think it best that we concentrate on rooting out the Ducks.

Admittedly, unless the Ducks slip up, this first Day will most likely provide little enlightenment to us while we are living through it. But things that are said now may prove helpful to us in the future. Remember, the Wereducks will be trying to maintain a semblance of innocence on the surface. But, underneath the water, their nasty little legs will be paddling furiously. We need to try to spot the guilty activity below the surface. And to do that, we all need to keep talking, and thereby force the Ducks to keep quacking or else stand out like targets in a shooting gallery.

[The Saucepan Man]

Originally Posted by me

And I don’t like the look of that idle Elf, mormegil. Quite apart from him being a filthy tark, he is unwilling to aid our village without payment of some kind. That smacks of selfishness and greed to me. But perhaps he has other motives for his reluctance to help out.

Oops! Being an Orc of little brain, I see that I misread mormegil's post. He wants to pay someone to help him out. Well, my comments stand. That's just selfish. Why should he be in any better position just because he is rich? Perhaps he is trying to buy innocents onto his side and thereby use them for his evil ends. I still don't like him. Filthy tark!

[Kath]

Ah I see Nilp has arrived!

I have little time right now, I've just seen a rainbow and must go catch it! But I will return later to see what's been going on.

[Mithalwen]

Just checking in here - I don't expect to be able to do much more than read what others have posted. As well as the problems of not knowing about the gifteds, we have the added dynamic of the hawk and nightingale being in league as well ... just something to bear in mind.

I wouldn't suspect someone automatically for raising issues and options. On the first day it is a darned sight more useful than a lot of "oh woe is me Diamond is dead/ ooh I have had a hard morning knocking the saggar-makers bottoms" ...

However some peoples' professions just demand a few cheap and pointless jibes... but I shall resist for now....

[Mithalwen]

A few statistics:

12/17 have at least checked in thought there has been a vote. Waiting to hear from Roa, Lote22, JennyH, Elu Ancalime and Sleepy but allowing for timezones, school/ work ... no real significance there.

There are 7 non-ordos. So at least 2 must have posted already, statistically 4 is more likely... again that doesn't get us much further ..... Hope to be more helpful later....

[Sleepy Ranger]

I sense a disturbance in the force...

H'llo ladies and gentlemen, you all know me as Sleepy Ranger, I've never been anything significant in your community seeing how I've always stuck to myself but now... aye, now it seems you need all the help you can get and I'm here to offer all that I can.

Now then, as I state in all games my Day 1 vote will be random unless the seer decides to reveal themself today or unless its a very convincing case against someone. Now then, its always fun to see people take random jabs at occupations but I'm totally against using it as the basis of an arguement, Day 1 or whatever. If somebody votes because of occupation its no better (or worse) than a random vote, which ironically I have nothing against...

I'll check in later today, for now there are some matters that require my immediate attention. G'day!

[The Saucepan Man]

Originally Posted by The Saggar Maker's Bottom Knocker

I wouldn't suspect someone automatically for raising issues and options.

Eurggh! Another nasty Elf. But I agree with you - provided that it doesn't risk exposing any (helpful) Gifteds. That's the reason I don't like talk of Owlish strategies. It just seems unnecessarily risky (or fiendishly calculated).

Originally Posted by Mithalwen

As well as the problems of not knowing about the gifteds, we have the added dynamic of the hawk and nightingale being in league as well ... just something to bear in mind.

That's a strange way of putting it. Referring to them being "in league" makes it sound slightly sinister, whereas this is very much to our advantage. Still, I s'pose a Duck would have chosen her words more carefully ...

Originally Posted by Cailín

I shall definitely not vote Dancing Spawn -even though she is a nasty smelly orc- or Anguirel toDay, since they will probably be attacked toNight anyway.

That jumped out at me too. I would have thought that there are a number who could be in danger tonight, purely on the basis of reputation. Why pick on those two? Are you trying to set them up for a fall?

I also think Nilp's self-vote to be extremely unhelpful. It tallies with his regular suicidal approach, and so tells us nothing. And he knows by now that few are likely to vote for him for it, precisely because it is his standard behaviour. Unhelpful, unenlightening and, in my view, decidedly suspicious. As matters stand, I may just vote for him, precisely because of that.

[Anguirel]

Originally Posted by The Saucepan Man

I also think Nilp's self-vote to be extremely unhelpful. It tallies with his regular suicidal approach, and so tells us nothing. And he knows by now that few are likely to vote for him for it, precisely because it is his standard behaviour. Unhelpful, unenlightening and, in my view, decidedly suspicious. As matters stand, I may just vote for him, precisely because of that.

I disagree, as a matter of fact. Were you to vote for him, Master Scarecrow, that would be traditional...and the traditional outcome would be his innocence. I think Nilp probably has too much respect for his customs to perjure them...

I tell you what I'd like at some stage, when we've all talked a bit more. One of those nice, gently ironic, summary of everything posted so far posts by Lady Spawnowen (or is it Ghashspawnthrurg?) They have a rather stabilising effect, like a drink of water. Even when she's guilty...

So far my suspicions have tallied somewhat with those of the Saucepan Man-alarm at Cailin's doom-mongering coupled with a feeling morm might be a Goose. But this in itself makes me suspect Saucie-not, of course, because he's an Orc, but because us "thinking alike" seems far too neat. I have therefore studied his contributions in some detail...and think they're quite sensible. Argh.

Like Mithalwen, I don't tend to see baneful intent behind Nogrod's suggestion that we brainstorm about the Owl position. But I'm also starting to think that perhaps the Owl had better work it out for itself after all.

[Nogrod]

Originally Posted by The Saucepan Man

But I think we should leave the Owl to act as he or she thinks best. Discussing Owlish tactics amongst ourselves only risks exposing the Owl. In fact, Nogrod, I am wary of one who would suggest such a thing. I think it best that we concentrate on rooting out the Ducks.

Eurggh! Another nasty Elf. But I agree with you - provided that it doesn't risk exposing any (helpful) Gifteds. That's the reason I don't like talk of Owlish strategies. It just seems unnecessarily risky (or fiendishly calculated).

I can't see how discussing the owl tactics would endanger the Owl? S/he doesn't have to partake in an open discussion - s/he can just lay back and think about the things we say to help to make her/his mind. As I said earlier, this is just so different situation, as we will not have a track-record to trail after, if s/he dies. That's why I thought we could help the Owl by trying our best. Were I an Owl, I would appreciate the help (I was a seer in my first ever game, and boy was I lost! - and with this new rule, it's not obvious, that the traditional tactics apply).

And making arguments have this nice quality, that they can be shared - so no wolfy-orcsy-ducky scheming in there - as everyone can see a good point and a bad point... The duckies might want to twist good arguments by downplaying their worth, by attacking them rhetorically, or whatever. But even a duck can't twist 2+2 to 17,453...

So Saucepanman: your posts just quoted up above, put you in the head of my suspicion list to begin with...

1) the counter-argument is just a bad one (and as I have the impression of you being an intelligent person - that just calls to see foul-play in it).

2) Your second point: "In fact, Nogrod, I am wary of one who would suggest such a thing" could be seen as a rhetorical turn-around, trying deliberately to twist us out from helping the Owl, to loosely thrown out and about suspicions about other people (& trying to make yourself look like considerate person).

3) And then it is followed by this: "I think it best that we concentrate on rooting out the Ducks"! We all know the first day cluelesness before any real discussions: so what is this? Just rhetorics without any substance? At least it's not a call to have any discussion, that would reveal anyone's attitudes - or would make them slip anything.

This is just, what I would like all of us to be wary of! Sensible points put down or twisted, or set aside, with no real arguments, but leaning on other grounds like rhetorics, charisma, earlier renown, whatever...

Spm. I know, that a good and thinking villager might be doing something like the thing you are doing - opening some, even shallowly grounded - suspicions by casting his eye anywhere to find something doubtful on the first day. It's always better to have a reason for one's vote, even in the first day. You should see, that I'm doing exactly the same thing here.

EDIT: X-posted with Ang

[Roa_Aoife]

*BAM!* *POW!* Holy Wereducks! A fowl plot is clearly afoot. Upon webbed feet, no less. What sinister mind could have spawned this scheme? Who among us would so boldly fly in the face of justice? I shall bend all of my mental powers to discerning this riddle. Hopefully my military experience will aid me in this quest.

Okay, I've had my fun. (For those of you who don't know, that was referencing the original Batman, which is far more comical than the current.) Well, several things I'd like to point out.

1. We have a lot of people saying "Concentrate on finding the Ducks!" *coughSPMcough* with out actually suggesting how. Highly suspicious.

2. I actually understand not wanting to vote for certain people on Day 1. There are certain people in the village who can be a great help when they are innocent, and I certainly don't want them gone so quickly.

3. I find Nilp's self-vote annoying. Does he actually become more helpful if he survives Day 1? If so, leave him. If not, get rid of him. (This goes back to point 2.)

4. As a highly intelligent Jenny once said (even if she was a WereOrc), "Maybe the reason we can never find anything on Day 1 is because we all just sit around complaining about Day 1." (Maybe slightly off, but that was the gist of it.)

Based on this, I have moved Nogrod and SPM to the top of my list. As well as Mith- she's not being her usually thoughful self.

[The Saucepan Man]

Grrr! I should be in the fields scaring off birds. But there are some (rather hastily made) points which need answering.

Originally Posted by Anguirel

Were you to vote for him, Master Scarecrow, that would be traditional...and the traditional outcome would be his innocence.

But that could be precisely what he wants us to think. The fact is that his self-vote does not give anything away, as it is what we would expect from him. It’s unhelpful, even in future days when Day 1 ramblings might reveal more. That’s why I am suspicious of him.

Originally Posted by Nogrod

I can't see how discussing the owl tactics would endanger the Owl? S/he doesn't have to partake in an open discussion - s/he can just lay back and think about the things we say to help to make her/his mind.

It provokes the Owl into having to think how he or she should react to the discussion. And that in itself could lead to something being said which an observant Duck might pick up on. I am not saying that it will inevitably endanger the Owl. But it carries that risk. I would rather trust the Owl to make his or her own decisions.

Originally Posted by Nogrod

And then it is followed by this: "I think it best that we concentrate on rooting out the Ducks"! We all know the first day cluelesness before any real discussions: so what is this? Just rhetorics without any substance?

Originally Posted by Roa_Aoife

We have a lot of people saying "Concentrate on finding the Ducks!" *coughSPMcough* with out actually suggesting how. Highly suspicious.

My main suggestion, for now, is that we all keep talking, making accusations and outlining suspicions. I have no wonderful strategy to put forward. I prefer to play things by ear and see what develops, particularly on Day 1. Our discussions today may be ill-informed, and accusations and suspicions will no doubt go awry. But accusations and suspicions force the Ducks to think, to act and react. And so these discussions may prove useful in days to come. I don’t hold with the oft-expressed dislike of Day 1’s. I find them rather exhilarating.

For my own part, I have outlined my current suspicions, based on what has been said so far. I stand by them, and you must judge me on them as you see fit. I will certainly be judging you all on the same basis – and will vote accordingly. Quite possibly wrongly, given the limited information available, but most certainly not randomly.

I'm off to the fields now for a few hours. I'll be back later to see what has transpired.

[Anguirel]

Originally Posted by The Saucepan Man

My main suggestion, for now, is that we all keep talking, making accusations and outlining suspicions. I have no wonderful strategy to put forward. I prefer to play things by ear and see what develops, particularly on Day 1. Our discussions today may be ill-informed, and accusations and suspicions will no doubt go awry. But accusations and suspicions force the Ducks to think, to act and react. And so these discussions may prove useful in days to come. I don’t hold with the oft-expressed dislike of Day 1’s. I find them rather exhilarating.

For my own part, I have outlined my current suspicions, based on what has been said so far. I stand by them, and you must judge me on them as you see fit. I will certainly be judging you all on the same basis – and will vote accordingly. Quite possibly wrongly, given the limited information available, but most certainly not randomly.

Playing Morgoth's Advocate here somewhat, as I pretty much agree with you...again...accusations and suspicions may force the Ducks to think, to act and react, but they also are the only ones with knowledge and can chase us up many a gum-tree. They are therefore...well, exhilirating...to a Duck. Though they can admittedly put them on the defensive, it won't be a very pronounced defensive, as no one will admit to knowing anything solid.

On the other hand, there's very little else we can do. I think I narrowly prefer Saucie's "find some flimsy reasoning" basis to Sleepy's "random" basis. Random votes are almost always not random anyway...

I myself often surrender to the strong temptation to thrw analysis to the wind and spend the first day avenging some absurdly petty grudge...

Originally Posted by Roa

Based on this, I have moved Nogrod and SPM to the top of my list. As well as Mith- she's not being her usually thoughful self.

Nogrod and SPM? What do they have in common, based on your reasoning above? I don't quite see how Nogrod makes it.

And I think perhaps we should give Mith a chance. The statistical stuff was useful for a short post, if a bit disturbingly dispassionate, I suppose. She'll be back with Enlightenment.

[Nogrod]

Ok.

The thing troubling me is, that the normally wise seer-tactics may not be good Owl tactics. I'm sure the Owl has gotten that. I don't think s/he is a dummy. But even the wise need assistance - and I'm not saying, I'm the one to assist the wise - but we all together.

See Lmp's game-planning in the TiG -thread. He's clearly an intelligent man - and has tested his game beforehand, but still there seem to be problems which he will have to revise. I myself like to go on coming up with theories, on how to protect the village the best way, and have handed them out for everyone to scrutinize. That way we have been able to abandon them, when they are faulty, or stick to them, when they are fine. I know that has brought about much controvesy, but that's the price one has to pay for playing to the village. So even as I totally trust our Owl to make her/his own decisions, we might try to help her/him. But I can't do it alone... Others need to join.

But I'll start, as no-one else seems ready to play openly (I know this is hard).

So. No tracks left after death.

What does this mean? Normal tactics (hanker down, gather information and reveal them when you have enough - and back yourself up by leaving hints behind you to be recollected after your death & general revealment of being the seer) might not be the best code of conduct here, as every day passing makes it more probable, that an untimely death comes to visit, and all has been in vain? All dreams totally lost?

Well that's my first question: is there any reasonable way for the shaman to work confidently for a longer period? In a normal game there is. But now any hinting might call the ducks around at night, and we rest would be left uniformed. Maybe it would be good, if we all ordos would go on hinting of our Owlish knowledge - just to confuse the ducks? I'm not sure about this one. In the bad instance, it would just leave us with even more confusion - if the ducks get the Owl untimely. But otherwise, it might give our Owl more time. So self-sacrifying villagers needed? I could personally go for this... if you others don't bring good cases against it.

My second question: the Owl might have a dream of a wolf. What to do? In a normal game - if the situation is not desperate - the seer could just go on unnoticed (leaving a track). But now? Is it wise to possibly die with a knowledge of one duck? This I found a hounting question. Can you others see the advantages or disadvantages of this situation better than me? There might be some reasons to reveal oneself after one duck-dream. But then, I see, that at least myself, I would be somewhat hesitant, wanting to go on with the game and hoping for the best... Or do we have ways to make those dreams known? I understand, these should not be discussed here, as there we might come to the area Spm was worried about - and I am too. But just saying, there is, would help the Owl, and make her/him think more clearly. And before you just say: that must be a duck, trying to make our Owl reveal her/himself prematurely, just think about the logic of this game! The Owl is not a seer...

EDIT: X-posted with Spm and Ang

[Roa_Aoife]

Originally Posted by Ang

Nogrod and SPM? What do they have in common, based on your reasoning above? I don't quite see how Nogrod makes it.

Nogrod also keeps urging for startegies without really coming up with any viable ones (just his standard discussion of the gifted.)For all his talk, he's behaving in a very similar way to SPM, though they speak differently.

EDIT: Cross posted with Nogrod

[mormegil]

I tried to be patient with you orc but you push me to far.

First, elves are not Tarks .

Second, I pay people because I can and I use my own mind for high and mighty matters, not the slaying of some ducks.

Now I've been thinking and while generally I'm not a fan of owl (seer) talk I think I have something to add preemptively before the goose, if he/she is intelligent will do. I see no harm in stating this though there are some that think ill of me.

Let's think about this shall we:

1. When dead the roles will not be revealed, this includes goose and owl.
2. If the owl proclaims him/herself we will not know of the truth unless we try his/her words.
3. The goose wants to help the Ducks
4. What better way to help than flush out the owl early on?

A strategem I would use, if I were the goose, would be to declare myself the owl on day 3, maybe day 2, and hope that the real owl declares themself. So if you are the real owl and an imposter declares themself, use your discretion.

How is that SpM and Ang? Satisfy you?

Now to get this out of the way, hopefully, I suspect both Kath and SpM of Duckery and say they should hang.

[Nogrod]

Originally Posted by The Saucepan Man

My main suggestion, for now, is that we all keep talking, making accusations and outlining suspicions. I have no wonderful strategy to put forward. I prefer to play things by ear and see what develops, particularly on Day 1. Our discussions today may be ill-informed, and accusations and suspicions will no doubt go awry. But accusations and suspicions force the Ducks to think, to act and react. And so these discussions may prove useful in days to come. I don’t hold with the oft-expressed dislike of Day 1’s. I find them rather exhilarating.

With this I truly agree! Day1 is a day as any other (well, not quite as any other), but a day when we have a chance to either succeed or fail... We need people around, trying to do something... and answering something. That's one of the reasons I have been quite fast to go for the silent-one's or random-voters on the day1. I think they disrepute the game, and the playing of it...

If everyone just declared a random vote, with one post on the first day, what would we have on the day2? Not much, but random accusations based on ill-informed hunches of those who had voted for an innocent to death... That's the kind of game the ducks would like to play. But we must fight back!

Why to give the day1 to the werecreatures for free, just hiding our own backs?

[Nogrod]

Originally Posted by mormegil

Let's think about this shall we:

1. When dead the roles will not be revealed, this includes goose and owl.
2. If the owl proclaims him/herself we will not know of the truth unless we try his/her words.
3. The goose wants to help the Ducks
4. What better way to help than flush out the owl early on?

A strategem I would use, if I were the goose, would be to declare myself the owl on day 3, maybe day 2, and hope that the real owl declares themself. So if you are the real owl and an imposter declares themself, use your discretion.

Thanks Morm! This is just what I want us to do! I hadn't even come to think about the goose at this point of the game (haven't ever been in a game with that kind of cobbler-like person) - I could think of a duck doing this, but the goose element will be another distress for us here. So even more posture and mayhem. Needs to be considered by the Owl.

If we all have even one good (or just plausible) idea, then the Owl will have much to think about - and we can communally drop the bad ones - to help her/him to judge the situation in the best way possible.

[Roa_Aoife]

Nogrod- think of it this way. We won't know when the Owl dies, but niether will the Ducks, unless s/he chooses to reveal him/herself. This makes the game quite difficult for them. Rather than depend on dreams, (which, even when we find out who the seer is after death, can still be very misleading) why not depend on reasoned cases? We can all make those. You seem a little nervous this game. Something wrong?

Originally Posted by Nogrod

Maybe it would be good, if we all ordos would go on hinting of our Owlish knowledge - just to confuse the ducks? I'm not sure about this one. In the bad instance, it would just leave us with even more confusion - if the ducks get the Owl untimely.

You do realize that stating your intent to do this completely nulifies this plan, since the Ducks can now simply look at who isn't hinting their Owlishness?

There is no reason for the Owl to not follow normal tactics because no one will know who they are when they die. We won't knw if dreams have been lost, niether will the ducks. This allows us to operate in confidence, while they must operate in paranoia. (Much like you seem to be showing.) Obviously is the Owl is about to be lynched s/he should come forward, but beyond that, I should think not. Now, let's leave the Owl alone and focus on Duck Hunting. (Awesome Old-school game....)

I accept SPM's answer... for now. However he is far too dangerous to not be looked at carefully. Especially if he is still alive tomorrow.

Something seems distinctly off about Nogrod. He's looking more and more suspicious to me now.

EDIT: Cross posted with last three

[Roa_Aoife]

Originally Posted by morm

Now to get this out of the way, hopefully, I suspect both Kath and SpM of Duckery and say they should hang.

Why? What are your reasons? Is this a nonsense accusation or a serious one?

[Roa_Aoife]

Just as a note: We are still waiting to hear from

Lote22
JennyHallu
Elu Ancalime

They still have plenty of time, though.

[Kath]

Ah that'll be a random one Roa. morm and I traditionally suspect each other, and we both suspect SPM. Just the way we do things!

[Nogrod]

[QUOTE]

Originally Posted by Roa_Aoife

Nogrod- think of it this way. We won't know when the Owl dies, but niether will the Ducks, unless s/he chooses to reveal him/herself. This makes the game quite difficult for them. Rather than depend on dreams, (which, even when we find out who the seer is after death, can still be very misleading) why not depend on reasoned cases? We can all make those. You seem a little nervous this game. Something wrong?

C'mon... I will still be the one to call for reasoned arguments and cases. You seem not to have read what I have written - or then you are twisting my words. I wouldn't trust you in either of the cases (three games together, twice you have been a were-something)

And I have just been worried. The dreams have been quite instrumental in all the victories the villages have had - and that's 4/5 - as I have played the game (forgetting those "outside the Downs" -hints - that truly spoil the game - even if we win with them). I appreciate your contribution to the discussion - when you show (or try to show) me wrong. That's helpful for all of us. But I might like to ask, what makes you so jumpy to go on after others during the first day? Not kind of your way of playing?

And about everyone hinting something Owlishly...

You do realize that stating your intent to do this completely nulifies this plan, since the Ducks can now simply look at who isn't hinting their Owlishness?

You can't be that simple? Of course the Owl would not be the only one staying silent! Or maybe s/he would go on with the conversation? You can't be serious with that remark? You are trying to clear the waters here, where I deliberately wanted to muddy them... hmm... But happily, after this, all will be just one confusion to the ducks.

There is no reason for the Owl to not follow normal tactics because no one will know who they are when they die. We won't knw if dreams have been lost, niether will the ducks. This allows us to operate in confidence, while they must operate in paranoia. (Much like you seem to be showing.) Obviously is the Owl is about to be lynched s/he should come forward, but beyond that, I should think not.

I'm just not believing this... You can't be a were-creature again!

I would like to hear, why should the Owl play by the standard modus operandi in a game when the dynamics are so different, where after her/his death everything might be down the drain? How is it, that we can "operate" in confidence, and that the ducks will be paranoid?

I see you quick to rebutt ideas, but how about making some "reasoned cases" that you so much seemed to rever earlier in your post?

But anyhow. Good to see you drawn into the discussion with some stakes. Brave of you. I hope you others dare to take that move too. Otherwise we just give this day to the ducks for free.

[Anguirel]

Lord. Things are hotting up.

I do take issue with Roa on one minor point-

Originally Posted by Roa

I accept SPM's answer... for now. However he is far too dangerous to not be looked at carefully. Especially if he is still alive tomorrow.

This is seriously harsh on the unfortunate Orc. If he fails to die by duck soon, you will suspect him, you say, for that very reason. What if the ducks leave him to stew? The Saucepan Man is a human, er, Orc, and gets things wrong like the rest of us.

I tell you wereducks of true skill do not slay victims because of who they are, but because of what they do.

This Nogrod/Roa spat seems sudden and almost amusing, considering their original Unity against the Forces of Saucie. I almost feel an accusation of orchestration coming on...

[Roa_Aoife]

Ah that'll be a random one Roa. morm and I traditionally suspect each other, and we both suspect SPM. Just the way we do things!

Thanks for clearing that up Kath.

Originally Posted by Nogrod

C'mon... I will still be the one to call for reasoned arguments and cases.

I never said you weren't- who's twisting words now? Sure, you call for reasoned arguments and cases about your strategy, but not for catching ducks, which is what I was talking about.

Originally Posted by Nogrod

I wouldn't trust you in either of the cases (three games together, twice you have been a were-something)

Actually, 4 times we have played together- twice I was the wolf, onceI was the seer, and once I was an ordo. Once you were were a seer, and all other times you were an ordo.

Originally Posted by Nogrod

And I have just been worried. The dreams have been quite instrumental in all the victories the villages have had - and that's 4/5 - as I have played the game

I don't think those dreams were as instrumental in all games as you think they were. My first village lost our seer on the second night, and we went on to win the game. And, often times, the dreams can be twisted by the therianthropes. We are all intelligent players here, capable of finding the Ducks through our own analysis if need be. While the dreams are infinitely helpful, we can wim with out them.

You can't be that simple? Of course the Owl would not be the only one staying silent! Or maybe s/he would go on with the conversation? You can't be serious with that remark? You are trying to clear the waters here, where I deliberately wanted to muddy them... hmm... But happily, after this, all will be just one confusion to the ducks.

I want the waters to be clear so we can spot a Duck. What's to prevent the Ducks from partaking in this? Nothing. And the goose? Eru help us. Not only that, but continual hinting if the owl is involved could point quite obviously to who the Owl is. The Ducks know who's who, so they'll know which of us is on the ball. (And no, I'm not suggesting that you meant we should all come out saying we're the Owl and we know who's innocent. But if we all hint at Owlishness, and accuse/exonerate certain people, the Ducks will know which of us are on to something, and which of us are just full of hot air.)

Originally Posted by Nogrod

I would like to hear, why should the Owl play by the standard modus operandi in a game when the dynamics are so different, where after her/his death everything might be down the drain? How is it, that we can "operate" in confidence, and that the ducks will be paranoid?

Because that's always the case. After the seer's death in a normal game, there is no garruntee the villagers will interpret their posts properly. Everything might always go down the drain. But we can rely on reasoning, where as the Ducks will never know if they're safe or about to be found out. Hinestly, you put far too much stock in dreams.

Originally Posted by Nogrod

I see you quick to rebutt ideas, but how about making some "reasoned cases" that you so much seemed to rever earlier in your post?

I am building reasoned cases. I don't have much to go on yet, but I am working on cases. Don't you worry about that. (Unless you're a Duck, in which case, go ahead and worry.)

Edit: Cross posted with Ang

[Roa_Aoife]

This is seriously harsh on the unfortunate Orc. If he fails to die by duck soon, you will suspect him, you say, for that very reason. What if the ducks leave him to stew? The Saucepan Man is a human, er, Orc, and gets things wrong like the rest of us.

I wouldn't hang him on that alone, Ang. I've pulled the same stunt before (and it almost worked!) but I know better than to lynch someone simply because they are alive. I won't be letting him out of my sight though. (I never trust anyone in a village untill they are proven innocent.)

This Nogrod/Roa spat seems sudden and almost amusing, considering their original Unity against the Forces of Saucie. I almost feel an accusation of orchestration coming on...

Well, Nogrod is doomed to distrust me, given our history together. Frankly, it would be weird if he did. (It's never really worked out for him before.) What can I say? We're both very agressive, and we both disagree often. Someday, we'll be on the same team and know it, and then we shall be quite the Dynamic Duo, fearsome to our opponents. Untill that time, we're going to argue a lot.