The Hobbit - Chapter 03 - A Short Rest

[Estelyn Telcontar]

A short chapter! One of the shortest in the book – the narrator’s lines sound almost programmatic:

...things that are good... are soon told about...

No danger in this chapter, and only a bit of suspense in finding Rivendell, yet the fact that it introduces us to Tolkien’s Elves makes it memorable. The landscape is described with a good deal of detail. Does the fact that the road is marked with white stones remind you of the fairy tale of Hansel and Gretel?

What do Elves smell like? Bilbo’s remark makes me wonder. We do find out how they rhyme – with a lot of nonsense! There have been past discussions on how to reconcile “Tra-la-la-lally” with “The Lay of Leithian”; this is your opportunity to share your opinions. We see them laughing – a huge contrast to the melancholy Elves of the Legendarium.

I have chosen Rivendell when asked which is my favourite place in Middle-earth, and this chapter is the source. Who could resist a place like this?

His [Elrond’s] house was perfect, whether you liked food, or sleep, or work, or story-telling, or singing, or just sitting and thinking best, or a pleasant mixture of them all.

All of them... grew refreshed and strong in a few days there. Their clothes were mended as well as their bruises, their tempers and their hopes.

I find it interesting that Elrond was able to read the runes on the swords, but Gandalf apparently not. The same applies to the moon letters on the dwarven map. The description of Elrond is wonderful:

He was as noble and as fair in face as an elf-lord, as strong as a warrior, as wise as a wizard, as venerable as a king of dwarves, and as kind as summer.

Is this the same Elrond we see in the LotR movies?!

I recall a fairly recent thread on the exact timing of Durin’s Day. This chapter gives us the information. It then ends with their departure from Rivendell.

My favourite quote (one I know by heart) is definitely this one:

Now it is a strange thing, but things that are good to have and days that are good to spend are soon told about, and not much to listen to; while things that are uncomfortable, palpitating, and even gruesome, may make a good tale, and take a deal of telling anyway.

Isn’t it true?! I often think that in real life situations.

Which parts of the chapter interest you most? Which information do you think important?

[Tuor of Gondolin]

Now it is a strange thing, but things that are good to have and days that are good to spend are soon told about, and not much to listen to; while things that are uncomfortable, palpitating, and even gruesome, may make a good tale, and take a deal of telling anyway.

That is one of my favorite quotes in TH or LOTR. it
says so much and also illustrates the importance
of rest, recovery, etc., which even more in LOTR
makes the adventures more "real" then many
print and video sagas, which tend to be almost
total non-stop action, even in good movies, like
the Indiana Jones ones. In them, the constant
fighting and survival become more and more
improbable- even on the comic book level.

On the other hand, the coincidence of finding the
Hidden Door seems to stretch credulity (unless
you write in later the hand of the valar or
Iluvatar in seen in LOTR).

[Melilot Brandybuck]

I think that the apparent light-heartedness of the elves in this chapter reflects Bilbo's first meeting with them, and how they appeared to him, through his eyes. After all, the ring was yet to be discovered, with the troubles that occur in LoTR some time off. Bilbo was probably only vaguely aware of the history of the elves, if at all, so to him they were creatures of wonder and mirth - the troubled and sorrowful side of their existence was not obvious to him on this first meeting.

I think it's right that they are portrayed in such a way. As this was my first introduction to ME, if Tolkien had depicted them as melancholy and brooding, I would have thought, "What's up with these stupid navel-gazing elves? They live in this wonderful valley with food, wine and song a-plenty but they're wandering around with faces like a wet weekend..." As the story of the elves unfolds in LoTR, you learn that in fact the elves have a troubled past and face a bleak future. But at this point, we as readers aren't aware of a ring, nor is Bilbo, so it's enough for us to know that elves are a light-hearted and wondrous folk who are willing to help a bedraggled bunch of hungry and forlorn travellers.

[Tuor in Gondolin]

Melilot Brandybuck:
Generally, your point about the elves is
tenable, although it's hard to imagine
Glorfindel (not to mention movie
Agent Elrond ) dancing around as these
elves seem to do. And was it a mixed
sex elvish song and dance? Maybe
Arwen was showing that cute 10-year-old
Dunedan what dwarves and hobbits looked like.

[Raynor]

Is this the same Elrond we see in the LotR movies?!

An equally 'praising' description is given in Many meetings, FotR:

"The face of Elrond was ageless, neither old nor young, though in it was written the memory of many things both glad and sorrowful. His hair was dark as the shadows of twilight, and upon it was set a circlet of silver; his eyes were grey as a clear evening, and in them was a light like the light of stars. Venerable he seemed as a king crowned with many winters, and yet hale as a tried warrior in the fulness of his strength. He was the Lord of Rivendell and mighty among both Elves and Men."

Concerning the elves, even in A short cut to Mushrooms they are described by Sam as both merry and sad. [He could also be significantly influenced by irish image of the elves, as resulting from his several refferences in The unwritten chapters, HoME V, to the Irish story Tuatha de danaan, the children of the goddess Danu; the influence of english-elves is also apparent in his "time travel" tale, the Notion Club Papers, HoME IX, where the character Lowdham states that "I didn't mean elf in any debased post-Shakespearean sort of sense. Something far more potent and majestic."; the more "majestic" elves would be those of germanic/northern tales, the ones we find in LotR.] Anyway, in 1955 letter to W. Auden, Tolkien makes the following remarks regarding the Hobbit:

"It was unhappily really meant, as far as I was conscious, as a 'children's story', and as I had not learned sense then, and my children were not quite old enough to correct me, it has some of the sillinesses of manner caught unthinkingly from the kind of stuff I had had served to me, as Chaucer may catch a minstrel tag. I deeply regret them. So do intelligent children."

And a question: Elrond, as master of the house, is reffered to as "elf-friend" - shouldn't the title actually be "man-friend"? Was it a slip of a pen or did Tolkien weigh in his Mannish lineage?

[Lalwendë]

"Moon-letters are rune-letters, but you cannot see them,"said Elrond, "not when you look straight at them. They can only be seen when the moon shines behind them, and what is more, with the more cunning sort it must be a moon of the same shape and season as the day when they were written. The dwarves invented them and wrote them with silver pens, as your friends could tell you. These must have been written on a midsummer's eve in a crescent moon, a long while ago."

How annoying would moon-letters be?! Imagine you had a store of old Dwarven maps or other documents and you wanted to study what was written in them. If there were good moon-letters included then you would have to take a chance and hope that you chanced to look at that document during the right moon phase and on the right day of the year; if you hoped to undergo a systematic study to check if any documents included moon-letters then you'd have to get out all your Dwarven documents every night of the year and try them in the moonlight. How much more annoying if it happened to be a cloudy or rainy night!

I suppose that this is one of the more 'magical' aspects of The Hobbit, which does not bear up to the close scrutiny that a close reading might bring to the text.

Originally Posted by Raynor

And a question: Elrond, as master of the house, is reffered to as "elf-friend" - shouldn't the title actually be "man-friend"? Was it a slip of a pen or did Tolkien weigh in his Mannish lineage?

Good point! Why would Elrond be referred to as an 'elf-friend' if he was an Elf? Surely we could expect that he would be friends with lots of Elves, unless he was a bit like Eol, of course. It would be more appropriate to refer to a Man as an 'Elf-friend' (the name 'Alfred' means 'elf-friend').

He was as noble and as fair in face as an elf-lord, as strong as a warrior, as wise as a wizard, as venerable as a king of dwarves, and as kind as summer.

It was this description of Elrond that placed in my mind the image (which turns out to be incorrect) of him having a beard and grey hair. 'Noble' to me often signifies grey hair, as does 'venerable'. To use the simile "as wise as a wizard" immediately brings to mind facial hair, as we've just met Gandalf, who has a splendid beard. So of course, the image of Elrond has stayed with me and nothing I read to the contrary will shift it from the depths of my mind where it took root at a formative stage!

[Raynor]

if you hoped to undergo a systematic study to check if any documents included moon-letters then you'd have to get out all your Dwarven documents every night of the year and try them in the moonlight.

Well, I guess this is very much in tune with dwarven doors which are undetectable when shut, or the secret dwarven language which they teach to none. Suspicious kind, eh?

[Alchisiel]

I don't have a lot to say about this chapter "A Short Rest" so I will make my comments..... short. I do like the light heartedness of the elves in this chapter. The comment "Don't dip your beard in the foam father, it is long enough without watering it!" always makes me chuckle. But I have often wondered what Gandalf meant when he said, "Valleys have ears..." is he implying that there is danger lurking so close to Rivendell? What danger could be out there? The Nazgul?

[Raynor]

But I have often wondered what Gandalf meant when he said, "Valleys have ears..." is he implying that there is danger lurking so close to Rivendell? What danger could be out there? The Nazgul?

It is rather unlikely that he is talking about a nazgul; according to the Tale fo the Years, RotK, the nazgul remain quiet between 2063 and 2951.
He seems to be actually warning about some would be gossiping elves:

- Hush, hush! Good People! and good night! said Gandalf, who came last. Valleys have ears, and some elves have over merry tongues. Good night!

[Formendacil]

A short chapter, mostly filled with happy tidings, this chapter is one that nonetheless is a bit of a favourite for me, most likely because of its connections to the greater Legendarium.

Think about it. In this chapter we become acquainted with Elrond Halfelven- although at this stage he seems to be more emphasized as Elrond Half-Man, the son of Earendil, and an immediate link to the Silmarillion. Then we get the revelation of the true nature of Orcrist, Glamdring, and Sting- swords of Gondolin. And, to be quite serious, I really WOULD like the know the story of how those swords came from the fall of Gondolin to hands of the trolls. I've always been quite fascinated by the fact that Glamdring was "The King of Gondolin's Sword"- meaning that it belonged to Turgon. Who took it from his dead body?

On the same subject, who bore Orcrist? This sword seems to have been the partner of Glamdring- yet it is not marked out as the king's sword! Was it Tuor's? This seems unlikely, since Tuor bore an axe in the Book of Lost Tales (and from notes in Unfinished Tales, it seems that this remained Tolkien's idea). Was it Maeglin's sword? Maeglin seems like the only other of the Gondolindrim who would have been likely to bear the partner of the King's sword.

Finally, if Sting was in the same batch of weapons... was it also born by some high lord of Gondolin? There is no evidence that it was... but the fascinating possibility remains.

Another connection to the greater Legendarium that will bear major fruit in the Lord of the Rings is the mention of Durin- the father of the Longbeards. Really, from Thorin's brief description here we have the genesis of Appendix A III.

Not an action chapter, to be sure... but one that is fraught with ties to the greater world of Middle-Earth.

[Alchisiel]

Thanks Raynor I had forgotten my history.

[Raynor]

to be quite serious, I really WOULD like the know the story of how those swords came from the fall of Gondolin to hands of the trolls

Well, I for one find Elrond's explanation good enough :

- Whence did the trolls get them, I wonder? said Thorin looking at his sword with new interest.
- I could not say, said Elrond, but one may guess that your trolls had plundered other plunderers, or come on the remnants of old robberies in some hold in the mountains of the North. I have heard that there are still forgotten treasures of old to be found in the deserted caverns of the mines of Moria, since the dwarf and goblin war.

[Lalwendë]

Originally Posted by Formendacil

A short chapter, mostly filled with happy tidings, this chapter is one that nonetheless is a bit of a favourite for me, most likely because of its connections to the greater Legendarium.

Think about it. In this chapter we become acquainted with Elrond Halfelven- although at this stage he seems to be more emphasized as Elrond Half-Man, the son of Earendil

I agree, this chapter does link us in to the wider stories and history of Middle-earth.

I also get the sense when reading the Hobbit again that Rivendell is a truly important place in Middle-earth. Was it just me or did anyone else feel that the glories of Lothlorien somewhat overshadowed Rivendell in LotR? Yet Rivendell in many ways is much more important a place. It is home to Elrond who clearly has incredible powers, and is something of a seat of learning or knowledge. In both The Hobbit and in LotR we see people coming here and taking away great stores of useful information.

Rivendell is also a much more welcoming place than Lothlorien. This is possibly as it is located in a safer place, Galadriel's realm being closer to Mordor, but even though it is out of the way and quite difficult to find, it is still open to those who need to find it. Men, Dwarves and Hobbits are welcomed here - it is something of a strategic centre in Middle-earth, and a haven too.

Originally Posted by Formendacil

And, to be quite serious, I really WOULD like the know the story of how those swords came from the fall of Gondolin to hands of the trolls. I've always been quite fascinated by the fact that Glamdring was "The King of Gondolin's Sword"- meaning that it belonged to Turgon. Who took it from his dead body?

There all sorts of questions surrounding this! The sword must have been taken from Beleriand or else it would not have survived - so whichever Orcs took it, they did not take it back to Angband. Or was it Orcs who took it? How did the trolls get it, did they just find it or did they steal it? Trolls were creatures made by Melkor, so I would suppose that he would have had some in his army at Gondolin; are Trolls 'immortal'? If so, then they could even have been in possession of Glamdring for a very long time - or maybe they stole it from other trolls.

Gandalf must also have used it to fight the Balrog, which is interesting. If this Balrog was one of those involved in the downfall of Gondolin, then had it seen this same sword before, as wielded by Turgon? I wonder if this had any bearing on Gandalf's victory over the Barog. And what happened to Glamdring during Gandalf's 'death'?

[Bêthberry]

Originally Posted by Estelyn Telcontar

What do Elves smell like? Bilbo’s remark makes me wonder. We do find out how they rhyme – with a lot of nonsense! There have been past discussions on how to reconcile “Tra-la-la-lally” with “The Lay of Leithian”; this is your opportunity to share your opinions. We see them laughing – a huge contrast to the melancholy Elves of the Legendarium.

I'm very much inclined to think of this rhyme, which so clearly describes our adventurers' exact conditions at the time, as the elves having a bit of sport with Bilbo and dwarves. Why must we always think that art, song, music reflects the feelings of the authors? Why don't we consider that the artists might be thinking of the feelings of their audience and playing with that?

After all, Gandalf has told us he has sent news of their arrival ahead, so why wouldn't the elves be inclined to take a comic look at the brave lads who would fight dragons but who can't find a path in the forest?

Yes, I think this is it. Elves are very much so superior that they must find some kind of game or play on which to expend some of that intellectual and aesthetic energy. Not that they mean to be cruel or unkind, just that, well, they have all this excess energy in them and they must work it out some way and what better way than to create nonsense verse that puts their audience--Bilbo and the dwarves--in a perspective very much different from that which the adventurers themselves feel about themself?

Come to think of it, elves might make very excellent internet monkeys, as least these elves might. They are, after all, tricksome creatures of the perilous realm.

Originally Posted by Lal

Rivendell is also a much more welcoming place than Lothlorien. This is possibly as it is located in a safer place, Galadriel's realm being closer to Mordor, but even though it is out of the way and quite difficult to find, it is still open to those who need to find it. Men, Dwarves and Hobbits are welcomed here - it is something of a strategic centre in Middle-earth, and a haven too.

Hmm. I wonder, too, if the nature of the leader also has an influence in how these retreats are viewed? The authoritative male figure is seen as a supportive fatherly figure while the goddess figure is much more ambivalent?

[Lalwendë]

Originally Posted by Bethberry

Hmm. I wonder, too, if the nature of the leader also has an influence in how these retreats are viewed? The authoritative male figure is seen as a supportive fatherly figure while the goddess figure is much more ambivalent?

That's probably right, as we hear Elrond being referred to as "Kind as summer" whereas Galadriel's friends are accused of being "net-weavers and sorcerers". I wonder though how much of this is due to the respective leaders being male or female and how much is due to the degree to which these realms have 'retreated' from the mortal world?

It is only Rivendell which is not entirely perilous as far as Elven realms go, as Thranduil is also highly suspicious - maybe Rivendell is the only Elven realm in the history of Middle-earth which welcomes visitors in this way?

[Thinlómien]

Humans probably counted more on/appreciated Elrond because
1) The elves of Rivendell (and Grey Havens) had been allies with men, f.g. in the wars against Angband.
2) Rivendell was probably a more welcoming place than Lothlórien; in Rivendell everybody was welcomed and cared for whereas in Lothlórien you could be pierced by an arrow if you couldn't explain yourself and very few Men were let to enter the kingdom.
3) Elrond descended from Men as well from the Elves, so maybe the Men (subconsciously) felt some kind of connection to him.

[Raynor]

In general, there were great migrations from Estolad ("many thousands") to the realms of three houses of the noldor in Middle Earth, as told in Of the coming of Men into the West, Silmarillion - the reason being that the noldor saw hope in their great numbers in the war against Melkor. In particular, we know that Fingolfin, king of all the noldor, sent messages of welcome to them and Caranthir offer a part of his land and protection to the people of Haleth. For a good while, elves and men lived together in these realms - until the Firstborn realised that the Men need their own leaders and domains.

I believe they were most welcome in the land of Finrod Felagund, seeing that: he was the first to discover them; he often visited them before these great moves; he obtained from Thingol the permission for the people of Haleth to dwell in Brethil, (which Greymantle claimed as his own).

[The Squatter of Amon Rûdh]

the name 'Alfred' means 'elf-friend'

Actually Ælfred means 'Elf-counsel' (i.e. counselled by elves). The name you're thinking of is Ælfwine.

I think that it's possible to go too far in trying to tie in the Elves of The Hobbit with those of the Silmarillion and LotR. Had Tolkien realised that he would come to write a more serious and adult sequel, and had he realised that he would use the more Germanic elves of his Silmarillion legends in the later story, he would probably have written more serious-minded Elves for The Hobbit. However, in so doing he would probably have been compelled to write different parts for the Elves of Mirkwood, dropping the drunken gaoler, then possibly the barrel escape and the arrival at Lake-town. Although it can be disappointing to do so, sometimes we have to accept that this is a fictional story which has been cleverly but imperfectly grafted onto an older set of legends of which it was never fully intended to be a part. I am sure that Tolkien did regret later some of the less congruous touches, particularly once he realised the directions in which his sequel was developing. Nevertheless he did write them, and they reflect his early ideas concerning the proper content of children's stories. His total rejection of this thinking once The Hobbit had come out is one of the reasons why we have such a marked division between the nature of elves in his earlier and later published works. One of the reasons, since his interest in the developing legends of Middle-earth had clearly grown to such an extent by the time he sat down to write a sequel that he was unable to maintain a distinction between the Shire stories and the legends of Beleriand, and came to combine the two. This was unfortunate for The Hobbit since it transforms it from a charming and well-conceived children's story into an episode of the Matter of Arda, in which niche it does not sit at all comfortably.

I'm not sure that there's any significance in the difference between the perceptions of Elrond and Galadriel among the mortals of LotR. Elrond has clearly taken more of an interest in human affairs, particularly in his relations with the Northern Dúnedain, who are his main mortal contacts. The attitudes we see in LotR towards Galdriel are expressed by Rohirrim, who are separated from Rivendell by the Misty Mountains. If word had ever come to them of Imaldris, it would have seemed a myth after passing through so many mouths (after all it had become a legend in Gondor, where written records were kept that went back to Isildur's time). Also, being hidden in the wilderness, Elrond's people are less accessible to prying eyes and minds, and less likely to be the stuff of dark local legend; but Lórien is close enough to Rohan to be feared. Perhaps Celeborn and Galdriel were just unlucky to acquire such excitable neighbours.

[Lobelia]

While Squatter probably has it right about why the Elves of The Hobbit are so different from those of LOTR (spoilsport! ) I would like to think that they aren't entirely different, they just don't speak modern English. Remember that scene after supper in Rivendell where Bilbo recites his poem, much to the applause of the Elves? Whatever we think of their seriousness, Bilbo certainly seems to enjoy living there. For him, it's still the place to be if you want to eat, sleep, read or whatever. It's still a wonderful place to be, the very essence of hospitality and comfort, a break from the troubles of the outside world. The Elves of Lothlorien live a lot closer to the troubles and are, in general, a more serious bunch. But even here, there is a similar description of what it's like to be visiting Lorien, and Sam says that, among other things Galadriel is merry.

[mark12_30]

Originally Posted by Bêthberry

I'm very much inclined to think of this rhyme, which so clearly describes our adventurers' exact conditions at the time, as the elves having a bit of sport with Bilbo and dwarves. Why must we always think that art, song, music reflects the feelings of the authors? Why don't we consider that the artists might be thinking of the feelings of their audience and playing with that?

After all, Gandalf has told us he has sent news of their arrival ahead, so why wouldn't the elves be inclined to take a comic look at the brave lads who would fight dragons but who can't find a path in the forest?

...brilliant and funny. That will give me a chuckle throughout the day...

Tralalalally! Come back to the valley! Ha ha!

...how I wish I could. The midsummer dances of the Rivendell elves on the riverbank under the stars are one of the most magical moments for me in the entire legendarium.