Are Ents free?

[daeron]

Yavanna created ents to protect the trees and other 'olvar'. My question is , do they possess free will or are they bound to Yavanna like the dwarves were before Eru took over?

Their not having free will but carrying out the instuctons of Yavanna would mean that the Valar played a much greater part in the outcomes of the third age than would seem. The same thing can be said about the eagles of Manwe. If they were acting under the orders of Manwe, then their actions in the first age would mean that the Valar did not stay out as was said. It would mean that Manwe had a part in the rescue of Fingolfin's body, in looking after Gondolin, ........

So do you think eagles and ents are free willed? Orcs? trolls?

[Rune Son of Bjarne]

I haver never given it much thought, but it is an interesting question.

I would never say they have free will as I don't belive in it, but thats a differnt discution for a different forum.

I belive that the ents like the eagles was sent to ME with a mission, but how they achieved there goal was up to them. I am afraid I cant really say why. . .

I know it is a short post, but I just wantet to help getting this thread startet.

[Gothmog]

I agree with Rune here, the ents and eagles was probably sent to ME for a reason and they had their mission, but within the limts set up for them they were free to act in the way they thought was most suiting for the moment.

But how does the creation of species work? We know the elves and men were created by Eru and that he gave them a "free will" or whatever you want to call it. But when Aule tried to create his own people they became creatures without a real soul. Eru tells Aule this:

Why hast thou done this? Why dost thou attempt a thing which thou knowest is beyond thou thy power and thy authority? For thou hast from me as a gift thy own being only, and no more; and therefore the creatures of thy hand and mind can live only by that being, moving when thou thinkest to move them, and if thy thought is elsewhere, standing idle. Is that thy desire?

Apparently the Valar can't create anything with it's own will. The dwarves were blessed by Eru in compassion so they became a free people.

So if the ents and eagles were created by Valar, they would not be able to act other than on their command. But now it's Eru that tells Manwe about the spirits that will inhabit certain Olvar and Kelvar. Sure, it was in Yavanna's and Manwe's thoughts in the Song, but it was Eru that finally made it happen, gave the Ents and Eagles their "souls". Here's the section (Manwe to Kementari regarding what Eru has told him):

Do then any of the Valar suppose that I did not hear all the Song, even the least sound of the least voice? Behold! When the Children awake, then the thought of Yavanna will awake also, and it will summon spirits from afar, and they will go among the kelvar and the olvar, and some will dwell therein, and be held in reverence, and their just anger shall be feared. For a time: while the Firstborn are in their power, and while the Secondborn are young. (emphasis mine)

I think that proves that the guardians of kelvar and olvar wasn't something Yavanna or even Manwe created, other than perhaps their physical shape. The spirits was, if I understand this correct, put in them by Iluvatar. Therefore: Ents=free Eagles=free

But what was these spirits? Spirits of ME or from somewhere outside the creation? That's an other discussion...

[Mänwe]

I agree also that this is a most fascinating question, and I would add a little something that for me suggests there is another "power" that holds them. I quote from Tolkien's letters,

"...but Ents and their wives being rational creatures would find some 'earthly paradise' until the end of this world: beyond which the wisdom neither of Elves nor Ents could see. Though maybe they shared the hope of Aragorn that they were 'not bound for ever to the circles of the world and beyond them is more than memory.'...." (Letter #338) [My emphasis]

I read this and interpret it as a "something" else that holds sway over the Ents. My emphasised text, I would say, alludes to the fact that the Ents are in direct link with Arda. That they experience the same 'circles of the world', thus they are bound to its fate, and we know that the Valar created Arda in their song, themselves under the influence of Illuvatar. Consequently they have had an indirect effect upon the Ents.

Also, when Illuvatar addresses Melkor due to the discord he had been creating in the 'making', does he state that 'all' have source within him.

"And thou, Melkor, shalt see that no theme may be played that hath not its uttermost source in me, nor can any alter the music in my despite. For he that attempteth this shall prove but mine instrument in the devising of things more wonderful, which he himself hath not imagined.'" - (Silmarillion Ainulindalë)

Thus perhaps Yavanna's creation of the Ents, seemingly her own was infact just part of Illuvatar's plan. Consequently all that exists is by influence of Illuvatar and so does not have its own will.

However I am not without the need to disprove my own suggestions,

Tolkien, although his language appears to be rather colloquial (he would not make a point without meaning it, despite the apparent light hearted nature in which he writes) relative to his many other letters, nevertheless states that they are 'rational creatures'. Our very definition of the word promotes the idea of "free will". Which I think blends nicely with the quote Gothmog provided us with the conversation Manwë had with Kementari.

[Raynor]

How about if they are maiar?

Originally Posted by Letter #200

They [valar and maiar] were self-incarnated, if they wished; but their incarnate forms were more analogous to our clothes than to our bodies, except that they were more than are clothes the expression of their desires, moods, wills and functions. Knowledge of the Story as it was when composed, before realization, gave them their measure of fore-knowledge; the amount varied very much, from the fairly complete knowledge of the mind of the Creator in this matter possessed by Manwe, the 'Elder King', to that of lesser spirits who might have been interested only in some subsidiary matter (such as trees or birds).

these lesser spirits taking care of trees and birds could very well be the same spirits taking care of kelvar and olvar. It can be argued: if they are maiar, why did the elves had to teach them a language - but it is worth noting that even the istari (the "wisest of the maia", Olorin, included) have to re-learn a lot of what they knew, once they are embodied.

The eagles are another interesting matter: in Annals of Aman, Tolkien notes that

Manwe however sent Maia spirits in Eagle form to dwell near Thangorodrim and keep watch on all that Melkor did and assist the Noldor in extreme cases

Yet on the other hand, in Myths Transformed, he goes the other way around:

But true 'rational' creatures, 'speaking peoples', are all of human / 'humanoid' form. Only the Valar and Maiar are intelligences that can assume forms of Arda at will. Huan and Sorontar could be Maiar - emissaries of Manwe. But unfortu¬nately in The Lord of the Rings Gwaehir and Landroval are said to be descendants of Sorontar
...
In summary: I think it must be assumed that 'talking' is not necessarily the sign of the possession of a 'rational soul' or fea. The Orcs were beasts of humanized shape (to mock Men and Elves) deliberately perverted / converted into a more close resemblance to Men. Their 'talking' was really reeling off 'records' set in them by Melkor. Even their rebellious critical words — he knew about them. Melkor taught them speech and as they bred they inherited this; and they had just as much independence as have, say, dogs or horses of their human masters. This talking was largely echoic (cf. parrots), in The Lord of the Rings Sauron is said to have devised a language for them.
The same sort of thing may be said of Húan and the Eagles: they were taught language by the Valar, and raised to a higher level - but they still had no fear.

[It is worth noting also that Myths transformed presents an almost complete change of Tolkien's designs: the coming of the Men is shifted thousands of years back, the Sun and Moon apparently predate the Trees, orcs are in "irremediable allegiance to evil" (while in letter #153 he refutes that idea). All in all, Christopher concludes that this new design is "a fearful weapon against his own creation", so I will go with the "eagles as maiar" idea onwards.]

[Gothmog]

I agree with you Raynor. But the phrase "spirits from afar" (see quote in my previous post) may give a hint of their origin. Would Manwe (or Tolkien) choose those words if the spirits were of Arda? I think not. It sounds as if they're from beyond Arda. Maybe Maiar that remained with Eru when the Valar and other Ainur of Arda descended, but came later to inhibit Eagles and Ents? And they came upon the summoning in Kementari's awakened thought.

If Thorondor/Sorontar was a maia, Gwaihir and Landroval (as his descendants) must have some maia blood. But still they wouldn't be more divine than for example Luthien.

So where does this get us? As for eagles- the first ones was maiar or at least some sort of spirits in eagle body. But those active during the end of the third age was animals, even if they may have contained blood of Ainur and to be considered one step above ordinary beasts.

As for Ents, well this doesn't affect their position as "spirits from afar" that walk among the trees and plants as their shepards. Maiar-yes possibly but then I think they were maiar that arrived later to Arda.

Huan (not to mention Ungoliant) can also be discussed, but this is not the place for such discussions...

[davem]

'Are Ents free'?

If they are, can I have one????

I would hug him, and kiss him and squeeze him and call him 'George' !

[Raynor]

If Thorondor/Sorontar was a maia, Gwaihir and Landroval (as his descendants) must have some maia blood. But still they wouldn't be more divine than for example Luthien.

Perhaps Tolkien's problem with Thorondor's nature would be that he didn't saw fit for an angelic being to mate with animals.