Who would have fallen?

[Fordim Hedgethistle]

This poll was suggested by Boromir88 so don't come blaming me.

One of the questions that comes up from time to time is a 'what-if': what if the Fellowship had not been broken? Would someone else have gone after the Ring like Boromir? And, if so, who? This poll will settle that.

A couple of notes, however, about the candidates:

1) yes, I know that Gandalf was not with the Fellowship at its breaking, but let's assume that if they had stayed together he would have a found a way to rejoin them

2) yes, I know that Frodo already succumbs to the Ring, but I left him on the list for anyone who might think that he really was the weakest link: maybe the other members of the Fellowship could have held out longer than Frodo?

At least this time I shan't be accused of not giving a fuzzy other option in the list, as the question is rather finite in nature.

(I am sure that there are lots of threads already devoted to this topic, but I was unable to unearth any....)

EDIT

Here's one thread, courtesy The Saucepan Man: Which of the Fellowship would have gone Ring mad?

[The Saucepan Man]

Aragorn.

[Bêthberry]

Since when has the existence of any discussion threads ever limited Fordim's poll threads? Isn't it de rigeuer in fact for his polls to be the necessary culmination or consequence of previous discussion threads?

[The Saucepan Man]

I linked to my post on that thread because it sets out my reasoning for my choice, which I stand by. I couldn't be bothered to type it all out again ...

[alatar]

Think that an choice was left out. How about none of the above?

We read that Boromir is set on taking and using the Ring in Rivendell. His desire for the Ring doesn't start at Parth Galen; it just comes to a head there as he ran out of maybe tomorrow's for which to wait for some chance to get it. And yet even he did not react with glee (if memory serves ) when Frodo got speared in the Chamber of Mazarbul - "haha! And now there be Eight..."

One might assume that the Ring's proximity to Mordor may also have something to do with Boromir's fall, but I would say that Boromir fell due mostly to the pen of Master Tolkien than from any influence of the Ring. His character is doomed to try, and yet even Boromir, shown to be muttering to himself during the Anduin boat ride, still does not take the Ring in the end. He was penned to be the most flawed of the Nine Walkers, and yet even he redeems himself and dies a hero's death. The Fellowship is made up of nine "best of the best." Tolkien's first string came to dance, and they weren't going to disappoint.

Gollum walks alongside Frodo and Sam around and almost into Mordor, yet his desire grows no stronger. His desire exceeds that of Boromir's, and though they are of different natures (hobbit and man), Gollum is able to abstain from taking the Ring for most of the journey. If he were able to resist even when the Ring were puportedly more powerful, than what does this say for Boromir and the other? Could they also have resisted?

Anyway, if Boromir were the best candidate for being the Ring-Taker, then who would be next to fall?

• Gandalf? - He'd already rejected a freely proffered Ring.

• Aragorn? - He's the ultimate human hero, doomed to be King or to die trying. His desire to be the Second Isuldur ("by one all were cursed, and by one all would be redeemed") coupled with his love for Arwen would shield him from the lures of the Ring. He needn't have waited so long if he did indeed want the Ring, and could have taken it in Bree, at Weathertop or in the long trip to Rivendell ("Frodo's going to die anyway, and I'm the obvious heir of this 'loom..."), but Aragorn didn't take it. His past actions can be used to predict his future behavior.

• Legolas? - As an elf, he would be wise enough to know the dangers of the Ring. He never comes off as does Galadriel, who has an agenda for Middle Earth. Legolas to me simply would not want it.

• Gimli? - I think that Gimli, like the Elf, would know the dangers of the Ring. His anti-domination dwarvish nature may also shield him somewhat from the temptation, and his sense of honor and duty (demonstrated when he proposed to take an oath as the Fellowship leaves Rivendell) would help.

• Sam? - Sam is tempted by the Ring, yet his 'Hobbit sense' and thereafter his love for Frodo lets him resist the Ring's temptation.

• Merry and Pippin? Arguing that these two would not try to take the take the Ring is more difficult. Surely like Sam they have some hobbit sense (maybe?) and they too have a love for Frodo. I would throw in that hopefully the Ring would reject these two if any other choices were available - look what happened to Saruman, the Uruks, the Witch-King and even Sauron when at least one of the two were present...My concern is that they would try to get it to use it unwittingly, not to gain power and dominion but just to try it. And Pippin fell to the palantir's call, and so he might try for the Ring. One would have to set his temptation against his love for Frodo and the betrayal of his kin - it's one thing to steal a palantir from a wizard but another thing to try for your kin's stuff.

I assume that this thread is in regards to the Fellowship, or I would nominate my choice ++Denethor.

[Glirdan]

I am sorry for all those Aragorn lovers out there, but I will have to say Aragorn. These are the reasons why:

1) Gandalf knew what kind of power he would have if he held the Ring and he didn't like that thought.

2) It took Frodo a long time to actually succumb to the power of th Ring. It happened only after he was captured at Cirith Ungol. Therfore, even if the other Hobbits are younger than he, we must assume that Hobbits (as said in the book numerous times) have more strength in them then it appears and so it would have taken a while for the other Hobbits to succumb to the power of the Ring.

3) The race of Men is weak, right? And in the movie, we see that when Frodo offered the Ring to Aragorn, the desire to take it came upon him. So, instead of letting Frodo keep the Ring, Aragorn could have taken it.

I could not find an excuse for Legolas and Gimli, but I have a feeling that if Legolas was offered it, he still would not have taken it. As for Gimli, I can not think of anything for a reason whe he would not have taken it.

[Morsul the Dark]

Legolas and here is why

Sam merry pippin all know about the ring all refuse to take but rather help frodo in his quest

Aragorn-he may be a man but a man smiled upon by Eru to fulfill a prophecy of becoming king(also avoids ring as seen in Bree)

Gandalf already refused the ringthat leaves gimli and legolas

well let's see, Gimli has no use for the ring i understand dwarves care little for such things i mean the dwarf rings were destroyed and taken and they just do not care

legolas....as gimli said in the film"No one trust an elf" hes too sketchy if you ask me Im not fond of him book or movie and think nay know that he would have succumbed to rings power for being and immortal elf he would consider himself mighty enough to wield it falling to his own pride(may add especially if he is captain obvious leggy)

[The Saucepan Man]

Er, I hesitate to speak for either Fordim or Boromir88, but I should imagine that it was their intention that this poll apply to the characters that we meet in the book, rather than those portrayed in the films. They are (in case anyone had not noticed ) different.

[Morsul the Dark]

Thats was my fault on legolas i trailed off into movie leggy. Let me rephrase what I said about him to be more book specific...

Legolas was the son of mirkwood's king so he kind of had the sam scenario as boromir going and he as was mentioned somewhere else on the site not at the battle of five armies we could consider his father upset with him so legolas would be more prone to bring him a "mighty Gift" to make peace of mind with his father

[Mithalwen]

Pippin would not have seized the ring.. but if it fell into his hands I think it is inevitable that he would have tried it out simply because "he won't be said" .... his personality is that he has to drop stone into wells and find out the hard way - Boromir is also a stone thrower - think of the watcher in the water!

[Boromir88]

This poll was suggested by Boromir88 so don't come blaming me.

Oh darn, you found my evil plan. I was hopeing to sick one of the Mod's on you so you can no longer be competition in the points standings, but as I said you found out....

Anyway, onto the thread...

Now I did vote for Legolas, but I think it would be pretty close between him, Aragorn, or Pippin. So let me explain some of my decisions.

First, people on why I don't think they would fall next...

Gimli- Maybe the strongest case can be made for him (besides Gandalf). One he doesn't see the ring as a weapon as Boromir would have. That was Boromir's biggest flaw, and how the Ring was able to take hold of him easily. To dwarves, I don't think they would see the Ring as a weapon, but as to acquire more wealth. Which, of course could be a downfall, and why Gimli would eventually fall to the Ring. But, I don't see him as being as strongly tempted by it as Boromir was, since he saw it as a weapon. Also, while dwarves may get greedy and want the ring to acquire more wealth, Gimli can be a special case as Galadriel declares

"and Gold shall never have dominion over you."~Farewell to Lorien.

Sam, Merry and Frodo- Hobbits seem to be more resistant to the Ring than the other races, again they don't desire the power. Sam was tempted, but he succeeded, and his love for Frodo drove him on. Merry, I honestly can't see much temptation in him. And Frodo was able to hold off his temptation until the decision to throw it into Mount Doom came up (and as shown by Tolkien in his letter to Milton Waldman this was deemed as impossible for anyone).

Gandalf- Obvious answer, already refused to take the Ring. Though he did show a fear in being tempted by it, so he could be a little weaker than what some think.

As for who would fall and the reasons, I must depart, but promise I shall continue. Sorry, to make you wait. (Though I'm sure you're all anxious)

[Glirdan]

Ok, if you are going by the book characters, than I honestly have no idea who I would chose. Maybe Pippin seeing as he fell to the lure of the palantir. Gandalf, for obvious reasons, would not. Frodo succumbed to it, but only when he was going to throw it into the Cracks of Doom. I do not see Merry succumbing to it. Maybe it's because of his close kinship with Frodo and out of love, he would not even dare to try it. Sam is Frodo's "servant" and Sam loves Frodo deeply, so that's why he would not. Not to mention, when he carried the Ring and gave it back to Frodo, he was somewhat reluctant to give it back. In that case, he COULD have kept it, or done what he did. So he is another one up on the chopping block. Now this is where it gets difficult. Aragorn had a lot of chances to take the Ring and he never did so, if I could, I would change my vote and make it some one else. Gimli and Legolas both knew the power that the Ring contained and they both have strong will power. So if I had to change my vote to anybody it would be ++Pippin.

[Fordim Hedgethistle]

Originally Posted by alatar

Think that an choice was left out. How about none of the above?

Ermmm...as one of the above includes Frodo I'm not sure that such a choice makes much sense....

And to add my clarification to Saucy's I would just point out that this poll is in fact in the Books forum and not Movies.

[The Saucepan Man]

Originally Posted by Glirdan

Maybe Pippin seeing as he fell to the lure of the palantir... I do not see Merry succumbing to it. Maybe it's because of his close kinship with Frodo and out of love, he would not even dare to try it. Sam is Frodo's "servant" and Sam loves Frodo deeply, so that's why he would not.

How come Pippin always seems to be regarded as having less love for Frodo than Merry? Is it his "lighter" nature?

Originally Posted by Glirdan

Aragorn had a lot of chances to take the Ring and he never did so

Boromir had a lot of chances to do so too, but never did until he did, if you take my meaning. We have to assume that the next person to "succumb" does so after Boromir's attempt. For the reasons stated in the link I provided above, I believe that it would have been Aragorn. At the outset, the distance from Mordor and his strength of character mean that he is in no danger. But had they all stayed with Frodo on the journey to Mordor, I believe that, of them all, he would have been in the most danger.

Then again, I believe that given sufficent time and exposure, they would all have succumbed to the lure of the Ring - with the exception, perhaps, of Gandalf.

[Glirdan]

Originally Posted by The Saucepan Man

How come Pippin always seems to be regarded as having less love for Frodo than Merry? Is it his "lighter" nature?

I never said he had less love for Frodo. He does have lots of love for him seeing as they are also closely related. I said that because Pippin was the one who touched the palantir is the one who is most curious and if the Ring just magicly appeared in his hand, he would probably try it out to see what it does.

Originally Posted by The Saucepan Man

Then again, I believe that given sufficent time and exposure, they would all have succumbed to the lure of the Ring - with the exception, perhaps, of Gandalf

I would have to agree with you on this one. The lure would have been to strong for them to resist for long, with the exception of Gandalf of course.

[alatar]

Originally Posted by Fordim Hedgethistle

Ermmm...as one of the above includes Frodo I'm not sure that such a choice makes much sense....

Oh, so now there is the requirement to make sense?!? Hmmm..I may have a little trouble with that, but then again I guess that there's a first time for everything.

Originally Posted by The Saucepan Man

Boromir had a lot of chances to do so too, but never did until he did, if you take my meaning.

But not as many as did Aragorn. Strider was alone in the woods with fours hobbits unchaperoned. When Boromir enters the story, the Ring Bearer is surrounded by some pretty big body guards, and so he might have been put off by them. And what is hinted at by the temptations of Galadriel? Did she see Ring lust in Aragorn's eyes? My point is that Boromir and Aragorn are different.

But had they all stayed with Frodo on the journey to Mordor, I believe that, of them all, he would have been in the most danger...Then again, I believe that given sufficent time and exposure, they would all have succumbed to the lure of the Ring - with the exception, perhaps, of Gandalf.

It's possible that Aragorn would have succumbed, yet I see that happening with no more or less probability than any of the others (with the exception of the witless Pippin thing). I know that the Ring tempts and tempted, yet when I read the text I never got the sense that any of the others felt as Boromir did, meaning that I was told of the Ring's irresistable siren song, but never heard it in any of the characters' ears.

And, to quote Sauron, Aragorn's fall may have happened when the world were in dire straights (that text about a time of strife when a new Ring Lord would appear and put down all of the others or something), yet when would this strife have occurred? If Aragorn accompanied Frodo, when would possessing the Ring appear to be the better deal? Would Aragorn need it to get through the Black Gate? Or if they followed Gollum's path to Cirith Ungol, would Aragorn need to take the Ring to put down the Witch-King? If he were in Minas Tirith when the siege started, then maybe he would have felt more like Denethor, but again I just don't see it.

Boromir was Tolkien's fall guy.

[Glirdan]

Originally Posted by alatar

Oh, so now there is the requirement to make sense?!? Hmmm..I may have a little trouble with that, but then again I guess that there's a first time for everything.

I know, why do things have to make sense?? Oh well. Guess I will just have to restrain myself then.

Originally Posted by alatar

But not as many as did Aragorn. Strider was alone in the woods with fours hobbits unchaperoned. When Boromir enters the story, the Ring Bearer is surrounded by some pretty big body guards, and so he might have been put off by them. And what is hinted at by the temptations of Galadriel? Did she see Ring lust in Aragorn's eyes? My point is that Boromir and Aragorn are different.

I agree with you on this alatar. Aragorn was with the four alone a lot after they left Bree. When Boromir comes, he would have to face a man who claims to be king of Gondor, a Dwarf with a bad temper, an elf with a good shot on a bow, and a very powerful wizard. Not to mention Frodo's kin and "servant". He would have had a really hard time getting it from him. Aragorn and Boromir are VERY different from each other.

[Folwren]

I haven't voted yet, but I have to say that I doubt it is Peregrin. I take the question to mean that if the Fellowship never broke and Frodo still carried the Ring, who would fall next, not 'if it fell into someone's hands, who would succumb to it?' If that were the case, well...I think if anyone had it long enough they would succumb.

Anyhow, taking the question as I percieve it (i.e. Frodo carries it, the others see it now and again and it's always near them, who falls next?), I don't think Pippin would even care. Several here have said that because of his witlessness and his proneness to curiosity he would have fallen, but I say because of his lack of knowledge and lack of contact with the thing, he would hardly be aware of its presence. He sees no application for it (like Boromir saw it as a weapon, or other people might see it as power) and he can only see the misery it brings. Like a child, he'll do his utmost to avoid that.

Until later, then, when I figure out who I think WOULD be next...

[alatar]

Originally Posted by Folwren

Several here have said that because of his witlessness and his proneness to curiosity he would have fallen, but I say because of his lack of knowledge and lack of contact with the thing, he would hardly be aware of its presence. He sees no application for it (like Boromir saw it as a weapon, or other people might see it as power) and he can only see the misery it brings. Like a child, he'll do his utmost to avoid that.

Not to be impolite, but do you have children? I have one such child that repeatedly tries to harm herself - not that she's stupid or not abled and as normal as one of my children can be - it's just that she continually attempts things that are outside of her abilities. We are on constant 'suicide watch.' Finding a screwdriver, she would immediately go to the nearest electrical outlet...

My other two somehow have more sense.

That and that she is overly curious. How many coins do you think one can fit inside the box of a computer (when it's turned on)? She means no harm, it's just that she found the coins near the computer, saw the slots, and must have figured that one belonged inside the other. I am continually amazed by (and tired from) her actions.

I see Pippin in the same light. He would not mean harm, nor would he seek power. I would agree that he might even be deaf to the call. My assertion has been that if the Ring were in reach, Pippin would try it on just to see what would happen/what it would do. I would posit the same would happen if he saw Frodo's star glass, Gandalf's staff, Boromir's horn, etc.

He just can't his hands in his pocketses.

[Boromir88]

Well to finish what I intended...

I thought about Pippin, but seeing as he was a Hobbit, I don't see him as being the next one to fall to the Ring. I think his curiosity is what would get him eventually.

Saucepan brings up good points about Aragorn, and these are similar reasons to why I considered him to falling after Boromir. Yes, Aragorn did have chances to take it already, alone with the four hobbits, but Aragorn at the end of FOTR (well beginning of TTT) is in total shambles. He questions his own leadership, he wishes Gandalf didn't die, he wishes he wasn't the leader because anything he's decided has gone wrong. Right now at the beginning of TTT he begins questioning himself, and goes through a hard time...perhaps some fuel for the Ring to work with?

Anyway, onto who I voted for and why. Aye, it was Legolas. Simply for the reasons that he could be in the same boat with Boromir. Mirkwood is a piece of junk at this time, it's dark, crappy, and infested with spiders, could the Ring use this to work on Legolas? Maybe, maybe not. But it seems like Legolas and Boromir are sort of on the same road here. Boromir wants to save Gondor, though he wants to do it himself. Legolas perhaps wants to make Mirkwood beautiful again, and clear of spiders, but Boromir was just an easier target.

Now, we don't get too many characters thoughts on the Ring. We get some on Aragorn, a bit on Gandalf, Sam much later on, and Frodo. Other than that how the others are effected by it isn't said.

We must remember, that just because some people don't show an effect of the Ring, doesn't mean they COULDN'T become corrupted. Through the journey of the Fellowship, the Ring had no need to work on anyone else besides Boromir. Boromir was easy prey for the Ring, and the Ring had no need to try to go after anyone else at this time. Once Boromir is out of the picture, Gollum comes in, more easy prey for the Ring. So, the Ring I don't think is something all powerful that effects anyone that comes near it. It tends to focus on one person, and when that person is alone.

Examples:

Smeagol killing Deagol for the Ring.
Frodo offering it to Gandalf in Bag End.
Frodo offering it to Galadriel.
Boromir and Frodo alone at Amon Hen.
Sam's temptation in Cirith Ungol, alone with Frodo.

[Bêthberry]

Originally Posted by Boromir88

We must remember, that just because some people don't show an effect of the Ring, doesn't mean they COULDN'T become corrupted. Through the journey of the Fellowship, the Ring had no need to work on anyone else besides Boromir. Boromir was easy prey for the Ring, and the Ring had no need to try to go after anyone else at this time. Once Boromir is out of the picture, Gollum comes in, more easy prey for the Ring. So, the Ring I don't think is something all powerful that effects anyone that comes near it. It tends to focus on one person, and when that person is alone.

That could be true, but I have to wonder about Bilbo's reputation for eccentricity in The Shire--or perhaps it is Bag End's reputation as a slightly questionable place. Maybe the Ring, while lying in wait all those years, was secretly reaching out to the various visitors, whose behaviours might be skewed by its efforts. So poor Bilbo gets the reputation as somewhat or highly irregular and Bag End as a place best to avoid.

So perhaps it wasn't that the hobbits were so parochial or small minded, but that in fact there was sufficient cause for strange things overcoming hobbits in Bag End. And because no one knew the real source for the troubling influence, Bilbo got tagged with a bad rep.

Just a thought.

[Lyta_Underhill]

How come Pippin always seems to be regarded as having less love for Frodo than Merry? Is it his "lighter" nature?

I think this impression might come from the fact that Pippin CAN throw away a treasure at need, and he seems less attached to the things of the world, more Gandalf-like in that respect. Merry is constantly pulled back to Earth and admonishes himself ("Frodo and Sam! I am forgetting them!) and it pulls him back to his cares and his worry. He is depressed when Pippin is not there, and seems to need others around him, whereas Pippin treads lightly upon Middle Earth, one of the aspects of his personality I've tried to emulate, except where it creates conflicts with the more sensitive members of the world. It is a skill that works only when it is finely honed, and without this honing, it comes off as foolishness and mindlessness, perhaps childishness even! It is another question whether the Ring would have gotten Pippin before he could "grow up," but he does seem vulnerable to the unexplained drawing power of unseen forces, viz. the Palantir incident. So he probably would have tried it, but only if it had been in proximity to him.

I see Pippin in the same light. He would not mean harm, nor would he seek power. I would agree that he might even be deaf to the call. My assertion has been that if the Ring were in reach, Pippin would try it on just to see what would happen/what it would do. I would posit the same would happen if he saw Frodo's star glass, Gandalf's staff, Boromir's horn, etc.

Too true, except I don't think the 'call' would take an earthly form, as it did for Boromir, as it might for Aragorn, or even as it did in the end for Frodo. Pippin wishes to know the otherworldly, the names of things, all the stars in the sky, the lands of the world, etc. etc.,. I think his desire is much like Gandalf's desire to have looked into the Palantir and seen the hands of Fëanor at work long ago, a desire for knowledge. But the Ring would have merely given him grandiose notions. And then, like Sam, he would have realized he isn't big enough for grandiose notions and taken it off like a good Hobbit!

On a last note, I think I would have thrown the book against the wall and stomped on it if Pippin fell to the Ring. I'm glad this is only hypothetical!

Cheers!
Lyta

[Fordim Hedgethistle]

Stunned, yes, I am stunned that Aragorn and Pippin are garnering so many votes, when the most likely to have succumbed is clearly ++GANDALF.

My reasoning? Each and every time someone is tempted to seize the Ring it is with the express purpose of using it to confront Sauron and to raise him or herself above the Enemy: Boromir wishes to become a great captain and lead an army against Mordor; Galadriel will become the Dark Queen; Sam dreams of throwing down the Dark Tower; even Gollum dreams of being Gollum the Great and eating fish every day.

What prevents Frodo from succumbing for so long is his ability to set aside that desire to confront evil in this mano y mano model of combative, militaristic heroism (that Boromir personifies). Instead, he clings to his love of and for other people: his duty, as he understands it, is to protect the Shire. Sam, Merry and Pippin see their duty as being to protect Frodo; Aragorn’s duty is to return to Gondor and save it; and Legolas and Gimli share the duty of the Halflings (to aid Frodo) but increasingly to each other in their remarkable friendship. The point of the Quest is to destroy the Ring and to this they are all dedicated – it’s only when people move away from this goal and embrace a more combative one (attack Sauron directly) that they run into trouble.

And this is where I come to Gandalf. His sole and only purpose in being sent to M-E is to combat Sauron: not directly, to be sure, but he has been placed there as the opponent to the Enemy. Unlike the hobbits – who are there to save the Shire – or Aragorn – who is there to win Arwen (by saving Gondor) – or Legolas and Gimli – who are there to save the Greenwood and the Mountain, and to forge a new bond between both – Gandalf is in M-E to defeat Sauron.

The lure of the Ring (“Take me, and you can destroy Sauron”) would find its readiest ear in the Wizard…don’t forget, it’s already corrupted one White Wizard…

(Why do you think that when Gandalf returned he made sure that he went west toward Aragorn, or -- more precisely -- away from Frodo, when he could have just as easily gone into Mordor to help the Ringbearer? I suspect that deep down, or even not so deep down, he knew that he was the greatest threat to Frodo.)

[Glirdan]

Originally Posted by alatar

I see Pippin in the same light. He would not mean harm, nor would he seek power. I would agree that he might even be deaf to the call. My assertion has been that if the Ring were in reach, Pippin would try it on just to see what would happen/what it would do. I would posit the same would happen if he saw Frodo's star glass, Gandalf's staff, Boromir's horn, etc.

I agree with you alatar, he can't seem to keep his hands off of everything. For that reason, I believe he would be the first to succumb to the power of the Ring.

Originally Posted by Lyta_Underhill

On a last note, I think I would have thrown the book against the wall and stomped on it if Pippin fell to the Ring. I'm glad this is only hypothetical!

You're not the only one Lyta. If ANY of the others succumbed to the power of the Ring, I would have flipped because I liked them all.

[Son of Númenor]

Most of your argument for Gandalf being the first to crack could be used, with minor tweaking, for Aragorn.

Each and every time someone is tempted to seize the Ring it is with the express purpose of using it to confront Sauron and to raise him or herself above the Enemy: Boromir wishes to become a great captain and lead an army against Mordor; Galadriel will become the Dark Queen; Sam dreams of throwing down the Dark Tower; even Gollum dreams of being Gollum the Great and eating fish every day.

Why would Aragorn be less likely than Gandalf to be tempted to seize it for the purpose of defeating Sauron? If anything he probably felt a greater pressure than Gandalf to save Gondor and the people of Middle-earth, given his bloodline.

The lure of the Ring (“Take me, and you can destroy Sauron”) would find its readiest ear in the Wizard…don’t forget, it’s already corrupted one White Wizard…

It also caused Boromir to assail Frodo, and Isildur was unable to give it up of his own accord.

Gandalf would succumb to the Ring eventually, perhaps before most other members of the Fellowship - but not before Aragorn. The two have similar objectives, but there are major differences. Aragorn is a Man, a Man of noble breeding but of a fallen race all the same. His desire to reclaim the throne of Gondor and usher in an era of peace would magnify the Ring's effect on him. While Gandalf's mission - and great desire - is likewise to defeat Sauron and make way for a peaceful Fourth Age, he is not bound to this quest in the same way as Aragorn is. He can return to immortal lands if Middle-earth falls to Sauron.

Edit: Cross-posted with Glirdan

[HerenIstarion]

I wish there were an entry for 'no one'

[Fordim Hedgethistle]

Originally Posted by HerenIstarion

I wish there were an entry for 'no one'

Again, I will point out that one of the choices is Frodo who, as I recall, did finally succumb to the Ring...

[Fordim Hedgethistle]

Sorry Sono, but I don’t buy your rebuttal. Aragorn’s primary goal was not to defeat Sauron but to become worthy of Arwen by saving Gondor, and to thus reunite the bloodlines of the Half-Elven. His historical/mythic purpose – his Duty – is to procreate, not to destroy.

Not so Gandalf: he is entirely sexless and wholly devoted to the combative overthrow of Sauron. In this regard he is like Boromir – can you imagine Boro ever settling down with a nice girl from Rohan in the greenwoods of Ithilien? Nuh-uh. The same is true for Gandalf – he’s not going to be doing anything after the War. One way or another, his purpose is fulfilled; his job is finished with its conclusion.

So while I agree that the Ring would have corrupted Aragorn in time (terrible thought) I still don’t think he would have succumbed before Gandalf. The Wizard was thinking at every point, “How can I defeat Sauron?” and to that the Ring gives a ready answer; Aragorn was thinking at every point, “How can I save Gondor and thus marry Arwen?” – the Ring would have found a way to deceive him into thinking he could have that, but it would take much longer insofar as it’s hard to see how Aragorn could be fooled into thinking that seizing the Ring would give him Arwen until he was completely corrupted. Gandalf, on the other hand, was already pretty desperate to defeat Sauron: so desperate that he conceived of the hare-brained idea of sending the Ring into Mordor in the care of a Halfing!

[alatar]

I cannot stand by and watch the good name of Gandalf besmirched. With all of the talk about Gandalf taking or succumbing to the Ring, you are dragging this character through the mud. I just can't believe what I'm reading...why don't you just break his staff and lay him prone before some lesser being...like the Witch-King or something...wait...didn't someone already do that?!?

Anyway, I would argue that Gandalf would have resisted the Ring longer than any. This noble soul was offered this very Ring, yet turned it down freely - he passed the test. So why would he stretch out his hand to take something that he'd already once refused?

I would assume that you might say that if it came down to either he or Sauron getting the Ring, that Gandalf would take it. Okay, maybe in this extreme case; maybe not. I think that he wouldn't. Gandalf believed that it would all work out, and surely his ring encouraged him in this feeling. He believed that something guided him into meeting with Thorin, and something helped Bilbo take possession of the Ring. Gandalf knew that he was not alone in his fight. His other self, the White part, saw things that were previously unknown to him, and I think that he foresaw that his plan had a good chance of working.

If he thought that the Ring would allow him to succeed in his task, then even though he didn't have it, then why not ally with Saruman? This was the next best thing to having the Ring. Maybe he and Saruman could put their heads together and counter Sauron, recover the Ring or even make a new ring that would help.

So why take the Ring? Surely not to help in the Siege of Gondor or to fight the armies of the Dark Lord - these were defeated without the Ring. I might be a bit confused but didn't he believe that even if Gondor were overrun that there were other places from which to fight? What other event would make him so desperate to reject all of his own wisdom, the wisdom of others, honor, duty, love, etc? The other four Istari fell, yet not Gandalf. He had many many year when he could have made other choices - set himself up as a 'Power,' quit the fight, travel out East, die - but this Steward was faithful and resolute to the end. In desperation and despair one might do many of stupid and foolish things.

But Gandalf wasn't desperate. Nor did he despair.

So go ahead, ruminate on Aragorn, vote for Legolas or Gimli or even consider the hobbits, but leave the Wizard off of the list. Gandalf would never take the Ring.

[Glirdan]

Originally Posted by altar

So go ahead, ruminate on Aragorn, vote for Legolas or Gimli or even consider the hobbits, but leave the Wizard off of the list. Gandalf would never take the Ring.

I agree completly. He, out of the rest of the company, also had MANY (to many to count) chances to take the Ring from Frodo AND Bilbo. But did he? No! So I say leave Gandalf out of the equation completly. Yes he has a greater cause and reasons for taking the Ring, but he didn't. I still say that Aragorn or Pippin (and I say now if they would have, I would have flipped) would probably become succumbed before any of the others. Pippin because of his curiosity and Aragorn simply because of the weakness in men. Boromir fell and if the Ring were brought before Denethor, Théoden or Eomer, they probably would have done the same as Boromir, Denethor more than the others.

[CaptainofDespair]

Originally Posted by alatar

So go ahead, ruminate on Aragorn, vote for Legolas or Gimli or even consider the hobbits, but leave the Wizard off of the list. Gandalf would never take the Ring.

I think he would. It's like the cookie jar, that Ring is. Gandalf openly refused The One Cookie, but the temptation to eat that cookie grows, as he wonders at the possibilities. Gandalf wanted to defeat Sauron, and he wanted to help Frodo. So, why not do both (at least the Cookie would tell him that )?

He could take the Ring, and destroy Sauron with it, and maybe find enough strength in his friends to cast the Ring into the Fire. He would then have saved Frodo from that horrible experience, and not have risked his life any further. These thoughts would be in the back of his mind, and he might act on them.

Besides, the One Cookie is tasty.

[alatar]

Originally Posted by CaptainofDespair

I think he would. It's like the cookie jar, that Ring is. Gandalf openly refused The One Cookie, but the temptation to eat that cookie grows, as he wonders at the possibilities. Gandalf wanted to defeat Sauron, and he wanted to help Frodo. So, why not do both (at least the Cookie would tell him that )?

How would taking the Ring accomplish either? Gandalf might think that with the Ring he could throw down Sauron, but he also knew that he would be taking the Dark Lord's place...I guess he would be the 'Grey Lord?' Frodo would suffer under this dominion, as would many others. Gandalf, a loremaster, knew the price of the stupid/wrong/easy path. I think that he even alludes to past failures...but I can't remember the quote (got to get my brain defragged) and later sees the folly of choosing the wrong path in Saruman. Also, Gandalf is the Prime Motivator. It's not for him to uproot Sauron but to aid others in the task. Think about the Siege of Gondor (the Book version). Just how many times does Gandalf's sword come out of its sheath?

He didn't need the Ring to show people the right path. Theoden was under the spell of a Maia, and Gandalf was still able to set him on the right road. Treebeard acted on his own, not because he was controlled by Gandalf. Aragorn took the Paths as a free man, not as a Ring-controlled robot.

He could take the Ring, and destroy Sauron with it, and maybe find enough strength in his friends to cast the Ring into the Fire. He would then have saved Frodo from that horrible experience, and not have risked his life any further. These thoughts would be in the back of his mind, and he might act on them.

Mayhap, yet I think that the evidence points elsewhere. Aragorn and Gandalf were ready to sacrifice all for the goal, and Frodo was of the same caliber. Surely Gandalf wanted to spare Frodo any pain, yet knew that as Frodo accepted the task freely that he was solely responsible for his own destiny.

[Glirdan]

Originally Posted by alatar

He didn't need the Ring to show people the right path. Theoden was under the spell of a Maia, and Gandalf was still able to set him on the right road. Treebeard acted on his own, not because he was controlled by Gandalf. Aragorn took the Paths as a free man, not as a Ring-controlled robot

Everything the others did was led by fate, if that's what you want to call it, destiny if that makes you happier. Merry and Pippin getting captured by the orcs for instance. And they were the ones who set in motion the acts of the Ents, not Gandalf. Aragorn chose to follow the orcs to rescue the Hobbits, Gandalf didn't force him. They're are a list of things that you could go on about that is all fate (i.e. Bilbo finding the Ring, Frodo receiving the Ring).

I'm sorry to say, even though I have long fought against it, that yes, Gandalf COULD have succumbed to the power of the Ring. But let me make it clear, not for a long, LONG time.

Originally Posted by Fordim Hedgethistle

The lure of the Ring (“Take me, and you can destroy Sauron”) would find its readiest ear in the Wizard…don’t forget, it’s already corrupted one White Wizard…(Why do you think that when Gandalf returned he made sure that he went west toward Aragorn, or -- more precisely -- away from Frodo, when he could have just as easily gone into Mordor to help the Ringbearer? I suspect that deep down, or even not so deep down, he knew that he was the greatest threat to Frodo.)

He turned West because he probably thought that the people in the West would need his help more than Frodo and Sam. I mean, what if he did turn East and go with Frodo and Sam. Théoden would not have recovered and Rohan would utterly be destroyed. Then Gondor would have been enclosed from East, West and South because they wouldn't have one the battle at Helm's Deep and Aragorn, Legolas and Gimli would persih and the corsairs would not have been stopped. Yes, Saruman would be stopped, but as Treebeard stated before, Ents don't bother with the wars of Men, so they wouldn't have come to the help of Gondor or Rohan. So many things would have happened if Gandalf had turned East. In my belief, I believe he had foresight on what would have happened if he turned East and decided to turn West instead.

[Bêthberry]

Perhaps one way to answer this or resolve the various choices is to ask one question. Yes, the one question!

Which character knows himself best? Who has the greatest self-knowledge? I think that someone who is aware of his own weaknesses, desires, failings, strengths, and needs is likely someone who would be more aware of his own actions and temptations, and who would be more master of himself and less liable to the siren call of the Ring.

And then, who has the next strongest sense of self-awareness? And so on .... until we find the character who has the least or most undeveloped self-knowledge.

One reason why Boromir falls is that, while his heart is noble, he is so self-assured, has questioned himself and his actions so little, that he is unable to see what the Ring is doing to him. In contrast is Frodo, who constantly questions himself. (He thus is not "the weakest link" Frodim (sic).

The problem with this idea, of course, is that it assumes every character is as well developed as any other in the Fellowship. Yet a stab can be made, no?

So, instead of a one anwer poll, we should be filling out a hierarchy. Sort of a Middle earth Maslow's hierarchy of needs, for those of you who know 7th Age psychology.

[Fordim Hedgethistle]

Oh great, now I'm being taken to task for not writing a computer code which would allow for a poll which would allow a hierarchical ranking... sheesh!

But back to matters at hand...

I still think that in all of Tolkien's stories, the one thing that comes through is that the more powerful a being is, the more dangerous he/she/it will be. Sauron is the mightiest being in M-E by the time of the War, and the most perilous person the Fellowship meets is Galadriel. Saruman becomes a terrible threat to the free peoples, and Aragorn -- we are told at one point -- is a dangerous person as well.

After Gandalf becomes the White Wizard, he is the second most powerful being in the West (perhaps third, behind Shelob); as such, he is all the more dangerous. In light of Bb's comments I could easily argue that he has the least self-knowlege insofar as he is not 'really' a self but an embodied being in a physical form. Unlike the others of the Fellowship who have a place in this world -- a society, family, history, body, life -- he is a maiar who does not change, is exempt for the natural processes of living, and who is only visiting Middle-Earth as a messenger from without.

But I think I have flogged this dead wizard long enough...it just really boils my tea to see people who think that Aragorn could have taken the Ring. I mean, how can you think that after Faramir gave it up? Faramir! The ultimate pallid Aragorn-wannabe! If he can resist the Ring, Aragorn certainly can.

(Hmmmmm....I'm dissing Faramir again.....best watch for flying gauntlets....)

[alatar]

Originally Posted by Glirdan

I'm sorry to say, even though I have long fought against it, that yes, Gandalf COULD have succumbed to the power of the Ring. But let me make it clear, not for a long, LONG time.

I would agree that it would happen sometime after the sun became a charcoal briquette...

Originally Posted by Fordim Hedgethistle

I still think that in all of Tolkien's stories, the one thing that comes through is that the more powerful a being is, the more dangerous he/she/it will be.

Well, that at least explains the presence of the Eagles at the opening of the Black gate - Eru was trying to get the Ring!

It's little known but there are whispers that Eru was paying more attention to making a good cup of tea than to what was going on in ME. When he looked down, he saw the Frodo, Sam and Gollum at Sammath Naur and all that he could think to do was to send the Eagles (it's his default action). But even he was thwarted by the act of Gollum, who seems to be some type of rogue entity unbeholden to anyone or anything except himself and his Ring-lust.

But I think I have flogged this dead wizard long enough...it just really boils my tea to see people who think that Aragorn could have taken the Ring. I mean, how can you think that after Faramir gave it up? Faramir! The ultimate pallid Aragorn-wannabe! If he can resist the Ring, Aragorn certainly can.

If the Wizard is off of the list, as is Aragorn, then we're down to the Hobbits (probably not Sam) and the Odd Couple. Flogging yet another dead horse, I still believe that none but Boromir was penned to be a Ring-Taker.

[Mister Underhill]

You've made a powerful case for Gandalf, Fordie, though balanced against your analysis is very strong evidence of Gandalf's self-knowledge/self-control in this matter: his knowledge of the Ring's whereabouts -- easily within his reach -- for decades; his chance to claim it not once but twice -- first when it is left more or less in his stewardship, albeit briefly, when Bilbo departs, and second when Frodo openly offers it to him.

Of course we are to imagine some desperate extremity in Mordor, no doubt -- Nazgûl on the hunt, the Ring's power waxing, etc. In fact, probably the most dangerous moment of all is Shelob's lair, when Frodo appears dead. Now there's a breaking point if ever there was one. Suppose the Fellowship were still intact then, with the Bearer down. Who takes the Ring?

I agree with your point that the more powerful and ambitious are more easily tempted, but I think you're underestimating a few factors that still weigh in Gandalf's favor. His knowledge, having passed through sacrifice, death, and regeneration, that selfish will to power is the antithesis of victory in Middle-earth. His long experience with resisting the Ring's lure. His knowledge, both as a Ring-bearer and a Maia, of the consequences of claiming the Ring. And -- and I think this is perhaps most important of all -- his resources of power, via both his native power as a "wizard" and his possession of a Ring of his own, which give him hope of successfully contending with the Enemy and/or his agents without the extra power of the One Ring.

On the other hand, I'm not sure I buy your thesis re: Aragorn. Who was it who actually sought a direct confrontation with Sauron? Why, Aragorn, of course. And was this a hasty or improvised course of action? Nay:

'Dangerous indeed, but not to all,' said Aragorn. 'There is one who may claim it by right. For this assuredly is the palantír of Orthanc from the treasury of Elendil, set here by the Kings of Gondor. Now my hour draws near. I will take it.'

Gandalf looked at Aragorn, and then, to the surprise of the others, he lifted the covered Stone, and bowed as he presented it.

'Receive it, lord!' he said: 'in earnest of other things that shall be given back. But if I may counsel you in the use of your own, do not use it – yet! Be wary!'

'When have I been hasty or unwary, who have waited and prepared for so many long years?' said Aragorn.

'Never yet. Do not then stumble at the end of the road,' answered Gandalf.

Is it possible that Aragorn's sense of entitlement, of mission to oppose Sauron mano y mano, would be his undoing in the end, at the last extremity?

Maybe. Maybe.

I'm not voting yet because the jury's still out as far as I'm concerned. But I'm leaning away from Gandalf...

[Glirdan]

Originally Posted by alatar

Well, that at least explains the presence of the Eagles at the opening of the Black gate - Eru was trying to get the Ring!

OH MY GOD!! IT EXPLAINS EVERYTHING!!!! Oh my, what if he's controlling eveything we say!?!? Oops, there goes my insanity again.

Originally Posted by alatar

If the Wizard is off of the list, as is Aragorn, then we're down to the Hobbits (probably not Sam) and the Odd Couple. Flogging yet another dead horse, I still believe that none but Boromir was penned to be a Ring-Taker.

We've made up a defence for Gandalf and Aragorn, so who's next? Because I complely agree with you that Boromir was doomed from the start, and no one else. I really wish there was a "no one" option, even if Frodo did eventually succumb to the power of the Ring.

[Elladan and Elrohir]

I think one key component that some if not all of you are leaving out is the power of the Ring. Let us be clear. In the end, at the Crack of Doom, NO ONE could resist it. No one. Not Gandalf, not Aragorn, and as we see in the book, not Frodo. The will of the Ring rules supreme. Indeed, though Tolkien may think differently (and he has every right to be wrong if he wants to, ), I think that the way everything happened in the book was the ONLY WAY it could have happened, for the Ring to be destroyed.

Things could not have happened differently than they did in the books. Yes, I suppose you can still ask "what if" but in reality there is no "if." IF the Fellowship does not break, then Merry and Pippin will not spark the wrath of the Ents on Isengard, and Aragorn, Legolas, Gimli, and Gandalf will not heal King Theoden and win the Battle of the Hornburg. In which case Isengard will conquer Rohan and attack Gondor. Since Gondor does not have the aid of Gandalf and Aragorn, or of Rohan for that matter, it will fall quickly. And when that time comes, there is no longer any hope.

The Fellowship HAD to break. If it did not, Middle-earth was doomed. Boromir, in trying to take the Ring from Frodo, was saving Middle-earth, though unknowingly. The will of Eru prevails.

OK, I've given the lecture, you all have sat back and listened patiently, now continue with the discussion. It's still fun to ponder "what ifs" like this one. I have not made up my mind, but Fordim's argument for Gandalf currently seems very strong. Pray continue!

[the phantom]

Fordim has made a good case for Gandalf, and I'd like to try and add to it a bit.

In TTT, The White Rider, Gandalf says-

"War is upon us and all our friends, a war in which only the use of the Ring could give us surety of victory....'
He rose and gazed out eastward, shading his eyes, as if he saw things far away that none of them could see. Then he shook his head. 'No', he said in a soft voice, 'it has gone beyond our reach. Of that at least let us be glad. We can no longer be tempted to use the Ring.

It seems to me that a part of him wishes the Ring was still around, just in case. That's how Gandalf's temptation would begin, correct? It would start as better not let the Ring get too far away- just in case, and then when crossing into Mordor in would move to don't take the Ring, but be ready to grab it- just in case, and by the time Gandalf got to Mount Doom the voice might be saying you know Frodo won't be able to destroy it when he gets there- he couldn't even throw it into his fireplace in the Shire. You had better take it now.

And since, as Fordim said, Gandalf's purpose is to counter Sauron, I imagine that being in the heart of Mordor and feeling the massive weight of Sauron's power, Gandalf would be extremely tempted to do something to boost his own power in an attempt to match his opponent.

And when Gandalf says "only the use of the Ring could give us surety of victory", isn't he showing the influence the Ring has on him? I will explain.

In Tolkien's letter 246 where he talks about good guys using the Ring to beat Sauron, he states that the Ring purposefully made people think they could be more powerful than truly possible (think of Gollum, Galadriel, and Sam's temptation). Tolkien does not give Galadriel much of a chance of winning force versus force and no chance whatsoever of winning one on one and actually destroying Sauron (JRRT said one-on-one was not even contemplated). The only person he mentioned that might win was Gandalf, and it was far from being a guarantee, which clearly means that the Ring would not give "surety of victory".

And so, when Gandalf makes his "surety" statement he is showing his temptation to use the Ring, because he is placing more faith in it than he should. It has become overly valuable to him.