Who delivered the final blow?

[Fordim Hedgethistle]

This is a copy of a PM I received from Boromir88 -- it's pretty self-explanatory (and interesting).

Well, I can't find the option to create a poll, so apparently I can't make one. But, I do have a knew one that you can sink your hands into, if you would so like?

Who delivered the final blow?

Elendil
Gil-galad
Isildur

Which one delivered the final blow in killing Sauron (physical form of course)?

Here's some info I've gathered that can be used.

Quote:

Quote:

So, on one hand we have Elendil and Gil-galad fighting with Sauron, and Sauron was "overthrown" and thrown back. Was he mortally wounded though?

Then on the other we have Isildur bragging he did it. And also, you have to wonder if Elendil and Gil-galad had "killed" Sauron, before Isildur cut off the ring. Or, was it the "cutting off the Ring," that delivered the final blow to Sauron?

Just some thoughts on another poll.

Have at it! (And thanks to Boro for a great topic -- I was beginning to go into Poll Withdrawal.

[Farael]

I Went with Isidur. Sauron would have probably recovered from whatever Gil-Galad and Elendil did to him, but when he lost the ring he lost part of his strenght/power and was defeated (but not killed)

As the question is "who delivered the final blow?" I'll say Isidur. He delivered the final blow, even if the whole situation was staged by Gil-Galad and Elendil

[Boromir88]

Thanks Fordim, for going through with it.

I think the biggest question comes in was, Sauron "mortally" (as in his body) wounded by Gil-galad and Elendil? Or was he not "dead" until Isildur cuts the Ring from his finger?

Isildur boasts that he delivered the final blow, but again this could be nothing more than him bragging. (And I can certainly see Isildur as the bragging type).

So, the biggest question is. Would Sauron have been able to recover (meaning his physical body wasn't "mortally wounded") if Isildur hadn't cut off the Ring?

I agree with Farael, because to me this quote here...

Then Sauron was for that time vanquished, and he forsook his body, and his spirit fled far away and hid in waste places; and he took no visible shape again for many long years.

suggests that Sauron's spirit didn't leave his body until after Isildur cut off the Ring?

However, I think there's other quotes referring to Elendil and Gil-galad as "overthrowing" Sauron. So, really, it just seems like a toss-up. Whether Sauron's body was dead before Isildur cut the Ring, and perhaps his spirit just decided to leave it's "dead body" after Isildur cut off the Ring. Perhaps, his body was already "dead" before Isildur cut off the Ring, his spirit just decided to leave after the Ring was cut off?

[the phantom]

Perhaps no one delivered a killing blow. Maybe, even after his Ring was cut off, he would not have died had he been left alone.

But Sauron knew that he was injured, his forces were defeated, his Ring was not directly under his control, and that he would soon be "killed", and so chose to leave his physical form before he suffered an actual death blow- a blow that would have left him no choice but to die.

[Bêthberry]

Oh gosh, I saw the poll title and was hoping I could pick--or do a write-in--for Peter Jackson.

[Farael]

Originally Posted by Boromir

However, I think there's other quotes referring to Elendil and Gil-galad as "overthrowing" Sauron.

Well, Gil-Galad and Elendil were the kings and captains of the armies that defeated Sauron's, but Isidur actually defeated Sauron himself. Or well, they all did, but Isidur cut the ring which prompted the escape of Sauron's soul from his body.

[Kuruharan]

This makes two polls in a row where I'm going to have to abstain for lack of evidence.

I don't think Tolkien's account allows for certainty. We don't know enough details about what happened.

[Celebuial]

Guess I'm gonna have to abstain from this one too. T'wasn't really a killing blow now, was it? Hmmm...

[mormegil]

I just don't see that robbing Sauron of his ring would 'kill' him, so to speak. The fact is he lived after when Gollum, Bilbo and Frodo had his ring. Therefore it is evident that Isildur courageously cut the ring from an already 'dead' Sauron, thus robbing him of a great source of power. The final blow was delivered by either Elendil or Gil-Galad and I choose Gil-Galad because, quite frankly, I like him better.

[The 1,000 Reader]

To talk sense into fanatical Sauron fans that may visit the board and think that Sauron is their "Ultra super-duper badguy!11", Sauron isn't that great. The Tale of Beren and Luthien shows that he is highly egotistical and lacking combat experience, even stupid(sending the wolves one by one and attacking Luthien when she was no threat to him and Huan had just dropped his guard.)

With this past experience, I doubt Sauron would have gotten up a few seconds later. I believe that Isildur, as previously stated, bravely cut the ring off of a dead Sauron.

I feel that Elendil slew Sauron. Gil-Galad falling by the black hand is mentioned first and even though it(a passage) was mainly written to say that Narsil broke, I believe the passage is also saying that Elendil lived longer and dealt the finishing blow.

This is just my opinion.

[Boromir88]

I think Kuru puts it quite simply, yet makes a very good point. There's not a lot of info as far as the actual battle in concerned. And also, the info that we do have is rather ambiguous or even contradicting.

Ambiguous as in, whether Sauron was dead before Isildur cut off the Ring, and his spirit only decided to leave after the Ring was cut from his hand. Or, whether it was the cutting off of the Ring that did Sauron in and forced his spirit to flee the body.

Contradicting as in, it was Elendil and Gil-galad who "overthrew Sauron" (but as Farael says this could just mean that since Elendil and Gil-galad were the "Generals" there army "overthrew" Sauron's army). Or it was Elendil and Gil-galad who literally "thred" down and killed Sauron (physically). Then we have Isildur, who grant it could just be boasting about the entire thing.

Mormegil brings up a good point:

I just don't see that robbing Sauron of his ring would 'kill' him, so to speak. The fact is he lived after when Gollum, Bilbo and Frodo had his ring.

If Sauron could live without the Ring (which he could), than perhaps it wasn't the loss of his ring that "killed" him, but he was already dead, his spirit just decided to leave at that time. I wonder if his spirit would have left if Isildur didn't cut off the Ring? (Again, this goes back to what Kuru was saying, basically a toss up, there's not enough info).

And I like the logic 1,000 Reader uses to pick Elendil, over Gil-galad. But, perhaps there should have been a fourth option in that it was both Elendil and Gil-galad, because they are both given the credit. But, I think since the question is who delivered the final blow, then it's gotta be one person. And we get back to not enough info to determine. So, basically it's whatever you believe and supporting it.

[Feanor of the Peredhil]

I voted for Isildur simply because he literally did deal the final blow. Perhaps it wouldn't have "killed" Sauron if he hadn't already been so injured, but chronologically speaking, Isildur got the last hit in before Sauron "died". That's final enough for me.

[Roa_Aoife]

Initially, I was just going to pick Isildur as an obvious yes. Then, I read down the posts, and reconsidered. After a second reconsideration, I'm going with my first choice. Allow me to explain:

Gil-galad and Elendil may have knocked Sauron down and "disabled" him, as it were, long enough for Isildur to come in and do his hand-choppy action. It was the loss of the ring that cuased the loss of the physical body. Why? He had poured som much of himself into the ring that with out it, he no longer had the strength to maintain a physical form. That sort of thing takes energy, and the sudden loss was like getting the wind knocked out of him. He needed time to recover, to gather strength with out the ring before he could take any shape whatsoever. Even then, his physical form was far more limited than it had been with the ring. (Come on- he was a giant eye, for goodness sake. What could he do, blink at his enemies?) He had to rely on his other abilities to get anything done, the foremost being the ability to get his cronies to do the physical work.

To summarize- the loss of the ring cuased the loss of his power to overcome entropy, and since Isildur caused it, he gets the credit. Way to go Gil-galad and Elendil with the assist.

[AbercrombieOfRohan]

I think I'll go with Gollum.

[Eomer of the Rohirrim]

Gollum, snrk.

Sauron was never a giant eye, but it's true that he couldn't maintain physical form at the Siege because it had been sliced and diced by our heroes.

One point: The passage reads "Then Sauron was for that time vanquished" after a sentence including the terms "Sauron also was thrown down" and "Isildur cut the Ruling-ring", so there is no basis in saying that this "vanquished" line supports one or t'other.

the phantom makes a good point (*gasp*) when he says that maybe there was no final blow before Sauron decided to leave his body.

In The Council, Elrond tells that "Sauron himself was overthrown, and Isildur cut the Ring from his hand..." This seems like good support for not choosing Isildur as the one who delivered the 'final' blow, which I read as that blow which crippled Sauron's body.

Fordim, you should have made it a choice between Isildur and Elendil/Gilgalad. Once more you have incurred pettiness at the structure of your polls. You'd think you would have it sorted by now.

[Tuor of Gondolin]

I was going to abstain, but a key is the improbability of
the very questionable PJ depiction of Sauron losing the
Ring. More likely is the Ring being cut off of a finger, with
that obviously only practicable when Sauron was "dead."
therefore, Elendil/Gilgalad seems the choice, with it
being relatively unimportant which one technically got the
last "killing" blow in. But since Isildur claimed the Ring
as weregild I'll opt for Elendil.

[Eomer of the Rohirrim]

My, my, that is an excellent point Tuor. I can vote now.

[Farael]

More likely is the Ring being cut off of a finger, with that obviously only practicable when Sauron was "dead."

I beg to differ as he could have been incapacitated as well. You don't need to be dead to be helpless! I do agree that the depiction of the scene shown in LoTR The Movie is a little off... because we know Sauron lost ONE finger and the only way to hack the ring finger off someone is going through either their little finger or their index and middle finger! Unless, of course, the person carrying the ring tries to point his ring finger at the other (which, if you try, you'll find is VERY awkward)

Yet that does not mean that Sauron was beyond recovery. His physical body was inhabited by a VERY STRONG soul and therefore one could think that he could recover from many things a human could not and yet the soul chose to leave the body after the ring was cut off. That is, at least, what I understand from the books. So as I said before, Isidur and Elendil might have incapacitated Sauron, but loosing the ring is what made his soul leave the body.

[bilbo_baggins]

Really it seems to me as some people dislike Isildur himself and his character. I believe that Isildur delivered the "final" blow and that no-one delivered a killing blow because a child of Illuvatar cannot really destroy a Valar or Maiar with simple weapons. Later, Sauron is destroyed because of the destruction of the Ring, so he could be ~vanquished for a time~ by merely losing the Ring in the Last Alliance. So I voted for Isildur.

About Isildur's character: His behaviour after he acquired the Ring is very poor indeed, but I believe that this is because of his being weak-minded. He had noble intentions beforehand. He, after all, was the one to curse the Dead Men of Dunharrow, and through discussion on that, Isildur had to have either inherent power to curse or the Valar deemed him worthy enough to go through with the action. Obviously, Isildur actions were only a result of his owning the ring.

Admitted: His claiming the Ring because of his father's killing the Dark Lord is possible. Convincing, convincing.

[Eomer of the Rohirrim]

So you think Sauron was broken by Isildur cutting his finger off as opposed to Elendil and Gilgalad stabbing him all over his body?

If Isildur took Sauron's ring then Sauron would just take it back, only in this case he couldn't because he was already dead.

Hypothetical situation: Imagine Sauron with the One Ring was going about on Mount Doom and Frodo, say, snuck up and pinched it off his finger—would that have killed him? Of course not, and the situations aren't too different. Are they?

[Farael]

Originally Posted by Eomer of the Rohirrim

So you think Sauron was broken by Isildur cutting his finger off as opposed to Elendil and Gilgalad stabbing him all over his body?

We have no evidence of such thing happening. We don't really know that Elendil and Gil-Galad stabbed him all over

If Isildur took Sauron's ring then Sauron would just take it back, only in this case he couldn't because he was already dead.

Already said, he didn't need to be dead, just incapacitated. And you don't even know that, perhaps the shock of loosing the Ring did destroy his Physical body. After all we know that for the Ainur it is a strain to have a body, perhaps when he lost the Ring he lost the ability to mantain his physical form (until he was able to re-group his strenght and come back again)

Hypothetical situation: Imagine Sauron with the One Ring was going about on Mount Doom and Frodo, say, snuck up and pinched it off his finger—would that have killed him? Of course not, and the situations aren't too different. Are they?

How do you know? perhaps it would have, if as I said before, by loosing the Ring he momentarily lost the ability of having a physical form it would have "killed" him indeed. Note that he wasn't really dead, he just lost his physical form.

[mormegil]

It's all semantics. What is the final blow? Was it incapacitating him so that his finger could be cut off or was it killing him? Because if it was killing him then nobody accomplished that on our list but Abercrombie would be correct and it would be Gollum. Now if the final blow is defined as making it so he could be temporarily destroyed then Gil-Galad or Elendil because they were the two that incapacitated him.

[Farael]

Originally Posted by mormegil

Now if the final blow is defined as making it so he could be temporarily destroyed then Gil-Galad or Elendil because they were the two that incapacitated him.

Well, I would think that if Elendil and Gil-Galad set the situation so that Isidur could cut the finger off, they did not actually finish what they were doing, it was Isidur who did. Also we are forgetting that Elendil and Gil-Galad fell on the battle against Sauron. Surely, a completely incapacitated creature, so terribly hurt he could not prevent his finger being cut off, would not be able to kill the kings of Elves and Men. So there must have been some fight left in Sauron after being attacked by Elendil and Gil-Galad. Perhaps the three of them were heavily wounded, but if Sauron indeed killed the Kings then one must assume he was not quite dead. Then Isidur comes in and chops his finger off. Perhaps Sauron at the time was so weakened he could not defend himself from a healty man (or elf) yet he was by no means done.

I guess we are all agreeing yet thinking of "the final blow" as a different thing. To me is the last blow, the blow that finaly took the life out of Sauron's body (but not his soul, obviously). To others it seems to be.... well, honestly, I'm not sure what they mean by saying that Elendil and Gil-Galad incapacitated Sauron so that Isidur could cut his finger off and therefore it was them who gave the final blow. Could anyone explain their view of a "final blow"? (I'm not being sarcastic or anything like that, I honestly can't understand what they think of as a final blow)

[bilbo_baggins]

Well, I'm pretty sure I agree with you Farael, in so far as Isildur's was the last actual physical harm done to Sauron before he vanished, so that is the truly final (last, ending, none coming after) blow. But it is more likely that Elendil or Gil-galad gave the most damaging blow or vicious wound, that counted the most to the destruction of Sauron. I don't agree that Sauron was as incapacitated as you think. If Elendil was capable of nearly killing Sauron with a final blow, then why not his son? I believe that Sauron was weakened after his epic struggle against the Kings of Elves and Men, but no-one should discount the fact that Isildur was a pure Numenorean, and descended from Elvish blood like his father. He could very well have seriously harmed Sauron all by his onesy. He Aragorn's ancestor after all, and who can deny his strength of arms?

To Eomer of the Rohirrim: I have always had a pet theory that when Sauron poured his power into the Ring, he drained himself. When the Ring was taken from him, it would have been as if you had almost killed him. He then needed time to regain strength and recover. That is why in LOTR, it is more important than ever to keep the ring from Sauron because it would have a cumulative effect and give him more power than at The Last Alliance. So yes, soon after the Ring was made, you could have taken the Ring from Sauron and then watched PJ's pretty fireworks (IMO).

[Farael]

But it is more likely that Elendil or Gil-galad gave the most damaging blow or vicious wound, that counted the most to the destruction of Sauron.

Probably, but sticking to the question, which was "who delivered the final blow?" we have to say Isidur.

I don't agree that Sauron was as incapacitated as you think. If Elendil was capable of nearly killing Sauron with a final blow, then why not his son?

Actually, I was aknowledging what others had said. I believe that, while Elendil and Gil-Galad weakened Sauron he still had some fight left on him, until Isidur cut the finger off. Still, I think he might have been at least temporarily incapacitated, as cutting one finger off is not as easy as it sounds :P

I do agree with you that Sauron was drained after making the ring and therefore was forced out of his physical body.

[mormegil]

Originally Posted by Farael

Probably, but sticking to the question, which was "who delivered the final blow?" we have to say Isidur.

No we don't. The truth would be then, as silly as it sounds, Gollum. I say this because it is fairly well established that Sauron, after the ring was destroyed, would not return and essentially die because he would be more or less powerless. So Gollum delievered the final blow.

[Farael]

Originally Posted by mormegil

No we don't. The truth would be then, as silly as it sounds, Gollum. I say this because it is fairly well established that Sauron, after the ring was destroyed, would not return and essentially die because he would be more or less powerless. So Gollum delievered the final blow.

Actually, we are talking of a specific battle, not overall... and he was defeated in that battle. We agree that 'someone' gave a last blow to defeat Sauron on that battle, right?

[Roa_Aoife]

I guess to sort of restate what Farael is saying: holding a physical body takes a great deal of energy. It's about fighting entropy, which is the natural desire of all matter to be evening spread through out the universe. The fight against entropy is why we require things like food and water, etc. It takes energy.

Now Sauron, being one of the Maiar, had enough power on his own initially to hold a physical form with out any help or energy source. However, when he made the Ring, he poured almost all of his power into it and used it as his energy source, if you will. With out this energy source, he no longer had the power to fight the entropy, and his physical form vanished, like a high energy star turning to a black hole or going nova. So it was the loss of the ring that "killed" him, not the previous blows.

While I do think that Elendil and Gil-galad set up Sauron and weakened him, giving Isildur the chance to remove the ring, I don't think they "killed" him. It isn't like Isildur ran up and yelled, "Finders, Keepers!" and took the ring. He had some honor still at that point. I'm certain there was a strugle involved. As bilbo_baggins, Isildur was a warrior, a highly skilled one. That should be taken into account.

[The 1,000 Reader]

I just think Sauron was already dead. I mean, if he was shot in the head through and through by an archer, he wouldn't be walking around fighting. Besides, if Sauron wasn't already dead, why would Isildur use the hilt-shard of Narsil? There is no mention of his own blade breaking, and if it did, surely he would have used his own sword. If Sauron was still alive, wouldn't it make sence for him(Isildur) to stab Sauron and kill him first? This is just my reasoning.

[Eonwe]

I agree (probably, i haven't read all the posts :sheepish: ) with most in that there is really no way to tell. first you have to define what actually 'the final blow' looks like. what does 'throwing Sauron down' mean? then you must wade through the Morass of Contradiction, and deside which book you like better.

all in all, i think there is no way to tell. but i will stick with my original image of isildur. so many original images (ei, legolas ) have been wrecked by teh movies, i don't want to lose another one.

[Farael]

Originally Posted by The 1,000 Reader

I just think Sauron was already dead. I mean, if he was shot in the head through and through by an archer, he wouldn't be walking around fighting.

Can't really recall that ever happening... did I miss something or was that just an example?

Besides, if Sauron wasn't already dead, why would Isildur use the hilt-shard of Narsil? There is no mention of his own blade breaking, and if it did, surely he would have used his own sword. If Sauron was still alive, wouldn't it make sence for him(Isildur) to stab Sauron and kill him first? This is just my reasoning.

You forget that Swords themselves could be more or less powerful, not only their wielder. Narsil was a great sword and perhaps Isidur used Narsil (even if broken) because he believed it would help him better than his own sword. Besides, as I have already argued three times, he did not need to be dead to be incapacitated!! Perhaps he was knocked out, all woozy and dizzy which allowed Isidur to chop his finger off but he could have had recovered. What finished him off (i.e. Final blow) was the chopping of his ring finger.

[Eomer of the Rohirrim]

What if Sauron accidentally dropped the Ring—would that have killed him? Busting out the reductio ad absurdum...

Take this quote from Johnny T. himself.

"Gilgalad and Elendil are slain in the act of slaying Sauron." (from a letter)

Admittedly, this does not necessarily entail, but it certainly does imply that Gilgalad and Elendil slew Sauron. The way it's worded does suggest this.

The final blow I take to mean that blow which finally broke Sauron's body.

Oh, and by the way: I'm just guessing that the Kings stabbed Sauron all over his body. It's true that there is no explicit textual evidence to support that but I liked the phrase so that's why I typed it.

[Lindolirian]

For the argument that Isildur cut the Ring from Sauron's hand after he had been vanquished, I found a quote of Elrond's (an eye-witness, you know... very useful)

Isildur took it... But few marked what Isildur did.

I have a feeling that in a campaign to destroy the Enemy of all the Free Peoples of Middle Earth, the completion of such a huge undertaking would be pretty well marked by more than a few. My point is that in taking the Ring, Isildur did not do anything spectacular, but was being discrete after the battle was already won and snatched it from a dead hand.
Now to decide between Elendil and Gil-Galad is a tougher choice. Al I can come up with is that Tolkien keeps mentioning Elendil last... of course that really could mean nothing at all, but in the event of a toss-up, I'll let it decide for me.

[Farael]

I must say I am proud of always being the first one to admit I'm wrong when proven wrong... problem is, it usually takes A LOT to have me accept that it has been proven that I was mistaken

Anyway, I was re-reading Lord of The Rings and I got to the part in which they are in Rivendel and Elrond tells the story of how Isidur got The Ring. And the way he tells it, it does have me thinking that he took it from the dead or disabled body of Sauron. I should also take a look at The Silmarillion yet I'm not in the mood for re-reading it at the moment.

But yes, I must say that it seems that I was mistaken and Sauron was already down when Isidur took the ring.

[Eomer of the Rohirrim]

Well, it's by no means definite Farael but we certainly had some good debate.

On a related point, I think I once voted quickly on one of these polls and then changed my mind; of course, you cannot then change your vote.

Polls, eh...

[Formendacil]

This being a Fordhim-posted poll, I think myself fully justified in answering as pedantically as the question allows.

The final blow sustained by Sauron was clearly that of Isildur. Although I would not call it the killing blow, for Sauron was already incapacitated (in my opinion) and not dead (and would not be for 3000 years), it was the final blow to be struck directly against his body.

While the the attack by Gil-galad and Elendil can be more directly said to have caused his incapacitation, and while it was Gollum's misstep that actually killed him, the final blow landed on Sauron's body, the last physical hit, came from the hilt-shard of Narsil, wielded by Isildur.

(Note: My vote shows my real answer to the spirit, if not the letter, of the questions.)

[The 1,000 Reader]

Originally Posted by Farael

Can't really recall that ever happening... did I miss something or was that just an example?



You forget that Swords themselves could be more or less powerful, not only their wielder. Narsil was a great sword and perhaps Isidur used Narsil (even if broken) because he believed it would help him better than his own sword. Besides, as I have already argued three times, he did not need to be dead to be incapacitated!! Perhaps he was knocked out, all woozy and dizzy which allowed Isidur to chop his finger off but he could have had recovered. What finished him off (i.e. Final blow) was the chopping of his ring finger.

That was just an example.

About swords holding power, I doubt Isildur's blade was a shoddy piece of steel. Also, from what I have read, Narsil was extremely well crafted and wasn't forged with any magical spells or objects. Besides, at that point he(Isildur) wouldn't care about dropping his sword or picking up his father's blade, he would just be angry that his father died and he would stab the weakened Sauron repeatedly until he(Sauron) was dead, possibly continuing even after Sauron had died. Looking on Isildur's ego and temper, the only reason he would pick up the hilt-shard of Narsil and cut off Sauron's finger was if Sauron was dead.

Hey, if a dog's teeth can subdue Sauron, surely a sword held by a prince can do the same, if not more.

Also, to everyone who says that Sauron wasn't dead until the ring was destroyed, that statement is composed of ********. If someone loses their body due to, say, multiple stab wounds, they die. If someone loses their body due to old age, they die. Sauron had a body(two in fact) and lost them, so he died. Notice that when he was a spirit he couldn't do anything whatsoever. That doesn't sound like an ainur in pure form to me. This is just my reasoning and I apologize if it offends you.