Hope and Hopelessness

[Estelyn Telcontar]

One of the major themes of The Lord of the Rings is ‚hope’. When I last reread the book, I realized how centrally important it is to the whole story. I took notice of its usage, even counting it; including its variations ‘hopeful’, ‘hopefully’, ‘hopeless’, ‘unhopeful’ and the Elvish ‘estel’ (Appendix A, Tale of Aragorn and Arwen), the word is used over 300 times throughout the book. Sometimes it is the conventional “I hope” type of usage, but very often the word is of utmost significance to a passage.

I would like to show some examples that impress me deeply, beginning with the Tale of Aragorn and Arwen, Appendix A (V):

Aragorn’s grandmother encourages the marriage of his parents despite the youth of Gilraen with the words

If these two wed now, hope may be born for our people, but if they delay, it will not come while this age lasts.

This prophecy points to Aragorn as personified hope! How fitting that he was called Estel, that is “Hope” while growing up in the house of Elrond.

When he first met Arwen, it is said:

He sang, for he was full of hope…

During the years of his labour against Sauron he is described:

His face was sad and stern because of the doom that was laid on him, and yet hope dwelt ever in the depths of his heart, from which mirth would arise at times like a spring from the rock.

Arwen encourages him when he cannot see the end of the Shadow, so that he says:

Yet with your hope I will hope.

Though Elrond says that

years will come when hope will fade

Arwen supports Aragorn in his efforts:

From afar she watched over him in thought; and in hope she made for him a great and kingly standard.

When she sends him the banner, it is with the message:

Either our hope cometh, or all hope’s end.

Obviously, hope is a central element in their relationship.

Aragorn’s mother Gilraen loses hope and chooses to die with the words

Ónen i-Estel Edain, ú-chebin estel anim.
I gave Hope to the Dúnedain, I have kept no hope for myself.

Here again, Aragorn is Hope personified. The defeat of Sauron in the War of the Ring is described thus:

Hope beyond hope was fulfilled.
The Third Age ended thus in victory and hope.

Why did I begin with the end, the tale that isn’t in the main story? Partly because in it, ‘hope’ has become a person, Aragorn, concrete and tangible, an almost Messianic incarnation. But it is for personal reasons as well: When I chose my nickname to register here at the beginning of this year, it was because I like this story and admire Aragorn as a wonderful character, but also because of the meaning of the word ‘Estel’. Choosing ‘hope’ as a name while feeling hopeless was a conscious decision. Although I didn’t know it at that time, this was to become my personal theme for the year.

There are many more passages in the book in which ‘hope’ is important: Éowyn’s hopelessness, leading to her wish to die; Sam’s simple and practical hope, enough for two when Frodo loses all hope – but this monologue is quite long enough already! I hope you will share your thoughts on ‘hope’ in LotR with me.

[ November 04, 2002: Message edited by: Estelyn Telcontar ]

[Sapphire_Flame]

Very deep thoughts here. Hope really does seem to be a major driving force in the Books, as shown by the examples that you gave. It does seem like Tolkien is really trying to drive the point home that hope is really what can keep people going through tough times. And he also shows what a lack of hope can do (i.e.: Eowyn, Frodo), and how others can support us in our, er, more vulnerable times (Sam helping Frodo in Mordor). Those are just my thoughts. [img]smilies/biggrin.gif[/img]

[Keneldil the Polka-dot]

Hope does seem to be a central theme in JRRT's writings. Especially hope as it relates to faith (I mean this in a strictly "within the confines of ME" sense, not religeous).
- What else but hope, or faith, that someone would rescue him would keep Maedhros from simply giving up? I think this is an incredible example of hope in the face of hopelessness. The guy was hanging from a chain on Morgoth's front porch for pete's sake!
- I think hope/faith was one of the main reasons for Gandalf choosing Frodo to bear the Ring. Faith in Frodo's ability to resist the subversion of the Ring and carry it to Orodruin. I agree that Aragorn was a great figure of hope for his people, but I think Frodo was a figure of hope for all the people of ME, athough in hindsight.
- What kept some of the Firstborn in ME, especially in the latter parts of the Third Age? Perhaps hope that they might have a chance to redeem the wrongs they helped to perpetuate in ME. When I say that, I am thinking of Galadriel. She is singled out by Tolkien as the "only woman to stand that day tall and valiant among the contending princes, .. eager to be gone." The entire history of ME was set to a course by the flight of the Noldor, much of it regretted by the elves. No doubt many of them lived to see the times of the War of the Ring. It is a matter of debate what responsibilty the elves still bear by then. Hope born of guilt...a darker side than maybe you intended E.T. Sorry [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img]

[charly]

Totally agree with what you said. I think hope is one of the strongest feelings on earth, it´s what always keeps people going. And it´s not a far-away feeling, like true love or something. We hope everyday.Sometimes for small things: good weather, a B in that Mathtest. And sometimes we hope for greater things.But no matter what we hope for, or what we put our hopes in, it comes directly from our hearts. Gandalf chose Frodo because a distant feeling told him he could do it, not because his brain decided to do so.

And Aragorn, the central peace of hope in LotR, he loves the "nobelest and fairest lady that now walks on earth". I can imagine at first he wasn´t sure what Arwen felt. After all,she was of the Eldar and maybe would choose immortality.But later,after she´d made her decision, it was Arwen that hoped.And so on.

And then there´s of course Éowyn.Her whole life is made out of hopes and dreams. Hopes that someone will free her out of her golden cage, and dreams that she can be free, live her life the wayshe wants to live it. And then this man comes, Aragorn, ironically called "Hope" in elvish.To Eowyn it seems he can give all that. And for the first time she experiences that feeling, this love...

Eowyn, Aragorn, Arwen, Frodo, Sam, Gandalf and all those others. They hope, hope against reason that they might be saved. Hope is the Number one driving force not only in Middle earth, but also in our world.

[Carannillion]

I have been thinking a bit about the hopelessness thing. hope is a very central theme, but still, I find this lack of it to be also quite significant. Not in the same way though.

In my opinion, LotR is "burdened" with a strain of sorrow, sorrow emerging from a kind of hopelessness. This hopelessness is not a trait of one or more of the characters though. The hopelessness is the general mood of the book - perhaps representing the thoughts of Men. In the midst of all this we find hope, hope in the hearts of our "heroes", and those with the strongest hope - and faith in the victory of good - are "the least likely ones to have it..." Yet not so at all. The hobbits are in a way the representatives of children; not a care in the world, great wisdom in their own little way and a wonderful and secluded place to "play" in. Hope is found very naturally in them, although they are easily frightened. However they grow up fast, e.g. Sam who manages to control his fear - partly out of love - and "grow up" to become a hero, representing hope, in the middle of hopelessness. All seems lost, yet someone, somewhere... and so on.

[This is one of the things I am especially fond of about Tolkien. All his sub themes and threads and side stories are all knit together, sharing a greater theme each in their own way.]

This leads us back to another thread - the importance of Sam. Sam is absolutely vital to the victory of good. Again the least likely. Bilbo who found the ring, Frodo who took up the task and Sam who rescues Frodo. This hope is small in the middle of all the hopelessness, but it is strong.
-> Imagine reading the book with only the depressing mood and no hope..!

[ November 04, 2002: Message edited by: Carannillion ]

[Thenamir]

I find the absence of hope to be central to several characters.

Theoden is a good example. Until Gandalf came along he was weak and ineffective because Wormtongue had sowed the seeds of hopelessness and despair for so long. Once Gandalf came along (wearing Narya, the ring of fire, given to him by Cirdan that he might rekindle hope in the hearts of Middle Earth) Theoden regains hope and is transformed into the warrior king he was meant to be.

The hopelessness of Denethor is crushing in its depth, and ultimately fatal. Sauron himself, via the palantir, was able to create fear, uncertainty and doubt (the FUD factor) in Denethor to such a degree that even Gandalf could not save him.

This is a good area for further study. (Thenamir fires up his online copy of LOTR and starts some searches...)

[Gandalf_theGrey]

Hullo Thenamir,

* bows a greeting *

For some odd reason, Narya leapt to my mind as well [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img] ... More seriously, what fascinates me in this particular example is how the relevant passage from the Silmarillion does not actually contain the word "hope" ... yet both of us quickly picked up on the same imagery of the passage by implication.

Quoting Círdan,

"Take now this Ring, he said; for thy labours and thy cares will be heavy, but in all it will support thee and defend thee from weariness. For this is the Ring of Fire, and herewith, maybe, thous shalt rekindle hearts to the valour of old in a world that grows chill."
[The Silmarillion]

Or is there another quote I'm forgetting?

At your Service,

Gandalf the Grey

[HerenIstarion]

It seems to me JRRT used "hope" with 2 meanings. And Admir may have been lost by a man (elf, hobbit), but if Estel was still there, the actions were still proper.

from Finrod and Andreth

'Have ye then no hope?' said Finrod.
'What is hope?' she said. 'An expectation of good, which though uncertain has some foundation in what is known? Then we have none.'
'That is one thing that Men call "hope",' said Finrod. 'Amdir
we call it, "looking up". But there is another which is founded deeper. Estel we call it, that is "trust". It is not defeated by the ways of the world, for it does not come from experience, but from our nature and first being. If we are indeed the Eruhin, the Children of the One, then He will not suffer Himself to be deprived of His own, not by any Enemy,not even by ourselves.
This is th last foundation of Estel, which we keep even when we contemplate the End: of all His designs the issue must be for His Children's joy. Amdir you have not, you say. Does no Estel at all abide?'

and from more modern times, best illustration is Sam. There is no Admir with him any more -he knows there is no returning for him and his master anymore, but Estel (that is Trust in the Ultimate Good) gives him strengh to go on and conquer despair.

and edit:

How came Morgoth adn Sauron were evil?

the root of all evil = pride
pride = puttin oneself above all the rest = trusting one above all the rest

Trusting one above all the rest = Not trusting (or trusting less) Eru (the Ultimate Good)

Not trusting Ultimate Good = rejecting it

Rejecting Ultimate Good = being evil

[ November 04, 2002: Message edited by: HerenIstarion ]

[Gandalf_theGrey]

A worthy addition of depth to this discussion indeed. * bows admir-ingly towards Heren Istarion *

[HerenIstarion]

Er, um, ah, thanks Gandalf...

and great pun there [img]smilies/biggrin.gif[/img]

[mark12_30]

The contrast between Frodo's hopelessness and Sam's perennial cheerfulness and persistant trust has always fascinated me. All the more since, at the Shire and then at the Grey Havens, the gulf between Frodo and Sam widens, even when we want it to narrow and disappear.

Since the rings came up, I'm reminded of Frodo's statement that he is naked in the dark with nothing between him an the wheel of fire. I imagine that the ring-influence was what stripped him of hope more than anything else. Yes, Frodo had a practical outlook on Mount Doom's reaction to dropping the ring in, and that they had no Lembas or water left for the return journey, but even before that, he had left hope behind, I think.

...everybody needs a Sam....

[Lostgaeriel]

As Thenamir noted -

Theoden is a good example. Until Gandalf came along he was weak and ineffective because Wormtongue had sowed the seeds of hopelessness and despair for so long. Once Gandalf came along (wearing Narya, the ring of fire, given to him by Cirdan that he might rekindle hope in the hearts of Middle Earth) Theoden regains hope and is transformed into the warrior king he was meant to be.

Tolkien uses the word 'hope' in the Burial Song of Theoden:

Out of doubt, out of dark, to the day's rising
he rode singing in the sun, sword unsheathing.
Hope he rekindled, and in hope ended;
over death, over dread, over doom lifed
out of loss, out of life, unto long glory.

Not only is Theoden transformed into the warrior king, but his new-found hope rekindles hope in the Rohirrim. The attitudes and moods of our leaders influence the actions of our societies.

[elfling]

I love what Carannillion said about the hobbits growth representing hope. I love the idea that hope makes all things possible,not easy but possible. All the characters wrestle with keeping hope in the face of their own personal struggles and those that keep their hope usually conquer. Not always, as good men die such as Hama, who never appeared to slip and loose faith. I also agree we all could use a Sam to keep us going,Mark12-30.

[littlemanpoet]

A pattern begins to emerge immediatly after Gandalf falls into the chasm of Khazad-dum. The remaining eight are grieving his loss after their fashion. I believe it is Legolas who says "without Gandalf we have no hope", or words to that effect. Aragorn responds, "Then we shall have to do without hope."

As it turns out, Legolas was right, for had Gandalf NOT returned, he would not have been able to engage in the battle of wills while Frodo sat atop Henneth Anun (?) wearing the Ring. He would not have been there to rekindles Theoden's vigor. He would not have been the leader of the War, not able to stop Saruman; thus the Palantir would not have found its way into Aragorn's hands, who would not have been able to use it to draw Sauron's eyes away from his own borders, with the result that Frodo and Sam would never have gotten into Mordor at all (in my last reading I became aware of how close a call it was, as it was).

Be that as it may, from the Bridge through Lorien, a Tolkien weaves a pattern of loss of hope and its accompanying grief. Additionally, we encounter the grief of the Elves, who have no hope either way, as Galadriel explains to Frodo - if Sauron wins, all is lost; if the Ring is destroyed, the Elves still lose all that they have made by the Three Rings.

So I concur with Carinillion (sp?) that there is a hopelessness touched with grief, because though much will be saved and renewed by the destruction of the Ring, much will be lost - forever.

And in writing this Tolkien speaks very much to the human condition. Evil tears much good away from us that can never be renewed. So-called progress, fraught with erring human ways, tears us away from the land, a great loss, even as our lives are eased (I will not say improved) in certain ways. And Tolkien evokes the inevitability of this condition. So we mourn the loss of much good, having no hope of its renewal because those times are past.

Yet there is hope. Though Aragorn says we must do without hope, I suspect he may have been speaking of Amdir, but I am not sure. We DO have Sam's hope when he looks to the stars from the Vale of Morgul and sings or says that they will always be there even if Sauron wins the War of the Ring.

I must admit, that doesn't seem like much hope to me - certainly not for Sam and for many generations to come in Middle Earth, were it to turn out thus; yet that's precisely the ONLY hope left to Sam, and to us. And I must say that if I had to choose between Amdir and Estel, I'll take Estel. Every time.

[Estelyn Telcontar]

Thanks to all for the interesting replies! I like hearing your opinions; even more, I enjoy examples from the book(s), with quotes to illustrate the points. I would like to continue on that track, researching Tolkien's use of the word throughout LotR and his other works.

Thenamir, your comparison of Théoden and Denethor is quite fascinating; they died at almost exactly the same time, but the difference in their deaths was due to the presence of hope in the one and its absence in the other. Théoden's death was heroic and accomplished something positive for all of Middle-earth; Denethor's death was cowardly, almost fatal for Faramir and certainly detrimental for his people.

Lostgaeriel, you added to that by quoting Théoden's burial song - a wonderful use of the word 'hope'!

HerenIstarion, thank you for that great example from the story of Finrod and Andreth. The definitions of the two elvish forms of 'hope' are thoughtprovoking - I will certainly read that chapter of Morgoth's Ring as soon as I can. There seems to be a lot about 'hope' in it.

Thenamir and Gandalf the Grey, what an interesting connection between Narya and hope! You have me thinking about hope and fire (since Narya is the ring of fire), wondering about the implications. We do speak of (re)kindling hope, don't we?!

Yes, Carannillion, there is a lot of sadness and hopelessness throughout the book; I think it reflects Tolkien's own tendency to see the world in a depressing light. And yet, hopelessness does not triumph - hope prevails.

Keneldil, you mentioned Maedhros - I would be interested in knowing whether there is any use of the word 'hope' in connection with his story. We can assume that he did have it, yet it would be nice to see if Tolkien expressly says so.

littlemanpoet, thank you for those examples from Khazad-dum. I looked that passage up and found that Aragorn says both "What hope have we without you?" and "We must do without hope." Again, the word is connected with a person, the wearer of Narya!

I think we're on to something there - another personification of 'hope' in Gandalf! Whether by his personality, whether by virtue of Narya, or both, he is 'hope' for those whom he has come to help. He seems to have hope where none else does; when he speaks of Gollum to Frodo, he says that there is little hope of curing the evil part of him.

Yet not no hope.

And at the Council of Elrond, Legolas said:

Gandalf bade us hope still for his cure.

So far, one thing is clear: A person can embody hope and thus become hope for others. We see this especially in Aragorn, Gandalf and Sam, also in Théoden. I'm looking forward to continuing this fascinating discussion!

[Gandalf_theGrey]

Hullo Esty,

You speak of the connection between fire and hope. This reminds me of a fascinating article that I was introduced to on another Tolkien forum. Though the article is called "The Philosophical Etymology of Hobbit," there was a section that truly resonated, and to my mind bears great import on our discussion.

* lights a fresh bowl of pipeweed to wreathe himself in a comfortably smoky element *

Before getting to the quote, allow me to point out the fascinating coincidence that my college nickname was the phoenix, and even in that form I had quite a reputation for producing fires, smokes, and lights (being a member of the International Brotherhood of Magicians at the time).

Now then, on to the quote:

Another confirmation of the birth-context in The Hobbit is found in the chapter "Out of the Frying-Pan into the Fire." Here Bilbo and his companions are chased up some trees (fir, larch, and pine) by Wargs, the fierce wolves who live on the Edge of the Wild in the forests of the Misty Mountains and who consort with goblins. Gandalf the wizard tries to frighten the Wargs away by igniting pine-cones and hurling them down among the beasts. But goblins arrive on the scene and turn the fire against the trapped company, setting the trees ablaze beneath them.(15) Just as all seems lost, the great eagles of the Misty Mountains swoop down, plucking the company from the treetops and taking them to safety in their mountain eyries.

As explained above, the fir-tree (especially the silver fir) was the principal birth-tree of Northern Europe. The old Irish word for the silver fir was ailm, a word also applied to the palm tree. And the palm is the birth-tree of the Middle East in which the Phoenix-bird is born, consumed by fire, and reborn.(16) The Greek name for the silver fir was elate, a component of the name Eileithyia (Elate-Thuia) given to the Great Mother as the goddess of childbirth. The goddess was typically depicted with one arm raised holding a pine-torch.(17) It is certainly the pine-torch of the Birth Goddess that the goblins invoke when in their wild chanting they refer to the burning trees as

A fizzling torch / To light the night for our delight / Ya hey!(18)

One expects the hobbit and his friends, like the Phoenix that is reborn in its fiery ailm, to be compared to birds. Tolkien does not disappoint us. The goblins chant,

Fifteen birds in five firtrees / Their feathers were fanned in a fiery breeze!(19)

And (as though to make sure we get the point),

Fly away little birds! Come down little birds! Sing, sing little birds!(20)

To complete the birth-tree image, the "little birds" do fly away--with the help of the great eagles of the Misty Mountains, whose wings bear them aloft.

The above quote comes from the following website:
http://www.stanmcdaniel.com/hobbit/hobbit.htm

I would say that rebirth certainly ties in with hope. In fact, it also relates nicely to littlemanpoet's point about how hope mingles with grief to produce a greater transcendance. (up from the ashes!) [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img]

Another point to keep in mind is that fireworks commonly explode taking the form of palm trees.

Immensely enjoying this grand discussion,

Gandalf the Grey

[Keneldil the Polka-dot]

Expanding on the Maedhros idea per E.T.'s request:

Maedhros therefore, being in anguish without hope, begged Fingon to shoot him with his bow; and Fingon strung an arrow, and bent his bow.

This is the only explicit use of the word “hope” that I can find in this story. Maedhros had at this point lost *nod to H.I.* "amdir", he no longer had hope of a good outcome. It is possible that such an extreme experience could have caused Maedhros to call his feelings of "estel" into question, but I don’t think they did. To lose estel to me means to question Eru himself. It is possible Maedhros in his abandonment might have lost faith in Eru, but in that case I think he would have simply let go of life while hanging from the Thangorodrim.

Maedhros went through cycles of losing and regaining hope before he was rescued:
- Realization that his kin could not respond to Morgoth’s attempts to use him as a hostage
- Hearing the host of Fingolfin smite the gates of Angband, yet they areunable to hear Maedhros
- Hearing Fingon sing, and then seeing Fingon cannot reach him.
- Being reached via Thorondor, yet unable to break free of the chain.
An emotional rollercoaster to say the least, based on hope or the loss of it.

“His body recovered from his torment and became hale, but the shadow of his pain was in his heart; and he lived to wield his sword with left hand more deadly than his right had been. ”

Maedhros’ trial on the Thangorodrim fundamentally changed him as a person.

“for since his torment upon Thangorodrim his spirit burned like a white fire within, and he was as one that returns from the dead.”

Maedhros attempts to heal the breach in the Noldor by giving the Kingship to Fingolfin, he is the voice of reason with his brothers in dealing with Thingol, he purposefully makes his home in the portion of Beleriand most difficult to defend in order to “lessen the chances of strife and because he was very willing that the chief peril of assault should fall upon himself;”. In the Sil., Maedhros is the only son of Feanor listed among “the great lords of the Noldor.” Later he forms “the Union of Maedhros.” His deeds are not enough to save him from his Oath however.

I wandered from the point a bit [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img] but it was interesting, for me at least. Maedhros’ refusal to give up hope on Thangorodrim led to a lot of good things for the Noldor, even if it did not save them in the end.

[ November 05, 2002: Message edited by: Keneldil the Polka-dot ]

[ November 05, 2002: Message edited by: Keneldil the Polka-dot ]

[Guinevere]

This is an absolutely fascinating thread, I thoroughly enjoyed reading all your deep and thought-provoking posts!

It always struck me that in LotR there is a balance of hope and sadness, anyhow, the overall effect on my mind is uplifting.

But when reading the Silmarillion it seemed much more sad, I felt almost depressed at the end. Especially I can`t get over the hopeless story of Turin Turambar.It ends in complete dispair and disaster. And poor Hurin who really hasn`t deserved such a terrible fate seems utterly forsaken. All his hopes are in vain.
Ever since I kept wondering what made Tolkien write such a story - it is so very different from the spirit in LotR.
Am I the only one who is bothered by this ?

[Carannillion]

A very constructive and interesting discussion indeed, and Estelyn, I greatly appreciate your "feedback-post".

Tolkien's way of viewing the world is quite often reflected in his books. One parallell - as long as we are on the subject - is of course his service during WWI, but another, which fascinates me quite deeply, is "the Scouring of the Shire" compared to the factories being built and ruining the fair countryside where Tolkien grew up. I feel like I share a bit of that experience. As a child, I watched my favourite playground - a tiny pond in the small patch of forest behind our house - turn from "playground paradise" to concrete. I even asked my mom if she could tell those people to stop doing that to the forest. The sadness I felt back then is something I have found to be similar to certain moods in LotR and Sil. Of course, my interpretation of the books is certainly different from other people's, and definetely coloured by me, but that's again one of the many things which makes Tolkien's writings so magnificent: we are all able to recognize ourselves in them from time to time, because they are written by a man who has experienced a lot. A man who knows how to bring his experiences out to other people in a special way.

Not a small digression there, but I just had to tell somebody - you people, that is... [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img] This could probably fit into another thread I remember seeing here some time ago, but I am unable to remember the name of it.

[littlemanpoet]

Guinevere: There is a balance to keep in mind, I think, regarding Tolkien's writings. Think of the balance scales: on one side there lies Tolkien's honest evocation of all those things that come out of his humanity: hope and despair, joy and sorrow, etc. On the other side is what I suppose I might call Tolkien's meta-purpose, to create a myth for England. This is was his meta-purpose for the Silmarillion. Every good meta-myth will have many kinds of story, including tragedies like Turin Turambar and the sad tale of Hurin. Being the great artist he was, Tolkien kept both sides of the balance in equilibrium. He did evoke deep human feeling and so we feel the despair of Turin and Hurin, and we can appreciate the artistry of his tragedy.

I bring this up because (1) it's worthwhile to keep the balance in mind as we think about Tolkien's writings; & (2) the analogy of the balance scales breaks down in that it's really impossible to tell where the evocative purpsoe stops and the meta-mythic purpose begins.

I hope this clarified instead of confused. I'm not sure....

[Estelyn Telcontar]

So far we have seen 'hope' in connection with persons. I have also found some interesting references to hope being given by inanimate objects.

The first is beryl, the elf-stone. It is mentioned twice, once at the bridge between Bree and Rivendell, apparently left there as a signal by Glorfindel. Strider says:

Whether it was set there, or let fall by chance, I cannot say; but it brings hope to me.

Later in Lothlórien, Galadriel gives Aragorn the elf-stone entrusted to her by Arwen for that purpose:

This stone… comes to you as a token of hope.

Interestingly, this stone gives him his name of Elessar, Elf-stone, so another of his names is connected with the word ‘hope’!

A second example is a liquid form of ‘hope’ – miruvor. When Gandalf gives each member of the Fellowship a sip of it in the snowstorm on Caradhras, we read:

As soon as Frodo had swallowed a little of the warm and fragrant liquor he felt a new strength of heart… The others also revived and found fresh hope and vigour.

At Helm’s Deep Aragorn speaks twice of light as a bringer of hope:

Yet dawn is ever the hope of men.
Nonetheless day will bring hope to me.

Can anyone think of additional examples of this usage of ‘hope’ in LotR or Tolkien’s other books?

[ November 10, 2002: Message edited by: Estelyn Telcontar ]

[Guinevere]

@ littlemanpoet: thank you for answering me!
You are right, perhaps I shouldn`t look at Turin`s story separately, but as a part of the whole myth that is the Silmarillion. (But if I`m not mistaken, Turin`s story, or it`s predecessor, was one of the very first ones that Tolkien had written.Perhaps it is so depressive because of Tolkien`s fresh experiences of Worldwar I ? I shouldn`t speculate that way, I know, Tolkien would dislike it...)
Anyhow, I still find the change of mood from the Silm. to LotR striking. There is much more hope in LotR.

@Estelin: When you speak of "objects" connected with hope, the first thing, that comes immediately to my mind is the phial with Eärendil`s light that Galadriel gives to Frodo :

"May it be a light to you in dark places, when all other lights go out"

Eärendil himself, as he sails in the sky with the Silmaril on his brow is a symbol of hope.
The people of Middle-earth took the new star for a sign and called it "Gil-Estel, the Star of High Hope"
"Then the Elves looked up and despaired no longer"

So the splinter of that light, caught in the phial, is also a sign of hope for Frodo and Sam.

[ November 11, 2002: Message edited by: Guinevere ]

[Keneldil the Polka-dot]

I think the shards of Narsil represent hope. Boromir dreams about the Sword-That-Was-Broken and is told to look for it. Narsil represents a connection to the old line of Kings of Gondor. To Boromir's way of thinking, Aragorn's possession of Narsil adds weight to his claim of being Isildur's Heir.

The act of Narsil being reforged into Anduril is a metaphor for hope. It symbolizes the restoration of the line of Elendil to the throne of Gondor. The sword and the act of reforging it add to Aragorn himself as an icon of hope for the people of Gondor in their war against the Shadow.

[Estelyn Telcontar]

The discussion on Arwen’s death (Why did Arwen do that??) reminded me of this topic; I’d like to revive the discussion here. On that thread, The Squatter of Amon Rûdh said:

Indeed it is as though with the loss of Estel the Evenstar has lost hope itself; that she literally cannot live without him.

There we have it again – the personification of Aragorn/Estel as hope and the important role that hope and hopelessness play in the LotR and in the relationship of Arwen and Aragorn.

In Tolkien’s book(s), loss of hope almost invariably leads to the loss of a reason for living. For Gilraen, Aragorn’s mother, he, though Hope for others, was not enough to live for. For Arwen, he was the only reason for living, and losing him meant that nothing else, including their children, could give her the hope she needed to stay alive.

I found more references to Aragorn’s embodiment of hope in “The Houses of Healing”. When Ioreth says: The hands of the king are the hands of a healer, Gandalf replies:

Men may long remember your words, Ioreth! For there is hope in them.

With his healing powers, life returns to the stricken, bringing hope anew. A bit later, Gandalf says:

For it is only in the coming of Aragorn that any hope remains for the sick that lie in the House.

Interestingly, Éowyn accepts the healing, but not the hope. (Aragorn has already left the room when she opens her eyes, so she must not know that he is there, though his voice called her back.)

(Gandalf) ‘Great gladness it is to see you wake again to health and hope, so valiant a lady!’

‘To health?’ said Éowyn. ‘It may be so. At least while there is an empty saddle of some fallen Rider that I can fill, and there are deeds to do. But to hope? I do not know.’

One detail occurred to me about the hope-giving Elf-stones: They are green. In Germany, at least, green is considered the color of hope. Interesting, isn’t it?!

[Firnantoonion]

(Gandalf) ‘Great gladness it is to see you wake again to health and hope, so valiant a lady!’
‘To health?’ said Éowyn. ‘It may be so. At least while there is an empty saddle of some fallen Rider that I can fill, and there are deeds to do. But to hope? I do not know.’

here, hope is used in the same meaning as health, but as health for the fea. when there is no hope, it seems to me that the fea itself is ill, like a wound can mar the hroa, the loss of hope can mar the fea.

therein you see a very deadly point of the nazgul: they take away hope, thus marring the fea, and indirectly the prestations of the hroa. (when there is no hope in a battle why would one fight)

to go even further (and to add even more discussion to it) I would like to state that hope was the interference of Eru to the world, thus giving his children the will to continue and to overcome the evils in the world and thus make the world as it was originally meant in the songs of the ainur.

[ September 05, 2003: Message edited by: Firnantoonion ]

[Amarie of the Vanyar]

Good point, Firnantoonion, when there is no hope (Estel) the fëa in itself is ill, and this is called despair. As Gandalf says to Denethor:

'And only the heathen kings, under the domination of the Dark Power, did thus, slaying themselves in pride and despair, murdering their kin to ease their own death'
The Pyre of Denethor; LotR

Eowyn fëa is not completely healed until she recovers from despair, as the Warden of the Houses of Healing says, some days after her hröa was healed by Aragorn.

to go even further (and to add even more discussion to it) I would like to state that hope was the interference of Eru to the world

Are you referring here to the Old Hope that is mentioned in the Athabeth? I completely agree with it, for me this is the most beautiful use of the word hope (meaning Estel), in all Tolkien writings.

And about the words of Aragorn in Khazad-dum:

"We must do without hope"

In my opinion Aragorn here is using hope with the meaning of Admir (Great post, HerenIstarion [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img] ); and that he really means We must do without Admir, but with Estel.

By the way, Estelyn, green is also the colour of hope in Spain (maybe it is also, in the rest of Europe).

[Firnantoonion]

Are you referring here to the Old Hope that is mentioned in the Athabeth?

yes, I were. and i agree with you that Aragorn means Admir, for one without Estel, would've not continued on the quest.
(poor Boromir, it seems to me that the ring took away his estel, as Sauron did by Denethor)

And the colour green is also the colour of hope in the Netherlands, so I guess that it is this in the rest of Europe too. (at least in England, I think)

[Ophelia]

Hope is what guides you all the way through the book . Imagine if they all would be hopeless pesimists ... There would be no reason to write a book .
A man without hope gives up and brakes under the smallest pressure .

[Guinevere]

Speaking of hope and hopelessness: Something which touched me deeply are those lines about Sam (in "The Black Gate is closed")

And after all, he never had any real hope in the affair from the beginning; but beeing a cheerful hobbit he had not needed hope, as long as despair could be postponed. Now they were come to the bitter end. But he had stuck to his master all the way; that was what he had chiefly come for, and he would still stick to him.

How is it possible to be "cheerful" and without hope at the same time? Tom Shippey in his book "Tolkien,Author of the Century" writes something interesting about this, which he calls "The theory of courage" from the Norse mythology.

About Frodo (in "The Land of Shadow")

"Look here, Sam, dear lad" said Frodo: "I am tired , weary, I haven't a hope left. But I have to go on trying to get to the mountain, as long as I can move."

It is something stronger then than hope that moves them to go on, a sense of duty, of comittment.
And when Sam sits watching over Frodo's sleep in Mordor:

There, peeping among the cloud-wrack (...), Sam saw a white star twinkle for a while. The beauty of it smote his heart, as he looked up out of the forsaken land, and hope returned to him. For like a shaft, clear and cold, the thought pierced him that in the end the Shadow was only a small and passing thing; there was light and high beauty for ever beyond its reach. His song in the Tower had been defiance rather than hope; for then he was thinking of himself. Now, for a moment, his own fate, and even his master's, ceased to trouble him.

This feeling that they are part of something bigger that comforts Sam, is that what the Elves call "Estel" (whereas what we generally call hope is Admir)?

What do you think of these 3 examples ? They move me deeply, but I am no good at expressing my thoughts.

[ September 07, 2003: Message edited by: Guinevere ]

[Eldar14]

Of all the characters that have been listed that are associated with hope, I have noticed that they are all good people and powerful people (Aragorn, Gandalf, etc.). However, there is a character on the opposite ends of the extreme, weak and selfish, who also has an embodiment of hope to accompany him. Gollum.

Gollum may not stand out to be associated with hope. He is one of the few places Frodo looks for hope. Frodo hopes that Gollum can become good again, because if someone so ravaged by the ring as Gollum can recover, then Frodo can also. Frodo looks to Gollum with hope. Also, Gollum turns out to be the final hope for the saving of ME, when he and the hobbits are finally in Mt. Doom.

[Firnantoonion]

At that point, Frodo hasn't any Admir left, and i think even his Estel is dwindling very fast. He is now pulling hope out of all things wich are near to him, jsut to have a reason not to surrender himself. (thanks to the estel he has left)

even the hope to save gollum after the Ring is destroyed, (and indirectly, the hope he himself can be healed) is a little hope that can be added to his Estel, to be able to hold out a day longer.

[Guinevere]

Actually there seems from the beginning only little "hope" (as we use the word) that the quest will succeed. But, as Gandalf points out: "despair is only for those who see the end beyond all doubt"

Boromir and Denethor's outlook is in a way much more "rational", more like how people in our time would react.(Honestly, would we be willing to take such a risk?) "A fools hope" is what Denethor calls it, and at that point, even Gandalf is afraid.

"As I have begun, so I will go an" says Aragorn "we come now to the very brink where hope is akin to despair." "To waver is to fall." He is willing to sacrifice himself (and his army) so that Frodo's small chance of succeeding will be a little bigger.

Frodo himself, though he says he has no hope left , still does not despair (i.e. give up), but struggles on with his last strength. Even Sam has an inner debate with a part of him that wants to give up. They go on, because they don't do it for themselves.

It is this hope - apparently against all odds - this courage, the will to do the right thing, even without the prospect of succeeding ,that impressed me in LotR.

[ September 11, 2003: Message edited by: Guinevere ]

[Evisse the Blue]

It is suggested in many places in LOTR that the courage of the hobbits, that lies dormant deep down inside them, is waiting for a desperate situation to emerge. An example is the barrow-downs scene: Frodo has the feeling that he had come to the end of his adventure, and he 'stiffens himself for a final spring'. It seems to me that the very loss of hope and the certainty of a bitter end gives him the final jolt.
The almost exactly same thing happens in the 'Mt Doom' chapter, only with Sam:

But even as hope died in Sam, or seemed to die, it was turned to a new strength. Sam's plain hobbit face grew stern (..)as if he was turning into a creature of stone and steel that neither despair nor weariness nor endless barren miles could subdue.

Pippin before the Black Gate has his own share of despair and loss of hope, knowing with certainty the end is near and bracing himself to make good use of his Westernesse blade before he died. And of course let's not forget Merry's brave act of stabbing the Witch-King: flashing before his eyes is Dernhelm's face, the face of one in whom all hope has faded. "and suddenly the slow-kindled courage of his race awoke. he clenched his hand. She should not die, so fair, so desperate. At least she should not die alone, unaided.." Even Merry has no hope for himself or Eowyn, he fights the enemy.

I think that this is what made the hobbits so special and the ideal creatures to be entrusted with such a desperate task. The ability to go on when all hope has failed - such an ability no wiser creature, neither men nor elves possessed. I wonder what made them keep going: duty? - the belief that it is their fate to do so?

Guinevere - can you explain your thoughts on what you said about Sam being 'cheerful' and at the same time 'without hope'. How does 'the theory of courage' fit into this? Sadly, I don't own Shippey's book so I'm in the dark on this one.

[ September 11, 2003: Message edited by: Evisse the Blue ]

[Amarie of the Vanyar]

This quality of hobbits, I think, is the reflection of what Tolkien saw in English soldiers during the First World War: how they could go on when all hope seemed lost, particularly the moments in the trenches, before going out to the battle-field. I imagine it quite similar to what is shown in the film 'Gallipolli' (which is also about one of the battles of WWI).

[Guinevere]

@ Amarie : You're right, I remember Tolkien writing exactly about this in one of his letters!

@ Evisse: Uff, it's difficult to tell shortly what Prof.Shippey wrote in that chapter of his excellent book.. [img]smilies/frown.gif[/img]

"The theory of courage" said Tolkien in his BEOWULF lecture of 1936, was the "great contribution " to humanity of the old literature of the North. The Old Norse mythology ended in a Day of Doom. The difference to Christianity was that the forces of evil won over the gods (Ragnarök). If the gods and their human allies were going to lose, what would make anyone want to join their side? The truly courageous answer (Tolkien called it "a potent but terrible solution") is to say that victory or defeat have nothing to do with right and wrong, and that even if the universe is controlled beyond redemtion by hostile and evil forces, that is not enough to make a hero change sides. In a sense this Northern mythology asks more of people than Christianity does, for it offers them no heaven, no reward for virtue except the sombre satisfaction of having done right.
Nevertheless Tolkien was himself a Christian, and he lived in a world in which this "theory of courage" had vanished almost beyond revival or even understanding. (...) In his creative work he needed a new image for ultimate bravery, one which would have some meaning and some hope for emulation for the modern and anti-heroic world.

Sam is in a way presenting a modern version of th "theory of courage", which did not have to be offered the bribe of assured victory at Ragnarök to do its duty. Perhaps the argument may be that only those who need hope to keep going will fall prey to despair when their hope is withdrawn. Those who, like Sam and Pippin, felt from the start that the whole thing was going to be a disaster remain immune, even cheerful, when their expectations are confirmed. Tolkien knew that in the Norse mythology Vön, Hope, is not a cardinal virtue, he also knew that"cheerfulness" is in its origin at least a virtue of the face alone ((chair= Old French for face)

(hope that was not too long [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img] )

btw, on the extended edition of the FotR DVD , on the first Appendix-DVD , in "Tolkien, Creator of Middle earth" People like Prof.Shippey, Humphrey Carpenter, John Howe and Viggo Mortensen are talking just about this topic of hope and courage. It's really worth watching!

[Angry Hill Troll]

going back a way in this thread, on the distinction between the two elvish words which translate as hope, here is another conversation from Athrabeth Finrod ah Andreth

Eru 'accepted and ratified the position' - though making it plain to Manwë that the Valar should have contested Melkor's domination of Middle-earth far earlier, and that they had lacked estel: they should have trusted that in a legitimate war Eru would not have permitted Melkor so greatly to damage Arda that the Children could not come, or could not inhabit it.

so estel essentially amounts to trust in Eru's plan, even if (as is usually the case) one does not know what it is, or foresee how things will work out in the end.

To my mind Gandalf is the greatest embodiment of estel, he knows that the scheme of having Frodo go to Orodruin with the Ring has no logical chance of succeeding. But Gandalf trusts (or has faith in) the unseen plan that put the Ring in Frodo's possession. "For not even the very wise can foresee all ends," Gandalf says--speaking coincidently of Gollum, who makes it possible for the plan to succeed.

Switching slightly to a movie subject, the invented scene in which Elrond says "there is no hope" to which Arwen replies "hope still lives". This is kind of a clever pun for people who know that Estel was Aragorn's pseudonym. But it strikes me as very against Elrond's character that he would be that lacking in estel. What are others' thoughts?

[Dininziliel]

"Hope without reason" was mentioned earlier. To me, this is the resolution of that subtle, apparent conflict which creates a paradox of hope and trust--seemingly the same, seemingly different.

I was deeply affected by a passage in The Silmarillion. It is one I return to often in my life situations because it offers me a viable path to trust and then hope. Iluvatar speaks:

... And thou, Melkor, shalt see that no theme may be played that hath not its uttermost source in me, nor can any alter the music in my despite. For he that attempteth this shall prove but mine instrument in the devising of things more wonderful, which he himself hath not imagined.'

Nothing can change what the one Creator intends. But like Sam, Frodo, Aragorn and Gandalf, as mentioned in earlier messages, one must "see" beyond self and the present situation for the context that allows for the possibility of hope beyond all reason. What Tolkien has done is given us a story that plays out the continual, deepest human crisis--a choice between a personal self in this world--"my" story, and being one part of the great whole--"the" story. (Those situations that call for a choice between what you like, want, your life, or, your discomfort, pain, and possible death.) When all illusions have been stripped away, one does the right thing because there is an innate knowledge--whether conscious, like Gandalf's, or unconscious like hobbits'-- that Eru's will cannot be thwarted. All will be well. This is faith, and hope cannot exist without it. There is peace that passes understanding in this, and it is beautifully portrayed, also cited earlier, when Sam looks up to see the shining star in the middle of darkest Mordor.

I'd like to offer Tolkien's thoughts on faith that, while addressing a topic other than LotR/Silmarillion, provides a direct illustration of their themes: [from Letters # 250]

You speak of 'sagging faith'...In the last resort faith is an act of will, inspired by love. Our love may be chilled and our will eroded by the spectacle of the shortcomings, folly, and even sins of the Church ... but I do not think that one who has once had faith goes back over the line for these reasons ... But the act of will of faith is not a single moment of final decision: it is a permanent indefinitely repeated act > state which must go on--so we pray for 'final perseverence.'

What Frodo, Sam, Gandalf, and Aragorn have is this "final perseverance" and each epitomizes its different aspects to be found in humans of faith and, thus, hope.

I do not think Tolkien looked upon hope as the naive wish for things to be other than what they are. I think he has given us the perfect story that resonates in our hobbit souls, if not our minds--there is hope because faith is the most practical and only actual sane choice in an insane world.

To close, I would like to thank Estelyn for the original post. I was moved by the considerations of Aragorn, which were not apparent to me before reading them. This is why I love my Barrows--I get an education, enlightenment, and joy from both!

[Evisse the Blue]

it strikes me as very against Elrond's character that he would be that lacking in estel

Very true, and that is just one flaw of MovieElrond (see the movie thread Aragorn and Elrond for more).
dininziliel's Tolkien quote on faith brought to mind that passage from the Bible: "Faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen". It is not based on reason but on the the sparkle of deity, the inner goodness inside all of us that tells us to do the right thing.
Guinevere, thanks for detailing the theory of courage for me. [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img]