Visit The *EVEN NEWER* Barrow-Downs Photo Page |
|
View Poll Results: Gothmog was | |||
A Nazgûl | 15 | 34.09% | |
A Black Numenorean | 21 | 47.73% | |
An orc chieftan | 8 | 18.18% | |
Voters: 44. You may not vote on this poll |
|
Thread Tools | Display Modes |
08-04-2005, 12:04 PM | #1 |
Gibbering Gibbet
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: Beyond cloud nine
Posts: 1,844
|
Gothmog: the poll
Ha ha!! Another raging debate that needs settling….
Read, and then decide: Who/What is Gothmog? Gothmog???? Gothmog a nazgul? Gothmog? Gothmog and Sauron The WitchKing and Gothmog (And you can all blame Nilpaurion Felagund for this one…)
__________________
Scribbling scrabbling. Last edited by Fordim Hedgethistle; 08-04-2005 at 12:10 PM. |
08-04-2005, 02:49 PM | #2 |
Auspicious Wraith
Join Date: May 2002
Location: The Netherlands
Posts: 4,859
|
The madness continues!
I salute you Fordim (and Nilp). Now let me read through those threads. Incidentally, how come Hog isn't an option? EDIT TO ADD: Black Numenorean or some other twisted sort of Man. He might never have been to Numenor...
__________________
Los Ingobernables de Harlond Last edited by Eomer of the Rohirrim; 08-04-2005 at 03:10 PM. |
08-04-2005, 04:38 PM | #3 |
Ghost Prince of Cardolan
Join Date: May 2004
Posts: 3,448
|
Well after reading a bit...Two things came to me I didn't relize we don't know what the mouth of Sauron was either is it possible gothmog and the mouth are the two mysterious blue wizards as I recall from UT neither of the blue wizards had known names outside of those given them by the valar without a dictionary at habd what does gothmog translate too is there a translation?
__________________
Morsul the Resurrected |
08-04-2005, 07:44 PM | #4 |
Dead Serious
|
Gothmog- of the Lord of the Rings, is- in my humble opinion, mind- a Nazgul. For reasons more clearly stated elsewhere (no, I don't know where- ask someone else) he was most logically, as Lieutenant of Morgul, a Nazgul.
Of course, that's just my opinion and interpretation of the text.
__________________
I prefer history, true or feigned.
|
08-04-2005, 07:53 PM | #5 |
Maundering Mage
Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: Texas
Posts: 4,648
|
I would think that it would logically be a Nazgul. Sauron would want, if possible, somebody like a Nazgul to lead if he were not there. Why? He has great power and influence and essentially has no will but Sauron's will; therefore he would make the greatest leader in Sauron's mind. That is why his first in command was a Nazgul and so would his second.
__________________
“I wish it need not have happened in my time," said Frodo. "So do I," said Gandalf, "and so do all who live to see such times. But that is not for them to decide. All we have to decide is what to do with the time that is given us.” |
08-04-2005, 08:53 PM | #6 | |
Gibbering Gibbet
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: Beyond cloud nine
Posts: 1,844
|
Quote:
__________________
Scribbling scrabbling. |
|
08-04-2005, 10:26 PM | #7 |
Laconic Loreman
|
I think it could be a toss-up between Nazgul or some sort of man (Black Numenorean).
As stated in one of those Gothmog threads I started I basically ruled out that he was an orc. I just don't imagine Sauron trusting an Orc enough to be second in command to his entire army. Though since Tolkien did never say the possibility is still there, but to me I'm 99 percent sure Gothmog wasn't an orc. Simply for the reason that I don't see Sauron giving an Orc that hight up in position. What would you argue, 3rd in command (Witch-king, Mouth of Sauron, Gothmog)? It's reasonable to suspect he's another Nazgul. I mean if the Witch-King is first in command another nazgul could be second in command (would make sense). Problem is I thought Tolkien only came out and said he named two nazgul and he didn't feel it necessary to name them all (but I could be wrong). My guess has always been Black Numenorean. Gothmog does not sound like a "man" name, however is it possible that his name was forgotten and was later named Gothmog? Sort of like how the Mouth of Sauron's name was forgotten.
__________________
Fenris Penguin
|
08-04-2005, 11:05 PM | #8 |
Wight
Join Date: Oct 2002
Location: Ephel Duath
Posts: 115
|
Gothmog II
Whatever Gothmog was, he almost certainly wasn't going by his real name. The original Gothmog was Morgoth's Lord of Balrogs, who killed Fëanor and Fingon, before himself being killed by Ecthelion (a different one, not Boromir's grandfather ) in the Fall of Gondolin.
One question is, was Gothmog the "real" name of the Head Balrog? Tolkien doesn't seem to have decided what the origin of the name was. It may contain the same root as Morgoth, "the Black Enemy", which was actually the Sindarin translation of the name given to The Bad Guy Formerly Known As Melkor, by Fëanor. Was Gothmog the Balrog Lord's real name, or just the name by which the elves referred to him? I can't see a human being given the name Gothmog at birth, although perhaps for an orc it's plausible. It seems strange, though, if Gothmog was really a Sindarin name of insult, why Sauron would pick that as a pseudonym for his lieutenant. It would make sense that Sauron would want to give one of his top lieutenants the same name as one of the top lieutenants of his former master (although Sauron's Gothmog wasn't nearly as fearsome), so maybe Gothmog was the Balrog Lord's real name. |
08-05-2005, 11:48 PM | #9 |
Scion of The Faithful
Join Date: Apr 2003
Location: The brink, where hope and despair are akin. [The Philippines]
Posts: 5,312
|
Gothmog.
He wasn't an Orc, as Sauron wouldn't trust command of his main force to an Orc.
He couldn't be a Nazgûl, as Gothmog is an Sindarin name, and all of the Nazgûl are either Númenórean or Easterling Men, with names derived from their languages. He is most possibly a Black Númenórean. We have precedent for a lieutenant to be a Man. Most of you remember the Mouth of Sauron, right? He was the Lieutenant of Barad-dûr. I'm pretty sure he was a Black Númenórean. To those interested, here is where the whole thing started.
__________________
フェンリス鴨 (Fenrisu Kamo) The plot, cut, defeated. I intend to copy this sig forever - so far so good...
|
08-05-2005, 11:56 PM | #10 | |
Dead Serious
|
Quote:
After all, Sindarin was one of those languages of Numenor...
__________________
I prefer history, true or feigned.
|
|
08-06-2005, 12:01 AM | #11 |
Scion of The Faithful
Join Date: Apr 2003
Location: The brink, where hope and despair are akin. [The Philippines]
Posts: 5,312
|
Re:
But surely Sauron started recruiting Nazgûl potentials during the years of Anti-Elven Númenor. Those chaps would have Adûnaic names.
__________________
フェンリス鴨 (Fenrisu Kamo) The plot, cut, defeated. I intend to copy this sig forever - so far so good...
|
08-06-2005, 12:02 AM | #12 | |
Dead Serious
|
Quote:
And anyway, Sauron himself used Elven letters on the ONE RING, of all things. I'm not sold that it was a Nazgul (although I do think it most likely), just playing- ~The Devil's Advocate - Formendacil~
__________________
I prefer history, true or feigned.
|
|
08-06-2005, 01:04 AM | #13 |
Alive without breath
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: On A Cold Wind To Valhalla
Posts: 5,912
|
Oh good grief!
Humm. This just reminds me how long it has been since I read The Lord of the Rings.
Looking at the characteristics that Orcs show throughout The Lord of the Rings, I think that it is unlikely that Sauron would place one in charge of his armies. Orcs are very little more than a mindless rabble from what we see. I do not think Sauron was that stupid. I've not cast a vote yet as I think I'll need to think about it for a while. But so far, I don't think I'd be voting Orc. I'm also doubting Nazgul as I think all the other Nazgul are named at some point, aren’t they? (I can't honestly remember) But then again, The King of Angmar later became "The Witch King" so Sauron was a name changer. However, if Sauron wanted to name a second in command after the king of Balrogs, then I suppose a Nazgul would be the obvious choice... [EDIT] I've just voted Nazgul as it seemed the most likely.
__________________
I think that if you want facts, then The Downer Newspaper is probably the place to go. I know! I read it once. THE PHANTOM AND ALIEN: The Legend of the Golden Bus Ticket... Last edited by Hookbill the Goomba; 08-06-2005 at 01:06 AM. Reason: Rats in the pipes |
08-06-2005, 05:56 AM | #14 | ||||||||
Shadowed Prince
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: Thulcandra
Posts: 2,343
|
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
That said, I'm not yet decided, and haven't yet been through all the threads on the matter. EDIT: Quote:
Quote:
So yes, it would appear Sauron had started to choose his Nazgul potentials early on, but they would probably still have Adunaic names. So I don't think Gothmog could be a Nazgul. Quote:
Actually, what if Gothmog was simply the name given by the West to the lieutenant? In that case, he would have a different name in the black speech, and so all this language debate would be pointless... Sigh. I think my brain might explode. Good job, Fordim. Quote:
Quote:
I prefer the Balrog wings debate... Last edited by the guy who be short; 08-06-2005 at 06:18 AM. |
||||||||
08-06-2005, 12:56 PM | #15 | |
A Shade of Westernesse
Join Date: May 2004
Location: The last wave over Atalantë
Posts: 515
|
Quote:
I also think Tolkien would have made it clear if Gothmog was a Nazgul, a Black Numenorean, etc. Never was Gothmog described in the way of the other Nazgul (striking fear into the heart of his enemies, etc.), and Tolkien went out of his way to describe the dark origins of the Mouth of Sauron, making him seem like something of an anomaly in the Third Age. Withholding Gothmog's race is to me either an indication that Tolkien didn't want us to know, or that he figured the reader would assume the lieutenant was a regular man or orc - the two races which made up the vast majority of Sauron's fighting force. Orc is obviously more likely, because as far as we know there were no living men in Minas Morgul. |
|
08-06-2005, 02:08 PM | #16 | |
Dead Serious
|
Quote:
Gothmog- if a non-Nazgul- stands in about the same relation to the Witchking and Sauron as the first Gothmog did to Sauron and Morgoth: a second lieutanent not entirely associated with the first, and not quite as "prominent" in the tactical command. And if we remember the Translator's Conceit, then it is entirely possible that Gothmog is a name inserted later by Frodo/Pippin/Gondorian transcriber to name the "Lieutenant of Morgul". ~Voted for Nazgul, but not convinced, Formendacil~
__________________
I prefer history, true or feigned.
|
|
08-06-2005, 02:24 PM | #17 |
Alive without breath
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: On A Cold Wind To Valhalla
Posts: 5,912
|
If we look at this logically, and think, "Who would Sauron most likely put second in command to Old Witchie?" And "Who would old Witchie put as his second?" it would have to be someone weaker than the Witch King, but much stronger than anything else in his armies.
A Nazgûl is beginning to look more likely to me now, as it seems that that would be the obvious choice. Something that both Orcs and men would fear more than anything of their own kind. Orcs and men could easily rise up against a captain who was of their own kind, being the jealous type. And Look at how Sauron (and Melkor) ruled the Orcs, "In fear" keep them in line. One of their own kind would not be able to do this effectively. So, in keeping with Sauron's character, A Nazgûl would be the most likely lieutenant to the Witch King.
__________________
I think that if you want facts, then The Downer Newspaper is probably the place to go. I know! I read it once. THE PHANTOM AND ALIEN: The Legend of the Golden Bus Ticket... |
08-07-2005, 01:16 AM | #18 |
Hauntress of the Havens
Join Date: Mar 2003
Location: IN it, but not OF it
Posts: 2,538
|
Are you all kidding? Gothmog is obviously a pink Orcish individual whose eyes show strains of mutation.
|
08-07-2005, 01:39 AM | #19 |
Hauntress of the Havens
Join Date: Mar 2003
Location: IN it, but not OF it
Posts: 2,538
|
Seriously, though, I'm quite undecided whether he is a Black Númenorean or an Orc chieftain. He being a Nazgûl is out of the question - at least for me - since it doesn't seem to make sense for the Witch-King to have another second-in-command other than Khamûl.
Oh, and as Hookbill said, the Orcs serve Sauron in fear, plus they barely show any influence or aura of authority over their fellow bad guys. That leaves me with the second option - that Gothmog is a Black Númenorean who rose to the heights of Sauron's army the way Grima probably did in Rohan. Maybe Mouth and Gothmog were close buddies in Númenor? |
08-07-2005, 01:58 AM | #20 |
Scion of The Faithful
Join Date: Apr 2003
Location: The brink, where hope and despair are akin. [The Philippines]
Posts: 5,312
|
Gothmog the Orc.
Have you seem Grishnákh, Shagrat, and Gorbag lately?
I don't think Sauron would want an Orc being second-in-command of a major stronghold of his.
__________________
フェンリス鴨 (Fenrisu Kamo) The plot, cut, defeated. I intend to copy this sig forever - so far so good...
|
08-07-2005, 05:36 AM | #21 |
Shadowed Prince
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: Thulcandra
Posts: 2,343
|
The Short One adds a Twist
Here's something to consider: Did Tolkien himself actually know what Gothmog was?
Think about it. There is one tiny, fleeting reference to him. It's entirely possible that Tolkien simply made up a name for a lieutenant on the spot (choosing Gothmog for fairly obvious reasons) and didn't give him any history or race. In any case, I resent the lack of a cop-out option, Fordim. "Tolkien didn't care" would have done nicely. |
08-07-2005, 10:55 AM | #22 |
Auspicious Wraith
Join Date: May 2002
Location: The Netherlands
Posts: 4,859
|
In one of those old threads, someone suggests that Gothmog is Tom Bombadil.
There is also reference in those threads to the fact that Tolkien had originally written that all the Nazgul fled the Pelennor after Witchy died. Is that in HoME at all?
__________________
Los Ingobernables de Harlond |
08-08-2005, 11:40 AM | #23 | |
Dead Serious
|
Quote:
~As always, the Devil's Advocate - Formendacil~
__________________
I prefer history, true or feigned.
|
|
08-08-2005, 11:45 AM | #24 | |
Shadowed Prince
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: Thulcandra
Posts: 2,343
|
Quote:
Cursing Formendacil , TGWBS |
|
08-08-2005, 11:57 AM | #25 | |
Dead Serious
|
Quote:
Furthermore, Khamul is definitely said to be the most affected of the Nazgul by sunlight and water. And remember that the sun had just broken through when the Battle of the Pelennor began, so perhaps Khamul was a bit too queasy to take command. And anyway, it might well be that Khamul wasn't as adequate a general as "Gothmog". ~Nazgul's Advocate - Formendacil~
__________________
I prefer history, true or feigned.
|
|
08-08-2005, 12:07 PM | #26 | |
Shadowed Prince
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: Thulcandra
Posts: 2,343
|
The Encyclopedia of Arda claims:
Quote:
Well, that seems concrete to me. I'll just sit and wait for Formendacil to come back and blow gigantic holes in it. |
|
08-08-2005, 12:08 PM | #27 |
Shade of Carn Dûm
Join Date: Jun 2004
Posts: 413
|
I always assumed Khamul was off trying to lay the smackdown on Lorien...
But, I do believe Khamul would have taken over with the death of the Wiki (bless him). In any case, Gothmog is only mentioned at this one point. I am unsure (being at work, and without the books), and so I think he probably died at Pelennor. If this is the case, he is not a Nazgul, as I recall (mistakingly?) that the other eight Nazgul were with Sauron when he fell. Now, Gothmog is seen whipping Easterlings into a frenzy upon the Wiki's death. From what I recall, probably mistakingly, Easterlings have no great love of orcs. So why would they listen to an orc commander? If not a Nazgul, he must be a man, to me. |
08-08-2005, 12:20 PM | #28 | ||
Dead Serious
|
Quote:
Quote:
Fellbeasts. The Nazgul can fly- and do fly. There is no need for all of them to watch over the army on the road. In addition, we know that Sauron had other, singular, uses for them, such as patrolling the Dead Marshes (see the chapter with that name) or investigating mysterious border incidents (right after Frodo and Sam escape the Tower of Cirith Ungol, a Nazgul appears to find out what on earth is going on). Furthermore, this evidence falls apart on the basis of the fact that while the army may only have marched with the Witchking, there were clearly several Nazgul present at the Siege and the Battle.
__________________
I prefer history, true or feigned.
|
||
08-08-2005, 02:43 PM | #29 |
Animated Skeleton
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: minnesota
Posts: 42
|
gothmog...the crazed i-am-the-real-dark-lord evil (and incredibly ugly) HOBBIT!!! sorry sort of a joke please just ignore me
__________________
~Spirit of sunlight...i am free~ |
08-08-2005, 02:55 PM | #30 |
Shadow of the Past
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: Minas Mor-go
Posts: 1,007
|
I've always imagined Gothmog as some sort of man, so I'm voting for Black Numenorean. Pretty much all evidence in favor of this has been said, I think. CaptainofDespair and TGWBS have good points on this. I think the only thing we all can agree on is that he was not an orc.
|
08-09-2005, 03:24 AM | #31 | ||||
Mischievous Candle
|
I haven't voted yet so let's see if I can organize my thoughts while I write and come into some proper conclusion. On the first time I read LotR Gothmog was an orc to me. I didn't really think if it was logical because I like to read the books as a story not an encyclopedia. Besides, I think Gothmog sounds very orcish. At least it doesn't sound like a name of a Ringwraith. However, after doing a little brainwork I don't believe that he was an orc.
Do you know what was a Lieutenant's place in historical battles? Was he at the front marching with the troops or was it possible that he came to the battlefield some other way (here: flying a Fell beast)? I don't know how much we can trust Frodo's observations of just one Nazgul. He fell asleep or passed out while Morgul's host was crossing a bridge. Before it Frodo seemed to be so caught in the fear of failing that I don't know if he had noticed if there had been two Nazguls instead of one. Quote:
But later on almost the same sentence is repeated. Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
__________________
Fenris Wolf
|
||||
08-09-2005, 08:39 AM | #32 | |
Shade of Carn Dûm
|
Quote:
The lieutenant would have worked in a myriad of ways depending on the needs of the day.
__________________
"Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities. " ~Voltaire
|
|
08-09-2005, 09:02 AM | #33 |
Auspicious Wraith
Join Date: May 2002
Location: The Netherlands
Posts: 4,859
|
How did Frodo (or whoever told him about Gothmog) come to know the name of the lieutenant?
__________________
Los Ingobernables de Harlond |
08-09-2005, 09:06 AM | #34 | |
Dead Serious
|
Quote:
RE: Lieutenants A lieutenant refers either to a military deputy or to the lowest rank of commissioned army officer. Since the second is clearly not the case, the "Lieutenant of Morgul" means that Gothmog is the deputy commander of Morgul- the Witchking's right hand man.
__________________
I prefer history, true or feigned.
|
|
08-09-2005, 09:18 AM | #35 |
Auspicious Wraith
Join Date: May 2002
Location: The Netherlands
Posts: 4,859
|
So maybe it is all lies. Or maybe Aragorn was actually quite friendly with one Southron and managed to get his name into the history books as a mighty captain.
__________________
Los Ingobernables de Harlond |
08-09-2005, 09:24 AM | #36 | |
Shade of Carn Dûm
Join Date: Jun 2004
Posts: 413
|
Yes, but there are possibly several Lieutenants of Morgul. Why would there be only one? And, why would a Commander like the Wiki take his best sub-commander? He had no reason to believe he would fall, being empowered by Sauron's magic. So, the Wiki would take one of his lessers, as a back-up. His chief lieutenant of the citadel might be preparing a second wave (as we all should know, orcs lose troops by the thousands at any given time, and thus it would be wise to have a fit commander to come forward after Pelennor to both mop up, and continue the rampant slaughter that would carry into Rohan and Eriador).
I also don't trust Encyclopedia of Arda's claims that Gothmog was the second-in-command of Morgul, as it says something which I believe is a fallacy. TGWBS posted this from Arda: Quote:
|
|
08-09-2005, 09:37 AM | #37 |
Ghost Prince of Cardolan
Join Date: May 2004
Posts: 3,448
|
Excellent point, maybe....Sauron Had his own Fellowship if you will like Captain said mybe there were many lietenents... One Orc one Easterling One harad..(wait are those the same as easterliongs? I forget.)
Gothmog could be the Easterling commander. But then again it Sauron saw Aragorn he might have panicked and sent WitchKing's second in command. More to the point though about the orcs fleeing Didn't they basicly fear their commanders if this were so they would take their first chance and run
__________________
Morsul the Resurrected |
08-09-2005, 09:49 AM | #38 |
Auspicious Wraith
Join Date: May 2002
Location: The Netherlands
Posts: 4,859
|
Gothmog was not the Easterling commander. He was the lieutenant of Morgul.
__________________
Los Ingobernables de Harlond |
08-09-2005, 09:55 AM | #39 | |
Dead Serious
|
"THE" Lieutenant of Morgul... not "A" lieutenant of Morgul. And as for the pertinent quote, from the great book itself, it has already been posted on this thread.
Quote:
__________________
I prefer history, true or feigned.
|
|
08-09-2005, 10:09 AM | #40 | |
Shade of Carn Dûm
Join Date: Jun 2004
Posts: 413
|
Quote:
I've always pondered one thing though... Could Gothmog be a more 'Mannish' reincarnation of the spirit of the original Gothmog, Lord of Balrogs? Yes, I know that sounds silly... Note: I did not find mention of this in this particular thread, so I may have skipped something. If so, disregard the comment. |
|
|
|