LotR2-TTT-Seq03

[alatar]

Where there's smoke...

The Ring of Isengard reeks of fire and burning and pits, and is a grey death pox, a far cry from when we first saw the place in FotR when Gandalf sought advice from Saruman. The White Wizard communes with the ‘other tower’ at Barad-dûr. Again we learn that these to maia are in league. The extra bucks that you spent on multiple viewing of FotR in the theater allow us to see the legions of orcs leaving the Dark Tower. The camera takes a spiral flight aorund and to the top of Barad-dûr. The reason I believe for the spin is that the entire ‘bigature’ model is too large to construct in one place, and so is digitally stitched together.

This tower "...wall upon wall, battlement upon battlement, black, immeasurably strong, mountain of iron, gate of steel, tower of adamant..." is immense, and not with 7000 soldiers of Free Folk, the vanguard of Gondor’s might in the days of old, could you successfully lay siege and win.

Saruman entitles Sauron as “Lord,” and so he is working for the Big Eye or is just using that forked tongue to daunt even the Lord of Gifts. Saruman states that he and Sauron will co-rule ME, and that’s a bit delusional, as Sauron doesn’t play well with others. This is clearly a case of the White Hand not knowing what the Black Hand is doing. And did you wonder if orcs were sent to the top of the tower to clean the eye-goo from the lidless One?

We see more tree-chopping orcs, and I assume that these trees are outside the Ring, as the deforestation is pretty complete within. Wherever the trees come from, they feed the fires of Saruman’s forges. The mind of wheels and metal looks on as his minions burn burn burn. The forests will all go into the fire.

Not really a good idea, and I wonder if Saruman and Sauron are truly that stupid, as if everything ‘living’ is poisoned, burned, spoiled, killed, etc, just how does one exist? Do S&S want to rule over a silent graveyard?

The swords of the Uruks, we see, are mass produced. Give them a pointy length of metal and let them hack away – no time for works of art. Armor piles up, and more orcs are being hatched. Quite the assembly line factory of death that Saruman has there. If only such energy could go into something positive…

But even in the anti-Paradise, there’s troubles. Not enough wood? Everything else is plentiful, strawberries and cream, but the orcs just need more fuel to meet the production quota (Sauron owns 51% of the shares in Orthanc, and if Saruman’s group doesn’t meet market expectations, the stock price will drop. Sauron’s portfolio will suffer and heads will surely roll.)

Cut the trees down of Fangorn. That’s a pretty brilliant idea as we will later see. Saruman knows of Balrogs, can modify weather at a distance, has a palantir, can make orcs out of earth (just add water), but somehow misses those big walking sticks just on the other side of the hill. Aren't there other trees you can acquire?

Next, Saruman gets the Dunlendings to start attacking the Rohirrim. You just can’t send orcs to do everything, and it’s smart to be diversified. The leader signs the contract with Saruman in blood. A pen would have done, but the man is a real go-getter and full of enthusiasm. Saruman promises the Wild Men full dental coverage in exchange for going to war on his side. Sure, on the surface it looks like a good deal…

But they're probably still fuming over Helm punching out Freca, so it was an easy sell.

Saurman’s voice incites these men to go off and attack mounted soldiers with mostly wooden tools. Not exactly sure what the war strategy is, and didn’t anyone notice that Saruman is hoping to do away with the world of men? Clue to Dunlendings...you're not good-looking orcs. But anyway, we have these crazies off on a burn and pillage walk in the countryside.

We get to see up close Saruman’s targets, from the ground. People flee as best they can as the enemy approachs. We see a boy, Eothain, placed on a horse along with his sister Freda by their mother, who will foot it and try to meet up with them at Helm's Deep. Or was it Edoras? The children are sent away, and reluctantly they go. The daughter clings to her mama, not understanding that the tide of death is coming.

This was a bit of a hard scene to watch, as, as always, I think of my children in the same situation. And where is dad?

The butchers arrive, and do what they do.

PJ did well here as we’re not watching some heroic fight of men, but we see the burning of a village and the slaughter of noncombatants – innocents, the old, the infirm, the slow. Children aren’t attacked on the screen, but you can extrapolate. We're definitely not on the fence here. Bad guys are bad.

Next we see more destruction that Saruman’s hordes have wrought. From the look of the debris, these fallen aren’t villagers but soldiers, killed defending the Ford of Isen.

A troop of riders come looking for the King’s son, Théodred. The guy without the helm we will learn is Éomer (characters requiring face recognition typically scorn safety). The rescuers search the dead, looking for one death in the statistic. The evidence that these are not Sauron’s orcs is noted, for Éomer’s soldiers and for PJ’s audience. The search bears fruit, and they find that for which they sought. It’s the King’s son, and he still lives. He is carried on horseback, held by Éomer, and you can only imagine what all of that bouncing around is doing to his innards.

Morning sun glint off of the spears as the rider approach civilization. We come along with the riders to Edoras, which appears to be a stockade fort with houses within. Primitive and a bit shoddy. Next we see Éomer’s sister, Éowyn, as she enters the Golden Hall of Brego (not too shoddy that, meaning the hall of course).

The column design is "viney," and is ornate I guess, but not sure what PJ was going for there. The appendices show the building of the hall, and I think that we and the actors benefited from a real place. And they transplanted all of the weeds, and then put them back when the hall was deconstructed.

Éowyn enters the room of Théodred, and examines the wound in his chest/abdomen. The look on her face, this shieldmaiden, tells us that Théodred is not long for this world. And think about that. We didn’t have to see gore to get the picture, so to speak. Subtlety?

Éomer and Éowyn exchange knowing glances, and I like Karl Urban here, as you can see the pain and frustration and concern in his face. Next, nursemaid Éowyn and soldier Éomer deliver the bad news to King Théoden. His ashen face shows nothing, not a tick, as he learns of his son lying wounded. No wailing, no running off to be at his son's side, not even a small pyre on which to burn his yet living heir (must be a southern royalty thing). Éomer goes beyond the bad news and speaks of revenge, and obviously not just for Théodred.

But what’s this? Someone speaks on behalf of the king. Grima Wormtongue enters the room from the side. You get one look at this guy and you know that he’s lying and evil (and wasn’t that an observation from a character in the book?). But he dotes upon the king, who mutters his name. Is Théoden agreeing with the Wormtongue, or is he mustering what little strength he has in order to silence this poisoned tongue?

Éomer again states the present threat and indicated by words and proofs the name of the enemy. Éowyn glances from the white-handed helmet cast at Théoden’s feet, then to Grima, as if to say, “explain that, if you can.”

But Grima is an experienced spinner, and ignores the evidence and deflects Éomer’s attack to the king. When in doubt, go with ad hominem. Bad news? Kill the messenger, or at least show him the door (then open it and throw him out). We learn, in Wormtongue’s words, that these two are nephew and niece to the King, though I think that it’s put differently in ME (i.e. sister-son, sister-daughter, etc).

Éomer, vilified as a warmonger, has had enough of Grima twisted words and so grabs him. Grima’s in the pocket of Saruman, and we learn by his subtle glance the payment for his treachery. Is Éowyn the Beauty to Grima’s Beast, but instead of being guided by love, his soul is black and empty?

Geek. Down snake.

As Éomer makes to tighten the gibbet, Grima plays another hand. He may stalk Éowyn and blatantly lie in front of the King about the intentions of the King’s own kin, but there’s more to this little man than just words and stares. Two heavy hands fall on Éomer’s shoulders, and Éomer knows that the hands aren’t friendly, as the little worm smiles.

The bodyguards beat Éomer as he is banished from Rohan. But more hurtful to Éomer than the blows he receives is sight of the signed proclamation. Now, no one thinks or believes that the King really signed it, but as Éomer too knows, at this point, what’s the difference between a real edict and one penned by the Wormtongue? Other are already following his orders, and that says it all.

Game over.

Where did Éowyn go? And Éomer, a likely foe of the dark forces, will be needed, but now he’s banished, and so where, too, will he go?

[Eomer of the Rohirrim]

This is a point about the series as a whole and movies in general, really; but I think of it now because I remember Éomer's introduction in the book and I loved it.

I don't think the characters are introduced properly. For quite a while, the audience is left wondering 'Who's that?' and then maybe 20 minutes later someone will randomly mention his/her name. Same went for Boromir in FotR. I want the characters to greet the audience.

Anyway, I positively adore the shot of Barad-dur at the start of this sequence. It takes my breath away every time. If I ever have a castle I want it to look as terrifying as that. I wonder how it looks on a sunny Spring morn, though.

[alatar]

Originally Posted by Eomer of the Rohirrim

I don't think the characters are introduced properly. For quite a while, the audience is left wondering 'Who's that?' and then maybe 20 minutes later someone will randomly mention his/her name. Same went for Boromir in FotR. I want the characters to greet the audience.

Not sure how you do that without making the 'naming' stand out or repetitious (i.e. every time a new character appears, someone says his/her name). I understand your concern, though. Most hopefully will have at least skimmed the books to have an idea as to who's who.

Anyway, I positively adore the shot of Barad-dur at the start of this sequence. It takes my breath away every time. If I ever have a castle I want it to look as terrifying as that. I wonder how it looks on a sunny Spring morn, though.

Spring time in Mordor? All of the red torches replaced with bright bouquets? After the initial 5000 viewings, I started wondering how one maintains such a structure. How do the orcs at the top-most levels eat? How long does it take the supplies to get there? What about water? How is it heated/cooled, and what about air getting into the inside?

These and other questions would have to be answered before I'd consider buying the place.

[Lathriel]

One thing I like of this sequence is that not much is revealed of the golden hall. That happens later when Gandalf and co. arrive which gives you a chance to see it for the first time just as the characters do.

Whoever played Theodred had an easy time, he just had to lie there.

Barad-dur looks awesome. Although we laready saw it in the first movie I think we see it more closely this time around. The heroes get closer so we get a closer look to what they are up against.

For me the re-hashing scene of the destruction of Isengard wasn't completely neccessary. (Seeing them make all those weapons AGAIN) However, I did think that the whole Dunlending part was pretty cool.We also get our first look of Fangorn forest. I liked it that they put in the extra part about cutting the trees because it makes the part at the end (Treebeard, "I have known these trees...") make more sense.

Grima is rather creepy, Brad Dourif actually shaved his eye brows (LOL).

[Essex]

I've forgotten hopw good the EE TT is. a lot of extra scenes here that add to the depth and atmosphere of the films.

so well filmed, the shot of the fords of isen, saruman walking past his orcs looking proud, the first entrance of Grima, the drop of the orcs helmet by grima's feet.

the tree falling through the hole in the grouns down to the pits below looks SO real, even after countless viewings.

The only thing I don;t like is the woman with her two kids - errrrgggghhh! it's so corny! 'I WILL find you!!!' - and the overacting from the girl on the horse - it does my head in!!!

the scrawl on eomer's warrant looks very much like Theoden's hand to me - totally out of control - just a scrawl across the paper.......

[alatar]

Originally Posted by Essex

The only thing I don;t like is the woman with her two kids - errrrgggghhh! it's so corny! 'I WILL find you!!!' - and the overacting from the girl on the horse - it does my head in!!!

Like I said, I think that PJ was playing heavy-handedly as he really wanted us to be scared of this extermination force of Saruman's. One way to do this was to personalize it, and so we get the names of two children, and we see one pulling at her mother. Like in later scenes, PJ goes from the wide shot to the zoomed in view.

the scrawl on eomer's warrant looks very much like Theoden's hand to me - totally out of control - just a scrawl across the paper.......

Inevitably, when sitting in a lecture, I'd start to drift off towards sleep. My notes would show "sleep lines" - scrawl lines down the the page where my pen went south.

[Tuor of Gondolin]

There is a problem here, touched on above, in the
movie version of Rohan's defense. In the book there
are effective (relatively small) Rohannic forces in the
east and especially in the west (the West Emnet being
partially mobilized). At no time, even after the Disaster
at the Fords of Isen could Saruman's forces roam totally unopposed
thorughout at least western Rohan. Yet in the movie there
are virtually no forces (even Theoden later brings a bare (100?)
or so with him west, but then suddenly later at the muster of
Rohan thousands of fighters pop up! Of course, PJ is trying
the gambit of portraying impossible odds, but in, for
example, Karen Forsted's encyclopedia it's calculated the
odds at Helm's Deep (sorry to jump ahead) are about
10,000 to 2,000 or so, not the upsurd odds in the movie.
As noted above, where's the kids daddy? If off fighting, then
why wasn't the village evacuated?

[JennyHallu]

Perhaps the father is a soldier, and had already been off with the army for sometime. Perhaps the child had no father, considering the past history of orkish raids in the area. Perhaps he was just too busy preparing for his cameo as a Corsair in the next movie.

And 2000 to 10000 is pretty hellish odds, Tuor. When you have a force of 10,000 marching through your countryside, no force of 100 has any way to stand. If that was the basic unit size of Theoden's army, then the muster of Rohan was absolutely necessary. No point needlessly sacrificing men to defend an indefensible land, gather everyone to you in a central, defensible position the enemy cannot ignore. And is the 2000 figure from your encyclopedia before or after the arrival of Helm?

[Tuor of Gondolin]

I don't have the book with me, I'll try to have the
section tomorrow. Yes, 5-1 odds are daunting, but
when you also have the advantage of defense
at Helm's Deep and to retreat into the caves not,
at least in the short run, impossible. Recall that in
the book the defense is quite successful until the
explosives blow up a hole, and even then there is
an effective charge, not the two or three horsemen of the movie.
The thing is,the movie depiction stretches credulity by not even
suggesting the appearance of local defensive forces in the Westfold.
Where is the contingency planning which a younger, able
Theoden would have had prepared, and which Theodred
Eomer, Grimbold, etc. would have
implemented? Recall that in the movie it's only the
smallish Edoras population that is taken to Helm's Deep.
But in the book it's people of the West Emnet who flock there.

[JennyHallu]

I thought the movie was more believable. To my mind, attempting to defend the West Emnet is an impossible task...look at a map. West Emnet depends on Orthanc to be defensible. There are no natural defenses against Saruman.

And how do you know that the straggling refugees from West Emnet didn't try to defend themselves before fleeing? Maps don't give us any large settlements there...the inhabitants would have been crushed. Perhaps PJ gives us a more, not less, hopeful situation. In the movie, there were survivors from the West of Rohan.

And while PJ did paint the defense of Helm's Deep in terrible and desperate colors, it was a last stand. It was intended to be desperate. It was intended that the arrival of the Trees and Gandalf with the dawn should feel like the ultimate reminder of hope, and the last gleam of light before Sauron's darkness overfell the land. I never felt it to be a terribly possible thing, even in the book. That was why their arrival was wonderful.

[Elladan and Elrohir]

No doubt about it, PJ has made everything more desperate and more personal. Heavy-handed is a good way to describe it. Some book fans complain about all this, but I personally think it's fine. The scene before the Battle of Helm's Deep with the old men and boys leaving the women is pretty moving and really drives home the message of the cost of war.

Karl Urban is a brilliant Eomer; unfortunately his character suffers from an underdose of screen time (which was inevitable). He perfectly portrays the passion, desperation, emotion, and sternness that the part requires.

Obviously Brad Dourif is so good a Wormtongue as to be almost spooky. It's crazy to hear that guy's real-life American accent, and compare it with his voice in the films. Actors like Elijah Wood and Sean Astin did a pretty good job converting to Brits, but Dourif makes you believe he is one.

[Essex]

Originally Posted by Elladan and Elrohir

Obviously Brad Dourif is so good a Wormtongue as to be almost spooky. It's crazy to hear that guy's real-life American accent, and compare it with his voice in the films. Actors like Elijah Wood and Sean Astin did a pretty good job converting to Brits, but Dourif makes you believe he is one.

I reckon Elijah did a brilliant job with an English accent. Being from Albion itself, I think he did the best job out of all of the cast with their voices, closely followed by Kate Blanchett.

Brad Douriff had it easy by having a stereotypical very posh accent he conveyed. Elijah's wasn't as easy to do as this one, it was more 'well spoken' then 'posh'.

Sean Astin tried (fairly well) to give a west country lilt to Sam, but it kept falling back to mid atlantic every now and then.

other 'slips' with people's accents - Aragorn stating 'Sauron the Deciever' and 'let the lord of the black land come forth' slipped right back to his american accent and the best one of all was Sean Bean going back to his Sheffieled accent on Caradhras - 'Let's take the road back to my Citeh!!!' (instead of City!!!!)

[Elladan and Elrohir]

I must defer to the judgment of Essex as he, being a Brit, knows a lot more about what is a good British accent than I do. I just think there's a couple of spots where Elijah's accent is a little off. Like, "I think we should get off the road" sounds just a tad overdone. To me. Maybe not to you.

I'm not sure Viggo is ever trying to adopt a British accent, because he rarely sounds like he could actually be British. Another great Viggo American line is his first one: "You pay far too little attention to yourself, Mister Underhill." Oh, and then there's his words to Eomer: "I'm Aragorn, son of Arathorn. This is Gimli son of Gloin, and Legolas of the woodland realm." Another classic.

[Essex]

yes, good point over aragorn - I think he goes for a 'mid atlantic' accent, but drifts back into his american one now and then!

but I must argue about your second point on Frodo -

some of the best delivered lines of the film come from Frodo (for me) - funnily enough 'get of the road!' is one of them - not a whiny, silly hobbit as some have pointed out, but a hobbit with some savvy, even near the begining of the movie!

also, his 'What shall I do' when he accepts the Ring.

and of course,

'Im here Sam' by the cracks of Doom.

All great delivered lines, and with a good 'accent' (to me anyway!!!!!)

[Lathriel]

I personally don't have much trouble with accents because I can't hear small differences very well. English is my second language so some things still elude me from time to time. Of course I can hear more obvious ones (Difference between American and Australian) but I just can't find these accent problems you guys are constantly talking about.

[Farael]

Ok, I'm not as 'inspired' for this scene, but I'll give it a try.

On the plus side, I think the village scene is masterfully done. It could have been very gory, heads being choped off all over the place, brutal men (or pretty orcs, I'm not sure in which category they fall) biting off flesh of still living women... and we would probably say "well, it's shocking, but that is what he was trying to achieve".

Yet PJ does not. While the acting was not quite perfect, the scene of the mother and her children gets the job done. We see how families are torn appart, we see enough examples of the wild men killing innocents but not too many.

On the minus side, the whole comunication scene between Saruman and Sauron... well, I don't buy it. First of all, as noted before, why is Saruman adressing Sauron as his lord? if he really wants to co-rule ME, he should start by adressing the other as a peer, not a superior. Then, I must admit that the scenes of Orthanc and Barad-dur are pretty impressive... but I don't buy them. Orthanc is somewhat beliable, but the stronghold of the Dark Lord does not look plausible enough.

Points for making it obvious that Barad-dur rather than being one tall tower suported by whatever structures they built, it is actually a tower suported by a mountain (you can see rocky outcrops in the lower levels) but.... am I the only one who thinks that the "eye holder" (why does the eye need a holder anyway?) strangely resembles some sort of ornate torch? I just don't buy it I guess.... it does not look completely real.

Anyway, that's it for now... I'm sure glad I stumbled upon scene 4 which got me to join this discussion as a whole!

Edit: Going back to the eye-holder discussion... when you read the books, did you think that the fiery eye existed as a physical thing? I always thought it was more like Sauron mind's eye... something that did not exist in the material but rather the spiritual plane... what do you think? (and if it makes for a good discussion, I might open a new thread outside this section as it might be a bit off-topic here)

[Tuor of Gondolin]

originally posted by Farael

when you read the books, did you think that the fiery eye existed as a physical thing? I always thought it was more like Sauron mind's eye... something that did not exist in the material but rather the spiritual plane..

Yes and no. It might be seen as not being
material as such, but relying on a physical medium (Sauron
reembodied) to exist as a presence in Middle-earth.

[alatar]

Originally Posted by Farael

Edit: Going back to the eye-holder discussion... when you read the books, did you think that the fiery eye existed as a physical thing? I always thought it was more like Sauron mind's eye... something that did not exist in the material but rather the spiritual plane... what do you think? (and if it makes for a good discussion, I might open a new thread outside this section as it might be a bit off-topic here)

My problem with the Eye is that it appears that Barad-dur was built to house the Eye. The dual peaks at the top appear to be the swivel on which the Eye moves. Later, in RotK, when the Eye becomes the full blown searchlight, this is very apparent.

And stupid.

The attached image shows another problem. Unless the top of Barad-dur turns a few degrees on its base, The Lidless One's vision is occluded by the spires.

[Lathriel]

Just adding something to the heavy-handed issue. PJ could have gotten heavy on the gore if he wanted but he didn't. I am really glad he didn't because I am not the kind of person who loves gore.

I didn't mind the mother and the kids, it made Rohan more human because you got to catch a glimpse of the people. I find this lacking in Gondor where there are hardly any civilians who say something other than running and screaming during the seige. So, for some reason I didn't feel like I got such an intimate picture of Gondor as I had with Rohan.

[Boromir88]

I know what Eomer means with the names and introducing characters. When my niece first watched the movies she thought Eomer was Boromir's brother (I guess they look kind of a like), and then I said it was Eomer. She's like who, and I said watch.

My favorite part, and probably one of my favorite lines of this sequence is Eomer telling Grima: "Too long have you watched my sister, too long have you haunted her steps." Directly from the books, but Gandalf is given this line in the books, and I like the change over to Eomer (though it be minor I think Jackson did the right thing). No disrespect to Tolkien, but I think the line suits Eomer, being Eowyn's brother, much better than some random old guy that pops in once in a while.

I perhaps will have more, as I'm trying to catch up on the time I've missed but it's late.

[doug*platypus]

My favorite part, and probably one of my favorite lines of this sequence is Eomer telling Grima: "Too long have you watched my sister, too long have you haunted her steps." Directly from the books, but Gandalf is given this line in the books, and I like the change over to Eomer (though it be minor I think Jackson did the right thing). No disrespect to Tolkien, but I think the line suits Eomer, being Eowyn's brother, much better than some random old guy that pops in once in a while.

I concur, Laconic Loreman. It seems to fit better with Éomer. It's nice to see wherever there are examples of positive changes from the book. Somewhere where PJ enhanced the story rather than degrading it.

Going back to the eye-holder discussion... when you read the books, did you think that the fiery eye existed as a physical thing? I always thought it was more like Sauron mind's eye... something that did not exist in the material but rather the spiritual plane... what do you think?

Very well put, Farael. No, I didn't conceive of the Eye as something you could see unaided. I got the impression that it was a power which Frodo felt rather than saw in general, and that it could only be seen when aided by the Ring or the Mirror of Galadriel. I think this would make a good discussion thread, as I'm sure most Downers have an opinion on this; there are probably some good quotes to back up such opinions as well. I can't recall any myself.

I also thought it was a good decision to show the death of Théodred, as we then get a feeling for the pain which Saruman has caused Rohan and Théoden in particular (aside from the brutal slaying of villagers).

The discovery by Éomer's men that the orcs were in the service of Saruman is a little meaningless, as we already know from FOTR that Saruman had orcs at his command. I wonder whether the mystery would have played out better if FOTR had left the origin of the orcs as ambiguous.

I am not a fan of PJs decision to send Éomer away, only to bring him back with Gandalf later. I would have much preferred to have Éomer with Théoden the whole time. So, I think in this scene that Éomer should have been imprisoned rather than banishéd.