3 + 9, x (7+12) Divided by Eleventy-one... oh dear

[the guy who be short]

Here in the Books, we enjoy endlessly dissecting little phrases and sentences to the point of sadism. But what of those numbers...?

I'm aware that a few threads already exist on the significance of numbers in Tolkien, and will provide a few links. However, I've created a new thread for new input and also because I want to discuss a few things specifically rather than numbers as a whole.
The Power of Nine
Unoriginality
Deeper symbolism and hidden meanings in the books

Well, enjoy dragging yourself through those.

Now, the first question likely to cause dissent is: Did Tolkien consciously choose numbers in his works as some sort of symbolism?

The first part of the question can be answered with a resounding "Yes." The numbers 3 and 7, in particular, are repeated so often that there is almost no chance of it being down to chance! Observe:

3 Silmarils, 3 rings, 3 houses of the Eldar, 3 houses of the Edain, 3 sons of Finwe, 3 Unions of Elves and Men.

7 Dwarf Houses, 7 Durins, 7 Rings, 7(?) Balrogs, 7 Valar, 7 Valier, 7 Sons of Feanor, 7 Days in the Numenorean week, 7 Stars, 7 Palatíri.

Two other numbers can also be given a mention. 9, obviously, as the number of Nazgul, rings and Walkers.

12 and 144 (the former's square) as the Elves preferred form of counting, the Number of Original Elves and the combined age of Bilbo and Frodo.

Obviously there is far too much here to be disputed. For some reason, Tolkien specifically chose 3, 7 and 12 (and perhaps, though less clearly, 9) to play large parts in his mythology.

Why?

And that's where the fun begins! I have one or two ideas of my own, but I need to do a little research. I'm more than likely to dismiss the usual ideas of numerology - I just don't see Tolkien being interested in that sort of thing. I think his numbers would be likely to have more mythological or religious connotations (I think 7 in particular has some sort of Christian connotation?) than be related to numerology. Until I do get round to doing a little research on the matter, I leave it to you, my dear BarrowDowners, to discuss the issue, as I'm sure that several amongst you will have the necessary knowledge regarding mythology and religion.

[Gurthang]

Well, you are right about 7 having something(OK, quite a bit) to do with Christianity. God created the world in 7 days. Many of Israel's laws of festivals and such had to do with 7. Every 7th year was called Jubilee, and was somewhat like a year off; similar to the 7 days of the week where the Sabbath was a holiday. Noah was required to take 2 of all animals on the Ark except those that were clean. There were to be 7 of all clean animals on the Ark. (That's a little know fact, but it is in the Bible. ) Seven was considered to be a Holy number, the perfect number, the number of God if you will. That's also why 666 is evil. It's saying that Satan tried to come up to God's standard three times, but fell short each time.

I believe 12 is in the Bible frequently also. Like 12 Tribes of Israel and 12 Disciples. I'm not sure about 3 and 9 though. Hmm... I'll have to go look at that.

[Joy]

Well, I can tell you what these #'s mean in terms of Biblical Numerics.

3 - Divine Perfection
7 - Resurrection, Spiritual perfection, completness
9 - judgement
12 - Governmental perfection, law
144 - Life guided by the Spirit

Take from that what you will.

[the guy who be short]

I also came across a few websites declaring seven as the preferred number of god, the number of completion and perfection.

But then, contrast this to Tolkien's world.

The Seven sons of Feanor - Great, but all fell.
Seven Palantiri - Conceived well, most lost, captured by Sauron or destroyed.
Seven (arguably) Balrogs - Evil.
Seven Rings - Enslaved Dwarves.
Seven Dwarf Houses - Four of them fell, I believe. Not created by Eru.
Seven days - A Mannish adaptation of the Elvish system, and therefore not as good.
Seven Durins - Imperfect as they weren't created by Eru.

Seven Valar and Seven Valier - Pure.
Seven Stars - Pure.

The number 7 in Tolkien doesn't appear to reflect purity, virtue or general holiness other than in the case of the Valar and stars. Quite often we see Seven conceived in good - Palantiri, Feanor's sons (conceived in love), Seven Dwarves houses that then fall. Also, the Mannish adaptation of a 7 day week could be seen as less perfect than the Elvish 6 day week.

[the phantom]

I'm going to explain Tolkien's use of three and seven in a completely non-Tolkien, non-symbolic, non-anything way...

If you want something to be rare, three is a good number to pick. Having only one or two of something is too rare, but four is starting to be quite a few. Three is just right.

And seven- well, if you want only a few of something but not too few, and if you want several but not too many, a number between six and nine would work the best (because once you get to ten you are in double digits, which is too many, where as five is still too close to three). So which number do you pick- six, seven, eight, or nine? Well, knock the first and last off to get closer to the middle and you are left with seven and eight. Now, which of those numbers is a sexier, more appealing number?

I think we'd all agree that seven is the way to go.

[davem]

Originally Posted by the phantom

I think we'd all agree that seven is the way to go.

Well, seven does seem to have a significance for the Numenoreans - Minas Tirith has seven circles, & in Tolkien's illustration of it Orthanc also has seven tiers.

[Bêthberry]

Originally Posted by the guy who be short

I also came across a few websites declaring seven as the preferred number of god, the number of completion and perfection.

I don't suppose these websites explained just how 'god' made clear his preference, did they?

[AbercrombieOfRohan]

Don't forget the number 33, which is the hobbits coming of age, but was also the age of Jesus was when he was crucified.

I don't think 33 is used anywhere else, but correct me if I'm wrong...

[the guy who be short]

Beth - All I know (and, regarding religion, that's not a lot) is that Seven appears a lot in the Bible. There are 7 churches, 7 Spirits, 7 stars, 7 seals, 7 trumpets, 7 vials, 7 personages, 7 dooms, and 7 new things - apparently in the Book of Revelation alone. To give numbers, its used more than 700 times in the Bible and 54 times in the Book of Revelation. It's also used more than any other number in the Bible other than One. 7 Days of Creation, 7th Day of Sabbath, 7 Weeks between Passover and Pentecost, 7 Day Feasts, Every 7th year the farms left fallow, Every 49th year a year of Jubilee...

I'm no expert, but one would presume all these references to 7 are connected and have some significance.

Apparently, Seven is a sign of completeness as it merges "the perfect world number, 4 and the perfect divine number, 3." Four represents "the four square Earth" [the four compass points? ), and Three the Trinity, so that Seven represents the union of Earth and Heaven, and thus completeness.

Disclaimer: I don't believe the above! Though I guess it makes as much sense as anything else, and I do think that all those Biblical 7s must have some meaning behind them. 7 could simply signify completion because God seems to favour it so much.

In any case, accepting the Biblical 7 to be a number of completeness... why did Tolkien seem to pervert this? As I've mentioned above, the 7s in Tolkien seem to fall or be partially corrupted.

In the Case of the Valar, the Valier and the Stars, 7 probably does reflect completeness and divine favour though. As davem said, the Numenoreans picked up on this too - 7 circles, 7 day week, harmony with God.

Consciously Christian in the revision, eh?

[mark12_30]

Originally Posted by Bêthberry

I don't suppose these websites explained just how 'god' made clear his preference, did they?

Some people have lots of fun counting how many times seven is used in various works considered sacred.

Regarding the Christian bible, seven does show up quite a bit. (I haven't counted.) Revelation in particular is 7-heavy.

In the Old Testament twelve is a very popular number, but Tolkien didn't seem too taken up with that one.

Generally speaking, I think Tolkien was more worried about the spirituality of his characters than the spirituality of the numbers he used. Since so many of his themes/ motifs are myth-based I would expect some of his number games to be myth based as well.

I just think it's fun arranging seven stars around one white tree.

[the phantom]

Some people have lots of fun counting how many times seven is used in various works considered sacred.

I think about everyone uses seven. Every book I have has a page seven.

But seriously, I'm not joking here- seven is a cool number. Say it. It has an edge to it... seven... sssseven....

It looks pretty cool, too. It's only a horizontal line and a slanted line so it seems weird that it could look cool, but wouldn't you agree that seven is a cool looking number? Just look at it-> 7

When I said it was a sexy number, I meant it. "Seven" even starts the same as "sexy".

There are many gambling games that involve rolling the number seven with dice. There are also games that use seven as a wild card. If you pull the lever on a slot machine and get sevens across it is a very good thing. I know a lot of people who consider seven their lucky number.

Seventeen magazine is one of the most popular magazines in the country. Why isn't Sixteen or Eighteen so popular?

But don't completely disregard my entire post as nonsense. I really think there's something to it. Sure, Prof T might have gone with seven for a concrete reason (to mirror something Biblical or something in a Norse myth), but I also think that he might've picked seven anyway without religious influence just because seven is a great number.

I know I would've picked it.

*everyone stares at phantom not quite knowing what to think*

[Folwren]

It appears that you've gotten several answers like the answer I was intending to post when I read your first post, TGWBS. Those numbers are everywhere in the Bible, as are several others, but sometimes they can be difficult to see and pick out.

I won't go into detail because I don't have time and others have already commented on it.

- Folwren

[Shelob]

Phantom may be on to something...

Looking solely at the numbers 0-9, because people use a base 10 system and those are the digits upon which everything else is based, the numbers which tend to catch the eye/mind most are the odd numbers and 2. Ignoring 2 and looking just at the odd numbers I think it makes sense for 7 and 3 to set themselves apart. Look at it this way:

1 -- oneself, holds importance because it is representative of the individual
3 -- ?
5 -- number of digits on one hand, an easy-to-work-with sensical number (as is 10: two sets of five, total number of fingers, base-10)
7 -- ?
9 -- three squared, three sets of three...

I know that 9's reason for being important is based off of 3 and 3 doesn't have a reason. But by dint of not holding any material specialness I think that 3 and 7 naturally take on a more spiritual significance...fearing what we don't know and all that. Taking that as true 9 (three sets of three) and concievably 49 (seven sets of seven) are of even more importance than just 3 and 7.

As for why 7 would be used-more-often/more-important than 3 my guess would be that it's bigger, people are always drawn towards big things (mountains for example) even if for no other reason than "because it's there".


...I'm thinking that that 2 I ignored earlier could be of some importance as well, not necesarily in Tolkiens work but in the way we tend to assign importance to other numbers...

[Bêthberry]

Originally Posted by the phantom

I think about everyone uses seven. Every book I have has a page seven.

But seriously, I'm not joking here- seven is a cool number. Say it. It has an edge to it... seven... sssseven....

It looks pretty cool, too. It's only a horizontal line and a slanted line so it seems weird that it could look cool, but wouldn't you agree that seven is a cool looking number? Just look at it-> 7

When I said it was a sexy number, I meant it. "Seven" even starts the same as "sexy".

Forgive me, the phantom, for not completely following your argument here. I think that, if you had included a reference to Tolkien's preference for cellar door I might have been thoroughly sure what you mean. (See piosenniel's quotation of Tolkien on Welsh in post # 9.) Is that what you are getting at? The lurvely sound and idea of seven as it trips off the tongue?

I mean, I think sooner or later this is going to come around to 'real meaning' versus just enjoyment. If you know what I mean.

[davem]

Originally Posted by The Phantom

Sure, Prof T might have gone with seven for a concrete reason (to mirror something Biblical or something in a Norse myth), but I also think that he might've picked seven anyway without religious influence just because seven is a great number.

There are some things in LotR which have a specifically Christian reference - but they tend to be 'hidden'. He stated himself that the date of the fall of Barad-dur - March 25th, the old date of Good Friday - was chosen deliberately ('Guide to the names in LotR' in Lobdell), but this is easily (& intentionally so on Tolkien's part) missed by general readers. The number 'symbolism' in the story - the 'Numenorean' seven for instance, seems to have a meaning within the story & its there we should look for it, not in the Primary world.

[Lyta_Underhill]

1 -- oneself, holds importance because it is representative of the individual
3 -- ?
5 -- number of digits on one hand, an easy-to-work-with sensical number (as is 10: two sets of five, total number of fingers, base-10)
7 -- ?
9 -- three squared, three sets of three...

Also, the numbers 2,3,5 and 7 are prime numbers, meaning divisible only by the number itself and 1. Perhaps it is something in the non-reducibility of 3 and 7 that make them significant? Well, in some realms, anyway! But then where does that leave 2 and 5? [I just noticed that Hilde Bracegirdle beat me to this observation by some years...oh well!] Anyway, I think the significance of numbers in any work or in any connotation boils down to how much fun human brains have when playing with numbers. Just think what would be significant if our system was hexadecimal...I'm sure there are lots of hex-code writers out there who have really obscure jokes based on some orderly arrangement of base 16 numbers, and perhaps one day, when computers really do become self-aware, their humor and literature will have a rich history of hexadecimal system significators...

Cheers!
Lyta

[the guy who be short]

Originally Posted by mark12_30

Generally speaking, I think Tolkien was more worried about the spirituality of his characters than the spirituality of the numbers he used. Since so many of his themes/ motifs are myth-based I would expect some of his number games to be myth based as well.

I would say his faith probably inpacted the numbers as well as myth. As davem later said, there is Christian symbology in some of the numbers.

the phantom - Erm. Well. You're probably picking up on the "luckiness" of seven that is very existant in the Western world and has been for centuries. Perhaps this luckiness originated from the Bible, but it is there... people think of "Lucky Seven" as the opposite of "Unlucky Thirteen."

Originally Posted by Shelob

But by dint of not holding any material specialness I think that 3 and 7 naturally take on a more spiritual significance.

Probably. Maybe that's why 7 is everywhere in the Bible? Oh, welcome back!

Originally Posted by davem

The number 'symbolism' in the story - the 'Numenorean' seven for instance, seems to have a meaning within the story & its there we should look for it, not in the Primary world.

But the significance would probably have a source in the Primary World, wouldn't it? Would Tolkien just pick a few numbers at random to be favoured in his world? I'd argue that he would have been influenced subconsciously, at the least, by the Primary world, and particularly from the two main influences of LotR - Religion and Myth.

Originally Posted by Lyta_Underhill

Also, the numbers 2,3,5 and 7 are prime numbers, meaning divisible only by the number itself and 1. Perhaps it is something in the non-reducibility of 3 and 7 that make them significant?

That's also very likely to be true. However, discussion seems to veering in the direction of "Why are particular numbers important in the Real World?" which, though it could have influenced Tolkien's use of numbers, isn't the point in question.


In any case, I believe the mystery of the Threes is solved. Three, as Joy said, is the number of Divine Perfection because of the Trinity.
The Three Silmarils are holy artefacts shining with the light of the trees.
The Three Houses of the Eldar - they accepted the summons of the Valar, thus entering the world of Eru.
The Three Houses of the Edain - by accepting the Eldar, they accept the Valar and Eru.
Three Unions of Elves and Men - The Perfect Number. There's something very holy about the Unions - they seem predestined by Eru to insert a strain of the Eldar into Men, thereby preserving them.

Those are the Definites. There are two more instances of Threes mentioned above.
The Three Elven Rings - I'm not entirely sure about these. The Three, in my eyes, represent the fall of the Eldar and their resistance to change - nothing holy there, quite the opposite.
The Three Sons of Finwe - Can be discounted as unimportant. They don't have the same significance as the rest of the above.

One question solved?

EDIT: A thought. Eru originally had the Elder Children and the Followers. The adoption of the Dwarves could then be seen as an act of completion - Eru accepts the Dwarves and thus has Three sets of Children (The Dwarves being a secondary creation, but still belonging and owing life to Eru). Perhaps the creation of the Dwarves and their adoption was pre-destined (I can't see Eru not knowing it would happen), thereby allowing the Valar to contribute to the Completion of the Children?

[Bêthberry]

Sorry, I missed seeing these replies yesterday.

Originally Posted by Bethberry

I don't suppose these websites explained just how 'god' made clear his preference, did they?

Originally Posted by the guy who be short

Beth - All I know (and, regarding religion, that's not a lot) is that Seven appears a lot in the Bible. There are 7 churches, 7 Spirits, 7 stars, 7 seals, 7 trumpets, 7 vials, 7 personages, 7 dooms, and 7 new things - apparently in the Book of Revelation alone. To give numbers, its used more than 700 times in the Bible and 54 times in the Book of Revelation. It's also used more than any other number in the Bible other than One. 7 Days of Creation, 7th Day of Sabbath, 7 Weeks between Passover and Pentecost, 7 Day Feasts, Every 7th year the farms left fallow, Every 49th year a year of Jubilee...

I'm no expert, but one would presume all these references to 7 are connected and have some significance.

Apparently, Seven is a sign of completeness as it merges "the perfect world number, 4 and the perfect divine number, 3." Four represents "the four square Earth" [the four compass points? ), and Three the Trinity, so that Seven represents the union of Earth and Heaven, and thus completeness.

Originally Posted by Helen

Some people have lots of fun counting how many times seven is used in various works considered sacred.

Regarding the Christian bible, seven does show up quite a bit. (I haven't counted.) Revelation in particular is 7-heavy.

In the Old Testament twelve is a very popular number, but Tolkien didn't seem too taken up with that one.

Ah, so it's the reader who counts the references and makes the deduction, then. No direct Authorial statement to the effect, "And remember the seventh number to keep it holy," ?

[davem]

Originally Posted by TGWBS

But the significance would probably have a source in the Primary World, wouldn't it? Would Tolkien just pick a few numbers at random to be favoured in his world? I'd argue that he would have been influenced subconsciously, at the least, by the Primary world, and particularly from the two main influences of LotR - Religion and Myth.

Quite possibly, but if we have to seek the 'meaning' outside the secondary world it means Tolkien has failed to produce a secondary reality that can stand on its own two feet & needs support from outside.

[Shelob]

...if we have to seek the 'meaning' outside the secondary world... ~Davem

I'm not sure we're really looking for 'meaning' here...we're looking for similarities, possible sources where Tolkien could have tried to draw parallels between his world and ours. If we go about looking for the meaning outside the books themselves we're going to get cases like TGWBS got with 3, some/most book-examples will fit the outside meaning but a few won't...and those few will sit there stewing and gnawing at the back of our minds.

To get a meaning for any of these numbers we'd have to look at Tolkien's likely sources and pick out elements which could be worked into the books while at the same time looking just at where the numbers appear in the books and what patterns, unrelated to anything outside the books, crop up within their uses.

[littlemanpoet]

Sorry if I'm repeating somebody because I've only read the first half of the posts, but on why Tolkien would "pervert" the number seven....

That's a strange way to word it. But anyway, six is considered by many christians to be the number of IMperfection. Maybe Jews too, but I don't know about that. So 7 is perfect, and the failure or fall of something that started out at 7, well, just fits. It starts out perfect, and gets ruined or falls into disrepair or is stolen by
Sauron, what have you.

[The Saucepan Man]

Originally Posted by littlemanpoet

But anyway, six is considered by many christians to be the number of IMperfection. Maybe Jews too, but I don't know about that. So 7 is perfect, and the failure or fall of something that started out at 7, well, just fits.

So why aren't there six deadly sins, rather than seven?

[littlemanpoet]

Originally Posted by The Saucepan Man

So why aren't there six deadly sins, rather than seven?

A perfect number of sins? Got me. I'm no theologian. ::LMP shrugs::

[Estelyn Telcontar]

Regarding the number of 7 as meaning perfection - think "complete", not "flawless". That would explain the 7 deadly sins, as a complete number of them, also the 7 palantíri, etc.

[Feanor of the Peredhil]

Originally Posted by the phantom

When I said it was a sexy number, I meant it. "Seven" even starts the same as "sexy".

I always found "6" to be rather sexier. Doesn't it look explosive? Like a little round bomb with a fuse coming off the top?

There are many gambling games that involve rolling the number seven with dice. There are also games that use seven as a wild card. If you pull the lever on a slot machine and get sevens across it is a very good thing. I know a lot of people who consider seven their lucky number.

But none of these have to do with the religious connotations, phantom ol' buddy. And if they do, then they might just share a common bond with Tolkien's work. Just think... Bilbo with Craps. Doesn't that just sound interesting?

Originally Posted by davem the birthday-boy

There are some things in LotR which have a specifically Christian reference - but they tend to be 'hidden'.

Ooh, I've just turned into a Werewolf player again. Think sneakily. Did Tolkien tend more often to hide his references? He's very accomplished with his subtlety. Would most people notice most of his sneaking?

But perhaps he's being obvious about it on purpose to make us second guess it.

Or maybe, like the phantom says, there's nothing to it and we're over thinking it all.

Choices A, B, or C. To be honest, I think he used the "religious" numbers intentionally and obviously. No big deal. After all, he also used "angels", "God", the fallen "angel" as the ultimate bad guy...

[Mithalwen]

I saw one of those gruesome "Their hands in your life" style hospital watch programmes a few years ago and a surgeon was fitting a heart valve while being questioned by a particularly inane presenter. When asked how many knots he used the Surgeon replied seven and when asked why he replied that it was because it meant completeness in Hebrew.

[Elladan and Elrohir]

Don't really have anything to add to this discussion except to say that there were eight palantiri, not seven. Granted, only seven made it to Middle-earth.

There, that clears everything up, doesn't it?

[the guy who be short]

Originally Posted by Elladan and Elrohir

There were eight palantiri, not seven.

Perhaps we're witnessing some Discworld infiltration?

[littlemanpoet]

Originally Posted by Elladan and Elrohir

Don't really have anything to add to this discussion except to say that there were eight palantiri, not seven. Granted, only seven made it to Middle-earth.

You're joking, right? You had better be joking, because we're messing around with the rescue of the palantiri in Prisoner of Numenor rpg, and if this is so, it messes everything up! .... that is, as long as we're trying to be canonical. You, um, are joking, aren't you?

[Feanor of the Peredhil]

I thought we had Canonicity safely shipped off to Mordor. With her gone, there's naught to worry about.

On a more serious (and slightly more related) note... there were eight palantirs!?! Are you sure? I always thought... "seven stars, seven stones, one white tree". Did I miss out on something?
And speaking of numbers... is there a biblical importance for "9"? We've got our holy trinity of elven rings, our perfect number of dwarven rings, our ultimate power source of one ring... and then nine. Interesting though, that the "holy trinity" bit goes to the Elves, who are more spiritual beings than Man. The "perfect number" goes to the perfectionists that are dwarves, and the "one" is for the one force that can make or break existance in Middle Earth.

[Shelob]

"is there a biblical importance for "9"?" ~Feanor of the Peredhil

I'm not sure of a biblical importance...but again 9 is three sets of three (three squared)...a trinity of trinities...so on and so forth...rather special in that way...

Though as for it's use specifically with the rings I always assumed it was so that they added up to 20.
3+7=10
1+9=10
10+10=20

Is there any special importance in 20 then? Or, specifically with the rings again, is there any importance to the fact that the halfs (the sets of ten) were elf/dwarf and Sauron/man? (though that second question's probably more off-topic than should be discussed here.)

[Angry Hill Troll]

On a more serious (and slightly more related) note... there were eight palantirs!?! Are you sure? I always thought... "seven stars, seven stones, one white tree". Did I miss out on something?

Well, seven or eight palantiri could be considered canonical. In the Palantiri section of UT, CT notes that in some of his father's manuscripts on the subject, it is mentioned that there is a Master Stone in Tol Eressëa. Presumably this was used by the elves to communicate with the Faithful of Númenor. Also, since it was Fëanor who made the palantiri, and having seven sons, it seems logical that he would have had one for himself as a sort of family intercom system.

But, CT mentions that in other of JRRT's manuscripts, there is no mention of the Master Stone. So it's back to the old question of which unpublished manuscript which Tolkien left should be considered Canonical. In any event only 7 palantiri ever came to Middle-earth.

[littlemanpoet]

Originally Posted by Angry Hill Troll

In any event only 7 palantiri ever came to Middle-earth.

And therefore only 7 palantiri ever were in Númenor. Thanks for the clarification.

[The Perky Ent]

Done!

171/111 I hope you didn't want me to simlify.

...wait? this wasn't about Algebra? You were actually talking about something important? Well...while you're here...



3 and 7 look like biggies. I don't know if anyone has mentioned it, but 3 seems to have a somewhat more interesting role in my opinoin. Ever read a fairy tail? Chances are, there will be three of something. Three pigs, Goldilox, etc. i remember finding out the answer to why this is, but I have forgotten it I guess three is just one of those magical numbers.

For seven, I have nothing more to add, except that, maybe Tolkien wanted his book to get published, so he put little "lucky charms", if you will, throughout his book, to try and make it sell better. Just an guess (and a bad one at that).

I wanna see that 8th Palantir