Bashing: vb, hostile comment directed at a particular individual or group...

[The Only Real Estel]

Bashing. It is a controversial topic but we all know that it does happen. We may all be tired of it or we may not, but I think that this thread is genuinely needed.

This thread is to hash out what exactly we all think bashing means. Is bashing the same as criticism or is bashing more in the sense of the dictionary meaning-hostile comments, or criticism? Seriously, I think this should be discussed.

This thread should not turn into a conversation on any one issue with the movie, issues can be brought up in the interest of giving examples and explaining but we don't need to dwell on something that there are other threads for.

The Saucepan Man is someone who thinks, for the most part, that listing dislikes of the LotR movies is bashing.

Boromir88 is someone who thinks, for the most part, that you can intelligently discuss dislikes & bashing only takes place when you are hostile on a consistent basis towards the film.

I want to know what everyone thinks. Don't just cop out with a "I believe everything Saucie said", give your opinion, give examples. I know I'm not so close-minded that I can't change my thoughts on the usage of the word. That said, let us begin.

In my opinion, bashing is being intensely critical and/or overly hostile. I think that it is entirely possible to intelligently discuss dislikes of the film without going overboard [bashing]. Others have different opinions.

Lets here them.

[Eomer of the Rohirrim]

I thought this was what you were doing TORE.

I criticise the films (a lot). Being critical should incorporate intelligence and fairness.

I bash the films at times too, but that's when I'm being silly and not too serious. For example, I might say '"A diversion" – wonderful...' and mutter something inaudible. That's probably bashing. But if anyone then wanted to be a bit more serious, I can back up my complaints in a fair and reasoned manner. What I was doing was passive bashing. This sort of bashing demonstrates laziness, but it is not hostile.

But Tigerlily's bashers – for anyone not familiar with these people, they only complain at all times and about everything, and seem to take pleasure out of it – are different. They are hostile and, though their criticism can be reasoned, they are still bashing the films.

Criticism with hostility, then, is proper bashing; but not all bashing is the same. There is passive and lazy bashing too: it is not properly critical and not hostile. There's my answer.

[Boromir88]

For those interested, here's the Tigerlilly Bashers Eomer speaks of.

And here are examples of what I consider bashing...

Here

and here

There's more I can dig up, but that should be good.

What I don't consider bashing I will post later, I must get going. Supper time.

This should make my stance more clear. Estel, haha, thought you might do this.

[The Only Real Estel]

Posted by Eomer:

I thought this was what you were doing TORE.

Posted by Boromir88:

Estel, haha, thought you might do this.

Blast, I have been foreseen! Either you two have been hacking into the 'shadowed corners of my mind' or my fellow 'downers just know me too darn well.

[Boromir88]

I think you're just one of the easier ones to predict, after all, you do sound like Darth Vader.

Boromir88 is someone who thinks, for the most part, that you can intelligently discuss dislikes & bashing only takes place when you are hostile on a consistent basis towards the film.

I must say you're better at explaining how I think what bashing is and isn't than I would be able to. Like I promised, what I don't call bashing is expressing dislikes about the movies. In the thread Most hated parts of LOTR (posts 29-31), me and Essex get into a discussion of the beating Gandalf gives to Denethor. We say what we think, Essex shows textual support on what Jackson might have gotten the Denethor is a punching bag inspiration, I say he overused it. Discussions over, we expressed our opinions and moved on, that's what I would classify intellegent debate. We have our own set of opinions, vocalize them, and move on. I dislike a certain part of the movie, another doesn't or vice versa, and we move on.

I consider bashing to be the links I gave to the posts above. People who just say they hate the movies and they're no good. That may very well be someone's opinion, but they don't go on to explain why they don't like the movies. They simply degrade it to try to get attention and cause strife to those who enjoy it. Their sole purpose is to degrade the movie to get attention, not explain and support why they don't like it.

So, bashing, under my thinking is, those who degrade the movie with the sole purpose to grab attention and try to cause hurt to the people who like the movie. There's nothing intellegently enlightening about their posts at all, just a bunch of crap saying how they hate the movies.

Again, "intellegent debate (to me)" is discussing different opinions, and both sides support their stance, certainly isn't movie bashing for the one that doesn't like a certain part of the movie. Just don't like that part and I explain why.

[Son of Númenor]

The Saucepan Man is someone who thinks, for the most part, that listing dislikes of the LotR movies is bashing.

I don't think that is true.

[The Saucepan Man]

Thanks SoNo. Yes, that is rather an over-simplification of my view.

I have no problem with intelligent debate about the films. I have engaged in it myself many times, expressing both praise and criticism for various aspects of them.

But there is a tendency here to harp on and on about this or that "disliked" aspect of the films. Sometimes it's intelligent debate but quite often it is simply criticism for the sake of it. And even when backed up by sensible reasoning, when people make the same criticisms over and over again whenever the opportunity presents itself, I call that bashing. Or repeated knocking, if you like.

There is also a tendency on this forum to focus on the criticisms and gloss over the films' many good points. Which is human nature perhaps, as controversy is always more likely to provoke people to put pen to paper (or finger to keyboard) than satisfaction. But it does tend to give a certain impression of people's opinions of the films which is perhaps not always the correct one.

Ultimately, though, I have no problem with critical analysis, bashing or a combination of both. It's just, as I said in one of the other threads, it's so last year.

[alatar]

Been giving this some thought, and now wonder if I really am guilty of the dreaded bashing. Maybe I am; maybe not. I'm open to other's POV, as a more humble part of me would say "yea" while another more arrogant side would say "no way." That almost sounds like a canonicity thread where bashing could be in the basher or in the bashing observer.

Anyway, as noted, what sent me to this forum, which has been really entertaining and a joy, was the Gandalf vs Witch-King ROTK:EE scene. That one scene made me do something that I'd never done before, which is to post to an internet forum (aren't y'all ever so lucky...). I had felt betrayed by PJ. That scene made no sense, belittled my favorite character and got me a bit annoyed with the whole ROTK movie (sorry, but that's just how this brain works). I was not a fan of PJ's after that.

So I started posting, and got into a few interesting discussions with Essex. Seemingly he and I were born to take different sides of an issue, especially when it came to the movies and how the movies compared to the books. He suggested (along with others) many times that I just let the whole thing go and watch the movie for entertainment. What was he talking about!?! Couldn't he see that a crime had been committed? Ahhhh!

Finally I let go. It was seeing others POV that really helped. Plus the venting surely was therapeutic. I got to transmit not only my logical criticisms but also some of the venom (I'll be honest) to an audience who at least understood what I was talking about. Other Downers felt just like me; some didn't. And PJ did a great job, yet still there are things which were wrong, were not what I would have done or were just silly. But it's okay. I can point out some of the things that internally make no sense, discuss scene minutia, argue either side of a discussion - whatever. The emotion is gone, and so now I post for fun - and what else would I do at 'work?'

Anyway, to stop rambling, I may have been in the TigRanter's Room once, but through this forum, I was able to leave.

[Essex]

Boromir and Alatar - Good points, and I enjoyed our discussions on various points you noted above. I like to take the opposite of the Devil's advocate point (don't know if there's a term for this?) wherever possible to defend the movies. Now there are times when I might not totally agree with the thing I'm defending (shock, horror) - but I do this to assist in stopping the threads becoming Bashing - Bashing to me is a thread saying how bad a particular bit of the moives (or all of them) are with no 'plus' points or arguments against this - If we have other people coming back with answers to these 'negative' views, then we have intelligent debate.

but, as I said in the thread itself, to call a thread 'What are your most hated parts of the movies' is not helping itself against being called Bashing!!!!!!

[Boromir88]

Thanks SoNo. Yes, that is rather an over-simplification of my view.~SpM

I think Estel was drawing off of the recent cases which seem to be the thing. But, I do remember way back when believe it or not our roles were switched. I said I did not mind Jackson's treatment of Denethor, because it heightens and dramatisizes Aragorn's arrival and taking the throne. Where I remember you saying something like you did not agree with Jackson on this issue. So, now that I think back more, I agree, but I'll be honest I think earlier cases have come off as anything against the movies is movie bashing.

But there is a tendency here to harp on and on about this or that "disliked" aspect of the films. Sometimes it's intelligent debate but quite often it is simply criticism for the sake of it. And even when backed up by sensible reasoning, when people make the same criticisms over and over again whenever the opportunity presents itself, I call that bashing. Or repeated knocking, if you like.

I disagree with this, now I don't go around looking for threads where I can criticize the film, but if there's a thread asking about this particular scene (for instance as Alatar said the Gandalf vs. The Witch-King, or the Mouth of Sauron) of course I will bring up what I have a problem with up.

As you say "repeated knocking," to me this means continually drilling a point down in the same thread. Another makes there's, I may respond to it a few times, but don't hammer it down other's throats. Make my point and go. That's how I take "repeated knocking," but of course we all have different opinions. If there's a thread discussing this very thing of "bashing the movies" than I will write what I don't like about it.

Sauce, I think the biggest thing is, there's so many threads on what to not like about the movies, so you do get this "repeated" looking thing, where you may here the same thing over and over. I mean I see two threads right now in the top 5 that are about what not to like about the movie. I'm sure the Gandalf/WK thread is on the front page, along with a thread on the MoS.

There is also a tendency on this forum to focus on the criticisms and gloss over the films' many good points.

I agree, but I think it's just because there's so few threads on what's good about the movies. But when they're there, I also contribute to them, on what is good about them, because there are certainly many things good about the movies. But, the reason the "bad" is overpowering the "good" is because there's probably 3 or 4 more times "bad threads."

but I do this to assist in stopping the threads becoming Bashing - Bashing to me is a thread saying how bad a particular bit of the moives (or all of them) are with no 'plus' points or arguments against this~Essex

I agree, there are many things to like about the movies. And bashers simply bash the movies to get attention and get responded to. These threads I stay away from (they're quite frequent on IMDB) because it only adds fuel to the fire.

I don't think I've ever told you, or someone that they were wrong. You like what you like and defend it, I don't like () what I don't like and defend it. That's as far as we can really expect to get.

I think being open-minded is the biggest thing that seperates a basher from a non basher. Bashers don't care about others opinions, again they just want to bash and get attention.

Where the non-bashers (hopefully myself) are always open-minded and I remember me specifically saying on occasion..."Hey, I never thought of it that way, maybe Jackson didn't do so bad here." That's the positives, and what seperates it from bashing. We discuss our opinions to broaden our minds, and possibly see things in ways we've never considered before.

[Essex]

just to add fuel to the fire: definition of bashing:

bash (CRITICIZE)

verb {T}

to criticize someone severely:

..........................

[The Only Real Estel]

Yes, that is rather an over-simplification of my view.

Sorry if it was too over-simplified, Sauce, but I had a very limited amount of time in which to create the thread so I didn't have time to look up a lot of threads on the subject. I did, however, remember you recently saying:

Essex is correct that listing things that you hate or dislike about the films is film-bashing.

in a film & so I used that to help me simplify things. Again, sorry if I over-simplified it too badly.

And even when backed up by sensible reasoning, when people make the same criticisms over and over again whenever the opportunity presents itself, I call that bashing. Or repeated knocking, if you like.

As Boromir88 mentioned, I think you have to define 'whenever the opportunity presents sitself.' If a new thread is created that I think has some value to it & it asks an opinion on a scene I've already talked about before, I'll raise the same criticisms again. Now if someone tries to hijack every thread by turning the discussion with a "that reminds me of this totally off-topic [of the thread] beef I have with PJ, let me redirect our conversation," that would certainly qualify as 'repeated knocking.'

just to add fuel to the fire: definition of bashing:
Quote:

bash (CRITICIZE)

verb {T}

to criticize someone severely:

By the way, I hope you know I wasn't trying to push my view with the subject of the thread...it was simply a lame attempt at being creative.

[The Saucepan Man]

I have to say that I am at a loss to see why everyone is getting so defensive about this.

As Essex has pointed out, to bash something, in the sense that we are discussing, means to criticise it heavily. So, if you repeatedly criticise the films, or any aspect of them, you are bashing them.

Nothing wrong in that per se. The important point is that you back up your arguments with reasoned analysis. I don't believe that I have ever bashed anyone here for not doing that.

[Boromir88]

SpM, only thing I can come up with is the connotation to the word "bashing." Definitely has a negative connotation, as in bludgering a person repeatedly over the head kind of connotation.

Where "intellegent criticism" seems to have a much more positve connotation to it.

[Elladan and Elrohir]

I criticize the movies at a lot of points (I guess that makes me a bona fide basher), but I'm also open to some changes.

The more I understand about how movies are made, the more I can come to terms with SOME of the changes PJ made. Some of them I still can't figure out. The important thing for me is that PJ has a reason for each change. I may or may not not agree with that reason, but he'd better have one.

Personally, despite the dictionary definition posted, I don't think repeated criticism of something is bashing. Like Boromir88 said, I think the word bashing has a very negative connotation: Few like to be accused of it. I know I don't.

I definitely think that we can have intelligent discussions about what we like or don't like about the movies without resorting to, quote unquote, "bashing." But, "bashing" does happen from time to time, even on this forum, and that's fine. I guess.

[Azaelia of Willowbottom]

There is definitely a difference between bashing and criticism. I have no problem with people who want to intelligently debate/criticise something, using support from various sources instead of "The movies are so bad, and I hate them" over and over without providing any legitimate reasons why.

Bashing is often personal, in my experience, such as "The movies are so bad, I hate them, and you're an idiot for liking them"...Ok, maybe not quite so in-your-face as that, but something that usually implies that people who don't agree are not worth listening to and/or are less smart. This is often coupled with a refusal to pay decent attention to anything the other person says.

What isn't bashing is using evidence from the books and explaining why you do not like something that PJ did with the movies. This goes along with an understanding that people are probably going to disagree with you, and a willingness to be open-minded when entering into debate.

Criticising the movies in general should not be called bashing. It's criticising the movies/criticising people who like the movies while using a particularly unpleasant, disrespectful attitude and, perhaps, in a more personal "I-don't-like-you" way.

I am a big fan of the movies on many accounts, and enjoy a little friendly debate...but *friendly* is the key word there. Once the discussion moves out of "friendly" territory, bashing starts to happen.

[Tigerlily Gamgee]

Oh, hey... I've been mentioned here! Haha.

In short, bashing to me is this:
Someone who spews negative comments and/or tears apart something without having the educated discussion to back it up. Meaning... if you can support your dislikes with examples, then it's more of a critical argument, but if you do it "just because" then you are bashing. Bashing, to me, is kind of like when I subbed and the little kids would randomly call each other names, just because they could. I don't think that any of the kids could actually back up that the other kid was, indeed, "stupid."

[Thinlómien]

Oh, no; this starts to sound like the Canonicity threads... ...