"Critters of Moria"

[Boromir88]

We come to a discussion on these "critters of Moria" that Gandalf was talking about when he fell into the deepest parts of the Moria. We of course will probably never know what these critters are, but I now have a strong feeling that they were (atleast some of them) the "Watcher in the Water" type creatures. As, there is this one lone passage I have found in Journey through the Dark:

"I felt that something horrible was near from the moment that my foot first touched the water," said Frodo. "What was the thing, or were there many of them?"
"I do not know," answered Gandalf, "but the arms were all guided by one purpose. Something has crept, or has been driven out of dark waters under the mountains. There are older and fouler things than Orcs in the deep places of the world."

We know that the Watcher was attracted to the Ring, it's just be no coincidence that all these things through the journey (Orc Captain in Moria) continually get drawn to Frodo. But, this does bring out two things as far as the Watcher in the Water is concerned.

One, it now may not only be "one" being, it could be multiple octopus-like things, all going after Frodo. And two, Gandalf immediately draws connection with the Watcher in the Water to the "dark waters under the mountains" and the "deep places of the world?" So is the Watcher in the Water one of these "Moria Critters?" Are there possibly more?

[Mithalwen]

Well I always thought it was a hint regarding the Balrog. Then we have the cave troll and Gollum. Trolls may or may not be older than Orcs and Gollum certainly isn't but he is a being that sought the shelter of the mountains when the darkness touched him.

It is part of the suspense building as the story gets literally and metaphorically darker and both reprises the perillous journey through the mountans in the hobbit and foreshadows the encounter with Shelob in Cirith Ungol. They are beginning to face opponents that they may not be able to deal with. Aragorn and Glorfindel can drive off black riderrs aided by fire and water, Bombadil banishes the barrow wight but escaping from Wargs and the Watcher leaves them trapped in Moria.

It also draws on folk mythology - we are taught from childhood tales that "monsters" lurk in dark places ... (there is a wonderful children's book called "The monster bed" about a little monster who can't sleep because he is scared there is a human under the bed!). Even Bilbo knows this and for him there are monsters in the caves he visits ... goblins, Smaug.

It is a fear or a belief that goes deep. Still many people quite seriously search for the Loch Ness Monster in the UK's deepest body of water....

[Kuruharan]

I always kind of thought of it as a "There is more in heaven and earth than is dreamt of in your philosophy" situation.

It is a large fantasy world. Of course there are strange creatures living deep below the earth.

I think Gandalf was probably right that the creature had come out of Moria.

I wonder if the dwarves ever had an encounter with this creature (or this type of creature) when their realm existed there.

[Boromir88]

It is part of the suspense building as the story gets literally and metaphorically darker and both reprises the perillous journey through the mountans in the hobbit and foreshadows the encounter with Shelob in Cirith Ungol. They are beginning to face opponents that they may not be able to deal with. Aragorn and Glorfindel can drive off black riderrs aided by fire and water, Bombadil banishes the barrow wight but escaping from Wargs and the Watcher leaves them trapped in Moria.

And that only increases further on. When the Fellowship breaks, Frodo finds less and less help than when he was in relatively close proximity to The Shire and Rivendell. Closer to the "safe" places, there are more people to help (Bombadil, Farmer Maggot, Glorfindel, The Fellowship), but as he gets farther away, and the Fellowship breaks, the people to step out and help Frodo along the way get fewer. The only person I can think of after the breaking of the Fellowship is Faramir (or if you want to include Gollum, because he did get them out of a sticky mess). However, as the journey progresses, it's only Sam and Frodo, they don't get help from anyone else.

It is a large fantasy world. Of course there are strange creatures living deep below the earth.

And of course I'm sure that the "critters" Gandalf refers to, weren't all "watchers in the water," but just looking at the words he selects, and then later in The White Rider:

"Far, far below the deepest delvings of the Dwarves, the world is gnawed by nameless things. Even Sauron knows them not. They are older than he."

Comparing them, I got this feeling that some of the "nameless things" could have been other "Watchers in the Water." And Perhaps it wasn't just one that attacked Frodo. Alas, we will never know.

I wonder if the dwarves ever had an encounter with this creature (or this type of creature) when their realm existed there.

One of the 13 dwarves (I forget which one I think it was Ori) was killed by the Watcher in the Water. However, Gandalf refers to where he fell as "far below the delvings of the dwarves" and the dwarves did not make the passages down there, so I doubt they came across the creatures Gandalf's talking about in The White Rider. However, they did encounter "The Watcher."

[Kuruharan]

Oh, I don't know. I think it is quite likely they did have encounters with creatures of that sort (as in nameless things). Just because most of them lived lower than the deepest dwarf delvings doesn't mean they did not pop up for a snack every now and then.

The dwarves also probably encountered them when they were digging down.

Probably some fun stories there.

(Hey, RPG idea... )

It was Oin, by the way.

[Lalwendë]

"Far, far below the deepest delvings of the Dwarves, the world is gnawed by nameless things. Even Sauron knows them not. They are older than he."

That's an interesting quote. Sauron was created at the beginning, and these creatures are older than him? So there are some creatures/beings potentially older than the Ainur? How do they fit with Eru then?

[Farael]

Perhaps when the Valar were created more than one became evil, Morgoth being just the most powerful one? Or perhaps that phrase means to say that they were there before Sauron went to Arda... perhaps they were there when Arda was created before the Valar and Ainur inhabited it?
Or maybe those creatures were there before Sauron was corrupted by Morgoth and therefore becoming the evil Sauron?

I really don't know, but I was pondering those options. I would think that the second one seems the most likely, as Arda was created yet we don't know if all the Valar and Ainur went there right when it was created.

[the guy who be short]

Originally Posted by Lal

That's an interesting quote. Sauron was created at the beginning, and these creatures are older than him? So there are some creatures/beings potentially older than the Ainur? How do they fit with Eru then?

I believe the same is true of Ungoliant. As for fitting with Eru... I'm not sure how it works. I would presume they would be outside his plans. Certainly they aren't as powerful as him, as is shown by Morgoth's defeat of Ungoliant (with a little backup).

[Boromir88]

That's an interesting quote. Sauron was created at the beginning, and these creatures are older than him? So there are some creatures/beings potentially older than the Ainur? How do they fit with Eru then?

Well, either Gandalf's wrong. Which is quite possible, as we are aware of what Tolkien feels about his characters, and what his mind is. He uses Treebeard as an example, and says that Treebeard's a character in his story, that's not his own thoughts. So, Gandalf here is speculating, and his speculation is wrong.

Or, perhaps he means they're older than Sauron, as in his time on Middle-earth. They were there in Moria long before Sauron first set foot on Middle-earth?

Or, it's what tgwbs has said.

[Kuruharan]

Or, perhaps he means they're older than Sauron, as in his time on Middle-earth. They were there in Moria long before Sauron first set foot on Middle-earth?

I think this is a pretty reasonable explanation.

[Captain Grishnahk]

Since this thread is discussing the several "critters" of middle earth. I was wondering if Wargs are the same as wolves. In the movies they were more of a hienna type thing, but does Tolkien ever give a discription of them? And how did Saruman use them? I thought they were mostly around the Misty Mountains.

-Cap

[Noxomanus]

First of all, the word is 'hyaena' not 'hienna'.

Secondly, Isengard lay at the southern reaches of the Misty Mountains so I suppose Wargs could be there too. Gandalf (and if I'm not mistaken,Merry and Pippin') mention that there were wolves in Isengard's armies. It was thus perfectly possible for Saruman to send out Wargs (which we can assume those wolves were.)

[davem]

Originally Posted by Captain Grishnahk

Since this thread is discussing the several "critters" of middle earth. I was wondering if Wargs are the same as wolves. In the movies they were more of a hienna type thing, but does Tolkien ever give a discription of them? And how did Saruman use them? I thought they were mostly around the Misty Mountains.

-Cap

Warg derives from Old Norse 'Vargr' meaning wolf - therefore the wargs of Middle-earth were like wolves, not hyenas (though they were larger & more intelligent).

Clearly 'Warg' is Tolkien's translation of the equivalent Middle-earth word (though why he would create a modern English equivalent of an Old Norse word to translate a Middle-earth term, rather than just using the Old Norse or the modern English word is another question).

'Translator Conceit' again....