Ainur marriages and what comes after - The Barrow-Downs Discussion Forum

Dûrbelethwen · 06-16-2005, 12:22 PM

I know most of the Valar were married and Professor Tolkien mentions at least one Maiar couple. I also read in another thread that originally the Maiar were supposed to be the descendants of the Valar. Since that idea was later changed does anyone know if there were any children resultant from Ainur marriages (with the exception of Melian). Thank you.
Sorry if this subject has already been brought up but I could not find anything like it when searching

Anguirel · 06-16-2005, 12:26 PM

Luthien is the only example of Ainur offspring we can now accept as canonical.

However, in earlier concepts Eonwe was Manwe and Varda's son, and Gothmog was Morgoth's son (Eru knows how...). I believe Arien may also have been someone's daughter at one point.

Thinlómien · 06-20-2005, 05:53 AM

This is close to another question I was wondering while reading Sil. Why did valar marry at all? They were like sisters and brothers (without gender) and then they married... Strange.

Mithalwen · 06-20-2005, 06:19 AM

I think they were spiritual pairings of kindred spirits with the male and female aspects providing balance. This may be why Tolkien refers to them as "spouses" rather than "married" ?

Anguirel · 06-20-2005, 06:58 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mithalwen

I think they were spiritual pairings of kindred spirits with the male and female aspects providing balance.

Kindred spirits? What about Aule and Yavanna? But I think your balance theory hits the nail on the head...

Mithalwen · 06-20-2005, 11:55 AM

Well since I was posting from work I didn't have the books ...

However remember that certain of the valar were regarded as siblings because they were coeval in the though of Eru? I think the spouses were the vala who were complementary . Aule and Yavanna are both creative it is just Aule is creative wiht minerals and Yavanna with plants so their needs conflict at times..

Also at the Maiar level of Uinen reining in Osse.

As for Melian - she had to take in a physical body to marry thingol and produce Luthien. Otherwise the forms of the Valar were less tangible if I understood correctly... a kind of clothing in order that they might be perceived by the children of Iluvatar... can't help thinking of them as holograms!!! Since the Istari also had to take on "proper" bodies, I guess they would be theoretically capable of begetting children - but then since they got stuck with the bodies of ancient beardie weirdies and in temperament were grumpy, creepy, and "I talk to the trees" odd.... I think it is very much an academic question

Anguirel · 06-20-2005, 12:00 PM

Ah, but we don't know about the Blue Wizards! Brilliant fashion sense, flowing raven locks, Eastern promise...hmmm...maybe we've discovered the origins of the mysterious and dreaded Herumor!

Luthien_ Tinuviel · 06-25-2005, 10:53 PM

Or maybe we've figured out what Variags are.

06-16-2005, 12:22 PM	#1
Dûrbelethwen Haunting Spirit Join Date: Jul 2004 Posts: 80	Ainur marriages and what comes after I know most of the Valar were married and Professor Tolkien mentions at least one Maiar couple. I also read in another thread that originally the Maiar were supposed to be the descendants of the Valar. Since that idea was later changed does anyone know if there were any children resultant from Ainur marriages (with the exception of Melian). Thank you. Sorry if this subject has already been brought up but I could not find anything like it when searching

06-16-2005, 12:26 PM	#2
Anguirel Byronic Brand Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: The 1590s Posts: 2,778	Luthien is the only example of Ainur offspring we can now accept as canonical. However, in earlier concepts Eonwe was Manwe and Varda's son, and Gothmog was Morgoth's son (Eru knows how...). I believe Arien may also have been someone's daughter at one point. __________________ Among the friendly dead, being bad at games did not seem to matter -Il Lupo Fenriso

06-20-2005, 05:53 AM	#3
Thinlómien Shady She-Penguin Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: In a far land beyond the Sea Posts: 8,093	This is close to another question I was wondering while reading Sil. Why did valar marry at all? They were like sisters and brothers (without gender) and then they married... Strange. __________________ Like the stars chase the sun, over the glowing hill I will conquer Blood is running deep, some things never sleep Double Fenris

06-20-2005, 06:19 AM	#4
Mithalwen Pilgrim Soul Join Date: May 2004 Location: watching the wonga-wonga birds circle... Posts: 9,458	I think they were spiritual pairings of kindred spirits with the male and female aspects providing balance. This may be why Tolkien refers to them as "spouses" rather than "married" ? __________________ “But Finrod walks with Finarfin his father beneath the trees in Eldamar.” Christopher Tolkien, Requiescat in pace

06-20-2005, 11:55 AM	#6
Mithalwen Pilgrim Soul Join Date: May 2004 Location: watching the wonga-wonga birds circle... Posts: 9,458	Well since I was posting from work I didn't have the books ... However remember that certain of the valar were regarded as siblings because they were coeval in the though of Eru? I think the spouses were the vala who were complementary . Aule and Yavanna are both creative it is just Aule is creative wiht minerals and Yavanna with plants so their needs conflict at times.. Also at the Maiar level of Uinen reining in Osse. As for Melian - she had to take in a physical body to marry thingol and produce Luthien. Otherwise the forms of the Valar were less tangible if I understood correctly... a kind of clothing in order that they might be perceived by the children of Iluvatar... can't help thinking of them as holograms!!! Since the Istari also had to take on "proper" bodies, I guess they would be theoretically capable of begetting children - but then since they got stuck with the bodies of ancient beardie weirdies and in temperament were grumpy, creepy, and "I talk to the trees" odd.... I think it is very much an academic question __________________ “But Finrod walks with Finarfin his father beneath the trees in Eldamar.” Christopher Tolkien, Requiescat in pace

06-20-2005, 12:00 PM	#7
Anguirel Byronic Brand Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: The 1590s Posts: 2,778	Ah, but we don't know about the Blue Wizards! Brilliant fashion sense, flowing raven locks, Eastern promise...hmmm...maybe we've discovered the origins of the mysterious and dreaded Herumor! __________________ Among the friendly dead, being bad at games did not seem to matter -Il Lupo Fenriso

06-25-2005, 10:53 PM	#8
Luthien_ Tinuviel Ghost Prince of Cardolan Join Date: May 2002 Location: A very lovely tree-hut in the Chunnel. Posts: 804	Or maybe we've figured out what Variags are. __________________ I am a nineteen-year-old nomad photographer who owns a lemonade stand. You know what? I love Mip.