Samwise the Strong

[deal_with_it]

What if after Bilbo's party Frodo refuses the Ring or to leave the Shire. So hearing Sam outside (and perhaps sensing his strong will) Gandalf yanks the trmbling gardner in thru the window and with Frodo looking on, proceeds to the tale of the Ringto a gape mouthed Sam.

Sam, eyes aglow about so much Elfish talk, agrees to do it but is frightfully scared. Gandalf smiles showing his liking of the hobbit and assures him he will not be alone in this. Frodo fearing for his friend, volunteers to help Sam on the journey, much to Sam's relief. "Oh no, Mr Frodo, sir. You needn't go", he says (although he really wants Frodo to go along)

Frodo won't hear it and confirms with Gandalf that its ok. The story is now with Sam as the main Ringbearer. How does this play out? Is Sam strong enough? What is Bilbo's reaction when he finds out?

The story will probly play out very much the same, however with more of Sam's simple, countryboy type charm or cluelessness. Remember, he's chosen for his will power, not his brain power.

This history could possibly effect his later life concerning Rosie and is kids and the Book od Redmarch. Does he pass over Sea with Gandalf, like Frodo did or does he wait and live a simple life with his family first?

[Morsul the Dark]

Well its impossible to say whether frodo truseted gollum because of the ring or trusted him because he wanted too if the latter is true than sam(seeing he distrusted gollum on his own accord) would still distrust him. Their are just to different of personalities to look down the line it would be in fact the butterfly effect

[deal_with_it]

I hadn't considered how Gollum would be dealt with. Sam didn't like him. Period. Since Sam isn't answerable to Frodo in this scenerio, he would send Gollum away most likely and attempt to get thru Mordor the best he could without Gollum's help.

At best he'd reluctantly allow Gollum's assistance if Frodo prodded him enough.

[Iris Alantiel]

Interesting concept. Nothing like this ever occurred to me. It really gets to the heart of a lot of questions about the text, like exactly what the properties of the Ring are, how far it can affect characters, and what makes a character immune or susceptible to its influence.

If it can be said that hobbits are generally less susceptible to the Ring's influence than other races of Middle Earth (which I think is fair, since Bilbo unwittingly carried it for decades without becoming particularly corrupt and Frodo made it all the way to Mount Doom without giving in), then theoretically Sam would be just as capable of bearing the Ring as Frodo. However, Frodo was willing to give Gollum the benefit of the doubt, and Sam would almost certainly not have done so: he would have either killed Gollum or sent him away.

So what would have happened when Sam's strength faltered at the Crack of Doom? You might argue that Sam wouldn't do so, but I don't think Sam is any stronger than Frodo in that sense - his key characteristic is his loyalty, and he derives strength primarily from that. I suppose it's possible that he could use his love for and loyalty to Frodo, Rosie, and the Shire to summon the strength to cast the Ring away, which might have worked . . . but it's hard to say without knowing exactly the extent to which the Ring has power over one's thinking.

Assuming the Ring would take power over him, I suppose the question returns to Frodo - what would he have done? Would he have been able to fight Sam for the Ring (keeping in mind that he lacked Gollum's desperate drive for it, since in this version, he was never a ring-bearer)? If he did fight Sam, who would win? I think it's virtually impossible to say one way or another; it could go either way.

If we assume again that the Ring was destroyed one way or another, though, I'm not sure Sam would have needed to pass into the West with Gandalf and the elves the way Frodo did. It's difficult to say for sure, but I like to think that he would have found enough peace and solace in his life with Rosie, his children, and his restoration of the Shire that he would be able to move past his horrible experiences as the Ring-bearer. It seems to me that, in his Shire-life independent of the Quest, Sam has more of a sense of purpose than Frodo.

[deal_with_it]

Originally Posted by Iris Alantiel

Interesting concept. Nothing like this ever occurred to me. It really gets to the heart of a lot of questions about the text, like exactly what the properties of the Ring are, how far it can affect characters, and what makes a character immune or susceptible to its influence.

If it can be said that hobbits are generally less susceptible to the Ring's influence than other races of Middle Earth (which I think is fair, since Bilbo unwittingly carried it for decades without becoming particularly corrupt and Frodo made it all the way to Mount Doom without giving in), then theoretically Sam would be just as capable of bearing the Ring as Frodo. However, Frodo was willing to give Gollum the benefit of the doubt, and Sam would almost certainly not have done so: he would have either killed Gollum or sent him away.

So what would have happened when Sam's strength faltered at the Crack of Doom? You might argue that Sam wouldn't do so, but I don't think Sam is any stronger than Frodo in that sense - his key characteristic is his loyalty, and he derives strength primarily from that. I suppose it's possible that he could use his love for and loyalty to Frodo, Rosie, and the Shire to summon the strength to cast the Ring away, which might have worked . . . but it's hard to say without knowing exactly the extent to which the Ring has power over one's thinking.

Assuming the Ring would take power over him, I suppose the question returns to Frodo - what would he have done? Would he have been able to fight Sam for the Ring (keeping in mind that he lacked Gollum's desperate drive for it, since in this version, he was never a ring-bearer)? If he did fight Sam, who would win? I think it's virtually impossible to say one way or another; it could go either way.

If we assume again that the Ring was destroyed one way or another, though, I'm not sure Sam would have needed to pass into the West with Gandalf and the elves the way Frodo did. It's difficult to say for sure, but I like to think that he would have found enough peace and solace in his life with Rosie, his children, and his restoration of the Shire that he would be able to move past his horrible experiences as the Ring-bearer. It seems to me that, in his Shire-life independent of the Quest, Sam has more of a sense of purpose than Frodo.

Well I think if sent away by Sam, Gollum (in his drive for the Ring) would continue to follow the hobbits and repeat the scene where he attempts to save the Ring from destruction. He'd fight Sam this time, possibly resulting in the same conclusion.

If he's killed outright somehow, either when they meet or by Faramir's men later, then your scenario of Frodo attempting to force the issue with Sam would come into play.

As far as going West, I think he'd live his life with his family in the Shire. When/if he outlived his children and friends, he'd might choose to leave for the West, but the only reason would be to see his old friends again perhaps. You're right. He's a bit of a home-body. He'd probably just enjoy puttering around his "bit of garden" in the Shire to his dying days.

Interesting.

[The Saucepan Man]

Originally Posted by Iris Alantiel

However, Frodo was willing to give Gollum the benefit of the doubt, and Sam would almost certainly not have done so: he would have either killed Gollum or sent him away.

There seems to be a general consensus that Sam as Ringbearer would have been less sympathetic towards Gollum than Frodo was. But surely at least part of Frodo's sympathy towards Gollum comes from his own association with the Ring and therefore his insight into how it affected Gollum. Frodo is also influenced by Gandalf's words concerning mercy, which Sam would have had the benefit of, had he been the Ringbearer from the outset.

As Ringbearer, Sam would also have been less concerned with protecting Frodo, since it would not have been his primary role. It is as Ringbearer Frodo's companion and "protector" that Sam is mistrustful of Gollum.

So I think that it is at least arguable that Sam as Ringbearer would have been as sympathetic towards Gollum as Frodo was and that he would have shown the same mercy.

[Tuor in Gondolin]

Sam as not very bright seems to be inaccurate. After all,
Mr. Bilbo taught him his letters, he had a good memory
for tales and songs, and an inquisitive mind.

A problem (and interesting variant) with Sam as ringbearer
is an inversion of the (at least initially) class structure of
Sam as Mr. Frodo's servant (and in Tolkien's mind Frodo's
batman).

But as to Samwise as ringbearer, a good case can be made that he
was more suitable, especially in his common sense and realization of
his limits (Samwise the greatest gardener in the world--- no way!).
He would of course have eventually failed to destroy the ring
(see Letters). But here Frodo might have been more perceptive
and helped dispose of it. I don't think Sam would have killed
Gollum, partially due to Frodo's intervention.

[Eonwe]

I'm not sure if Sam as Ring Bearer would work. Like Iris said, Sam gets his stength from his love for and loyalty to Frodo. If he were suddenly thrust into the roll of leader in relationship that had for so long be the exact opposite, I don't think he would have reacted well. Sam is not a good leader, but an excellent follower. Once he has captured the requirements of the quest, he will hold on no matter what. But to actaully do the leading is, I think, beyond him.

Maybe he would have been better at withstanding the allure of the Ring, but that is debatable. His loyalty to Frodo is what motivates him to fight off the temptation. But if he were leader, he would not have that bulwark to fall back on.

So I don't think it would work so good.