Who was most responsible for the death of Smaug? - The Barrow-Downs Discussion Forum

Gimli Son Of Gloin · 05-27-2002, 11:47 AM

Who was most responsible for the death of Smaug? 25% percent said Bilbo was, although I see no reason why, except for rousing him from his slumber. 11% said said Gandalf, who had no connection whatsoever. Now the two which I think most debatable, The Old Thrush and Bard the Bowman. The Old Thrush told Bard the Bowman where to shoot, and without that information Bard would have wasted his last arrow. however Bard was the one who actually shot him. The thing is, without Bard, The Thrush was hopeless, but without the Thrush, Bard was hopeless. I actually that they both were equally important. How about you?

[ May 27, 2002: Message edited by: Gimli Son Of Gloin ]

[ May 27, 2002: Message edited by: Gimli Son Of Gloin ]

Elrian · 05-27-2002, 11:51 AM

Bilbo, since it was from him that the Thrush got the information about the gap in Smaug's chest. If Bilbo and the Dwarves had not gone to Erebor, Smaug would not have been slain.

Daniel Telcontar · 05-27-2002, 11:57 AM

Bard had the black arrow. If he did not have the knowledge of the dragon's weak spot, I think he would have hit anyway with it. If not, then why is it such a special arrow for him? There must be something good about it. If the Old Trush hadn't gotten him the information, or Bilbo, someone else would. But only Bard could have made the shot.

piosenniel · 05-27-2002, 12:00 PM

Doesn't that lead us back to Gandalf? If he had not gotten the dwarves and Bilbo together, and more or less pushed Bilbo out into an adventure, events would not have occurred leading to the death of Smaug.

[ May 27, 2002: Message edited by: piosenniel ]

Daniel Telcontar · 05-27-2002, 12:10 PM

Gandalf has a small role in The Hobbit.
He only occurs when they are in great danger, and frankly, I believe that Tolkien could have gotten them out of their need some other way. It seems that Gandalf's only part in The Hobbit is that he gets Bilbo with the dwarves and then help them now and then, because he is a wizard, which belongs in all good adventures.

Veritas · 05-27-2002, 12:30 PM

I think it was Bard, who actually killed Smaug, Bilbo made him leave the mountain, and the Old Thrush told Bard where to shoot, but he didn't shoot, that was Bard.
So I go for Bard the Bowman! [img]smilies/biggrin.gif[/img] [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img] [img]smilies/cool.gif[/img]

05-27-2002, 12:45 PM

I think it was who ever put that hole in his tummy.
does anybody know if there is a reason it was there or if it was there only to make the story more intresting.
(I think it was a tatoo with the name of a laidy dragon but he had it removed) [img]smilies/tongue.gif[/img]

Gimli Son Of Gloin · 05-27-2002, 02:21 PM

The hole was there because no gems of stuff got imbedded there from lying on them for years. It just was.

Eomer of the Rohirrim · 05-28-2002, 04:21 AM

Barliman Butterbur. Without him Gandalf and Thorin wouldn't have met in Bree and the adventure wouldn't have happened.

Seriously though, it was Bard.

*Varda* · 05-28-2002, 12:08 PM

It's a hard one to answer, to be perfectly honest. It's basically a chain, something leads to something that leads to something else... you get my drift...

So arguably it could be bilbo because he spotted the hole in the first place, but the thrush told bard where to shoot... who fired the arrow...so it could have been bard.

Personally i voted for Bard, mainly because he fired the shot and killed him - he was the one who actually carried it out, which kind of makes him responsible. The others were just helpers. But i guess it's debatable.

Luineglin · 05-28-2002, 01:44 PM

hey it was Illuvatar he started it all man.

Gimli Son Of Gloin · 05-28-2002, 03:02 PM

I think you have the best idea yet, Varda.

Lindolirian · 05-28-2002, 05:19 PM

To tell you the truth.... It was the Black arrow. No doubt about it. Ask any coroner or forensics person or whoever it is who inspects dead bodies. The cause of death was the Black arrow. If not that, the town of Esgaroth may have broken his back as he fell, or perhaps, he drownded; too weak to pull himself up....

Birdland · 05-28-2002, 09:23 PM

You know, I always kind of figured that the "hole" in Smaug's bejeweled armor would have been filled by the Arkenstone. Now how's that for the hand of fate?! Bilbo would have never found the Arkenstone if it hadn't fallen off of Smaug's tummy, and Smaug would not have been killed.

As to the original question, I believe that the Thrush had the greatest hand in Smaug's death, since he was the one who carried word of Bilbo's discovery to Bard. In fact I remember when I first read the Hobbit, that I believed the Thrush to be Gandalf in bird disguise. So that means that the Thrush AND Gandalf lead to the demise of Smaug.

Nar · 05-30-2002, 09:01 AM

Good point, Birdland! The Arkenstone was the heart of the mountain, and the heart of Thorin, and --could be-- the key to Smaug's heart, all in one-- excellent! I never thought of that. I never could decide if the Thrush was an emissary of Gandalf or Radagast the Brown, but it would be cool if he was Gandalf in disguise. On the other hand, it would be good if Radagast actually got to do something useful!

Birdland · 05-30-2002, 10:33 AM

Thanks Nar! I appreciate your good opinion. Unfortunately, as far as the Gandalf/Thrush theory goes, I've let that go. I was younger when I read the Hobbit, and was probably influenced by Beorn's shape shifting ability. So I assumed that Gandalf had "shape shifted" into the Thrush to aide Bilbo. I think, also, that there was something in the book where Tolkien describes the look of the Thrush's eye, and it was similar to his description of Gandlalf's look.

Of course, now we know that Gandalf had other business to attend to (The White Council, I think), so he couldn't have been the bird.

But, on the third hand, Tolkien did edit later editions of The Hobbit so it would jive with the later events of LoTR. Could the Thrush/Gandalf thing have been something he let go so he could place Gandalf at Isengard?

Anybody got info out there that would prove or disprove my theory?

Nazgûl Queen · 05-31-2002, 03:22 AM

I voted for Bilbo, because without him the information would never have been uncovered... but really all of them played equal parts and not one would have been able to accomplish it alone.

Telchar · 05-31-2002, 07:05 AM

I Voted Gandalf for this reason:

From Unfinished Tales, The Quest of Erebor

Quote:

“You may think that Rivendell was out of his reach, but I did not think so. The state of things in the North was very bad. The Kingdom under the Mountain and the strong Men of Dale were no more. To resist any force that Sauron might send to regain the northern passes in the mountains and the old lands of Angmar there were only the Dwarves of the Iron Hills, and behind them lay a desolation and a Dragon. The Dragon Sauron might use with terrible effect. Often I said to myself: “I must find some means of dealing with Smaug. But a direct stroke against Dol Guldur is needed still more. We must disturb Sauron’s plans. I must make the Council see that.’

I think that few notices the role Gandalf played in The Hobbit, and what he had to do 'besides' stirring to pot enough to make the dwarves and Bilbo attempt the Quest.

Cheers T

Thinhyandoiel · 05-31-2002, 03:27 PM

I agree that it was a chain. Without the Thrush or Bilbo, Bard wouldn't have known where to shoot, but without Bard, the info would've been useless because there would be no black arrow. But as it was Bard that shot Smaug, and if we look only at that, I'd say he was the most responsible as he was the one who actually killed him. All your points are valid though, and got me in a tizzy of confusing thoughts. [img]smilies/tongue.gif[/img]

StarJewel · 07-18-2003, 11:14 PM

I'm one of those people who favors the direct approach, so i think Bard, who actually shot ol' Smaug, is most responsible

Lyra Greenleaf · 07-19-2003, 06:12 AM

Have you ever heard the riddle about the man in the desert with two enemies? One filled his water bottle with poison, the other shot a hole in his water bottle so he had nothing to drink. The man died- so who killed him? (I say the second guy)

So anyway, I would say Bard. If Smaug was an honest member of the community Bard would be up for murder and the thrush and Bilbo would be accessories. Gandalf would probably get off.

[ July 19, 2003: Message edited by: Lyra Greenleaf ]

doug*platypus · 07-19-2003, 06:53 AM

Gandalf.

Of course, if Smaug's little brother (Borg??) came looking for the dragon slayer, Gandalf could quite easily point a gnarled finger in Bard's general direction. And if it were a crime to kill a dragon (like if they were endangered or something), then Bard would probably be the only one arrested. Weird.

05-27-2002, 11:47 AM	#1
Gimli Son Of Gloin Shade of Carn Dûm Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: The Halls of Montezuma, and the Shores of Tripoli Posts: 495	Who was most responsible for the death of Smaug? Who was most responsible for the death of Smaug? 25% percent said Bilbo was, although I see no reason why, except for rousing him from his slumber. 11% said said Gandalf, who had no connection whatsoever. Now the two which I think most debatable, The Old Thrush and Bard the Bowman. The Old Thrush told Bard the Bowman where to shoot, and without that information Bard would have wasted his last arrow. however Bard was the one who actually shot him. The thing is, without Bard, The Thrush was hopeless, but without the Thrush, Bard was hopeless. I actually that they both were equally important. How about you? [ May 27, 2002: Message edited by: Gimli Son Of Gloin ] [ May 27, 2002: Message edited by: Gimli Son Of Gloin ] __________________ The Few, the Proud, the Marines.

05-27-2002, 11:51 AM	#2
Elrian Eldar Spirit of Truth Join Date: Oct 2001 Location: Land of the FREE, Home of the BRAVE Posts: 794	Bilbo, since it was from him that the Thrush got the information about the gap in Smaug's chest. If Bilbo and the Dwarves had not gone to Erebor, Smaug would not have been slain. __________________ ~Call me a relic, call me what you will. Say I'm old fashioned , say I'm over the hill. That old whine ain't got no soul. I'll stick to Old Toby and a Hobbit hole.~

05-27-2002, 11:57 AM	#3
Daniel Telcontar Ghost Prince of Cardolan Join Date: May 2002 Location: Denmark Posts: 713	Bard had the black arrow. If he did not have the knowledge of the dragon's weak spot, I think he would have hit anyway with it. If not, then why is it such a special arrow for him? There must be something good about it. If the Old Trush hadn't gotten him the information, or Bilbo, someone else would. But only Bard could have made the shot. __________________ Two beer or not two beer, that is the question; by Shakesbeer

05-27-2002, 12:00 PM	#4
piosenniel Desultory Dwimmerlaik Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: Pickin' flowers with Bill the Cat..... Posts: 7,779	Doesn't that lead us back to Gandalf? If he had not gotten the dwarves and Bilbo together, and more or less pushed Bilbo out into an adventure, events would not have occurred leading to the death of Smaug. [ May 27, 2002: Message edited by: piosenniel ] __________________ Eldest, that’s what I am . . . I knew the dark under the stars when it was fearless - before the Dark Lord came from Outside.

05-27-2002, 12:10 PM	#5
Daniel Telcontar Ghost Prince of Cardolan Join Date: May 2002 Location: Denmark Posts: 713	Gandalf has a small role in The Hobbit. He only occurs when they are in great danger, and frankly, I believe that Tolkien could have gotten them out of their need some other way. It seems that Gandalf's only part in The Hobbit is that he gets Bilbo with the dwarves and then help them now and then, because he is a wizard, which belongs in all good adventures. __________________ Two beer or not two beer, that is the question; by Shakesbeer

05-27-2002, 12:30 PM	#6
Veritas Wight Join Date: May 2002 Location: The Netherlands Posts: 131	I think it was Bard, who actually killed Smaug, Bilbo made him leave the mountain, and the Old Thrush told Bard where to shoot, but he didn't shoot, that was Bard. So I go for Bard the Bowman! [img]smilies/biggrin.gif[/img] [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img] [img]smilies/cool.gif[/img] __________________ With the birds I'll share this lonely view. ~Red Hot Chili Peppers, Scar Tisue~ Laurëfin

05-27-2002, 12:45 PM	#7
Melkor Guest Posts: n/a	I think it was who ever put that hole in his tummy. does anybody know if there is a reason it was there or if it was there only to make the story more intresting. (I think it was a tatoo with the name of a laidy dragon but he had it removed) [img]smilies/tongue.gif[/img]

05-27-2002, 02:21 PM	#8
Gimli Son Of Gloin Shade of Carn Dûm Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: The Halls of Montezuma, and the Shores of Tripoli Posts: 495	The hole was there because no gems of stuff got imbedded there from lying on them for years. It just was. __________________ The Few, the Proud, the Marines.

05-28-2002, 04:21 AM	#9
Eomer of the Rohirrim Auspicious Wraith Join Date: May 2002 Location: The Netherlands Posts: 4,859	Barliman Butterbur. Without him Gandalf and Thorin wouldn't have met in Bree and the adventure wouldn't have happened. Seriously though, it was Bard. __________________ Los Ingobernables de Harlond

05-28-2002, 12:08 PM	#10
Varda Maiden of Tears Join Date: May 2002 Location: Valinor. Posts: 571	It's a hard one to answer, to be perfectly honest. It's basically a chain, something leads to something that leads to something else... you get my drift... So arguably it could be bilbo because he spotted the hole in the first place, but the thrush told bard where to shoot... who fired the arrow...so it could have been bard. Personally i voted for Bard, mainly because he fired the shot and killed him - he was the one who actually carried it out, which kind of makes him responsible. The others were just helpers. But i guess it's debatable. __________________ 'It must often be so, Sam, when things are in danger: someone has to give them up, lose them, so that others may keep them' ~Frodo "Life is hard. After all, it kills you." - Katharine Hepburn

05-28-2002, 01:44 PM	#11
Luineglin Haunting Spirit Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: In a terrible paradise Posts: 93	hey it was Illuvatar he started it all man. __________________ All that is gold does not glitter, Not all that wander are lost; The old that is strong does not wither, Deep roots are not reached by the frost. From the ashes a fire shall be woken, A light from the shadows shall spring; Renewed shall be blade that was broken, The crownless again shall be king. Bilbo Baggins Describing Aragorn Son of Arathorn Heir of Elendil,Elessar-Elfstone of his people

05-28-2002, 03:02 PM	#12
Gimli Son Of Gloin Shade of Carn Dûm Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: The Halls of Montezuma, and the Shores of Tripoli Posts: 495	I think you have the best idea yet, Varda. __________________ The Few, the Proud, the Marines.

05-28-2002, 05:19 PM	#13
Lindolirian World's Tallest Hobbit Join Date: Nov 2001 Location: Where the view is long Posts: 2,117	To tell you the truth.... It was the Black arrow. No doubt about it. Ask any coroner or forensics person or whoever it is who inspects dead bodies. The cause of death was the Black arrow. If not that, the town of Esgaroth may have broken his back as he fell, or perhaps, he drownded; too weak to pull himself up.... __________________ 'They say that the One will himself enter into Arda, and heal Men and all the Marring from the beginning to the end."

05-28-2002, 09:23 PM	#14
Birdland Ghastly Neekerbreeker Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: the banks of the mighty Scioto Posts: 1,751	You know, I always kind of figured that the "hole" in Smaug's bejeweled armor would have been filled by the Arkenstone. Now how's that for the hand of fate?! Bilbo would have never found the Arkenstone if it hadn't fallen off of Smaug's tummy, and Smaug would not have been killed. As to the original question, I believe that the Thrush had the greatest hand in Smaug's death, since he was the one who carried word of Bilbo's discovery to Bard. In fact I remember when I first read the Hobbit, that I believed the Thrush to be Gandalf in bird disguise. So that means that the Thrush AND Gandalf lead to the demise of Smaug.

05-30-2002, 09:01 AM	#15
Nar Wight Join Date: Apr 2002 Posts: 228	Good point, Birdland! The Arkenstone was the heart of the mountain, and the heart of Thorin, and --could be-- the key to Smaug's heart, all in one-- excellent! I never thought of that. I never could decide if the Thrush was an emissary of Gandalf or Radagast the Brown, but it would be cool if he was Gandalf in disguise. On the other hand, it would be good if Radagast actually got to do something useful!

05-30-2002, 10:33 AM	#16
Birdland Ghastly Neekerbreeker Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: the banks of the mighty Scioto Posts: 1,751	Thanks Nar! I appreciate your good opinion. Unfortunately, as far as the Gandalf/Thrush theory goes, I've let that go. I was younger when I read the Hobbit, and was probably influenced by Beorn's shape shifting ability. So I assumed that Gandalf had "shape shifted" into the Thrush to aide Bilbo. I think, also, that there was something in the book where Tolkien describes the look of the Thrush's eye, and it was similar to his description of Gandlalf's look. Of course, now we know that Gandalf had other business to attend to (The White Council, I think), so he couldn't have been the bird. But, on the third hand, Tolkien did edit later editions of The Hobbit so it would jive with the later events of LoTR. Could the Thrush/Gandalf thing have been something he let go so he could place Gandalf at Isengard? Anybody got info out there that would prove or disprove my theory?

05-31-2002, 03:22 AM	#17
Nazgûl Queen Haunting Spirit Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: Minas Morgul Posts: 75	I voted for Bilbo, because without him the information would never have been uncovered... but really all of them played equal parts and not one would have been able to accomplish it alone. __________________ - The Nazgûl they were; the Ringwraiths, the Enemy's most terribly servants; darkness went with them and they cried with the voices of death -

05-31-2002, 03:27 PM	#19
Thinhyandoiel Wight Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: Canada Posts: 187	I agree that it was a chain. Without the Thrush or Bilbo, Bard wouldn't have known where to shoot, but without Bard, the info would've been useless because there would be no black arrow. But as it was Bard that shot Smaug, and if we look only at that, I'd say he was the most responsible as he was the one who actually killed him. All your points are valid though, and got me in a tizzy of confusing thoughts. [img]smilies/tongue.gif[/img] __________________ In gwidh ristennen, i fae narchannen I lach Anor ed ardhon gwannen Caled veleg, ethuiannen

07-18-2003, 11:14 PM	#20
StarJewel Wight Join Date: Jun 2003 Location: I'm in my dear Maedhros' arms, dreaming the day away. Oh, who am I kidding, Chicago is nothing like that! Posts: 116	I'm one of those people who favors the direct approach, so i think Bard, who actually shot ol' Smaug, is most responsible __________________ Visit my writing site...if you dare http://www.fanfiction.net/~mirielamarian

07-19-2003, 06:12 AM	#21
Lyra Greenleaf The Diaphanous Dryad Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: R toL: 531, past the wild path Posts: 1,152	Have you ever heard the riddle about the man in the desert with two enemies? One filled his water bottle with poison, the other shot a hole in his water bottle so he had nothing to drink. The man died- so who killed him? (I say the second guy) So anyway, I would say Bard. If Smaug was an honest member of the community Bard would be up for murder and the thrush and Bilbo would be accessories. Gandalf would probably get off. [ July 19, 2003: Message edited by: Lyra Greenleaf ] __________________ “Sylphs of the forest,” I whispered. “Spirits of oak, beech and ash. Dryads of Rowan and hazel, hear us. You who have guided and guarded our every footstep, you who have sheltered our growth, we honour you." the Forbidden Link

07-19-2003, 06:53 AM	#22
doug*platypus Delver in the Deep Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: Aotearoa Posts: 960	Gandalf. Of course, if Smaug's little brother (Borg??) came looking for the dragon slayer, Gandalf could quite easily point a gnarled finger in Bard's general direction. And if it were a crime to kill a dragon (like if they were endangered or something), then Bard would probably be the only one arrested. Weird. __________________ But Gwindor answered: 'The doom lies in yourself, not in your name'.