why middle earth

[feonor]

why does tolkien call it "middle" earth?. is it in the middle of something ? have you ever been thinking about it?

[malkatoj]

He could have called it 'Middle Mars'...or Jupiter...or perhaps Bob...

I want to live in Middle Bob.

[feonor]

i don't think tolkien use needless words. we can see it in his all sentences and descriptions. that's why did i ask.. there must be something ? isn't it?

[Kath]

You know I think I used to know this but it's just gone now. Possibly it had something to do with ME being between Valinor (heaven) and I don't know, the Void (hell)?

[feonor]

but in the beginning of the time there was no valinor in the middle earth.

[Rune Son of Bjarne]

Maybe it is simpley something he has taken from Nordic Mythology.

where there is Asgård (The home of the gods) Midgård (Middle Earth, The home of men) and Jotunheim (Home of the giants)

So maybe he just transfered a name for the world in witch men lived.

Besides i do think that this name for world of men, is the same in ancient english so it
makes perfect sense.

(It would not be the first time Tolkien took a name from Nordic Mythology. eks. Gandalf was the name of a dwarf in a tale)

[Gothmog]

Tolkiens great interest in Nordic Mythology is a fact and as Rune said, Middle Earth is a direct translation of Midgård.

"Gandalf the dwarf" was a character is the Icelandic (sp?) tale Snorres Edda if I'm not mistaken.

You could see this as copying others work, but I prefer the look at it as a way of connecting his work with old mythologies and create a foundation for a new mythology =) Many of the early texts he wrote is based on old celtic myths which through the years have been rewritten and edited to his own world (the notes in BoLT give hints of these connections to ancient english history).

All I wanted to say is that I agree with Rune Son of Bjarne thanks for your time...

[yavanna II]

Originally Posted by Rune Son of Bjarne

where there is Asgård (The home of the gods) Midgård (Middle Earth, The home of men) and Jotunheim (Home of the giants)

So maybe he just transfered a name for the world in witch men lived.

Hehe.. always thought ME was the world for the "dominion of men" thing, and Aman the place of the immortals...

Really, I agree with feonor that Tolkien never used useless words, so he used "middle" as the sorta border twixt the holies [the Ainur and Co.] and the villains [Melkor Morgoth and Co.]...

hehe...



~~~

[Bêthberry]

Middle-earth is also a word found in several Old English poems, which, if you know your Middle-earth well, you will know that Tolkien knew a thing or two about.

[Rune Son of Bjarne]

In old norse Midgår is l lying in the middle of the world. (I forgot to mention earlyier)

Originally Posted by Bêthberry

Middle-earth is also a word found in several Old English poems, which, if you know your Middle-earth well, you will know that Tolkien knew a thing or two about.

Of course you will find it used there, as a lot of words from the Scandinavian languages are the same as the old english. You remember there was great "culturel" exchange between England and Scandinavia back in the day's.

one of many exampels of words who are very much alike:

Attercop = Edderkop (spider in danish)

you will allso find simalaritys in the life of Turin and Sigmund Fafnersbane (Vølsung sagaen, it is practicualy a total re-writing)

the horse that brought the day was named Skinfaxe and the one that brought the night was Rimfaxe (

just some random things i could think of.

[Thinlómien]

you will allso find simalaritys in the life of Turin and Sigmund Fafnersbane (Vølsung sagaen, it is practicualy a total re-writing)

I, as a finn, have to point out also the significant similarities between the life of Turin and the story of Kullervo in Kalevala. I just wondered, is it coincidence that the story of Kullervo and Sigmund Fafnersbane are so similar? Finns and (other) nordic people have been interacting for such a long time, that legends and stories are (probably) spread by word of mouth.

[Gothmog]

Probably there's a lot of stories which are almost the same through out the scandinavian countries. We must remember that the boundaries of today was settled relative late. Finland belonged to Sweden until 1800- something, right Thin? And Denmark and Sweden has swapped parts of south Sweden(Skåne to me) a long time. And Norway has belonged to both Sweden and Denmark and so on... And even earlier there were no kingdoms. The separate areas were governed by some local chief.

But this does not stay in the nordic countries. The vikings raids through Europe left traces. For example are the scottish clans half irish, half vikings roughly expressed. When traveling in Scotland you recognize a lot of the old place names (for example I heard of a place called Kallwik or something like that and Kallvik=Cold Bay). Of course the myths, stories and language spread with the people.

What's interesting is the extent of the similarities between old English and for example old Swedish. If a swede reads a text in old english nowadays, he would understand a lot of words and probably the context. This is at least according to my father who has studied English and always been fond of both Celtic languages and Old English.

Unfortunately I don't know enough about the old legends and stories to comment on them separatly. But I do know that Mr T found much inspiration in these. As mentioned earlier: Gandalf, Shadowfax, maybe Turin. Probably the dwarfes as they're not unusual to find in the stories, and Middle Earth. And there's sure to be more of these things if we dig a little.

I just noticed that I made a slight mistake in my previous post here. Midgård is actually translated Middle Yard/Court but can be equaled with Middle Earth. That's the meaning of it.

But for more discussions about the Tolkien-Nordic connection we might nead an other thread. It would be really interesting to hear more about Kullervo-Turin-Sigmund Fafnersbane. But for now, that's all...

[Thinlómien]

Finland belonged to Sweden until 1800- something, right Thin?

Swedes came to Finland in the 12th century and Russia took over 1809. (I know, this is off-topic...)

[Frodo Baggins]

Ahh Lovely! Well, I shall tell you what I think.

Tolkien was a Medievaist is some ways, and a fan of Medieval literature. Throughout all Europe from probably the late Roman era or just after Rome fell and on through the Renaissance , "Middle-Earth" was a term, often poetical, for the world itself. The term came from the concept of having Heaven above, Hell below and Earth in the middle. In fact, the Mediterranian sea still preserves this name: Medi-terra-nea "Sea of Middle-Earth".

[Alcarillo]

Originally Posted by Frodo Baggins

The term came from the concept of having Heaven above, Hell below and Earth in the middle.

Norse mythology had something like that. The separate worlds hung on the great tree Yggdrasil, so that Middle-earth, Midgård, was litterally in the middle, between all the other worlds, progressively getting worse on the way down the tree and better on the way up. Please correct me if I'm wrong, Nordic members of the Downs. The worlds were on a tree, no?

Originally Posted by Frodo Baggins

In fact, the Mediterranian sea still preserves this name: Medi-terra-nea "Sea of Middle-Earth".

I always considered Mediterranean to rather mean "the sea in the middle of the land", with medi=middle, terra=land, meaning surrounded by land, as opposed to the oceans that encircled the land (these would be the Atlantic, Pacific, etc., surrounding the Europe/Africa/Asia world of the Romans and other peoples before America's discovery).

[Rune Son of Bjarne]

Originally Posted by Alcarillo

Norse mythology had something like that. The separate worlds hung on the great tree Yggdrasil, so that Middle-earth, Midgård, was litterally in the middle, between all the other worlds, progressively getting worse on the way down the tree and better on the way up. Please correct me if I'm wrong, Nordic members of the Downs. The worlds were on a tree, no?

Thats correct all nine worlds was on Yggdrasi.

In old english Middel-Earth was called middanġeard, later midden-erd or middel-erd
These are the same word as Midgard.

The word Mediterranean comes from two Latin stems, medi, middle, and terra, earth.

[Lalwendë]

Originally Posted by Gothmog

But this does not stay in the nordic countries. The vikings raids through Europe left traces. For example are the scottish clans half irish, half vikings roughly expressed. When traveling in Scotland you recognize a lot of the old place names (for example I heard of a place called Kallwik or something like that and Kallvik=Cold Bay). Of course the myths, stories and language spread with the people.

What's interesting is the extent of the similarities between old English and for example old Swedish. If a swede reads a text in old english nowadays, he would understand a lot of words and probably the context. This is at least according to my father who has studied English and always been fond of both Celtic languages and Old English.

What I find interesting is to take British maps and look at place names, as they reveal a great deal about the older inhabitants of that place. If you look at maps of Northern England you will see a lot of Norse/Danish influence in the names. I say Norse/Danish as the Norse Vikings primarily went to Dublin and Scotland (and the Isle of Man, which still has its ancient Viking Tynwald government) and only later came to the North west coast of England; the more widespread Viking influence on England was from the Danes.

[Gothmog]

We have concluded that Tolkien got his name from the old Nordic/Old English word for the world-Midgård/Midgard/Middanġeard etc. But the original question was: why middle-earth. This is only one half of the explanation, we still haven't discussed why he used the old Norse word for the world. One reason may be that he simply liked the old Norse tales and the mythology, but I don't find it very likely that he used that word out of coincidence. Simply taking a word he liked seems to simple.

Considering his skills in language and his interest in Norse myth's, we can assume that he knew the original meaning of the word and Middle-Eart implies that it's in the middle of something. So what is it in the middle of?

- Heaven (Valinor) and hell (the Void) as Kath proposed? (This is also close to the Norse meaning of the word) I dont' know about that one. The Void doesn't have that hellish look in my imagination, it's just the empty space outside the world.

- In the geographic middle? Maybe, the landmass surrounded by oceans, in the middle of the world.

- Middle=centre? Meaning in the centre of the world. Middle earth shows a geocentric conception to the world, as opposed to our own heliocentric picture of the world. And besides, this is the centre of the creation; this is where the Valar lives and this is what Eru created with the help of the song of Ainur. The view of the world in centre of everything, both in space and in the creation, was the dominating view in the "real" world for a long time, until science was evolved to the point when we realized this was in fact wrong (at least the geocentric picture). Could that be the solution, to name this pre-advanced-science world Middle Earth because the inhabitants believed that they were in the middle? And maybe thery were?

- Or, this was a word Tolkien liked without deeper meaning?

I don't know. But whatever the answer is, the fact that the concept Middle Earth already existed can't be neglected and of course played a role when Tolkien selected the name.

[feonor]

well well well. thanks everyone who spent their time for discussing this topic and thanks for your opinions.i learned a lot of things that i had'nt know .yes gothmog, the real question was why middle earth. maybe this was a word Tolkien liked but it is worth for discussing i think. i don't think it is a geographic middle but it could be the centre of the creation because long long time ago for about 2000 thousand years before people in our world believed in that our world was in the middle of emptiness(space). they believed this because it maked human special in all space. also it is aristotales theory until kepler and galileo ,people in the earth believed in it. so, maybe tolkien's world is the one special thing in the emptiness. why not?

[HerenIstarion]

Originally Posted by feanor

]years before people in our world believed in that our world was in the middle of emptiness(space). they believed this because it maked human special in all space

You are both right and not. For one, since Ptolemaic times it was known that Earth is not the center of the Universe. For two, from Tolkien's point of view, it is Men (and Elves) - Children of Ilúvatar that make World special, not vice versa - not World's spatial location within whole of the Arda that makes Children special. Indeed, it is never said the World is central (spatially) in Arda, to the contrary:

Now the Children of Ilúvatar are Elves and Men, the Firstborn and the Followers. And amid all the splendours of the World, its vast halls and spaces, and its wheeling fires, Ilúvatar chose a place for their habitation in the Deeps of Time and in the midst of the innumerable stars. And this habitation might seem a little thing to those who consider only the majesty of the Ainur, and not their terrible sharpness; as who should take the whole field of Arda for the foundation of a pillar and so raise it until the cone of its summit were more bitter than a needle; or who consider only the immeasurable vastness of the World, which still the Ainur are shaping, and not the minute precision to which they shape all things therein. But when the Ainur had beheld this habitation in a vision and had seen the Children of Ilúvatar arise therein, then many of the most mighty among them bent all their thought and their desire towards that place

Emphasis mine.

But it is central because of the strife of Good and Evil that it is a place, a focus of.

And inside the World (which, though they are now 'outside circles of the World', still counts Aman and Valinor as its parts) Middle Earth is habitation of Men for reasons provided above.

(By the way, the idea of 'Middleness' is paralleled in many cultures, not in Norse only. For Georgian, it is Qvesknely, Shuasknely, Zetsa - roughly, Lowerworld, Middle-Earth, Heaven - habitations, correspondingly, of devils, men and angels - vestige of heathen times incorporated into Christianity)

[Glofin]

Well, HerenIstarion beat me to it. I agree with him. I know for certain in Western culture, not only just Norse, but in others, including Celtic cultures our world was called Middle Earth or something to that effect. The world of mortals was always seen as a world between worlds. We were not in the golden realms of the Gods, nor in the world of the dead, therefore we were in the middle. It is simply something all European peoples have in common. So to sum it up in two words I would say, Cultural Expression. It is the way we saw (or how some of us still do ) the world. It's that simple.

~ Glofin

[Elu Ancalime]

I find it very odd that nobody mentioned this! Well Gothmog did, but in a different way...

Geography?

Besides the historical and phililogical aspect, I think the easiest way to put it was, Middle-Earth, was roughly in the middle of the earth.

!!!

According to The Atlas of Middle-Earth, the general layout of Arda(Ambar anyway) went:

Aman was the Western continent.

Than Numenore was the Atlantic island in the western sea, but that took up little space.

Middle-Earth in the North and center of the world. Ranging from the Dor Daedlos (Forodwaith) that apparently touched the Northern boundry of Ekkaia, south the the giant-harad-peninsula-subcontinent-thing. (africa of Arda) but then in the southeast, i assume the lake where Almaren was and the Ringl mearged and created the Mediterranian-like sea. (as aforementioned, medi[middle], terra[earth]

Dark Land(s) [to the direct south when used specifically, but still in the center)

And the southern part of the land that was isolated from Middle-Earth was simply named Dark Land(s), and while originally all the Children were in the north-east of ME, the Numenoreans anchored their, for a short time anyway) So named Dark Land because there probably wasnt a large Children populace, although it appears their were mountains and forests and such. And since all the Fathers of Dwarves awoke in ME, their would be no dwarves.

Empty Lands

This continent is like the eastern counterpart of Aman. E of A offers:

A mysterious region mentioned only once by Tolkien. The Empty Lands are important because they apparently lay beyond the eastern boundaries of Middle-earth, and so give a vital clue to the structure of Arda.

The 'structure of Arda' is interesting. The only mentions of this land, are that there is a large mountain rang spanning in symmetry with the Pelori, and what looks like in size also. They are called the Walls of the Sun, and also the lands called the Burnt Lands, reffering to the fact that the Gates of Morning were nearby, and perhaps if the Sun 'set,' they it would heat the hill. The Atlas of Middle-Earth shows the Empty Lands as being completely symmetrical in geograpgy, at least closer to the coast. Even Everwhite (cant spell it in elvish from memory ) has a counterpart, named Kalamore, or Kalmore. And it supposedly means 'Sun-Rising Hill.

The 'Equator' of Middle-Earth seems to be called the Girdle of Arda, and runs through the two mountains. I wonder how in relation this affects ME.

So middle earth is in the geographic center of the middle of the earth, the flat part of it anyway.

So there's my reasoning(since hobbits and elves wouldnt know about Norse etc, they needed a reason too)

While Tolkien used Nore and OE to create words and such, taking on the fanatical point of view would be opposite. The Norse language would come from the languages of the Elder Days, unless they were sundered like the Druadain or something. If you asked an elf or man 'Why Middle-Earth?,' they wouldn't tell you 'because Mr Tolkien did this.....'
Even though it is a Norse term, the words 'Middle' and 'Earth' were not words used by one or a few cultures. A language would have to use the word middle, and since they all lived on some land that was big, Earth would be the word for it. I think its really just a matter of using the words together for an adjetive-noun-Proper Noun or something like that.

but I think it came in second to the inspiration from old english/old norse

Well i didnt say (or mean to imply) that it had nothing to do with Norse/OE, but that this was the former reasoning.
________
Extreme Vaporizers

[Gil-Galad]

the quick anwser without all this mumbo-jumbo would be


Why Not?

[Rune Son of Bjarne]

Originally Posted by Elu Ancalime

So there's my objective reasoning(since hobbits and elves wouldnt know about Norse etc, they needed a reason too)

What you say makes sence, but knowing how much Tolkien uses old english and old Norse I find it hard to belive that he was sitting not knowing what to call these lands. As he is sitting looking at his map, suddenly it strikes him: What should I call this part of the earth (arda) wich lies in the middle, right between Aman and the empty lands. . Middleland. . .Encircling earth. . . Heureka! Middle Earth.

Of cours Tolkien would not call it middle earth if it was utter nonsence, (geographical) but I think it came in second to the inspiration from old english/old norse.

Miðgarðr(Midgård) ----->Middangeard -------->Middel-erde -----------> Middle-earth.

I have never seen anything objective yet and you post sertanly did not change that.

[The Squatter of Amon Rûdh]

I should like to point out at this point that OE middangeard is recorded before the earliest stage of Scandinavian settlement in England, and a matter of centuries before the earliest written occurrence of ON midgarð, so it would be irresponsible to assume that the Norse word influenced the English one. If there was any influence of the Old Norse word upon its Old English counterpart it probably took place during the transition into Middle English, although I prefer to think of the two words as parallel yet separate forms. The suggestion that either developed from the other is tenuous indeed, and it is much more likely that they simply share a common ancestor in Primitive Germanic.

Since Tolkien's primary interest was in England, I would argue that he has used the English term rather than the Norse, although he does draw inspiration from Old Norse language and literature elsewhere in his writings. It is certainly interesting that such places as 'Middle-earth' and 'Mirkwood' appear in all of the Germanic languages of which we have an extensive record. Perhaps the mythology, like the languages, has a common ancestor, which seems to be what Tolkien was suggesting by the projection of these terms into the far past.

Elu Ancalime is right to point out that the inhabitants of Tolkien's Middle-earth would not have known Old English and Old Norse. However, that did not stop Tolkien from using words from those languages, adapting their spelling and writing them into the philology of the elven tongues. Perhaps the oldest name in the Silmarillion is Eärendil, which Tolkien first found in the Old English poem Crist I, but before it could be incorporated into his legends, he had to develop a complete etymology of the word in the Elven language of the time (Gnomish, I should think, in 1916). Certainly in the earlier development of the legendarium, Tolkien seems to have been trying to integrate his legends with the unrecorded early stages of those we know from the Kalevala, Snorra Edda, Sæmundar Edda, Widsið and other medieval sources. Tolkien regularly re-interpreted ancient Germanic mythology in terms of his own, but in 'Middle-earth' he had found a term so universal that it needed no alteration. This is particularly true of this term, since he first published a use of it in The Hobbit, which wears its influences very much on its sleeve.

[Rune Son of Bjarne]

I dont know when midgarð was first written, but it is assumed to have been used atleast since the 5th century. . . anyway The first reports of viking raids is in 787 and
middangeard is first used in 750. Given the little time in between the incedents and the fact that middangeard is used in Beowulf, clearly shows me that it is the same word.

[The Squatter of Amon Rûdh]

I don't dispute that they are the same word, but it is very dangerous to imply that the Old English form has developed from Old Norse, particularly since Old English was a written language, and middangeard a recorded term even before the first recorded meeting between the two cultures. Since Old English and Old Norse are both descended from the postulated Primitive Germanic, it makes much more sense to assume that the same word developed in two different directions rather than jumping from one language to the other. Notwithstanding that objection, Old Norse literature is at its oldest nearly three-hundred years younger than that of Old English, which makes any such development nonsensical in any case.

In terms of cultural contact, we should not consider the coastal raids of the eighth century as major factors in the development of the English language, particularly minor skirmishes like Portland. Real cultural exchange does not take place between raiders and raided, but between two cultures living alongside one another, as in England after the Scandinavian settlement began in the latter half of the ninth century. It would be a poor historian indeed who projected all the results of centuries of Scandinavian conquest and settlement back to the first recorded Viking landfall in England.

That 'Middle-earth' is a term that existed throughout the Germanic world is reason enough for Tolkien to have used it, in fact I think that was the main reason for his use of it. However, although he mentions the Old Norse form of the word in his letters, he primarily describes it in terms of Old and Middle English, which suggests to me that this was his source for the term.

In terms of influence, the EME midden-erd shows signs of Scandinavian phonology, but the Old English certainly does not. There can be no doubt that they are descended from the same ancestor, but neither is the descendent of the other.

[Rune Son of Bjarne]

Originally Posted by The Squatter of Amon Rûdh

In terms of cultural contact, we should not consider the coastal raids of the eighth century as major factors in the development of the English language, particularly minor skirmishes like Portland. Real cultural exchange does not take place between raiders and raided, but between two cultures living alongside one another, as in England after the Scandinavian settlement began in the latter half of the ninth century. It would be a poor historian indeed who projected all the results of centuries Scandinavian conquest and settlement back to the first recorded Viking landfall in England.

(this will be a bit off topic)

You seem to assume that there is a great differnce between the Vikings and the Scandinavian people who settled in England, but fact is that the Vikings mostley was normal people who allso participated in these raids. It was these folk who settled in England, Normandy and Vinland (Newfoundland and other parts of North America) The Vikings were not just pirates, but allso traders.

We seem to have agreed that it is the same word, but I have some last comments. Is it not so that the Anglo-Saxons originate frome the inhabitans of Saxony and Schleswig ? The latter was "danish" until 1864, Is this not where the first capital of Denmark was build. (Hedeby = Haithabu = town on the heat)
What I am saying that the inhabitans of England was partial descendants of the Jutes, is there not a chance that they could speak before crossing the North Sea?

In any case you a right, we are all Germanic tribes and our language clearly originate frome the same place.

[The Squatter of Amon Rûdh]

I tend to shy away from the word 'Viking', since in Old Norse (at least in Old Icelandic) it does have roughly the meaning of Mod E 'pirate', or perhaps 'freebooter'. I prefer 'Scandinavian', because it says more about the culture of the Norse settlers in England than does 'Viking'.

The Angles did indeed originate among the Geats (according to Bede and supported by references to the Geats, particularly in Beowulf). That doesn't mean, though, that the Vikings of the eighth century were there when the Angles left. Rather the two peoples descended from the same early-sixth-century people, tribes from southern Scandinavia, modern-day Holland and northern Germany. We cannot simply say that these early people were Danish just because some of them lived in what is now Denmark (or was in the late nineteenth century). When they lived there, no such thing as Denmark existed, and I might as well say that they were English because their descendents also founded Mercia and Wessex. The point is that the people you have mentioned are the very same common Germanic ancestors whom we presume to have spoken Primitive Germanic.

Anyway, it's just such an over-arching history that seems to have attracted Tolkien. He followed all the branches of Germanic, including what little Gothic we know, and seems to have tried to imagine what the legends would be like that gave rise to the stories and folklore of that can be traced throughout that linguistic family. That his writing developed far beyond this idea does not alter the debt he owes to his medieval forebears, nor the ultimate aptness of 'Middle-earth' as the stage for his fiction.

[Rune Son of Bjarne]

I will not claim they were danes, as the danes lived in southern Sweden at this point. For some reason we chose to take name after this tribe in stead of the Jutes and others.

I did not mean that Schleswig was inhabited by Danes because of the fact that we owned it untill 1864. The thing that is interesting is that the first danish king(Gorm the old) had his capital here around the year 900. (this is not a legendm it is the first person we know for a fact rueld what was to become the modern Denmark.) In Deeds of the Danes written in 11?? we are told of lots of kings before Gorm, but we dont know for sure. I never said that all english people was danes I was just pointing out that the word proberbly originated from northern Germany/Southern Denmark.

No americans are not danes as the daneish/norwegian/islandic people who settled there all died, just like they all did in Greenland. (allthough they lived for centuries at Greenland)

No it was not the chinese or Columbus who discoverd america, but the Scandinavians. (well after the native americans of course. . .)

I will stop now as it has nothing at all to do with why Tolkien choose the name middle-earth