The Hobbit - Chapter 02 - Roast Mutton

[Estelyn Telcontar]

The second chapter jumps right into the action! It begins in the familiar safety of Bilbo’s home, and within a short time the dwarves and Bilbo are in danger of losing their lives.

Bilbo’s feelings are a mixture of relief and disappointment when he sees that the dwarves have left his home. Apparently, politeness is important to hobbits, for again he is aggravated at not receiving thanks for his hospitality – unjustly so, as we find out later. ‘Second breakfast’ is mentioned as a meal, for those who want some Hobbit lore. The travel requisites mentioned also enrich our picture of everyday Hobbit life.

The adventure begins cheerfully, becomes uncomfortable, and then dangerous. The first of Gandalf’s mysterious disappearances occurs – deux ex machina just to give him the opportunity to rescue them in the nick of time? The story element of a seemingly welcoming fire that turns into a threatening situation is a familiar fairy tale device.

For the first time, Bilbo’s presence gives the dwarves a reason for going into a situation in a rather foolhardy manner, thinking him a skilled burglar. Does it seem odd to you that experienced and battle-hardened dwarves such as these should be so foolish as to get caught, and so cowardly as to push Bilbo ahead of themselves?

The trolls are a race also typical for fairy stories. Do they fit into Middle-earth? What do you think of the way they’re described, their language – and their names? What do you make of William’s sympathetic attitude toward Bilbo?

Then comes the passage that is the source for what has to be one of the coolest Tolkien nicknames there is – burrahobbit! Our member of that name used several quotes from these pages in his signature for a long time –

What’s a burrahobbit got to do with my pocket, anyways?

No burrahobbits, but lots of these here dwarves.

We read a nice play on words from Bilbo, about cooking better than he cooks. Then comes the trolls’ argument, with Gandalf’s help, and the dwarves are saved by the dawn’s early light. Some good comes of this adventure – food for their immediate needs, and gold to be recovered later. Three swords are also part of the spoils, and they will play an important part not only in this story, but in LotR as well.

The chapter ends, all’s well and Gandalf tells of a safe haven to which they look forward.

[Tuor in Gondolin]

An interesting question here is whether Tolkien should
have removed more of the non-Middle-earthish
language and items in TH and the narrator
asides to the reader. It's noted in the Annotated
Hobbit and in Letters that some of these were
removed/changed, but that (I believe) Tolkien
wished he had altered more.
One I'm of (perhaps somewhat like Gollum/Smeagol)
of two minds of is the trolls language. Should it have
been made more like orcs in LOTR?

The difference in dwarf mentality and
behavior is, of course, a clear delineation of
differences between TH and LOTR.
To some extent, Tolkien sought to
reconcile them in Unfinished Tales in the
chapter "The Quest of Erebor."

[Thinlómien]

This has always been one of my favourite chapters in The Hobbit. The trolls are just such nice folk.

Gandald shows his smartness once again and the problem starts because of Bilbo. This emphasizes well their roles at this part of the book.

[Alchisiel]

This is a favorite chapter of mine also. But I have to disagree with Thinlómien regarding that the fix they get in is entirely Bilbo's fault. I know that it was he that tried to pilfer something from the troll's pocket but it was Thorin and Company that grew impatient and didn't check things out before approaching. I know I would have!! I love the cunning of Gandalf in this chapter!! I can just see him lying among some rocks or in a bush near the trolls with one hand next to his mouth throwing his voice.

I don't know if the trolls fit in with Middle-Earth or not but I do enjoy this chapter so I'm inclined to say yes. I always thought that their names were rather common compared to names like Gandalf, Bilbo, Thorin and the like. I think I've actually dated a William or Tom in my day but I wish I hadn't. They seem to me crude, rough, not refined at all. What I get from William's attitude is that he would almost like to make Bilbo a pet.

The next time I'm grabbed by trolls I'll try to remember to keep them busy until the sun comes up as I am very like a hobbit-short, fat in the middle, but no hair on my feet!!

[Lalwendë]

I'm not altogether fond of this chapter because it still leaves me feeling slightly disturbed, even after all these years. Am I alone in finding it truly dark and disturbing?

It begins with Bilbo being rushed from his home against his will, he is bullied by the Dwarves into getting himself into a dangerous situation and ends with him having gone through torment by the trolls. What can be more disturbing than the very real threat od being eaten? The way that the trolls discuss how to cook the Dwarves is horrible, especially when they wonder whether to mince them. Ugh.

Something new about this passage struck me though. When they go to the Trolls' cave to see what they have there, they take away food. Are these the same trolls who have killed and eaten people? What kind of meat might they have stashed away in that cave? They certainly have the spoils they have taken from their victims, but I think I'd avoid the meat!
It reminds me of the gory and probably exaggerated tale of the Scottish cannibal family the Sawney Beans.

I did have to laugh that due to Bilbo's being rushed out of the house he forgot something very important, which Gandalf then brought along for him. His pipe.

[Estelyn Telcontar]

Lal, I'd guess that the chapter title gives us a clue as to the kind of meat the trolls had left over. After all, it was all they'd had during the past days:

Mutton yesterday, mutton today, and blimey, if it don't look like mutton again tomorrer...

[Formendacil]

Possibly my least favourite chapter in The Hobbit, "Roast Mutton" jarringly takes us from the familiar-feeling comforts of the Hobbit-hole, and deposits us squarely in a bleak adventure-land of rain, ruins, and Trolls...

Although I dislike this chapter in general, finding it somewhat disjointed in connection with the rest of the book- a transition from Bywater to Rivendell would feel a bit better, I can see its purpose as the first episode of Bilbo's life as a burglar, the humourous prelude that makes the first of his real adventures (with Gollum) seem plausible.

That said- and that probably disagreed with as well- this chapter is not without its redeeming qualities. Although the speech and names of the trolls are most jarring different from the style of the Lord of the Rings or the Silmarillion, I've always been able to pass this off in my mind as an "earlier conceit of the translator who later abandoned such attempts as a valid method of conveying the Third Age".

What's more, jarringly wrong though the trolls and their speech may be, it's got some of my favourite lines from The Hobbit:

"Mutton yesterday, mutton today, and blimey, if it don't look like mutton again tomorrer... "

Slightly modified, this is a VERY humourous line to think over when confronted with a situation of continuously boring food. World Youth Day and its obiquitous breakfasts come to mind:

"Warm milk and yogurt yesterday, warm milk and yogurt today, and blimey, if it don't look like warm milk and yogurt tomorrer..."

Now, if only there had been someone on hand who would have got it when I was thinking that...

Another classic line is, of course:

"A bur- a hobbit!"

"A Burrahobbit!"

"Burrahobbit" may have been Tolkien playing fun at the trolls' collective stupidity, but the very sound of the word- if a word it may be called- is rather enjoyable. Both the written look and the spoken sound are such that one can actually imagine Burrahobbits as a related species or a subspecies of Hobbit- perhaps an Australian kind. Of course, such a feeling on my part isn't too strange considering the profession of the good professor.

[Findegil]

Two question I will throw in concerning this chapter:

Just then all the others came round the corner of the road from the village. They were on Ponies, and each pony was slung about with all kinds of baggages, packages, parcels, and paraphernalia. ...

What do you make of this? What did the dwarves carry on that way beside their remarkable music-instruments? All this disappeared when the ponies were captured by the goblins in the Mistymountians, before anymore was told about it.

In this chapter we have also one of the points were Tolkien wished to harmonies TH and LotR but failed. He introduce the last bridge, but by doing so he made the pony jump into Mitheithel instead of Bruinen. Thus he created a heavy problem because Bilbo and company reached the troll-fire in not more than a couple of hours while Aragorn with Frodo and friends needed five days to reach the same place.
How is that riddle solved in your interpretation of Middle-Earth? Or did you never consider it at all? And on a greater scale: Bilbo and company needed about 38 days on ponies to reach Rivendell while Frodo and friends managed the same distance in only 28 days on their own feet. Where did the dwarves spend all the day?

Respectfully
Findegil

[Raynor]

There are some really funny moments in the chapter. The first would be the warning the dwarves leave in their note ("funeral expenses to be defrayed by us or our representatives, if occasion arises and the matter is not otherwise arranged for") - yet I don't think our hero has much time to ponder over it, since a most dialogue occurs between him and Gandalf:

- That leaves you just ten minutes. You will have to run, said Gandalf.
- But - said Bilbo.
- No time for it, said the wizard.
- But - said Bilbo again.
- No time for that either! Off you go!


An interesting remark occurs: "They have seldom even heard of the king round here"; however, considering the prologue of Lotr:

"There remained, of course, the ancient tradition concerning the high king at Fornost, or Norbury as they called it, away north of the Shire. But there had been no king for nearly a thousand years, and even the ruins of Kings' Norbury were covered with grass. Yet the Hobbits still said of wild folk and wicked things (such as trolls) that they had not heard of the king. For they attributed to the king of old all their essential laws; and usually they kept the laws of free will, because they were The Rules (as they said), both ancient and just."

we are bound to consider that the king is more of a figurative refference; Doug Anderson also notes that "the mention here of the king is probably not meant to refer to an actual personage but instead to invoke the idea of the king as the theoretical source of justice, law, and order".

The trolls are some most interesting newcomers; in Of the other races, Fotr, we learn that:

"Troll has been used to translate the Sindarin Torog. In their beginning far back in the twilight of the Elder Days, these were creatures of dull and lumpish nature and had no more language than beasts. But Sauron had made use of them, teaching them what little they could learn, and increasing their wits with wickedness. Trolls therefore took such language as they could master from the Orcs; and in the Westlands the Stone-trolls spoke a debased form of the Common Speech."

Tolkien expands more on the troll sujbect in his 1954 letter to Peter Hastings:

"I am not sure about Trolls. I think they are mere 'counterfeits', and hence (though here I am of course only using elements of old barbarous mythmaking that had no 'aware' metaphysic) they return to mere stone images when not in the dark. But there are other sorts of Trolls beside these rather ridiculous, if brutal, Stone-trolls, for which other origins are suggested. Of course (since inevitably my world is highly imperfect even on its own plane nor made wholly coherent - our Real World does not appear to be wholly coherent either; and I am actually not myself convinced that, though in every world on every plane all must ultimately be under the Will of God, even in ours there are not some 'tolerated' sub-creational counterfeits!) when you make Trolls speak you are giving them a power, which in our world (probably) connotes the possession of a 'soul'. But I do not agree (if you admit that fairy-story element) that my trolls show any sign of 'good', strictly and unsentimentally viewed. I do not say William felt pity - a word to me of moral and imaginative worth: it is the Pity of Bilbo and later Frodo that ultimately allows the Quest to be achieved - and I do not think he showed Pity. I might not (if The Hobbit had been more carefully written, and my world so much thought about 20 years ago) have used the expression 'poor little blighter', just as I should not have called the troll William. But I discerned no pity even then, and put in a plain caveat. Pity must restrain one from doing something immediately desirable and seemingly advantageous. There is no more 'pity' here than in a beast of prey yawning, or lazily patting a creature it could eat, but does not want to, since it is not hungry. Or indeed than there is in many of men's actions, whose real roots are in satiety, sloth, or a purely non-moral natural softness, though they may dignify them by 'pity's' name."

It is also noteworthy that in letter #25 he compares the vulgar trollery of calling Bilbo "nassty little rabbit" with the dwarven malice in calling him "descendant of rats" - in refference to his short hands and feet.

The way Gandalf deals with the trolls is in true observance of his mission directives as given in the Istari - to avoid open display of power. Concerning the opening of the treasure door, we see that it is also a hobbit (just as in FotR) that finds the key in. The sharing of the troll loot reminds me of an old proverb: "he may prepare for it, but the just shall put it on, and the innocent shall divide the silver".

Finnally, they cover up the treasure, using _magic_. I am lead to believe that dwarves themselves have magic abilities - in the first chapter, the song goes "the dwarves of yore made mighty spells, while hammers fell like ringing bells" - we also have the magic doors of Moria, to which even Celebrimbor testifies that they were made by the dwarves. If this is true, that it would set them apart from Men in this respect too [in letter #155, Tolkien notes that:

"Anyway, a difference in the use of 'magic' in this story is that it is not to be come by by 'lore' or spells; but is in an inherent power not possessed or attainable by Men as such. Aragorn's 'healing' might be regarded as 'magical', or at least a blend of magic with pharmacy and 'hypnotic' processes. But it is (in theory) reported by hobbits who have very little notions of philosophy and science; while Aragorn is not a pure 'Man', but at long remove one of the 'children of Luthien'."

Thus he created a heavy problem because Bilbo and company reached the troll-fire in not more than a couple of hours while Aragorn with Frodo and friends needed five days to reach the same place.

In the Annotated hobbit, Anderson makes a refference to an aborted attempt to revise the Hobbit, in which this "geographical" issue is dealt with.

[davem]

I might not (if The Hobbit had been more carefully written, and my world so much thought about 20 years ago) have used the expression 'poor little blighter', just as I should not have called the troll William. But I discerned no pity even then, and put in a plain caveat. Pity must restrain one from doing something immediately desirable and seemingly advantageous. There is no more 'pity' here than in a beast of prey yawning, or lazily patting a creature it could eat, but does not want to, since it is not hungry. Or indeed than there is in many of men's actions, whose real roots are in satiety, sloth, or a purely non-moral natural softness, though they may dignify them by 'pity's' name."

This is the Tolkien who could not leave well alone, unfortunately. The Trolls, with their display of 'pity' are perfect fairy story Trolls - they have feelings & a 'morality' of their own. Tolkien has brought into being a wonderful, magical world, on the borders of history & Faerie. Within that world it all works beautifullly, & if it contains internal inconsistencies, they are forgiveable.

Unfortunately Tolkien felt he had to alter TH, first to make it fit with LotR, & second in response to correspondents who challenged his Catholic credentials. To make it fit with LotR he removed some of the most quirky, odd & charming things in it. To make it fit with Catholicism he sat in judgement on it & condemned it (& himself for writing it as he did). He should have told Peter Hastings to go boil his head.

[Kath]

Agreed Lal, this is a dark chapter but what kept it from being disturbing to me were the little bits of humour that were interjected at moments where it could be seen that Bilbo was being bullied, or in danger, or unhappy.

The beginning of the chapter I loved, with Bilbo's mad dash and then the thing that most worries him is not that he'll be going on a dangerous adventure, but that he had forgotten his pocket handkerchief!

On the subject of the dwarves being cowardly in sending Bilbo forward first, they may have simply been trying to test him. I feel that had he refused they wouldn't have made him go. They gave him a safety measure as well so they would know when to rush in and help, it wasn't their fault Bilbo hadn't the slightest idea how to hoot like an owl!

I liked the way the trolls behave and speak. It's so different to the way every other character in the book speaks and it does make a show of the idea that they are just thugs with no brains. Anyway, it's a fun voice to do when reading aloud, which again is what was intended for The Hobbit.

More wonderful word play with burrahobbit and the whole cooking spiel. This book is such a pleasure to reread as you get older because you notice the genius behind things like that, which you just took as a normal sentence as a child.

And finally we get Gandalf's return and his tricking the trolls into bickering until the sun rises and they turn to stone. I always loved this bit because the fighting was, to me, realistic. It sounded almost like siblings arguing, constantly taking back what they'd said, or restarting the argument just for the sake of it.

This chapter is taking a myth or a legend and squashing it about a bit to fit it into Tolkien's version of myths and legends, which is perhaps why it seems a little out of place, or jarring. However, it does show that Bilbo has guts enough to go forward and try to be a good burglar, which gives credence to his becoming more and more confident as the journey continues.

And of course, without this little interruption, Bilbo would never have found Sting. Say what you like about The Hobbit not being part of the Legendarium, without it many important parts of LotR wouldn't have existed.

Just as an extra as well, Gandalf's exclamation at the beginning:
"Great Elephants!"

[Lhunardawen]

Call me weird - or worse - if you like, but I hardly found this chapter dark and dreary; rather I thought it was much more amusing than the previous one! For some reason I never took the threat to Bilbo's and the Dwarves' lives seriously. For the life of me, I can't comprehend how someone could be fearful of those trolls! Perhaps their language and the stupidity it conveyed were factors, as well as their names...or to be more frank I could just say that I've never been in the position they were in, anyway. But I'm getting ahead.

I guess that in this chapter we have already been spoiled that in the end, Bilbo will stay alive:

To the end of his days Bilbo could never remember how he found himself outside, without a hat, a walking-stick or any money, or anything that he usually took when he went out...(emphasis mine)

Another curious thing is that Bilbo didn't even try to resist Gandalf's goading. If he really wanted to stay home he could have told the wizard off. Perhaps Gandalf really had that much influence on him, or he was afraid of Gandalf, or deep inside he really wanted to go with the Dwarves...

(Just an aside, later on Gandalf was mentioned catching up with the company on a white horse. I'm not very familiar with pre-War of the Ring Third Age history, so will someone tell me if this horse could possibly be Shadowfax?)

If the third one's the case, apparently he had a change of mind as they went on their way and he had discovered how unpleasant adventures could be.

"Bother burgling and everything to do with it! I wish I was at home in my nice hole by the fire, with the kettle just beginning to sing!" It was not the last time that he wished that!

Unfortunately, it's too late for that. And aren't we thankful he couldn't go back even if he wanted to!

Originally Posted by Esty

For the first time, Bilbo’s presence gives the dwarves a reason for going into a situation in a rather foolhardy manner, thinking him a skilled burglar. Does it seem odd to you that experienced and battle-hardened dwarves such as these should be so foolish as to get caught, and so cowardly as to push Bilbo ahead of themselves?

My feeling is that they were still somehow doubtful of Bilbo, and here was the chance for him to prove himself. If not, well, it is still a rather appropriate job that they assigned to Burglar Bilbo. Apparently, as we'll find out afterwards, Bilbo felt that he should be doing something burglarious, as if he had accepted the fact that in this company he is a burglar.

Enough has been said about the trolls and Gandalf's cleverness, so I'll just have two more things to point out, one for each.

...for trolls, as you probably know, must be underground before dawn, or they go back to the stuff of the mountains they are made of, and never move again.

With this I sense as close to an account of the origin of trolls as we can get. Am I the only one in regret that more wasn't said of them?

And finally, I believe there's more profundity in this exchange than meets the eye:

"Where did you go to, if I may ask?" said Thorin to Gandalf as they rode along.
"To look ahead," said he.
"And what brought you back in the nick of time?"
"Looking behind," said he.

[Alphaelin]

I enjoy this chapter so much, but it's rather a guilty pleasure: Trolls with cockney (?) accents, named William, Bert and Tom...dwarves who come down with temporary insanity and unhesitatingly walk right up to a strange fire without looking, one right after another...very 'un-canonic' and out of character. I laugh every time. Mind, I've been told I have a warped sense of humor.

'Roast Mutton' has several of my favorite lines in it, too. First and foremost, the excellent exclamation, "Great Elephants!" And of course, the trolls whining about 'mutton yesterday, today and tomorrer' and "Burrahobbit". I like William's complaint to the ungrateful Tom & Bert, too:

"Yer can't expect folk to stop here for ever just to be et by you and Bert. You've et a village and a half between yer, since we come down from the mountains."

Ah, the irony of a troll berating his fellows for their greed.

On a more literary note, we have the first occasions of LOTR and The Silmarillion "peeking over the horizion" in this chapter:

Now they had gone on far into the Lone-lands, where there were no people left, no inns, and roads grew steadily worse. Not far ahead were dreary hills, rising higher and higher, dark with trees. On some of them were old castles with an evil look, as if they had been built by wicked people.

If I understand their route correctly, they are traveling among the Weather Hills, perhaps even passing by Weathertop.

The morning after their encounter with the trolls, they find their hoard:

...--and among them were several swords of various makes, shapes, and sizes. Two caught their eyes particularly, because of their beautiful scabbards and jeweled hilts.

Gandalf and Thorin each took one of these; and Bilbo took a knife in a leather sheath. It would have made only a tiny pocket knife for a troll, but it was as good as a short sword for the hobbit.

"These look like good blades," said the wizard, have drawing them and looking at them curiously. "They were not made by any troll, nor by any smith among men in these parts and days..."

"Far vistas". I love them so.

[Estelyn Telcontar]

Tolkien's own artwork on this chapter may or may not be identical with your own images; what do you think of his drawing?

[Kath]

Ah I have that one. I love the smoke from the fire curling upwards like that, and the shadows of the trolls in the trees.

To be honest though I sit and stare at pictures like that and just jealousy wish I could draw half so well

[JennyHallu]

I like the picture, but I never really thought the picture showed the trolls as any sort of threat. They are large, grotesque...they would barely be able to fit in the spaces between the trees to chase Bilbo and the Dwarves, were their confrontation to come to that. It makes me wonder if the Dwarves, in order to get captured, had cheerfully walked into the bags themselves (singing a Disneyesque "Heigh Ho" while little birds and forest animals frolicked around them).

[davem]

Gandalf's Wand!

This is one of the few (the only?) pictures of Gandalf 'in action' by Tolkien.

Its not too easy to make out here, but he seems to have a wand, as opposed to a staff, going by the way he's holding the thing. He's clearly grasping it by the end, & its simply not long enough to be a staff. Yet its clearly stated in Ch1 of TH that Gandalf had a staff.

Does this illustration show the 'official' method of using a staff? Did Gandalf also have a wand concealed under his cloak, or did Tolkien just forget himself for a moment?

The other interesting question is what exactly Gandalf is using the wand/staff for at that point? Is he 'helping' the effect of the sun on the trolls, is he showing Arien exactly where the trolls are, so she can focus her powers on them, or what?

What we seem to have is the only illustration of Gandalf doing magic, at a time when he doesn't actually need to do anything at all....

(I particularly like the 'Doh!!!' look on the middle troll's face, btw)

[Estelyn Telcontar]

Could you please provide a link address/URL for that picture, davem? The site doesn't allow hotlinking, so we can't see it.

[davem]

This should work http://www.tolkienist.de/bilder/bild...ls_cd_jrrt.jpg

[JennyHallu]

The trolls don't seem to be wearing any clothes, either, which would make picking their pockets an even less enjoyable experience. Did Tolkien make his illustrations before or after he wrote the chapter?

[deal_with_it]

Originally Posted by Lalwendë

I'm not altogether fond of this chapter because it still leaves me feeling slightly disturbed, even after all these years. Am I alone in finding it truly dark and disturbing?

It begins with Bilbo being rushed from his home against his will, he is bullied by the Dwarves into getting himself into a dangerous situation and ends with him having gone through torment by the trolls. What can be more disturbing than the very real threat od being eaten? The way that the trolls discuss how to cook the Dwarves is horrible, especially when they wonder whether to mince them. Ugh.

Something new about this passage struck me though. When they go to the Trolls' cave to see what they have there, they take away food. Are these the same trolls who have killed and eaten people? What kind of meat might they have stashed away in that cave? They certainly have the spoils they have taken from their victims, but I think I'd avoid the meat!
It reminds me of the gory and probably exaggerated tale of the Scottish cannibal family the Sawney Beans.

I did have to laugh that due to Bilbo's being rushed out of the house he forgot something very important, which Gandalf then brought along for him. His pipe.

What I always remembered about this chpater was how Thorin orders his dwarves to bury the treasure to fetch upon their return. Well, they don't return, so is the treasure still buried there? Or does someone collect it that we aren't aware of?

I thought the whole point of the Quest was to regain Erebor. Why WOULD they return?

Lastly, why didn't they stay over in Bree rather than camp out in the Wilds? Or were they well passed Bree by this point?

[deal_with_it]

Originally Posted by JennyHallu

I like the picture, but I never really thought the picture showed the trolls as any sort of threat. They are large, grotesque...they would barely be able to fit in the spaces between the trees to chase Bilbo and the Dwarves, were their confrontation to come to that. It makes me wonder if the Dwarves, in order to get captured, had cheerfully walked into the bags themselves (singing a Disneyesque "Heigh Ho" while little birds and forest animals frolicked around them).

I was slightly disappointed in the Dwarves in the Hobbit. The typical Dwarf we've all come to know and love goes down fighting with a curse on his breath. These dwarves were pretty wimpy and and inexperiencd thief with a magic ring had to keep saving them. Kinda sad. I mean 13 dwarves. Hand em some weapons and chain mail and that would be an awesome front line to have in any AD&D party. But these guys...wow. Good thing they had the chubby thief with no adventuring experience along. lol