Last Battle - The Barrow-Downs Discussion Forum

Turin Turambar · 05-19-2002, 01:37 PM

I've heard of the last battle when Melkor comes from the Doors of Night and everything but I've never read it (or I don't remember reading it) if someone could tell me where I could read it I would appreciate it. [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img]

Orald · 05-19-2002, 02:03 PM

There isn't a story written about the Last Battle. There is this thing called the Second Doom of Mandos. And Mandos says that when the world is old the Valar will be all tired, so Morgoth jumps at the chance and enters Arda again and does a whole lot of damage. There a couple different versions of it in different books and I believe Tolkien ended up not using it. The version I am most familiar with is in The Lost Road and Other Writings: HoME 5

Turin Turambar · 05-19-2002, 02:15 PM

Thanks a bunch Durelen

Lindolirian · 05-19-2002, 08:29 PM

There's something about it here at the Annals of Arda: http://www.annalsofarda.dk/annals-of...les/Battle.htm
click on Prophecy of the Last Battle.

[ May 19, 2002: Message edited by: Lindolirian ]

Joy · 05-19-2002, 10:22 PM

Thank you for that link. I needed that info for my fan-fic. It will end with the last battle against Melkor.

BTW, this is my 700th post!!!!

Orald · 05-19-2002, 11:38 PM

Just to clarify, I believe it was Tolkien's intension to discard the whole final battle idea. In later versions, Morgoth was actually killed, and his broken body thrown into the void, quite a change from the former versions.

piosenniel · 05-19-2002, 11:51 PM

Quote:

Just to clarify, I believe it was Tolkien's intension to discard the whole final battle idea. In later versions, Morgoth was actually killed, and his broken body thrown into the void, quite a change from the former versions.

Can you tell me where these later versions might be found? Or, at least, who kills Morgoth & how? Thanks!

Child of the 7th Age · 05-20-2002, 12:10 PM

You know, this raises another question. I don't know if the "latest" revision of Tolkien's writings were always the "best" or the most true to the spirit of the entire mythology. For example, near the end of his life, Tolkien experimented with a round earth version of the mythology rather than the earlier origin as a flat earth. I actually prefer the latter.

However, I'd also really appreciate further information on the idea of killing off Morgath. Thanks. sharon, the 7th age hobbit

Turin Turambar · 05-20-2002, 04:25 PM

Thanks, Lindolirian, for the link. I've always been curious in the last battle but never saw anything about it. I never read HoME.

Orald · 05-21-2002, 02:40 AM

When we talk canon here it has to be made clear that the Silmarillion is not canonical because it was not written entirely by JRRT, we do not know when he stops writing and CT starts 'editing'. So if we wanted to get technical, as long as it isn't in conflict with LotR it could potentially be ok, the problem arises when there are many versions, the only thing we can say is that the latest version is probably the most correct to Tolkien's final vision.

Orald · 05-21-2002, 02:54 AM

From Myths Transformer, the same place you will find that wacky round earth theory, Tolkien was a madman if you ask me. Anyway, here is the quote:

Quote:

The war was successful, and ruin was limited to the small (if beautiful) region of Beleriand. Morgoth was thus actually made captive in physical form, and in that form taken as a mere criminal to Aman and delivered to Námo Mandos as judge - and executioner. He was judged, and eventually taken out of the Blessed Realm and executed: that is killed like one of the Incarnates.

Forgot to give a shout out to my brotha, Sharku. Hawla!

[ May 21, 2002: Message edited by: Durelen ]

***Sharkû*** · 05-21-2002, 05:30 AM

"Myths TransformeR"?!
Someone is apparently having aftermaths from Bruce's last avatar.

Baran · 05-21-2002, 06:17 AM

Maybe a bit out of topic, but wasn't arda first flat, then made round when Valinor was removed and M-E transformed (when the 3. age began)?

05-19-2002, 01:37 PM	#1
Turin Turambar Pile O'Bones Join Date: Nov 2001 Location: U.S.A Posts: 24	Last Battle I've heard of the last battle when Melkor comes from the Doors of Night and everything but I've never read it (or I don't remember reading it) if someone could tell me where I could read it I would appreciate it. [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img] __________________ "Yea, I will drink thy blood gladly, that so I may forget the blood of Beleg my master, and the blood of Brandir slain unjustly. I will slay thee swiftly." The sword Gurthang

05-19-2002, 02:15 PM	#3
Turin Turambar Pile O'Bones Join Date: Nov 2001 Location: U.S.A Posts: 24	Thanks a bunch Durelen __________________ "Yea, I will drink thy blood gladly, that so I may forget the blood of Beleg my master, and the blood of Brandir slain unjustly. I will slay thee swiftly." The sword Gurthang

05-19-2002, 08:29 PM	#4
Lindolirian World's Tallest Hobbit Join Date: Nov 2001 Location: Where the view is long Posts: 2,117	There's something about it here at the Annals of Arda: http://www.annalsofarda.dk/annals-of...les/Battle.htm click on Prophecy of the Last Battle. [ May 19, 2002: Message edited by: Lindolirian ] __________________ 'They say that the One will himself enter into Arda, and heal Men and all the Marring from the beginning to the end."

05-19-2002, 10:22 PM	#5
Joy Spirit of a Warrior Join Date: Feb 2002 Location: Wandering Posts: 1,012	Thank you for that link. I needed that info for my fan-fic. It will end with the last battle against Melkor. BTW, this is my 700th post!!!! __________________ God bless, Joy KingdomWarrior@hotmail.com http://kingdomWarrior.jlym.com As the hart panteth after the water brooks, so panteth my soul after thee, O God. My soul thirsteth for God, for the living God: when shall I come and appear before God?

05-20-2002, 12:10 PM	#8
Child of the 7th Age Spirit of the Lonely Star Join Date: Mar 2002 Posts: 5,133	You know, this raises another question. I don't know if the "latest" revision of Tolkien's writings were always the "best" or the most true to the spirit of the entire mythology. For example, near the end of his life, Tolkien experimented with a round earth version of the mythology rather than the earlier origin as a flat earth. I actually prefer the latter. However, I'd also really appreciate further information on the idea of killing off Morgath. Thanks. sharon, the 7th age hobbit __________________ Multitasking women are never too busy to vote.

05-19-2002, 02:03 PM	#2
Orald Shadow of Malice Join Date: Nov 2000 Location: right behind you Posts: 843	There isn't a story written about the Last Battle. There is this thing called the Second Doom of Mandos. And Mandos says that when the world is old the Valar will be all tired, so Morgoth jumps at the chance and enters Arda again and does a whole lot of damage. There a couple different versions of it in different books and I believe Tolkien ended up not using it. The version I am most familiar with is in The Lost Road and Other Writings: HoME 5

05-19-2002, 11:38 PM	#6
Orald Shadow of Malice Join Date: Nov 2000 Location: right behind you Posts: 843	Just to clarify, I believe it was Tolkien's intension to discard the whole final battle idea. In later versions, Morgoth was actually killed, and his broken body thrown into the void, quite a change from the former versions.

05-20-2002, 04:25 PM	#9
Turin Turambar Pile O'Bones Join Date: Nov 2001 Location: U.S.A Posts: 24	Thanks, Lindolirian, for the link. I've always been curious in the last battle but never saw anything about it. I never read HoME. __________________ "Yea, I will drink thy blood gladly, that so I may forget the blood of Beleg my master, and the blood of Brandir slain unjustly. I will slay thee swiftly." The sword Gurthang

05-21-2002, 02:40 AM	#10
Orald Shadow of Malice Join Date: Nov 2000 Location: right behind you Posts: 843	When we talk canon here it has to be made clear that the Silmarillion is not canonical because it was not written entirely by JRRT, we do not know when he stops writing and CT starts 'editing'. So if we wanted to get technical, as long as it isn't in conflict with LotR it could potentially be ok, the problem arises when there are many versions, the only thing we can say is that the latest version is probably the most correct to Tolkien's final vision.

05-21-2002, 05:30 AM	#12
*Sharkû* Hungry Ghoul Join Date: Jun 2000 Posts: 1,719	"Myths TransformeR"?! Someone is apparently having aftermaths from Bruce's last avatar.

05-21-2002, 06:17 AM	#13
Baran Haunting Spirit Join Date: Nov 2001 Location: Mordor/Lothlorien Posts: 71	Maybe a bit out of topic, but wasn't arda first flat, then made round when Valinor was removed and M-E transformed (when the 3. age began)?