Allegory in Tolkien - The Barrow-Downs Discussion Forum

the guy who be short · 10-13-2005, 01:59 PM

With a work as grand, as sophisticated, as absorbing as Tolkien's, there can of course be no question that there is much allegory. How could a non-allegoric world ever be so appealing to the masses Tolkien reaches to?

Of course, the Legendarium (and, to please Davem, the Hobbit too) is extensive, and could not possibly be limited to being representative of merely one allegory. I propose that there are several subtle meanings woven into the tale, and beseech you all to take up arms, preferably holding pens, and delve into these.

One of the characters that sticks in my mind as being clearly allegoric of the real world is Strider, or to give him his former name, Trotter. Trotter, it is clear, is simply a slurring of Trotsky, who this character represents.

Apart from the similarities of name, what else supports this theory? There is of course the obvious fact that Trotter is forced to live in exile. The return of the Trotter, as the last book was originally called, reveals Tolkien's Trotskyist sympathies - obviously, he wished that Trotsky could return to the USSR and wrest power from Stalin.

Who then is Stalin? The exiler, of course. This is represented by the House of the Stewards, in particular Denethor, the manic leader who, by means of the Palantir, communicates with and deals with those who should be his enemies, ie, the dark forces of Sauron, representative of fascism and capitalism.

So then, the entire tale of the Ring is simply a semi-allegoric, semi-alternative historic story. Trotter returns to Gondor - a vast land a world apart from the Shire, thus the USSR - to spread proletariat revolution and dethrone Stalinethor. Seizing power by means of this popular revolution, he restores fair rule and deliberately destroys the Palantir via which Stalinethor communicated with Sauron, showing his refusal to deal with capitalist powers. In the end, he nobly goes to war, despite the odds, to defend his ideal.

Obviously, then, the Lord of the Rings is simply a novel exploring forms of communism, the value of various government styles, etc. More specifically, it sets in print the alternative history Tolkien so wanted to happen.

What other examples of allegory have you found in this intensely allegoric world?

Bergil · 10-13-2005, 02:13 PM

To my mind "allegory" is why I don't like cats.

Oroaranion · 10-23-2005, 05:14 AM

so if the whole book is about Stalin and Trotsky, in allegory, where is Lenin? and what about Krushchev, Stalin's successor. and then who are the other world leaders of the time, the Churchills and the Roosevelts. think about it, guy who be short. you should know that i have an immense knowledge of the USSR.

Rune Son of Bjarne · 10-23-2005, 05:33 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Oroaranion

so if the whole book is about Stalin and Trotsky, in allegory, where is Lenin? and what about Krushchev, Stalin's successor. and then who are the other world leaders of the time, the Churchills and the Roosevelts. think about it, guy who be short. you should know that i have an immense knowledge of the USSR.

TGWBS is talking about the battle of power after the death of Lenin, Krushchev played no part in this. At least not a important one. The same goes for the world leaders, nethier Churchill or Roosevelt played any part in this.

The main persons in this battle was: Bukharin, Trotskij, Stalin, Sinovjev and Kamenev.(not totaly sure of Bukharin)You could ask who is representing them? Well they do not have to be representet as they them self, ended up suffering more or less the same desteny as Trotskij.

At last let me say you don't have to have a person to represent every body. You can leave some one out if you wish too.

P.S. I doubt that TGWBS was serius, when he postet!

the guy who be short · 10-23-2005, 11:30 AM

To deny the Christian parallels in Tolkien would be the pinnacle of foolishness. The man himself proclaimed the works as "consciously [Christian] in the revision." One of the key parts of the Bible mythos is the Fallen Angel tale, and it stands to reason that this would make it into Tolkien.

It is, however, of immense interest that the Fallen character in Tolkien is not a power, but one of the Lesser Children: Elu Thingol.

Though it seems a little unlikely at first glance, this theory has sufficient evidence to be supported by many Tolkienologists, and the evidence speaks for itself.

Firstly, let us consider Thingol's nature. He was one of the Four High Kings of the Quendi, and in a position of strength. This means he was automatically an important character, and one with potential to Fall. This is clearly signified by his ominous name - Greymantle; grey here signifies impurity.

Elwe's downfall began with the refusal of the Summons of the Valar. Though he feigned concordance with their will, his heart was set against the removal of the Quendi from the first, willing instead his own realms in Middle Earth. However, he decided to march his followers to the West nonetheless, out of desire to be removed from the other Quendi, who could rival his power.

After the march, Elwe halted in Beleriand, thinking to feign confusion and claim he was lost, when he was struck by luck. For there, he met Melian, and this was the moment of the Fall. For by his dark magic, he enticed one of the children of Eru himself, and forced himself upon her, and bound her to him. So it was that he perverted that which should have been good. Thereafter he named himself Elu, in direct mockery of Eru, and proclaimed himself Lord of Beleriand.

Elu forever sought to undo God's work, just as Satan did. He caused unrest between Quendi and Naucor, he stole, he denied aid to the needy. He even declared war upon factions of the Noldor, ambassadors of the Valar, and of Eru himself, who set foot upon the West.

Now, the startling thing is that, if the real Eru had not stepped in, Elu would have succeeded in his goals. Luckily, Eru places the Dwarves upon Arda, and Elu fell for the trap - his evil heart led to war, and the destruction of his empire. Finally he was slain, and the Eldar removed to Aman, where Eru could keep close watch over them.

So we see how Thingol represents Satan, seeking to supplant God himself, and forever scheming his overthrow. We see how he mocks the Lord, and how his black heart is the end of him. The few that go to his side - such as Melkor - also end up being destroyed and cast out of the World forever.

Gothmog · 10-23-2005, 12:30 PM

Oh, I've always seen Melkor as the fallen angel. You now, he started off as one of the Valar, brother and equal to the King of Valar. One of the (if not the) mightiest of the Valar aka Angels. But then fell into darkness and now tries with any means to destroy what's good. Lord of lies and deception (which Sauron later developed even further), the foe of the world.

But now everything seems so clear. Thingol, that evil, wretched creature. Was it maybe him, or rather his spirit, who made Melkor revolt against Eru in the first place? Who knows...Poor Melian.

ohtatyaro · 10-24-2005, 04:47 AM

It is in Mirth?! And I thought it was serious and made a long post in return. You made me waste halfhour furiously typing. Evil short guy!

10-13-2005, 01:59 PM	#1
the guy who be short Shadowed Prince Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: Thulcandra Posts: 2,343	Allegory in Tolkien With a work as grand, as sophisticated, as absorbing as Tolkien's, there can of course be no question that there is much allegory. How could a non-allegoric world ever be so appealing to the masses Tolkien reaches to? Of course, the Legendarium (and, to please Davem, the Hobbit too) is extensive, and could not possibly be limited to being representative of merely one allegory. I propose that there are several subtle meanings woven into the tale, and beseech you all to take up arms, preferably holding pens, and delve into these. One of the characters that sticks in my mind as being clearly allegoric of the real world is Strider, or to give him his former name, Trotter. Trotter, it is clear, is simply a slurring of Trotsky, who this character represents. Apart from the similarities of name, what else supports this theory? There is of course the obvious fact that Trotter is forced to live in exile. The return of the Trotter, as the last book was originally called, reveals Tolkien's Trotskyist sympathies - obviously, he wished that Trotsky could return to the USSR and wrest power from Stalin. Who then is Stalin? The exiler, of course. This is represented by the House of the Stewards, in particular Denethor, the manic leader who, by means of the Palantir, communicates with and deals with those who should be his enemies, ie, the dark forces of Sauron, representative of fascism and capitalism. So then, the entire tale of the Ring is simply a semi-allegoric, semi-alternative historic story. Trotter returns to Gondor - a vast land a world apart from the Shire, thus the USSR - to spread proletariat revolution and dethrone Stalinethor. Seizing power by means of this popular revolution, he restores fair rule and deliberately destroys the Palantir via which Stalinethor communicated with Sauron, showing his refusal to deal with capitalist powers. In the end, he nobly goes to war, despite the odds, to defend his ideal. Obviously, then, the Lord of the Rings is simply a novel exploring forms of communism, the value of various government styles, etc. More specifically, it sets in print the alternative history Tolkien so wanted to happen. What other examples of allegory have you found in this intensely allegoric world? Last edited by the guy who be short; 10-13-2005 at 02:01 PM. Reason: typos

10-13-2005, 02:13 PM	#2
Bergil Wight Join Date: Aug 2005 Location: the Lepetomaine Gambling Casino For The Insane Posts: 157	To my mind "allegory" is why I don't like cats. __________________ I support...something.

10-23-2005, 05:14 AM	#3
Oroaranion Haunting Spirit Join Date: Dec 2003 Location: Dol Amroth Posts: 94	so if the whole book is about Stalin and Trotsky, in allegory, where is Lenin? and what about Krushchev, Stalin's successor. and then who are the other world leaders of the time, the Churchills and the Roosevelts. think about it, guy who be short. you should know that i have an immense knowledge of the USSR. __________________ I go to my fathers. And even in their mighty company I shall not now be ashamed. I felled the black serpent. A grim morn, and a glad day, and a golden sunset!

10-23-2005, 11:30 AM	#5
the guy who be short Shadowed Prince Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: Thulcandra Posts: 2,343	Christian Parallels To deny the Christian parallels in Tolkien would be the pinnacle of foolishness. The man himself proclaimed the works as "consciously [Christian] in the revision." One of the key parts of the Bible mythos is the Fallen Angel tale, and it stands to reason that this would make it into Tolkien. It is, however, of immense interest that the Fallen character in Tolkien is not a power, but one of the Lesser Children: Elu Thingol. Though it seems a little unlikely at first glance, this theory has sufficient evidence to be supported by many Tolkienologists, and the evidence speaks for itself. Firstly, let us consider Thingol's nature. He was one of the Four High Kings of the Quendi, and in a position of strength. This means he was automatically an important character, and one with potential to Fall. This is clearly signified by his ominous name - Greymantle; grey here signifies impurity. Elwe's downfall began with the refusal of the Summons of the Valar. Though he feigned concordance with their will, his heart was set against the removal of the Quendi from the first, willing instead his own realms in Middle Earth. However, he decided to march his followers to the West nonetheless, out of desire to be removed from the other Quendi, who could rival his power. After the march, Elwe halted in Beleriand, thinking to feign confusion and claim he was lost, when he was struck by luck. For there, he met Melian, and this was the moment of the Fall. For by his dark magic, he enticed one of the children of Eru himself, and forced himself upon her, and bound her to him. So it was that he perverted that which should have been good. Thereafter he named himself Elu, in direct mockery of Eru, and proclaimed himself Lord of Beleriand. Elu forever sought to undo God's work, just as Satan did. He caused unrest between Quendi and Naucor, he stole, he denied aid to the needy. He even declared war upon factions of the Noldor, ambassadors of the Valar, and of Eru himself, who set foot upon the West. Now, the startling thing is that, if the real Eru had not stepped in, Elu would have succeeded in his goals. Luckily, Eru places the Dwarves upon Arda, and Elu fell for the trap - his evil heart led to war, and the destruction of his empire. Finally he was slain, and the Eldar removed to Aman, where Eru could keep close watch over them. So we see how Thingol represents Satan, seeking to supplant God himself, and forever scheming his overthrow. We see how he mocks the Lord, and how his black heart is the end of him. The few that go to his side - such as Melkor - also end up being destroyed and cast out of the World forever.

10-23-2005, 12:30 PM	#6
Gothmog Shade of Carn Dûm Join Date: Apr 2004 Location: Where I lay my head is home Posts: 421	Oh, I've always seen Melkor as the fallen angel. You now, he started off as one of the Valar, brother and equal to the King of Valar. One of the (if not the) mightiest of the Valar aka Angels. But then fell into darkness and now tries with any means to destroy what's good. Lord of lies and deception (which Sauron later developed even further), the foe of the world. But now everything seems so clear. Thingol, that evil, wretched creature. Was it maybe him, or rather his spirit, who made Melkor revolt against Eru in the first place? Who knows...Poor Melian. __________________ Three switched witches watch three Swatch watch switches. Which switched witch watch which Swatch watch switch? He who breaks a thing to find out what it is has left the path of wisdom ~Lurker...

10-24-2005, 04:47 AM	#7
ohtatyaro Wight Join Date: Jul 2004 Location: here, there, everywhere... Posts: 121	Sarcasm? It was all a joke?!!! It is in Mirth?! And I thought it was serious and made a long post in return. You made me waste halfhour furiously typing. Evil short guy! __________________ Reading this sig costs three Galleons, nine Sickles, and a Knut. Pay up!