By george dwarves are british, i think - The Barrow-Downs Discussion Forum

Morsul the Dark · 08-20-2005, 10:47 AM

Dwarven language very little is known about it for it is only used amongst theemselves dwarves don't even let out their right names.

but we have one clue moon letters, which if im not mistaken follow fashion of anglo-saxon runes in fact they are anglo-saxon rune so one could argue that dwarves speak anglo-saxon as ther secret language...right?

the guy who be short · 08-20-2005, 11:20 AM

Nope.

LotR = 3rd Age = Several thousand years ago.
Anglo-Saxon = 7th Age = Several centuries ago.

Plus all the other stuff I don't have time to type right at the moment.

Alcarillo · 08-20-2005, 02:10 PM

If any race was more Anglo-Saxon than any others it must be the Rohirrim. Tolkien showed Rohirric as Old-English, after all. An assumption based merely on runes seems to me like jumping to conclusions. We in fact do have a few words that come from Khuzdul, and they look rather alien to Old English. There's Barazinbar, Zirakzigil, Bundushathur, Buzundush, Azaghal, Azanulbizar, Mazarbul, Kibil-Nala, Sharbhund, and many other examples. We have examples of "secret" names for the petty-dwarves: Mim, Ibal.

Note: I have left out diacritic marks for the sake of convenience.

Guinevere · 08-20-2005, 02:19 PM

Quote:

so one could argue that dwarves speak anglo-saxon as ther secret language...right?

No, Anglo-Saxon is the language spoken by the Rohirrim! Or rather, just as Tolkien used modern English to "translate" Westron , he used Old English to "translate" the language of the Rohirrim. ("Westu Théoden hal!" etc)

The "outward" names of the Dwarves are of old Norse origin. I don't think their "secret language" is like any real language. It is invented by Tolkien, as are the Elven languages, but there are only a few words like "Baruk Khazad! Khazad ai menû!" What does that sound like ?

Gil-Galad · 08-20-2005, 02:31 PM

Dwarves have been in Norse Mythology, so Tolkien might have just used the Norse Dwarves as an example for his book

Mithalwen · 08-21-2005, 12:38 PM

Risking condemning this thread to a rapid transfer to mirth you might make a case for identifying dwarves as Oxford dons of a certain era.... grumpy, insular, proud, clannish, obsessed by their work above all things, prefering to keep their womenfolk tucked away and a distressing tendancy towards facial hair in the female of the species.....

Guinevere · 08-21-2005, 02:15 PM

I just found an interesting thread on this topic:

Ancient British cultures reflected in Middle-earth

especially posts # 25 (by Rumil), #26 (by the Squatter of Amon Rûdh) and #35 (by Man of the Old Hope) are very enlightening.

piosenniel · 08-21-2005, 05:06 PM

Here is a short discussion of Khuzdul, the Dwarvish language, from the Ardalambion site.

Under the section, The Structure of Khuzdul, the language's basic structure is discussed and is said to resemble that of a Semitic language, such as Arabic or Hebrew.

Bêthberry · 08-22-2005, 06:23 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mithalwen

Risking condemning this thread to a rapid transfer to mirth you might make a case for identifying dwarves as Oxford dons of a certain era.... grumpy, insular, proud, clannish, obsessed by their work above all things, prefering to keep their womenfolk tucked away and a distressing tendancy towards facial hair in the female of the species.....

My, Mithalwen, I can just imagine dwarves participating in the raucous town and gown shambles.

The bit about secret names: how different is this from the habit of creating online anonymous nicknames and keeping personal names private?

mark12_30 · 08-22-2005, 08:01 AM

'T'ain't.

**The Saucepan Man** · 08-22-2005, 08:39 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tolkien

Under the section, The Structure of Khuzdul, the language's basic structure is discussed and is said to resemble that of a Semitic language, such as Arabic or Hebrew.

Didn't Tolkien, in a radio interview, compare the Dwarves (not unfavourably) to Jews? Is there any evidence to suggest that he may have based their language on Hebrew too?

piosenniel · 08-22-2005, 09:47 AM

Here is a re-cap from this publication:

Quote:

Then, in a 1971 BBC radio interview two years before he died, he [Tolkien] was asked if the different races in The Lord of the Rings represent specific character-istics, "the elves wisdom, the dwarves craftsman-ship, men husbandry and battle, and so forth?"

"I didn’t intend it, but when you’ve got these people on your hands you’ve got to make them different, haven’t you?" he replied. "The dwarves of course are quite obviously — wouldn’t you say that in many ways they remind you of the Jews? Their words are Semitic, obviously, constructed to be Semitic. The Hobbits are just rustic English people."

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

And HERE's the whole 1971 interview.

~*~ Pio

Frodo Baggins · 08-22-2005, 02:36 PM

From the little I know abot runes (and I mean LITTLE) Dwarf Runes seem more akin to Viking Runes than Anglo Saxon runes.

The Squatter of Amon Rûdh · 08-24-2005, 12:52 PM

That depends on which stage of conception we're talking about. The Dwarf-runes used in The Hobbit are unquestionably of the Anglo-Saxon type, and Tolkien confirms it:

Quote:

There is the matter of the Runes. Those used by Thorin and Co., for special purposes, were comprised in an alphabet of thirty-two letters... similar to, but not identical, with the runes of Anglo-Saxon inscriptions.

Letter #25, to the editor of the Observer, printed 20 February 1938

Earlier he is less circumspect:

Quote:

...except for the runes (Anglo-Saxon) and the dwarf-names (Icelandic), neither used with antiquarian accuracy, and both regretfully substituted to avoid abstruseness for the genuine alphabets and names of the mythology into which Mr Baggins intrudes - I am afraid my professional knowledge is not directly used.

Letter #15, remarks included with a letter to Allen and Unwin, 31 August 1937.

The Angerthas is Tolkien's own invention, although obviously inspired by the runes of the Futhark. Basically (and rather too simply) the Anglo-Saxon and Norse runes are descended from the same alphabet. There's more than one Scandinavian runic alphabet, but for an explanation of them all you need a runologist. There are plenty of rune sites on the web, but if it isn't a university you can't trust it.

Thinlómien · 08-25-2005, 06:52 AM

I would rather associate khuzdul with russian language... They somehow sound the same...

Lobelia · 09-05-2005, 09:04 PM

Actually, the English runes are only used in THE HOBBIT. By the time we read the runes on Balin's tomb in LOTR, they're - well, not English any more. I remember being rather annoyed that I couldn't read the inscription.

I think what Tolkien said (elsewhere?) was that he only thought of Dwarves as Jews because of being scattered and having a language they only speak among themselves. In fact, if there's anything Semitic about the language, it's not Hebrew anyway, or even remotely Hebrew, unless you count the throaty sound of Kh, and there are other languages that have this sound.

08-20-2005, 02:31 PM	#5
Gil-Galad Psyche of Prince Immortal Join Date: Feb 2003 Location: Above a Parapet Obvious exits are: North, South, and Dennis Posts: 4,734	Dwarves have been in Norse Mythology, so Tolkien might have just used the Norse Dwarves as an example for his book __________________ Love doesn't blow up and get killed.

08-21-2005, 12:38 PM	#6
Mithalwen Pilgrim Soul Join Date: May 2004 Location: watching the wonga-wonga birds circle... Posts: 9,458	Risking condemning this thread to a rapid transfer to mirth you might make a case for identifying dwarves as Oxford dons of a certain era.... grumpy, insular, proud, clannish, obsessed by their work above all things, prefering to keep their womenfolk tucked away and a distressing tendancy towards facial hair in the female of the species..... __________________ “But Finrod walks with Finarfin his father beneath the trees in Eldamar.” Christopher Tolkien, Requiescat in pace

08-21-2005, 02:15 PM	#7
Guinevere Banshee of Camelot Join Date: May 2002 Location: Switzerland Posts: 5,830	I just found an interesting thread on this topic: Ancient British cultures reflected in Middle-earth especially posts # 25 (by Rumil), #26 (by the Squatter of Amon Rûdh) and #35 (by Man of the Old Hope) are very enlightening. __________________ Yes! "wish-fulfilment dreams" we spin to cheat our timid hearts, and ugly Fact defeat!

08-21-2005, 05:06 PM	#8
piosenniel Desultory Dwimmerlaik Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: Pickin' flowers with Bill the Cat..... Posts: 7,779	Here is a short discussion of Khuzdul, the Dwarvish language, from the Ardalambion site. Under the section, The Structure of Khuzdul, the language's basic structure is discussed and is said to resemble that of a Semitic language, such as Arabic or Hebrew. __________________ Eldest, that’s what I am . . . I knew the dark under the stars when it was fearless - before the Dark Lord came from Outside.

08-22-2005, 08:01 AM	#10
mark12_30 Stormdancer of Doom Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: Elvish singing is not a thing to miss, in June under the stars Posts: 4,349	'T'ain't. __________________ ...down to the water to see the elves dance and sing upon the midsummer's eve.

08-20-2005, 10:47 AM	#1
Morsul the Dark Ghost Prince of Cardolan Join Date: May 2004 Posts: 3,448	By george dwarves are british, i think Dwarven language very little is known about it for it is only used amongst theemselves dwarves don't even let out their right names. but we have one clue moon letters, which if im not mistaken follow fashion of anglo-saxon runes in fact they are anglo-saxon rune so one could argue that dwarves speak anglo-saxon as ther secret language...right? __________________ Morsul the Resurrected

08-20-2005, 11:20 AM	#2
the guy who be short Shadowed Prince Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: Thulcandra Posts: 2,343	Nope. LotR = 3rd Age = Several thousand years ago. Anglo-Saxon = 7th Age = Several centuries ago. Plus all the other stuff I don't have time to type right at the moment.

08-20-2005, 02:10 PM	#3
Alcarillo Shadow of the Past Join Date: Jul 2005 Location: Minas Mor-go Posts: 1,007	If any race was more Anglo-Saxon than any others it must be the Rohirrim. Tolkien showed Rohirric as Old-English, after all. An assumption based merely on runes seems to me like jumping to conclusions. We in fact do have a few words that come from Khuzdul, and they look rather alien to Old English. There's Barazinbar, Zirakzigil, Bundushathur, Buzundush, Azaghal, Azanulbizar, Mazarbul, Kibil-Nala, Sharbhund, and many other examples. We have examples of "secret" names for the petty-dwarves: Mim, Ibal. Note: I have left out diacritic marks for the sake of convenience.

08-22-2005, 02:36 PM	#13
Frodo Baggins Ghost Prince of Cardolan Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: Bag-End, Under-Hill, Hobbiton-across-the Water Posts: 606	From the little I know abot runes (and I mean LITTLE) Dwarf Runes seem more akin to Viking Runes than Anglo Saxon runes. __________________ "I'm your huckleberry....that's just my game."

08-25-2005, 06:52 AM	#15
Thinlómien Shady She-Penguin Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: In a far land beyond the Sea Posts: 8,093	I would rather associate khuzdul with russian language... They somehow sound the same... __________________ Like the stars chase the sun, over the glowing hill I will conquer Blood is running deep, some things never sleep Double Fenris

09-05-2005, 09:04 PM	#16
Lobelia Wight Join Date: Feb 2003 Location: Australia Posts: 150	Actually, the English runes are only used in THE HOBBIT. By the time we read the runes on Balin's tomb in LOTR, they're - well, not English any more. I remember being rather annoyed that I couldn't read the inscription. I think what Tolkien said (elsewhere?) was that he only thought of Dwarves as Jews because of being scattered and having a language they only speak among themselves. In fact, if there's anything Semitic about the language, it's not Hebrew anyway, or even remotely Hebrew, unless you count the throaty sound of Kh, and there are other languages that have this sound.