Witch King - The Barrow-Downs Discussion Forum

Ardeth Bay · 10-06-2005, 10:43 AM

When Grond breaks the Gate of Minas Tirith, Angmar is described as riding in on a horse.
When he attacks Theoden, he is on the fell beast.
When does this change occur, because the transition isn't mentioned in the book.

Essex · 10-06-2005, 11:17 AM

So the WK leaves Gandalf behind:

Quote:

The darkness was breaking too soon, before the date that his Master had set for it: fortune had betrayed him for the moment, and the world had turned against him; victory was slipping from his grasp even as he stretched out his hand to seize it. But his arm was long. He was still in command, wielding great powers. King, Ringwraith, Lord of the Nazgûl, he had many weapons. He left the Gate and vanished.

Tolkien vaguely describes the WK moving to his Fell Beast, inasmuch as the text in bold below.

Quote:

Upon it sat a shape, black-mantled, huge and threatening. A crown of steel he bore, but between rim and robe naught was there to see, save only a deadly gleam of eyes: the Lord of the Nazgûl. To the air he had returned, summoning his steed ere the darkness failed, and now he was come again, bringing ruin, turning hope to despair, and victory to death

before the darkness failed - therefore STRAIGHT after the cock had crowed, because Dawn was arriving, and the darkness was 'failing'.
(of course you can read 'darkness has failed' as NOTHING to do with the Dawn of course, but then that's one of the reasons we have so many 'arguments' over what Tolkien's point was in certain parts of the book.......)

luthien-elvenprincess · 10-06-2005, 07:24 PM

Ardeth Bay, a warm welcome to the Downs! There is a thread in Novices and Newcomers entitled "Why did the Blank Captain Switch Rides?" that might interest you.

obloquy · 10-06-2005, 11:13 PM

Angmar is not the Witch-King's name. Welcome to the Downs.

**The Saucepan Man** · 10-07-2005, 02:15 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by obloquy

Angmar is not the Witch-King's name. Welcome to the Downs.

True. But it is nevertheless perfectly acceptable to refer to him as Angmar, as one might refer to the Duke of York as York or the Earl of Gloucester as Gloucester.

obloquy · 10-07-2005, 09:39 AM

disagreed.

**The Saucepan Man** · 10-07-2005, 10:42 AM

Disagreement noted and reciprocated.

obloquy · 10-07-2005, 11:41 AM

We should be politicians. KEKE

Kath · 10-07-2005, 11:46 AM

Quote:

True. But it is nevertheless perfectly acceptable to refer to him as Angmar, as one might refer to the Duke of York as York or the Earl of Gloucester as Gloucester.

Indeed. Shakespeare did it and since he is supposed to be a pioneer of the English language I think we can use his example!

obloquy · 10-07-2005, 11:59 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kath

Indeed. Shakespeare did it and since he is supposed to be a pioneer of the English language I think we can use his example!

That may be true, but Tolkien never used Angmar as a personal name.

**The Saucepan Man** · 10-07-2005, 12:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by obloquy

That may be true, but Tolkien never used Angmar as a personal name.

That may be true, but it doesn't follow that we can't.

Gurthang · 10-07-2005, 12:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by obloquy

That may be true, but Tolkien never used Angmar as a personal name.

Right. It is not the Witch King's formal name, but the name of his land.

Yet we all knew who Ardeth Bay was referring to. And in a not completely formal setting, such as here on the 'Downs, it should be perfectly acceptable.

Estelyn Telcontar · 10-07-2005, 12:20 PM

Please agree to disagree on that point and proceed with some actual discussion on the topic - thank you! Any further posts arguing the point will be deleted without notice.

10-06-2005, 10:43 AM	#1
Ardeth Bay Newly Deceased Join Date: Sep 2005 Posts: 10	Witch King When Grond breaks the Gate of Minas Tirith, Angmar is described as riding in on a horse. When he attacks Theoden, he is on the fell beast. When does this change occur, because the transition isn't mentioned in the book. __________________ Where is the horse and the rider? Where is the horn that was blowing? They have passed like rain on the mountain, like wind in the meadow; The days have gone down in the West behind the hills into shadow....

10-06-2005, 07:24 PM	#3
luthien-elvenprincess Ghost Prince of Cardolan Join Date: Jan 2004 Location: what are you doing here? did you come here to eat my popcorn? Posts: 1,031	Ardeth Bay, a warm welcome to the Downs! There is a thread in Novices and Newcomers entitled "Why did the Blank Captain Switch Rides?" that might interest you. __________________ York Peppermint Patties taste better than Pearson's Peppermint Patties! But, Junior Mints are the best!

10-07-2005, 10:42 AM	#7
The Saucepan Man Corpus Cacophonous Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: A green and pleasant land Posts: 8,390	Disagreement noted and reciprocated. __________________ Do you mind? I'm busy doing the fishstick. It's a very delicate state of mind!

10-07-2005, 12:20 PM	#13
Estelyn Telcontar Princess of Skwerlz Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: where the Sea is eastwards (WtR: 6060 miles) Posts: 7,500	Please agree to disagree on that point and proceed with some actual discussion on the topic - thank you! Any further posts arguing the point will be deleted without notice. __________________ 'Mercy!' cried Gandalf. 'If the giving of information is to be the cure of your inquisitiveness, I shall spend all the rest of my days in answering you. What more do you want to know?' 'The whole history of Middle-earth...'

10-06-2005, 11:13 PM	#4
obloquy Ghost Prince of Cardolan Join Date: Apr 2001 Location: WA Posts: 939	Angmar is not the Witch-King's name. Welcome to the Downs.

10-07-2005, 09:39 AM	#6
obloquy Ghost Prince of Cardolan Join Date: Apr 2001 Location: WA Posts: 939	disagreed.

10-07-2005, 11:41 AM	#8
obloquy Ghost Prince of Cardolan Join Date: Apr 2001 Location: WA Posts: 939	We should be politicians. KEKE