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01-29-2006, 12:00 PM | #1 | |
Ghost Prince of Cardolan
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Generals and armies
Well, let's hope I have better luck with this thread than the one I started last time... I couldn't find anything that dealt with these issues before.
I was reading the "Do you think Tolkien would be insulted by the LoTR movies? thread and I noted a little side-conversation with regards to the elves in Helms Deep. Now, while in the books (thanks Boromir88) there is absolutely no mention what so ever of elves in Helms Deep (besides Legolas of course) on the battle of the fields of Pelenor we know that Elrond's sons are present. Yet on the battle at the Black Gate we have this quote Quote:
If I thought this was the explanation for the elves at Helms Deep I would have posted this in the movie forum yet I'd like to focus the discussion away from PJ's work and into Tolkiens. Have the elves really given up on humanity? If I'm not mistaken, the elves at Mirkwood were fighting a powerful enemy at the time, the elves of Lorien and Rivendel had to work hard to protect their domains.... and yet it is possible that they sent two armies to the rescue of Gondor (Namely, with Elladan and Elrohir). I know the bases for this argument are rather weak because when Elladan, Elohir and the Dunedain meet with Aragorn and the Rohorrim it is said that there are thirty of them, if I'm not mistaken. Yet I always thought that Tolkien had not quite managed to show the massive amounts of people present in the battle of Pelenor and the Black Gate. Maybe, if we consider the names of the people mentioned as the name of a general and his soldiers (Not necessarily whole armies but maybe a couple hundred fighters) the battle will seem more crowded all of a sudden. IT will also explain how only thirty Dunedain and two elves were THAT much of a difference makers. I know there will be quotes that say exactly how many they are and if I'm not mistaken there is a quote by Theoden saying that each of those men are worth a hundred of his (or something along those lines) yet for a moment assume that maybe they were excelent yet under-manned field generals and that their names represent them and their soldiers. Doesn't the battle of Pelenor seem more terrible, crowded and realistic? Feel free to say "No, not really... I like it how it is" if those are your thoughts.. and let's hope this has not been discussed before. If it has, maybe someone should give me lessons of forum searching.
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01-29-2006, 12:12 PM | #2 | ||
Laconic Loreman
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I'm not exactly sure if this is what you are looking for, but I'll give it a shot...First though:
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This is becoming the Age of Men, and so they have to do the grunt work of the fighting. Though the help of Legolas, Elladan, and Elrohir, kind of backs up that, though this is Men's time to run Middle-earth, they aren't alone. As for the other part. We are given the numbers of the Dunedain, along with Elladan and Elrohir, so I just don't see how it can be assumed there were more than that.
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01-29-2006, 12:23 PM | #3 | ||
Ghost Prince of Cardolan
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If you have a quote that proves that idea completely wrong, don't shy away from posting it... as I've read the books in Spanish it is possible that when it was translated that certainty was lost. From my readings of the book, there is nothing to indicate that it is not possible that Tolkien talked of the generals/captains as individuals when they were actually leading a few of their men.
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01-29-2006, 12:26 PM | #4 | |
Eagle of the Star
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Well, their number appears in the Last debate, RotK:
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01-29-2006, 12:40 PM | #5 | ||
Ghost Prince of Cardolan
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Then the precense of the sons of Elrond would be much more strongly felt, the couple of hundred of Dunedain would be really a devastating army by themselves... and as I said before, it should be taken into account that in the times LoTR was set in, saying "King X" or "General Z" meant the king and his army.
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01-29-2006, 01:25 PM | #6 | ||
Eagle of the Star
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01-29-2006, 01:33 PM | #7 | |
Flame of the Ainulindalë
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But I think it's another matter to talk about Tolkien's usage of language. Although Tolkien was pretty serious with his characters, middle-earth languages, people etc. being so old-storylike than he was, his prose is quite modern. Or to be more exact, modern and romantic at the same time. He did not write like the venerable Bede or Snorri Sturluson, but as a twentieth century author.
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01-29-2006, 01:37 PM | #8 | |
Ghost Prince of Cardolan
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With respect to Raynor's comment I still think that two hundred men (under the mentioned captain's command) would not alter greatly the odds and yet make a little more sense. But as Nogrod said, I am not taking Tolkien's style into account.
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01-29-2006, 02:07 PM | #9 | |||
Laconic Loreman
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As far as the Generals/armies thing. Yes, in ancient times the name of a General or King also includes their army. For instance in the Crusades, often it is just "King Lionheart versus Saladin" and the only names as mentioned, but of course it includes their armies. And as Nogrod says, Shakespeare typically did the same. But, it's not a style, as far as I've seen Tolkien used. When naming a General/Commander, Tolkien always gives us atleast an approximated number of their men. As far as I'm aware of that is. Let's take for instance when the outlying lords are coming into Minas Tirith: Quote:
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01-29-2006, 02:58 PM | #10 | |
Illusionary Holbytla
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Farael - interesting thoughts and an interesting thread, but I'm going to have to disagree with you.
From "The Passing of the Grey Company": Quote:
Also, even barring that, it wouldn't make sense that the Dunedain would have soldiers with them. They're a scattered, dwindling people, generally scorned by the men of the north and unknown by men of the south. Where are they going to get an army from? As for Elladan and Elrohir, if they had brought an army with them I certainly think it would have been significant enough to mention. We wouldn't just be talking some more troops here, we'd be talking about Elvish troops - unexpected and unusual. As other people have commented about Tolkien's style, it would be extremely strange for him not to have mentioned this - if not upon their arrival, then upon the specific organizing of troops in the Last Debate. |
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01-29-2006, 03:51 PM | #11 |
Ghost Prince of Cardolan
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I concede!! but it was an interesting thought to much about. I can't recall the exact quote and I hope you forgive me if I don't go looking through my books for it, but in my Spanish version is not quite as definite. Something along the lines of "With me we are thirty dunedain. We couldn't gather many soldiers in such haste" which could be read as "There is thirty generals and a bunch of soldiers for each... not many"
Although for some reason, the quote I mentioned before of Elrond's sons standing on one hill with the Prince of Dol-Amoroth and some hand-picked soldiers made me think that they were mentioning the captains of each army (i.e. Elven army, Dol-Amoroth army and some 'extra' hand-picked soldiers) Yet you are right Firefoot.... an army of elven warriors would have been noteworthy.
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