The Hobbit - Chapter 01 - An Unexpected Party

[Estelyn Telcontar]

The first line of this book must be the most famous, even legendary, sentence in all of Tolkien's writing.

In a hole in the ground there lived a hobbit.

Who doesn't know it by heart?! Who hasn't read of its origin, scribbled on a blank page of an exam paper that JRRT was correcting? And who, way back then, could have predicted what would become of that small beginning?!

Middle-earth already existed, but the invention of Hobbits is what paved the way for Tolkien's masterpiece, The Lord of the Rings. This story also paved the way to Middle-earth for many readers, especially those who read it early in their childhood. When did you first read The Hobbit? How did it affect you and what did it mean to you?

The description of a hobbit hole and of hobbits themselves is a delightful beginning, as is the introduction to Bilbo. But the adventure begins with Gandalf - quite appropriately it's said that "adventures sprouted up all over the place wherever he went". The dialogue between Bilbo and Gandalf is amusing, full of little plays with and on words.

Then come the Dwarves - unbidden and unwanted by the unwilling hero of the story. They invade his home, eat his food, and take up his time. They also awake his slumbering Tookishness. Reluctantly, he even considers going with them, at least until his prosaic side wins out again.

Bits and pieces of information are scattered throughout this chapter, on Dwarves, dragons, the Necromancer, and the Wizard Gandalf. Which do you find most interesting or helpful?

We have differing styles of speech, with Thorin's officious style, Gandalf's humorous, sometimes slightly cryptic utterances, and the Dwarves, who have some similarities with Hobbits - in their greeting formulas, for example.

We also have two Dwarven poems in this chapter, one humorous one: "Chip the glasses", and one 'historic' song: "Far over the misty mountains cold". How do they affect you?

Tolkien's style of writing in The Hobbit is different from LotR. The main reason is obvious - it's a children's book. I find it very oral in style, and have read quite a bit of it aloud, to others or to myself, with great pleasure. However, we know from his essay "On Fairy Stories" that he later changed his mind about the style he used, feeling that it was not right to talk "down" to children in the narrative voice as occurs here occasionally. Does this change in style bother you? Do you still enjoy reading the book though you are no longer a child?

The chapter takes place in one day, beginning with a "Good morning!" and ending with uncomfortable dreams. The last sentence takes Bilbo and the reader into the next morning, with the expectancy of what will happen.

I hope you'll join in this adventure and discuss The Hobbit with us! Every contribution is welcome!

[Kuruharan]

The dwarven song about the fall of the Mountain is one of my favorites (shockingly enough).

It is interesting that Tolkien uses the same method here as elsewhere in showing the underlying depth of his world. He gives us small glimpses of it without explaining them. I still wonder why I find it so effective when he does it but so annoying when some other authors use this technique.

[Lalwendë]

First of all, which editions are people reading for this? I like to picture what everybody is reading; I am using this edition, much battered, but well-loved.

The door opened on to a tube-shaped hall like a tunnel: a very comfortable tunnel without smoke, with panelled walls, and floors tiled and carpeted, provided with polished chairs, and lots and lots of pegs for hats and coats - the hobbit was fond of visitors. The tunnel wound on and on, going fairly but not quite straight into the side of the hill - The Hill, as all the people for many miles round called it - and many little round doors opened out of it, first on one side and then on another. No going upstairs for the hobbit: bedrooms, bathrooms, cellars, pantries (lots of these), wardrobes (he had whole rooms devoted to clothes), kitchens, diningrooms, all were on the same floor, and indeed on the same passage. The best rooms were all on the left-hand side (going in), for these were the only ones to have windows, deep-set round windows looking over his garden and meadows beyond, sloping down to the river.

Reading this chapter now, I was immediately taken with the descriptions of Bag End and of Bilbo's lifestyle. This Hobbit hole is a bungalow! British readers will all know that bungalows are something of a symbol of comfortable suburban life, and what's more, he lives in what seems to be a between the wars period bungalow - complete with tiled hallway covered by carpet and lots of hat pegs. Bag End even has rooms 'for best'. Looking at Bag End this way, only one point sticks out as odd, Bilbo's wardrobes; this could pinpoint him as having secretive dandyish tendencies...

The first conversation between Bilbo and Gandalf is also very amusing and I think again places Bilbo as similar to a very particular type of English person. He is most polite and congenial with this stranger, he even ignores Gandalf's slightly sarcastic rumination on the meaning of "good morning", but as soon as Gandalf mentions something he does not approve of, he beings to act dismissively:

"I should think so in these parts! We are plain quiet folk and have no use for adventures. Nasty disturbing uncomfortable things! Make you late for dinner! I can't think what anybody sees in them," said our Mr. Baggins, and stuck one thumb behind his braces, and blew out another even bigger smoke-ring. Then he took out his morning letters, and began to read, pretending to take no more notice of the old man. He had decided that he was not quite his sort, and wanted him to go away.

But the old man did not move. He stood leaning on his stick and gazing at the hobbit without saying anything, till Bilbo got quite uncomfortable and even a little cross.

"Good morning!"he said at last. "We don't want any adventures here, thank you! You might try over The Hill or across The Water."By this he meant that the conversation was at an end.

"What a lot of things you do use Good morning for!"said Gandalf. "Now you mean that you want to get rid of me, and that it won't be good till I move off."
"Not at all, not at all, my dear sir! Let me see, I don't think I know your name?"

But Gandalf can see right through his act, and instead of simply moving on, as a Hobbit might, put in his place by Bilbo's dismissive manner, Gandalf continues to talk. I wonder if he does know how to react against Bilbo's behaviour or if Gandalf simply does not know the subtleties of the social code in The Shire? I like to think it is the former, as he immediately has an effect on Bilbo's sense of embarrassment, and so gets a foothold.

The whole chapter is something of a struggle between Bilbo's sense of reserve and wanting to appear polite. He allows Gandalf and the Dwarves into his life due to his wanting to appear polite and not to simply say "no, clear off" - it reminds me of when we cross someone in the street and both people seem to do a little dance trying to step aside, all the while apologising.

Bilbo's agreeing to go on this adventure is eventually brought about partly by appealing to a hidden sense of adventure, that we do know, but I think this is also brought on by his indignance at being thought of as foolish. Tolkien uses a nice phrase for this:

this is what he called being on his dignity

There's a lot to pick up on in this chapter! I wholly disagree when it is said that The Hobbit has not got depth! Aside from the wonderful way it is written and the characters are introduced so cleverly, there are many intriguing sections in this chapter. Gandalf knew the Old Took (why?), he has taken many Hobbit 'lads and lasses' on adventures, what was Gandalf doing in Dol Guldur? I could go on, but the point is, there are plenty of references to a bigger world here.

The structure is interesting too. I don't know if this is in every edition, but mine begins with a one page foreword; this is mainly about the Runes, and it sets them up as a kind of 'puzzle'. This can be solved once you read on and find out what each rune corresponds to; very tricksy, as once you have read on a little further you may very well be hooked.

[Hookbill the Goomba]

The Hobbit. Even if you don't think it completely fits in with the rest of Middle Earth, its still a fantastic read.
Something that has struck me about 'The Hobbit' especially the opening is the use of Faërie. After reading 'On Fairy tales' by Tolkien, he speaks of Faërie as being a (perilous) realm that is not of this earth. Within the first few pages there is a sense of Faërie and even a mention of it.

It was often said (in other families) that long ago one of the Took ancestors must have taken a Fairy wife.

Many have remarked that The Lord of the Rings and Middle Earth is Tolkien's attempt at a mythology for England. I would disagree; I would say that it (The Hobbit in any case) is his attempt at a new Fairy tale. Being frustrated with the modern view of fairies as small creatures that hide in flowers, he wanted to bring back the true perilous realm of Faërie. The Hobbit is where he begins this ambition, yet it seems that the tale ran away with him and became entangled in his already established (in his mind) Middle Earth.

There are other mentions of Faërie things, such as Gandalf's gift to the Old Took:

... a pair of magic diamond studs that fastened themselves and never came undone till ordered?

Although, I am often thrown by Gandalf's use of the phrase, "Very amusing for me" when describing sending Bilbo on this Adventure. I always saw it as Tolkien trying to show a malicious side to Gandalf, that he wasn't all good.
Any thoughts?

EDIT: I'm using the 1995 hardback edition. Cover illustration by Tolkien himself.

[Aiwendil]

Lalwende wrote:

This Hobbit hole is a bungalow! British readers will all know that bungalows are something of a symbol of comfortable suburban life, and what's more, he lives in what seems to be a between the wars period bungalow - complete with tiled hallway covered by carpet and lots of hat pegs.

Indeed, the whole portrayal of Hobbiton in this chapter is strikingly modern, even bourgeois. This is something that is present to some extent in LotR as well, but it is much more obvious here. The beginning of The Hobbit is largely about a meeting between the, comfortable, well-fed, upper middle-class of modern England and the darker, medieval world of Germanic mythology. Shippey discusses this in Author of the Century, and I think I agree with him that a large part of what The Hobbit does is to show (over the course of the whole book) that the modern English are not really so far removed from the world of wizards, Dwarves, and dragons.

[Kath]

Having just flicked through the first chapter now, I came across something that I remember loving when I was younger, and that's the way that Tolkien writes it to be read. It's as if he is creating it for an audience that is there with him, who can interrupt and question him and who he has to keep the suspense for.

This is a story of how a Baggins had an adventure, and found himself doing and saying things altogether unexpected. he may have lost the neighbour's respect, but he gained - well, you will see whether he gained anything in the end.

The mother of our particular hobbit - what is a hobbit? I suppose hobbits need some description nowadays, since they have become rare and shy of the Big People, as they call us.

It feels like you as a reader are directly involved in the story from the very beginning, and all the description pulls you in, so you feel that you are really there. It also feels personalised thanks to the continued use of the word 'you'.

I love the conversation between Bilbo and Gandalf at the beginning as well with the variations on ‘Good morning’ and poor Bilbo being so confused.

As for talking down to children, I don't believe it does. The sheer amount of description in it takes a lot of concentration and understanding. I wonder if it's just that everything is slightly happier. As in the Elves being jolly rather than ethereal and Gandalf having very little in the way of a deeper/darker side.

Although, I am often thrown by Gandalf's use of the phrase, "Very amusing for me" when describing sending Bilbo on this Adventure. I always saw it as Tolkien trying to show a malicious side to Gandalf, that he wasn't all good.
Any thoughts?

I don't know that it's malicious exactly. More like he knew that Bilbo was going to be ok, that he'd manage to get through everything that was thrown at him, and it was more the way that Bilbo approached these tasks that he found amusing.

[Essex]

I've got the 1991 version of the 'original' (amongst other battered paperback versions) - ie tolkien's cover and colour pictures inside.

I first was forced to read the Hobbit in school when I was around 11. I HATED being told what to read so rebelled against it. I remember the first line, the spiders and bilbo's journey in the barrel from that first read. It was a few years until I read it agin, and that was because I had got into LOTR.

The other thing I remember is us discusssing Gandalf - oh there he goes s**ding off again! Little did I know what he was up to............. (now wouldn't THAT work well in a hobbit movie - the White Council - with flashbacks to his trips to Dol Guldur too?)

Oh yes, and 11 year olds Essex lads being able to say in classroom - 'I don't give a toss' as Gandalf says and then laughing our heads off! Priceless!

[davem]

As we're discussing The Hobbit I thought you might be interested in this film clip of Tolkien talking about writing it you'll need RealPlayer (just click 'Play Video: at the top of the page

http://uk.search.yahoo.com/video/vie...47&pld=780x515

[Tuor in Gondolin]

I recommend the "Annotated Hobbit".
Not just for the notes and commentaries
on Tolkien revisions but also for the
illustrations of scenes and peoples in TH
by various countries' illustrators.

I'm not sure, I'll check, but I think it's Shippey,
who observes and analyses how Bilbo
and his world begins as a bourgouis
person and world, becomes fairytale
adventure and then returns to a middle class
world, especially by the language and allusions Bilbo uses.

[Estelyn Telcontar]

Here are a few random personal thoughts on this chapter:

If ever a sentence has cried out for a fan fiction (or RPG), it is this one:

...the fabulous Belladonna Took, one of the three remarkable daughters of the Old Took...

Wouldn't you just love to meet Bilbo's mother (at least in her younger days)? Of course, add to that the following one about the 'fairy wife' of a Took ancestor; I know of at least one well-written fan fiction on that notion (by mark12_30).

Other sentences or phrases that I find wonderful to read:

...one morning long ago in the quiet of the world, where there was less noise and more green...

...warriors are busy fighting one another in distant lands, and in this neighbourhood heroes are scarce...

The explanation did not seem to explain. [This sentence is one I want to use when hearing politicians and officials speak!]

[Child of the 7th Age]

Tuor -

I'm also using the Annotated Hobbit (the modern one published in 2002). Also like you, I am enamored of the illustrations. I especially like the fact that the drawings come from editions of the Hobbit that have been published in different countries. It's the only source I know that does this.

Esty -

I'm glad that you mentioned Belladonna Took. It's always struck me as a little odd that Belladonna figures so prominently in the first chapter, if only by name, but that she is the only female explicitly mentioned in the entire book. We don't even have a character like Shelob, let alone a Galadriel or an Arwen! (If someone else can cite another female character in The Hobbit, please let me know.) Maybe this is simply because his listeners were his sons John and Michael rather than anything more than that? Younger sister Priscilla was apparently too young to join the group.

I love how Tolkien uses the parents to set up the two different sides of Bilbo's personality: the staid Baggins type and the adventurious Tooks. How intriguing that Tolkien suggests a possible tie-in between the Tooks and the fairies (presumably the Elves). Even in the 1937 edition, long before LotR or Frodo was a glimmer in the eyes of the author, JRRT mentions the local belief that the Tooks may have had an ancestor who married into a fairy family. I think he picks up on this idea again in the beginning of LotR when he talks about the differences between Harfoot, Fallohides, and Stoors. The Fallohides look and act a bit like miniature Elves!

Why does Tolkien throw open the possibility of a fairy/hobbit union? Is the physical and personality resemblance of the Tooks completely a coincidence, or could there actually have been a union between a Took and an Elf back in the old days when Hobbits were still wandering about Middle-earth before their settlement in the Shire? There have been plenty of fanfictions which are built on the latter premise, and I know it's been discussed in the Books section before. I doubt the latter idea seriously crossed Tolkien's mind when he was writing down the text of The Hobbit, but could he have remembered the possibility later on when he composed LotR and went on to discuss such things as "the light in Frodo's eyes"?

As you can see from this post, I am very guilty of one thing. I find it almost impossible to read The Hobbit on its own. When I first read this book, I was about 13 years old and had not yet read LotR. (The Ballentine edition hadn't even come out then, so very few people in the U.S. knew anything about Sauron or Frodo.) At that time, I was able to read The Hobbit on its own, appreciating it for what it is and not asking that it be anything more. Now I keep remembering things In LotR or in Unfinished Tales, and demanding to know why Tolkien changed this, or how something in The Hobbit foreshadows something else in LotR. In a way that's too bad, since I've lost the immediacy of the text. Plus, at first, I felt fairly guilty about this way of approaching things. Surely, the author wouldn't want us to read his book "backwards", which is sort of what I am doing.

But then I remembered what happened to Tolkien when he told the story: the characters from the wider Legendarium kept knocking on the door and inserting themselves into his children's story. I guess life is like that. You can't compartmentalize things you've experienced or thought about: they all run together and influence each other!

I know Davem has mentioned that he views The Hobbit as outside Tolkien's Legendarium. His statement struck me. I suppose that could be so, depending on how you define "Legendarium". But my gut feeling is that it's difficult to exclude the Hobbit from this wider body of writings. The story is just too important in how it set up the main characters and the story line for LotR. Frankly. I have an easier time including The Hobbit as part of the Legendarium than I do some of the earliest material in The Book of Lost Tales, which seems to be radically different than the later writings by Tolkien. I can't think about Bilbo in The Hobbit without considering what was to happen to him later. Maybe that's right or wrong but it's a given I can not change.

[Estelyn Telcontar]

We discussed the background for Belladonna's name on this thread, so I won't go into that here.

I found it interesting to look up her sisters' names on the family tree, since they are not mentioned elsewhere: Donnamira and Mirabella. That is a chain of syllables, and each sister shares half of her name with each of the others. However, that is not really relevant to this chapter...

[Tuor of Gondolin]

If ever a sentence has cried out for a fan fiction (or RPG), it is this one:

Quote:
...the fabulous Belladonna Took, one of the three remarkable daughters of the Old Took...
Wouldn't you just love to meet Bilbo's mother (at least in her younger days)? Of course, add to that the following one about the 'fairy wife' of a Took ancestor; I know of at least one well-written fan fiction on that notion (by mark12_30).

On the one hand the saga of the Took daughters would
have made a great read, pity JRRT didn't get around
to it (perhaps with the lifespan of an elf he might have).
On the other hand, it's an example of his use of barely
glimpsed vistas to give depth to his tales (as he alludes
to in "Letters"). It's one of the parts of his writings that
makes them so much more real then, say, Isaac Asimov's
Foundation trilogy, which just doesn't have that "historic/mythic"
feel to it.

And what did the Took girls do that made them so remarkable?
Imagine the mother/father debates of Bilbo's parents when
he evinced his tookish adventurous side.

[davem]

No, I'm not going back on what I said & joining in as a regular - just popping my head round the door...

Originally Posted by Child

I know Davem has mentioned that he views The Hobbit as outside Tolkien's Legendarium. His statement struck me. I suppose that could be so, depending on how you define "Legendarium". But my gut feeling is that it's difficult to exclude the Hobbit from this wider body of writings. The story is just too important in how it set up the main characters and the story line for LotR. Frankly. I have an easier time including The Hobbit as part of the Legendarium than I do some of the earliest material in The Book of Lost Tales, which seems to be radically different than the later writings by Tolkien. I can't think about Bilbo in The Hobbit without considering what was to happen to him later. Maybe that's right or wrong but it's a given I can not change.

Now I keep remembering things In LotR or in Unfinished Tales, and demanding to know why Tolkien changed this, or how something in The Hobbit foreshadows something else in LotR. In a way that's too bad, since I've lost the immediacy of the text.

And that's the problem I have with including TH in the Legendarium. I wish Tolkien had left it as it was - with the original Riddles in the Dark chapter, the references to Policemen & Tinkers, et al.

Of course, Bilbo's story is referred to in LotR (& The Quest of Erebor), so it is part of the Legendarium. This version of it, however, should be kept to one side as a children's story, a kind of 'Fantasia' on Middle-earth, an introduction if you like - imo, of course.

The line Esty quotes: 'One morning long ago in the quiet of the world, where there was less noise and more green..' is so evocative (as is the reference to 'the wild were-worms in the Last Desert), that the 'Tookish' part of me wants to run off & see Mountains!

I love getting lost in the world of TH but I think its overshadowed by LotR & The Sil if you include it in with them & that simple sense of wonder it inspires can disappear if you're trying to force it to fit. So, for me LotR & the Sil are the 'true' account of events in Middle-earth, while TH is a version of it that has passed down through various hands, minds & voices. In many ways its more magical than the Legendarium because of the unexplained vistas. The borders of the story of TH could open up onto any landscape - its only LotR that 'fixes' it in a particular place & time & removes it from the world of fairy story & takes it up into the realm of high myth - which, for me, is a place it doesn't belong.

Anyway.....

[Formendacil]

I can only disagree with Davem regarding The Hobbit's inclusion in the Legendarium, the lines Aragorn says regarding green grass as a part of legend springing to mind for some reason.

But this thread is not devoted to Davem's inclusion of The Hobbit in the Legendarium, but about Chapter 1 of The Hobbit.

For me, this is where it all began, something like eight years ago, when in a fit of boredom, I went browsing through my dad's bookshelves, and discovered The Hobbit. I knew the title thanks to C.S. Lewis (having been a Narnia fan), and on the strength of that tenuous connection, I pulled down the book with a lovely dragon and horde on the front, and began to read:

"In a hole in the ground there lived a hobbit..."

So this chapter was my very first introduction to the works of J.R.R. Tolkien, and it sucked me right in, with its charming feeling of "real" world, but a real world in which Dwarves coming to visit, while not exactly normal, was not the life-shaking event that it would be if it ever happened here.

Although, of course, we soon learn that it DOES, in fact, shake poor Bilbo's life up far more than he expected.

There is an element of the traditional children's story in the repetitiveness of the arrival of the Dwarves, that familiar feeling of "here we go again". And one has to wonder, from within the context of the Legendarium, precisely why the Dwarves arrived by twos and threes, the answer (I believe) from Unfinished Tales being that Gandalf didn't want to shock Bilbo all at once.

The descriptions of food in this chapter tend to set me salivating- getting in touch with my Hobbit side, so to speak. In fact, between this and Narnia, I early on got into the habit of eating when reading, a habit that would be best broken, but doesn't seem likely to happen...

"Far over the misty mountains cold,
through dungeons deep and caverns old,
we must away ere break of day,
to sake the pale, forgotten gold."

This whole Dwarf-song, which I cannot remember in completion, is one of my favourite pieces of verse in Tolkien's work, possibly because it's the first one I encountered, but also because of the way it is incorporated into the story. Like Bilbo, I feel drawn away to a long-lost dwarfen kingdom, seeing it again in its forgotten splendour...

And like Bilbo, when I reach the end of this first chapter, I'm somewhat tired at the "cacophony" of events that have torrentially arrived in the space of a chapter, and leave with the feeling that surely it will calm down somewhat soon.

[Lalwendë]

Originally Posted by davem

I love getting lost in the world of TH but I think its overshadowed by LotR & The Sil if you include it in with them & that simple sense of wonder it inspires can disappear if you're trying to force it to fit. So, for me LotR & the Sil are the 'true' account of events in Middle-earth, while TH is a version of it that has passed down through various hands, minds & voices. In many ways its more magical than the Legendarium because of the unexplained vistas. The borders of the story of TH could open up onto any landscape - its only LotR that 'fixes' it in a particular place & time & removes it from the world of fairy story & takes it up into the realm of high myth - which, for me, is a place it doesn't belong.

Anyway.....

Well, I'll stir up a little more argument (which shall continue after I've logged off no doubt and end up in "nurrr nurrr" style chidings ) about TH in the legendarium. I think it does 'fit' as it is simply another account of Middle-earth, one from a different perspective; different peoples in our own world have different views of it, and in that respect, Tolkien's providing us with three main different views of Middle-earth only serves to give the whole legendarium more depth to me. I'm also not so sure that LotR itself is without 'unexplained vistas' - that's part of the appeal. All of Tolkien's work is filled with 'unexplained vistas', I think this may be part of its appeal and what keeps drawing us back, the hope we'll find something new (and I usually do).

I recommend the Annotated Hobbit. I've been looking at it this evening, and there are some really interesting notes. One concerned the choice of 'Baggins', which has always struck me as similar to the word 'baggin' - meaning a workman's lunch. Apparently in the OED 'baggin' is listed as 'bagging'; Shippey ppointed out that Tolkien knew that this was an incorrect spelling according to the people who actually used the word, as it's a dialect word from the north. Tolkien was a member of the Yorkshire Dialect Society (which I did not know!) and so knew that the correct term was 'baggin' and used it as the name for a food-loving Hobbit.

the other note which interested me was that a Bullroarer is a slither of wood on the end of a string which when whirled round the head makes a horrendous noise; apparently children used to like to play with them. I liked this, as I've always pictured Bullroarer as a loud and slightly obnoxious (but not in a bad way) Hobbit. It has also made me want to make a Bullroarer and see just how loud and horrible they really do sound.

[Alchisiel]

What a coincidence that a chapter by chapter read of The Hobbit has just started as I have just started reading it myself. Instead of getting into whether or not The Hobbit should be included in the Legendarium I will answer Estelyn's questions in her first post.

When did you first read The Hobbit? How did it affect you and what did it mean to you?

I first read The Hobbit roughly three years ago I'm afraid. I was 29 years old. I wasn't even aware that the books existed until The Fellowship of the Ring movie came out. I learned that the books existed when a co-worker of mine told me about them. Of course I went out right away and bought The Hobbit and began to read becoming quite hooked on Middle Earth. Having read it around the time of September 11th, it became the epitome of a good vs. evil story to me.

Bits and pieces of information are scattered throughout this chapter, on Dwarves, dragons, the Necromancer, and the Wizard Gandalf. Which do you find most interesting or helpful?

The information about the dwarves and dragons were important to the story but it was the information about Gandalf's adventures and the pieces of information about the Necromancer that left me wanting to find out more. I think Tolkien does this intentionally and does this very well. I'm even going to go out on a limb and compare it to the television show Lost. Every week the show answers questions you want to know but it also leaves you with more questions at the same time. Tolkien does this as well, such as Tom Bombadil, Belladonna Took and her sisters, the Old Took, etc.

[Thinlómien]

As many others here, I've fallen in love with the dwarves' song. It just sounds so beautiful. I first became familiar with it in Finnish, and it's one of the best poem/song translations in Finnish. I remember listening to my father reading the poem aloud and how magical it sounded. I could almost hear the chilly wind on the mountains and see the dark caves. The song full of promise of distant lands and places, yet dangerous. I think that it , better than any other thing said by anyone gives the feeling of a becoming adventure.

Bilbo's behaviour in the first chapter has always amused me, I don't know why. I pity him. He being little and stupid and fearful, but trying to play an expert. I think Gandalf was a bit rude to do him so, present him as a master burglar. I can imagine him laughing to his beard and watching Bilbo struggle with his new role. Gandalf isn't cruel, but his somewhat malicious.

As he lay in bed he could hear Thorin humming to himself in the best bedroom next to him: Far over misty mountains cold...

Somehow this always makes me smile. It's funny. I can imagine nervous Bilbo, trying to get sleep with wild thoughts running in his head, and Thorin in the neighbouring room humming. Maybe it's the humming dwarf that has always amused me.

I like Gandalf in this chapter. His the man here. He knows the most, he keeps the secret. He's not as serious with the journey as the dwarves are (=he doesn't have personal feelings mixed up) and he isn't as nervous as Bilbo. He controls the situation. (In fact, he's the same kind of character to the end.)

[Essex]

re Davem's point

Of course, Bilbo's story is referred to in LotR (& The Quest of Erebor), so it is part of the Legendarium. This version of it, however, should be kept to one side as a children's story, a kind of 'Fantasia' on Middle-earth, an introduction if you like - imo, of course.

Is this because you see the Hobbit as a Children's book and the LOTR as not one? I see the LOTR as a Children's book as well as the Hobbit. Haven't most of us here read it first when we were kids? To be fair, the Hobbit is written in a more 'childish' style - but I also see LOTR as a Children's tale - but one so good that we take it into our adult world and never let go of it........

[davem]

Originally Posted by Essex

re Davem's point Is this because you see the Hobbit as a Children's book and the LOTR as not one? I see the LOTR as a Children's book as well as the Hobbit. Haven't most of us here read it first when we were kids? To be fair, the Hobbit is written in a more 'childish' style - but I also see LOTR as a Children's tale - but one so good that we take it into our adult world and never let go of it........

Actually, I don't think of LotR as a 'children's' book - I don't think of TH as a 'children's' story either. The story of TH is a story & the only distinction I make is between good stories & bad stories. TH is a good story.

The reason I wouldn't include it in the Legendarium is that it was not written to be part of it, it was written a an entertainment for his children first & foremost - that doesn't make a 'children's' story, it merely means it was written in what Tolkien thought was a style they would like.

TH is too 'free', too 'unbound' by the 'logical' limits & restrictions set on the Legendarium by Tolkien. It isn't just whimsical (which BoLT is also) but it is also at times patronising (a fault which Tolkien himself acknowledged).

The Elves & Trolls of TH work very well in the self contained world of TH, but viewed in the light of the Eldar & Olog Hai of the Legendarium proper they stick out like a sore thumb.

Anyway, I've said all this before so I'll stop here before Formendacil pops up to chastise me again (even though both last time & this I was responding to specific points directed at me by other posters

[Thinlómien]

I see the LOTR as a Children's book as well as the Hobbit.

I disagree. I would say that it has no age limits. (What a cliché.)

The way of telling the story make tH and LotR different. The Hobbit is told lightly and quite plainly. In LotR the text includes lots of description and the events and some of the characters are much darker. The atmosphere is very different.

How is LotR children's book, Essex? The fact(?) that most of us have read it first as children doesn't make it a children's book. Have you any better arguments?

[Tuor in Gondolin]

While TH can be read as a children's book
or adult's there are some arguments for
it as a children's book.

1.)JRRT actually created it as one of the stories
he told his children (like Roverandom).

2.)t works very well as a read aloud book to children
(I did so to a fourth grade class with various students
taking parts (I got to be the narrator- and Gandalf,after all, I had to buy multiple copies for the class to read) . Btw, three boys got to be
bad guys and were repeatedly killed (trolls, spiders,
goblins, etc.). There were some great death scenes.

3.)And, as noted above, it was originally not in
the legendarium (hence the more comic dwarves).

[Alchisiel]

I just have to put my two cents in-that's what my opinion is probably worth. I'll keep it short and sweet.

I've always thought TH was set in a happier time-the One ring was thought lost, no one knew Sauron had "resurfaced, " there was no mention of the elves going into the West. I think if you look at it that way it does belong in the Ledendarium as the way Middle Earth was before the finding of the Ring.

Just my thoughts.

[Lalwendë]

Originally Posted by davem

Actually, I don't think of LotR as a 'children's' book - I don't think of TH as a 'children's' story either. The story of TH is a story & the only distinction I make is between good stories & bad stories. TH is a good story.

The reason I wouldn't include it in the Legendarium is that it was not written to be part of it, it was written a an entertainment for his children first & foremost - that doesn't make a 'children's' story, it merely means it was written in what Tolkien thought was a style they would like.

TH is too 'free', too 'unbound' by the 'logical' limits & restrictions set on the Legendarium by Tolkien. It isn't just whimsical (which BoLT is also) but it is also at times patronising (a fault which Tolkien himself acknowledged).

The Elves & Trolls of TH work very well in the self contained world of TH, but viewed in the light of the Eldar & Olog Hai of the Legendarium proper they stick out like a sore thumb.

Sorry but I've just got to argue...again...

I don't think it matters whether or not the original intention was that The Hobbit be part of the Legendarium or not, because it now is a part of the Legendarium. I think this is a case of the Reader being more important than the Author.

I also have to wonder what the 'Legendarium' actually is, as if we are going to be strict about it and go down the Authorial intention route, then LotR is not even a part of it, as it was begun as a follow-up to The Hobbit. In that respect only the Silmarillion is part of the Legendarium. I know davem will argue that LotR rapidly became part of the Legendarium during the process of writing it, as Tolkien included more and more from his Silmarillion writings, but he also did this with The Hobbit, amending the work to include more of that world.

He may not have begun with the intention of it being a part of his 'Legendarium' but that is irrelevant as he made it a part of it, and the readers then went on to accept it as part of it.

As such it serves as the perfect beginning to Tolkien's work, and includes much that helps us to better appreciate the world of LotR e.g. more knowledge of Hobbits, the character of Gollum, and some time spent with Dwarves, who are in comparison quite sidelined in LotR. I often wonder whether it affects our reading if we don't begin with The Hobbit, but that may be one of those questions we will never be able to answer as once we have begun with either TH or LotR, we don;t know what it would have been like otherwise.

[Child of the 7th Age]

Dragging this up again.....

I have a question that I hope someone can answer as it's not the kind of thing that you can "google". I'm curious about Bilbo's "porter" that he served to some of the dwarves.

I had never even heard of porter before and have no idea what it takes like. Is it something like Guiness stout? Do people still drink this at the pubs? And what brands are there, in case I decide I want to try this? Is there something about porter that would make it especially appealing to dwarves?


When I looked it up online, the best I could come up with is this:

porter: (English) London style brew that became practically extinct, but is making a comeback. Originally made to satisfy the demand for a 50/50 mix of ale and stout, porter's dark brown hue comes from roasting the barley before the brewing process begins. A lighter-bodied companion to the stout, it possesses a less pronounced hop flavor than ale, and is a heavier brew than most, with just a hint of sweetness.

[Bêthberry]

Well, I'd better hop to comments on the first chapter if I have any hopes of catching up with TH discussion. I don't have any long dissertations to offer, nor any knowledge about porter--sorry, Child--but simply a few observations about reading the book now.

I'm not much interested in the 'exclude it from the Legendarium' debate because I'm far more interested in just how Tolkien got there, so to speak. And when I read TH now I am intrigued by how much belongs to traditional elements of fairie--dragons, fairy wives, magic. I have the feeling that I can almost see the process of how Tolkien created his own Middle-earth out of his earlier reading (and his children's own reading).

Originally Posted by Bilbo speaking

Not the wandering wizard that gave Old Took a pair of magic diamond studs that fastened themselves and never came undone till ordered? Not the fellow who used to tell such wonderful tales at parties, about dragons and goblins and giants and the rescue of princesss and the unexpected luck of widows' sons?

And I have to say that I love the style of that famous first sentence, the all-important subject pushed back to the very end by double prepositional phrases and the pattern-marker 'there.'

About it's nature as a children's story, I note that it lacks explicit detail, as children's knowledge often does.

After that there were no dwarves left alive inside, and he took all their wealth for himself.

I don't think we've ever had a proper discussion about Tolkien's brand of humour, not just in TH but elsewhere, but certainly I think it would be worth, as we read through TH trying to consider just what comprised Tolkien's funny bone, for he definitely had one. The names in particular depend upon linguistic play, mixing vowels and consonants (which linguists call, I think, 'minimal pairs.') It's all this Bifur, Bofur, Bombur and Dori, Nori, Ori, Oin, and Gloin, and etc. This is actually quite a clever way to draw his children's attention to language. And I don't think it simply childish word play. After all, the founding saint of Glasgow is still called affectionately by the denizens of that city, St. Mungo. When I learnt that, Frodo, Bilbo and company seemed so much more interesting linguistically.

And the last observation I have concerns the songs. Even here in a children's story we have Tolkien recognising the role of music in sparking the imagination--something he will draw out in his depiction of Rivendell.

As they sang the hobbit felt the love of beautiful things made by hands and by cunning and by magic moving through him, a fierce and jealous love, the desire of the hearts of dwarves. Then something Tookish woke up inside him, and he wished to go and see the great mountains, and hear the pine-trees and the waterfalls, and explore the caves, and wear a sword instead of a walking-stick. He looked out the window. The stars were out in the dark sky above the trees. He thought of the jewels of the dwarves shining in the dark caverns. Suddenly in the wood beyond The Water a flame leapt up--probably somebody lighting a wood-fire--and he thought of plundering dragons settlingon his quiet HIll and kinglind it all to flames. He shuddered; and very quickly he was plain Mr Baggins of Bag-End, Under-Hill, again.

It's all there, inchoate, germinal, ready to be gently simmering in the cauldron of story.

[piosenniel]

Child

Porter . . . a delightful brew. And a staple of English pub drinking since @ 1700 (It has since unfortunately, fallen out of favor there. But over on this side of the water we've picked up the taste for it.)

Rich, heavy and dark with the color of roasted "chocolate" malt; smooth on the tongue; a little less alcohol content than stout (Guinness), usually.

It's said that a century ago, this beer was a staple of the delivery men (porters) after whom it was named; if you didn't tip the guy a "porter", you might find some of your luggage damaged on arrival at the local hostelry!

Here are a couple of links to the lovely drink: First pint and Fill 'er up again!

And may I recommend Black Butte Porter from the Deschutes Brewery here in Oregon.

And now to tie this back into The Hobbit:

I've no doubt that any well-stocked Hobbit cellar might have a cask of porter to serve guests. And Dwarves, I think would have loved the brew, including the lovely creamy foam they could suck from their mustaches.

[Raynor]

Originally Posted by davem

The reason I wouldn't include it in the Legendarium is that it was not written to be part of it, it was written a an entertainment for his children first & foremost - that doesn't make a 'children's' story, it merely means it was written in what Tolkien thought was a style they would like.

I believe it is a children story which became part of the legendarium :

Originally Posted by Letter #25

My tale is not consciously based on any other book - save one, and that is unpublished: the 'Silmarillion', a history of the Elves, to which frequent allusion is made.

Originally Posted by Letter #163

The Hobbit was originally quite unconnected, though it inevitably got drawn in to the circumference of the greater construction; and in the event modified it. It was unhappily really meant, as far as I was conscious, as a 'children's story', and as I had not learned sense then, and my children were not quite old enough to correct me, it has some of the sillinesses of manner caught unthinkingly from the kind of stuff I had had served to me, as Chaucer may catch a minstrel tag.

[Calan]

I find I must second the catching up to keep up, here - this is the one I wanted to see, at any rate! I first read The Hobbit in perhaps fifth grade, and didn't think much of it at the time other than 'fun story'. On rereading the book a year or two later though, I was well and hooked; not to mention going back to it time and again as I read the trilogy proper. For reference, my copy is the black-covered Ballantine paperback.

As to the first chapter here, I'll agree that it's one of the more humorous in the book, both in reading and in practice - I've suckered more than one person into the 'good morning' exchange.

Dwarf-songs - Over the Misty Mountains is undoubtedly the song I remember the most from the book on the whole. It's a clean way to give a good deal of backstory to what's going on, and beautiful besides - the version in the BBC radio adaptation strikes meas very much like it 'really' would have sounded like.

Gandalf - I found (and find) no trouble in seeing Gandalf as a wizard, despite the most 'magical' thing he does in this chapter being the tricks with smoke-rings. Most of the time (and in the Trilogy proper as well), his 'magic' is in making things work out!

I find I must second most of what's already been quoted, particularly the last presented by Estelyn and Bethberry. A few more than I find good, though...

With that the hobbit turned and scuttled inside his round green door, and shut it as quickly as he dared, not to seem rude. Wizards after all are wizards.

Good advice.

"We like the dark," said the dwarves. "Dark for dark business! There are many hours before dawn."

I've been in that frame of mind many times.

And finally: intended it may be, but I don't believe that TH comes off as purely a children's story. There are subtleties to be found as we've already begun to do, and certainly the vocabulary is past what I would call childish. It's certainly -light- reading in comparison to the rest of the milieu , but that's not a bad thing.

[Child of the 7th Age]

Pio

Thanks a lot for the information and the links on porter. We will have to try out some ourselves to see if it is as excellent as suggested.

I have learned something interesting from the historical data you provided. We talk a lot about the "anachronisms" in the Shire. It appears that porter is actually an anachronism of sorts. It is not an "ancient" drink but was first brewed in 1722, according to the information on the website.

Again, thanks much.

[Essex]

Originally Posted by Thinlómien

How is LotR children's book, Essex? The fact(?) that most of us have read it first as children doesn't make it a children's book. Have you any better arguments?

Errrr, I think you have answered your own queation there.

most of us have read it first as children

What other evidence could be as daming as this????!!!!!

[Lhunardawen]

Like those before me I'll be skipping out on the TH-as-part-of-the-Legendarium debate. After all, the main reason I'm participating in this CbC is to help me appreciate the book itself more, not so much as to acknowledge its place in the Legendarium. I'll have to admit that I've spent more than a year in the Downs without reading The Hobbit - and so to answer half of Lalwendë's question, I don't think that not reading TH before LotR accounted for much of a difference. Well, except of course that one is bound to think that Bilbo might seem a bit overrated in LotR without having read what he had been through in TH. Yep, that's me.

Two more things I have to admit about not liking TH much is that one, I never really appreciated Dwarves fully. *ducks from Kuruharan's projectiles* And two, I find the lack of female characters here most disappointing. You see, one of my gauges for determining a good read is that I have to be able to relate with the characters somehow. The first time I finished reading TH there was nothing like that all...perhaps because before then I've already met and related with Eowyn.

Which is the exact point of why I'm determined to follow through the discussions as best I could as I read the book again; I'm hoping that this time around I'll find lovable things in TH that I didn't notice before...with your help, my dear Downers.

[/rambling]

So this time around, from the very beginning I tried to place my feet inside Bilbo's shoes...not that he wore any. Pathetic comic attempts aside, I felt terribly annoyed and harassed for him. That leads me to think deeper and consider why in the world Gandalf could have chosen Bilbo instead of some other hobbit...and of course Bilbo's Tookish bloodline sprang to mind. I wonder if Gandalf expected Bilbo to stick to his alleged burglary for whatever reason, or if he took a gamble and crossed his fingers and hoped that Bilbo wouldn't decline. But we see later on in the chapter that Gandalf took the matters into his own intimidatingly large hands when things started to get out of hand (begging your pardon), that is when Gloin started to question Bilbo if he really is what he claimed to be (or more accurately, what Gandalf claimed for him to be). Since I will be reading the book as if I have never read it before (which might as well have been the case as I vaguely remember anything from it), I'll be looking out for the answer to this as I plod on.

My view of the Dwarves - which had been rather dismal so far, considering how they seemed to be oblivious to Bilbo's situation - began to lighten up with their first song. Not only was I relieved to find them finally helping with something, the song itself was also very amusing, particularly the fact that they were able to discern part of Bilbo's personality despite having just met him.

What I found most odd here is that in spite of the seriousness of the matter in their hands later that evening (especially with Thorin speaking), I had a bit of difficulty considering it so. Perhaps the initial cheery atmosphere carried on for me throughout the chapter, and whether that is a good thing or bad I cannot tell.

Quite needless to say I had fits of laughter as I read through this chapter (which were usually accompanied by weird stares from people around me...hehe), and for the most part Bilbo was responsible for them. And the origin of Golf...that was just crazy.

P. S. Esty, if I'm not mistaken Nilp came out with an RPG idea on the love story between Belladonna Took and Bungo Baggins before. Just thought I'd mention it.

[Alphaelin]

I'm so glad to be able to join a C-b-C discussion *before* the halfway point in the book is reached

I'll try to respond to Esty's introductory post without boring anyone here who has already read my comments about TH on other threads. I've just realized one interesting thing: I read the book for myself for the first time after I read LOTR! My first time through the book was having it read to me in school, which was enjoyable, but the emphasis was not the same as when I read it myself.

TH was my introduction to Middle Earth: Everything I have come to love about Tolkien's writing I owe to this book, for it showed me my first glimpses of Dwarves, Rivendell, Elrond, Gondolin, the Ring, wizards, Elves, goblins and dragons. For that reason alone, I have continued to read it once every couple of years in hommage to the Middle Earth vistas it has led me to. Certainly it is lighter and yes, a bit sillier than the rest of the Legendarium, but for me that is a pleasant break from some of the heavier subjects JRRT wrote about. I do understand that not everyone finds this appealing, but then my family and I are a silly people.

I do know that when reading it for myself, Far over the Misty Mountains Cold and its accompanying paragraph is one of my favorite passages in this chapter. I love the strong rythm of the song itself -- in fact I usually chant it out loud just for the pleasure of hearing the words.

As they sang the hobbit felt the love of beautiful things made by hands and by cunning and by magic moving through him, a fierce and jealous love, the desire of the hearts of dwarves. Then something Tookish woke up inside him, and he wished to go and see the great mountains, and hear the pine-trees and the waterfalls, and explore the caves, and wear a sword instead of a walking-stick.

The description of Bilbo's response is very interesting: suddenly the idea of passion is introduced into his calm, orderly mind-set -- and he is attracted by it. We see the beginnings of Bilbo's journey here, too. Not just the physical journey to the mountain and back, but the journey away from a safe, settled existence toward danger and knowledge of the world beyond the Shire and Bilbo's awakening to his own hidden abilities.

[Holbytlass]

I read The Hobbit right before FOTR came out, at 28 yrs old. The movies are what brought me to it. I fell in love with it.

I related to Bilbo right away with his simplistic lifestyle and love of food and visitors. I love his home-very earthy yet all the modern conveniences of the day (ex tiled floors, pannelled walls, and no smoke).

Bilbo is obviously rich, he doesn't have a job yet is asked to lend money, an inheritance from his parents especially his mother who also probably had inheritance from her own parents but I like to think that some of it came from Belladonna's own adventures- "Not that Belladonna Took ever had any adventures after she became Mrs. Bungo Baggins. (emphasis mine)

Gandalf, like the elves, seems more light-hearted and incline to joke around more in TH than LOTR. Gandalf seems to be more amused with Bilbo than Pippin, who is more of a Took than Bilbo is.

Something interesting is how differently Gandalf deals with Bilbo in comparison to Beorn (later in the book) with the introductions to the dwarves. I suppose it can wait till ch7 to compare/contrast.

Overall, I think Tolkien did a superb job with the first chapter. Not so much that he is a great writer but that so many introductions and much information had to be given, it was cohesive and rather funny.

Does anyone know why there were so many dwarves?
Also, what are the braces that Bilbo sticks his fingers behind to blow smoke-rings?

[JennyHallu]

Braces would be suspenders.

[Tuor of Gondolin]

Holbytlass:

I like to think that some of it came from Belladonna's own adventures-

No doubt she went at least as far as Breeland, and she
might have gotten along famously with Goldberry.
But perhaps BT got as far as Rivendell and told her
son of elves and their dwellings, even taught him
elvish. Perhaps she even punted up and down
the Brandywine!
Or BT wandered in regions not
discussed by her son or his heir in their writings.

[Kath]

Does anyone know why there were so many dwarves?

Perhaps so they needed Bilbo because of the unlucky number thing. Gandalf made quite a thing of that so they were obviously bothered by it.

[Fordim Hedgethistle]

Originally Posted by Lalwendë

One concerned the choice of 'Baggins', which has always struck me as similar to the word 'baggin' - meaning a workman's lunch. Apparently in the OED 'baggin' is listed as 'bagging'; Shippey ppointed out that Tolkien knew that this was an incorrect spelling according to the people who actually used the word, as it's a dialect word from the north. Tolkien was a member of the Yorkshire Dialect Society (which I did not know!) and so knew that the correct term was 'baggin' and used it as the name for a food-loving Hobbit.

I'm surprised that this is all the information they give for the names. The names are actually much more rich than this, although I was unaware of the lunch thing, which is fascinating:

A bilbo means both an iron bar that was used to fasten a prisoner's legs together, or a sword (from the Spanish city of "Bilboa" which was known in the renaissance and before for its steelworks).

"Baggins" is a compoud of 'bag in', which echoes the name of the hobbit's home, Bag End, which is the literal English transation of cul de sac ('end of a bag'): French for a dead end. Another interesting work is the Greek kalypsomenoi (from which the witch Calypso gets her name in the Odyssey) which means "To have one's head in a bag" to describe someone who is blind to his duty or ignoring his responsibilities.

"Took" is both the past tense of the verb to take (so contains the possibility of theiving? Bilbo must learn to take the treasure??), but also has older meanings -- it is also a sword or a triumphant/defiant blast on a trumpet made by way of challenge or before setting out on a venture.

So put all this together...

Our protagonist has two last names -- Baggins and Took -- that provide him with the two sides of his identity that will be in conflict with one another throughout his journey: the Baggins half that years to return to the comfortable dead end that is his home (end of a bag, bag-in); and the Took that wants to become a thief, wear a sword, and trumpet his greatness.

These two different possibilities are not set in direct opposition to one another though, because his first name is the combination of both: bilbo = imprisoning shackles, bilbo = sword. It's almost as though Bilbo has to learn to move beyond thinking of himself as being divided by his last names and toward realising a new a complex identity as contained by his first name.

I've said it before, and I'll say it again: Professor Tolkien was no slouch of a philologist!

[davem]

The oddest thing is that he wrote TH for his children, none of whom would have got any of that. He never expected anyone else to read TH, so all that stuff must have been written as a private entertainment.

So, I suppose we could say that he wrote TH as much for himself as for his children. It seems like what he actually wrote was two Hobbits in one.

[Fordim Hedgethistle]

I think it may be more than simply a private entertainment. Throughout all his writings you find these kinds or names and linguistic play, and I'm not sure we can say with any confidence that the adult reader of LotR is going to get them all -- if any of them. There are so many, and they are so clearly the result of such effort and learning, that I can only conclude that they play some significant role in the creation of the story. For Tolkien, I think, the word always comes first -- in particular the name. For him to write the story of Bilbo Baggins (not just relate the plot of adventure, but to tell Bilbo's story, the story of his growth and development) he required a name that would reflect that story, or contain it. It might even be simply a question of aesthetics: the name of his character had to 'fit' the nature of that character for Tolkien.