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08-06-2005, 12:35 PM | #1 |
Ghost Prince of Cardolan
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Why Moria?
Why go through Moria?
As I recall both Aragorn and Gandalf either feared or hated the place...It may be because it was the only way....but was it? I was listening to the Hobbit and it occured to me Gandalf coulve taken the secret passage(the one Gollum used to live in. It says the orcs left the passages alone for a great while so wouldnt it be safe to say it was abandonned? and also afterwards if he was still alive they could have stayed with beo0rn for a bit to get themselves rested...I understand this route wouldn't have been as adventurous but if Tolkien was indeed writing basicly freestyle how far ahead did he think, what I mean is when He was writing the Mines of Moria bit was He already thinking about Lothlorien? Personally I would have went through the passage if I were Tolkien. But that just be my opinion. I mean I love the way iot is right now but is it possible they could have gone the other way?
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08-06-2005, 04:03 PM | #2 |
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When you say Gollum's secret passage do you mean the tunnels through which Gandalf and the dwarves and then Bilbo ran through when escaping the goblins? If so then they probably wouldn't have been able to go through there because of the goblins, and also wouldn't that have taken them in the wrong direction?
And Tolkien did actually think ahead as he wrote. In HoME you can see the plot outlines that he wrote and he had forseen at least the basic plot of Lothlorien before they even entered Moria.
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08-06-2005, 06:43 PM | #3 |
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It might have been possible for the Fellowship to go through the high pass and then down into the land of the Beornings. However, the problem with that path is that it would take them waaaay to close to Dol Guldur when they turned south.
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08-06-2005, 08:48 PM | #4 | |
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Another thing to note is that when they left Rivendell, the Fellowship had every reason to hope that they would be able to cross over the Redhorn Pass- and so into Lorien, which Gandalf apparently intended to visit, re this statement of Aragorn's:
Quote:
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05-04-2006, 11:45 AM | #5 |
Shade of Carn Dûm
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They should have gone over the Misty Mountains via the route the Dawrves, Gandalf and Bilbo went in The Hobbit.
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05-04-2006, 12:51 PM | #6 | |
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05-04-2006, 01:57 PM | #7 |
Shade of Carn Dûm
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But there was also no Balrog, which is something I think Gandalf cared about more than goblins.
As far as the Fellowship traveling East, it came down to the lesser of all the other evils. Or just process of elimination. -Boromir said they should make for the Gap of Rohan, but it was closed to them because of Sauruman's power in the area and the Eye looking West. Also, there were no real hospitable places to provide them with some up-to-date news on how fast Gondor was going to get beaten or some food or a bed(that would be Lothlorien). If The Fellowship could get across the Fords of Isen, would Theoden have accepted them under Wormtougne's power? And if they had deposed Grima, he would just tell Sauruman that the Ringbearer or Gandalf was there, and Sauruman's army was less than 100 miles away I believe. Then they would be tailed through the Entwash and Anorien until they reached the Drugs or Minas Tirith. -It was also mentioned one about taking "the western way" by coming near Druath Iaur and passing around the western end of the White Mountains, and traveling through the fiefs of Gondor along the coast. This would take too much time, and although they would be in hostile territory, there was no land that they could be assured traveling in secret, because there were no places like Rivendell or Lothlorien that they could get the news and not have to worry about being revealed. -And the High Pass? It wasn't really out of the way, and there wouldnt be more goblins than there were at the time of TH, and the actual pass dosnt even go under ground. They underground passage was just a cave network that the Thorin and Co tried to sleep in. It did however, stick them out in the Wild, and it would not take long to send a Ringwraith from Dol Gulder up the River if they were revealed to Sauron. Like Formedacil said. The biggest problem of the High Pass was that they did not have to decide direction until it was behind them. They had already planned to take the Redhorn Pass (which compared to the alternatives was obvuously the most direct). Thus Moria was already less than 20 miles away and the next direct. They had to gamble danger with speed, and I think that if Gandalf had told everyone that a balrog was in there and they understood, they wouldnt have been as Gimli-eager, but they still would have felt it was the only "way." ________ IOLITE VAPORIZER Last edited by Elu Ancalime; 03-03-2011 at 11:57 PM. |
05-04-2006, 04:04 PM | #8 |
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Gandalf did not know the balrog was there.
Nobody knew what Durin's Bane was.
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05-04-2006, 07:02 PM | #9 |
Shade of Carn Dûm
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Really?
Surely the survivors of Kazad-dum (I do know that there were survivors ) would have passed down the story in the fashoin of a war veteran who-dosnt-like-to-talk-about-it-but-we-pretty-much-know-what-happened-but-didnt-experience-it-way, and someone who was as close to the dwarves who was not a dwarf would know? It just lseemed logical, that although the Balrog had "shape shifting" powers or whatever, it seems that it would not move far out of the path from between the East Gate and West Gate. And the fact that it didnt anyway. Do you think there would be any reason for the Balrog to move? The goblins might have revered him as an "evil role model" or something, but I dont know if balrogs have feelings, so would it care if it lived on the corpses of his enemies surrounded by 'lackys' and somewhere tangible wealth? Just Wondering. ________ Mercedes-Benz Slr Mclaren Specifications Last edited by Elu Ancalime; 03-03-2011 at 11:57 PM. |
05-04-2006, 07:55 PM | #10 |
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At the end of the Battle of Aznulbizar, Dain Ironfoot looked into the gates of Khazad Dum and saw the Balrog still lingered and would not permit his people to enter to reclaim Moria.
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05-05-2006, 06:57 AM | #11 | |
Shade of Carn Dûm
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05-05-2006, 07:36 AM | #12 | |
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05-05-2006, 09:45 AM | #13 | ||
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05-10-2006, 06:52 AM | #14 | ||
Shade of Carn Dûm
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Quote:
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05-10-2006, 07:46 AM | #15 | ||
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Which begs the question as to why the Fellowship did not take the High Pass. It was close to Rivendell and safer than other passages over the Misty Mountains, as it was guarded by the Beornings. The only clue that I can find lies in the following passage in The Ring Goes South: Quote:
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05-10-2006, 08:03 AM | #16 |
Shade of Carn Dûm
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Plus the High Pass route would make them take longer, if you look at the distance. Maybe a few weeks.
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05-10-2006, 08:03 AM | #17 |
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Had they taken the High Pass, they would have come out on the other side of the Mountains far to the north. While the Pass itself might not have been closed, to travel south from there would have required passing dangerously close to Dol Guldur, an obstacle of the caliber of Minas Morgul. The Redhorn Gate left them in the uninhabited, neutral lands between the mountains and Lothlorien, all together a route less likely to draw Sauron's Eye. And as for the choice of Moria, Gandalf had passed through before safely. Were it not for Pippin and the well, it is likely that they could have gotten through in total secrecy, by an unguarded way.
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05-10-2006, 08:07 AM | #18 |
Shade of Carn Dûm
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With hindsight, the High Pass would have been safer. Speed was not as important as stealth in my view. One did not need to go near Dol Guldor to travel East of the Misty Mountains
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05-10-2006, 08:37 AM | #19 |
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So take a pass known to be the haunt of Goblins? Wasn't it somewhere mentioned that the activities of the orcs in the pass had increased since TH?
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05-10-2006, 10:34 AM | #20 | |||
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The High Pass was more or less on the same latitude as Rivendell and so would not have involved much of a greater distance than taking the Redhorn Pass (as was originally intended). It would take them slightly further north, but not by much. And the marginally greater distance is balanced by the fact that (as indicated in the quote I gave above), the country was much more barren, and the going therefore much slower, west of the mountains than east. As for Dol Guldur, the Fellowship could have avoided coming too close by staying west of the Anduin, near to the Misty Mountains. And, in any event, by the time that they came anywhere near Dol Guldur, they would almost be within Lothlorien. Quote:
So the main reason for not taking the High Pass would appear to be that it would take the Fellowship though more densely populated country which, although nominally safer, would give rise to a greater risk of being spotted by Sauron's spies.
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05-10-2006, 11:07 AM | #21 |
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I tend to agree with above arguments for heading East
or West, as opposed to South (although if the Redhorn gate was open it would also be a good option). They could have headed east past the Beornings and then gone down the River Running, getting to the area of the Sea of Rhun as a jumping off place for a dash to the south side of the Ered Lithui (hey, beats passing by Shelob and/or Minas Morgul as an entrance area! Alternately, despite Gandalf's worries, immediately after the Council of Rivendell head west to the Grey Havens, get Cirdan to send a small fleet, 2-3 boats at most, south of the Angren (any further by sea and there's corsair problems), and then go by land east to Lebennin and South Ithilien. Then either see the giant spider or head east around the mountains and so into south Mordor. Sea travel by elf sailors (hugging the coast) would be much quicker, and being near shore they could evade any enemy ships or stormy weather. There are problems with any route. Difficulties with the sea route include evading armies moving north, the length of the trip around mountains (unless JRRT invents another pass- or moves Shelob around ) and being stopped by Denethor.
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05-10-2006, 11:24 AM | #22 | ||
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05-10-2006, 02:02 PM | #23 | |
A Northern Soul
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Speed was important; safety was an issue whereever they went.
The snow that fell on Caradhras stopped the Fellowship in their tracks; it would've only been worse so far north (where Bilbo's High Pass lies). Quote:
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05-11-2006, 03:31 AM | #24 |
Shade of Carn Dûm
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The snow storm was at Redhorn, not East of Rivendell. No offence, but don't insert stuff into the story. Gandalf was referring to the Redhorn Pass then, as is clear as the colour of the letters.
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05-11-2006, 09:57 AM | #25 | |
A Northern Soul
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No offense, but once again, please read over what I said again. I didn't say he wasn't. Who inserted things into the story? I was saying there was a risk of harsh weather at Redhorn, which was unusual that far south.
Why would they risk harsher weather by going further north where it was more common, and take the longer route in face of impending doom? It is simply irrational to expect that they would've taken the High Pass. Gandalf never even considers that High Pass an option because of these things. I do not think he is an idiot! You might also note that they point out that it wasn't simply natural weather acting. Quote:
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05-11-2006, 10:20 AM | #26 | |
Ghost Prince of Cardolan
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Running) while longer and perhaps minimally colder (Caradhras was a tall peak so even its regular winter passages might well be as difficult as the High Pass). Also, the route east was generally secured by the Beornings, plus they could approach Mordor from a presumably unexpected point (The Sea of Rhun) as opposed to knocking on the front door (rather unwise).
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05-11-2006, 10:27 AM | #27 | |
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A good point, Moria was the logical, and safest choice.
However, Tolkien is also careful to emphasize their reluctance right to the end, and they decide to sleep on it, still undecided. In the end, the final decision to go to moria is made of pure necessity, whether they would have chosen to go there or not: Quote:
bombariffic
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05-11-2006, 02:05 PM | #28 | |
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Also, the Beornings may have held the upper Vale of Anduin, but to get at Mordor's "back door", the Fellowship would have had to pass through or around Mirkwood (which in addition to being the home of Dol Guldur was also a warzone). Then they would have had to strike out across Rhovannion, which was probably swarming with Easterlings and Orks, and then into Rhûn proper, which was not only full of Easterlings, but a part of Sauron's empire. The route that Frodo ended up taking may have been dangerous, but I think an alternative route in Mordor- which would have been too long anyway- would have been far more perillous.
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05-11-2006, 11:59 PM | #29 |
Haunting Spirit
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Another thing that could a have happened is that if they would have taken the Northern routes they could have ran into Giants. Like in The Hobbit.
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05-12-2006, 05:39 AM | #30 | ||
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Rhod, I would suggest that you tone down your aggressive style as it is not conducive to reasoned discussion. Better, perhaps, to direct your energies to getting your own facts straight rather than trying to discredit suggestions made by others.
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05-12-2006, 06:51 AM | #31 |
Shade of Carn Dûm
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Given Tolkien's description of the geography and meteorology of the north-west of Middle Earth, it is entirely reasonable to assume that both the High Pass above Rivendell and the more southerly Redhorn Gate would be impassable in mid-winter when the Fellowship set out.
I live in England which Tolkien took as his pattern for north-west Middle Earth. I'm a few minuets drive from the southern end of a chain of hills called The Pennines. These hills are less than 3000 feet in elevation but before the developement of twentieth century machinery many routes through them would be closed for months in winter. Even now, some roads are regularly closed for days. During a particularly severe winter in the 1970s a village called Flash, just 15 miles from my home, was cut off by snow for over three weeks. It's people and their farm animals were supplied by helicopter while the road-clearing crews from three counties, assisted by the Army and the Royal Air Force, battled against the weather to clear just three miles of road. Flash is at the same latitude as the High Pass and the Misty Mountains are very much higher than the Pennines, so I have always taken for granted that the Fellowship could not cross to the East until later in the year. I think that the fact that using the High Pass was not even considered in Rivendell means that there was more to it than just dodging a few orcs who were not under Sauron's control. . Last edited by Selmo; 05-12-2006 at 09:24 AM. |
05-12-2006, 07:44 AM | #32 |
Shade of Carn Dûm
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"Bilbo and company found themselves at the business end of a few rocks hurled by Stone Giants as they crossed the Misty Mountains, and Gandalf considered the possibility of borrowing one such rock to stop up the entrance to Goblin-Town. Or are you suggesting (as has been suggested before) that the Stone Giants were a product of Bilbo's fertile imagination?"
I'm sorry, I forgot that part. Though giants aren't mentioned to my memory in The Hobbit afterwars nor in The Lord of the Rings. "I would suggest that you tone down your aggressive style as it is not conducive to reasoned discussion." I would hardly call my style aggressive. I was responsing to a point of view with contrary arguments. If I have used rude words, you will note, to use Legolas' favourite phrase, the Admin. have not edited my posts. Reasoned discissuon has not been halted by me, nor will it.
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05-12-2006, 08:25 AM | #33 | |
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And I trust that’s an end to this little off-topic diversion.
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05-12-2006, 08:26 AM | #34 |
Ghost Prince of Cardolan
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Selmo and Formendacil make good arguments
about a Rhun route being questionable, but what about a sea route to the area of Andrast using an elf ship?
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05-12-2006, 08:31 AM | #35 |
Shade of Carn Dûm
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"what about a sea route to the area of Andrast using an elf ship"
I have a reason why: It would mean that as the Fellowship would approach Mordor, it would be near the battle-centers bewteen Gondor and Mordor. It would not have been safe. Crossing through the Misty Mountains, while hoping that Gondor would receive the brunt of Sauron's forces, was safer than travelling by the sea on the Southern shores of Gondor.
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05-12-2006, 09:13 AM | #36 |
Shade of Carn Dûm
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Elrond rules out taking the Ring to Cirdan at the Grey Havens because it would be too dangerous. Frodo and the rest had only just made it to Rivendell and taking the Western Road back through the Shire to the sea would be anticipated by the Enemy; the road would be watched. Elrond was answering the argument that the Ring should by taken by sea to The West but it works the same for an attempt to go to Gondor by sea.
Also, Gandalf seemed to think it was very important to pass though Lorien, though he never gave his reasons. Last edited by Selmo; 05-12-2006 at 09:22 AM. |
05-12-2006, 09:39 AM | #37 | |
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It is illogical to think that Gandalf, Aragorn, the Fellowship, or the Council of Elrond were not thinking of risks. The whole route is planned for speed and avoiding danger as much as possible (which is why they don't go further south by the Gap of Rohan). Aragorn uses the word "risk" in the comment at the top of this post.
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05-12-2006, 12:58 PM | #38 | |
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Think about the journey of the Fellowship. We start in the Shire, which I would think that many could at least 'see,' even if the person were from an urban environment. We then travel though the Old Forest (just some animated trees) to Bree, where we start to meet some stranger folk (yes, I know that I skipped Bombadil). After that it's Weathertop (easy to imagine) then Rivendell, which starts us getting used to the nonhuman dwellings. Next it's a lot of scenery (how exciting is the crossing of Hollin?) then Moria, former home of the Dwarves and chock full of mystery and danger. Then we go to Lothlorien, which is completely strange, then down the river onto more human dwellings (but with the story having become full of more action, the scenery gets toned down a bit). My point is that we needed to go through Moria to maintain the story and fantasy world. It's between Rivendell and Parth Galen that we dip back into the Second Age a bit; afterwards we return to the cusp of the Third and the Fourth Ages, and at that point the story is not so much "hey, look at this world," but "I've been walking with Sam and Frodo and Aragorn et al for so long now that I accept the fantastic scenery as normal and secondary to the lives of my 'walking companions'." Hope that that makes some sense .
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05-12-2006, 01:09 PM | #39 |
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I think I understand you, alatar.
I would like to add one more little thing to your theory, or maybe clear one of your points a bit: LotR is, in a way, a presentation of the diversity of Middle-Earth. If the fellowship wouldn't go through Moria, there'd be no glimpse of dwarven culture.
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05-12-2006, 01:53 PM | #40 | |
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