The scoop on eagles

ok,,,i got some of questions concerning eagles
1. how did Thorondor die?
2. is Gwaihir Thorondor's son?
3. Are the eagles in the third age still under Manwe's command?
4. i've read somewhere that most of the eagles were'nt very nice,,,who were these eagles?

basically,,,anything you know bout eagles let me know.

Po-ta-toes

[*Varda*]

How did Thorondor die?

Thorondor's fate is equally uncertain. The only clue is a passage that appears in The Lord of the Rings, referring to '...old Thorondor, who built his eyries in the inaccessible peaks of the Encircling Mountains when Middle-earth was young.' It's plain from this that Thorondor departed Middle-earth some time after the end of the First Age. Perhaps the greatest Eagle of them all simply died of old age, but his mighty body carried a spirit sent by Eru, so perhaps, just possibly, he flew back to his master's halls on Taniquetil and still soars in the airs of the Undying Lands.

I got that from Encylopedia of Arda

I don't think Gwaihir was Thorondor's son, but he was descended from him.

I believe Manwe still had control of the eagles at the end of the Third Age, I see no reason why he shouldn't. I think he sent them to get Frodo and Sam from Mt. Doom at the end of RotK, but I have no evidence at the moment.

As for eagles that weren't nice, I doubt this too. More that they were above the affairs of Middle Earth, and tended not to get involved unless it was truly necessary. Perhaps that gave this impression.

[ August 18, 2002: Message edited by: *Varda* ]

[lathspell]

I do not know if this information is correct, for I haven't got it from a reliable source.
But, I heard the Eagles were maiar under the control of Manwë, so that would mean that Thorondor didn't die.

Can anyone acknowledge, or not, this info?

greetings,
lathspell

[Morgoth Bauglir]

Well, i do beleive some were maia.

Reason being is, when Numenore was ready to invade valinor, great clouds shaped like eagles came and carried lightning bolts. But, it later goes onto say that there were tons and tons of eagles in the sky with mail on and everything, but i think these were normal eagles as opposed to the lightning carrying eagles that were maiar.

[ August 19, 2002: Message edited by: Morgoth Bauglir ]

[Gothmog]

This is a really old thread, but I have a question related to this topic but it's not important enough to start a new thread. So I'll just add this question to the ones above:

Why didn't the eagles drop the ring in... No, kidding. I'm not going to bring that one up... No, my question is this: in the 8th day after the fellowship left Lothlorien, Aragorn spots something in the sky and thinks it's an eagle. Legolas confirms that it is an eagle, a giant hunting-eagle. This makes them both worried and the following night they get attacked by orcs and for the first time the winged nazguls appear. What is the eagle doing there, far from it's normal habitat in the misty mountains? And is it more than a coincidence that the Nazgul appear the following night? The eagles are supposed to be almost neutral. Almost neutral as in not helping the good side too much but definitely not helping the dark side. Not interfering at all if possible. Is it possible that this eagle wasn't "neutral" and came to warn the fellowship? Or could it be an evil eagle?

Eagles are a symbol of Manwe and the good forces, so an eagle serving Sauron is quite unthinkable. But we now that he had other animals under control. Gandalf says something about many creatures serves him, both bird and beast. Is it possible to control noble beings like the eagles?

Unfortunately I don't have a copy of the books in English here right now so I can't provide any quotes. Quotes in swedish wouldn't help much I'm afraid...

[Thinlómien]

I don't think the eagles were maiar. (I have nothing to prove that, so maybe I shouldn't be saying that.) Or maybe Thorondor was, and so those who descended from him had a bit of maia-blood in their veins. Or probably not, because when speaking about the mightiest of maiar, Thorondor is never mentioned. So probably he is not a maia.

Gurthang, you have a good question. I don't think that the eagle was spying for Sauron; eagles are clearly portrayed to be against him. I don't either think that the eagle was to warn the fellowship; how would just flying over them warn them? (Well, Legolas and Aragorn got worried but...)
It just came to my mind that Gandalf mentions the eagle and says it was Gwaihir.

[luthien-elvenprincess]

Question by Gothmog:

What is the eagle doing there, far from it's normal habitat in the misty mountains?

Legolas spotted that same eagle just as he, Gimli and Aragorn were about to enter Rohan as they searched for Merry and Pippen. Later, when they met Gandalf again, Gandalf revealed that the eagle was Gwaihir the Windlord and that he had sent Gwaihir to watch the River.

[Himilsillion]

What are the things that the Nazgul fly? I have looked in the text the only thing that I have found that refers to their name is Flying steed. They are not dragons because they would be pretty much extinct by the time of the War of the Ring. Are these "flying steeds" eagles in the service of Sauron?

[The 1,000 Reader]

We just call the so-called Nazgul birds "Fell Beasts." I hope this clears things up.

[Voralphion]

Or probably not, because when speaking about the mightiest of maiar, Thorondor is never mentioned. So probably he is not a maia.

Just because he is not mentioned as a maia, does not rule out that he was one as only a few maia were ever mentioned by name. In the Valaquenta when discussing the creation of dwarves, it describes Yavanna going to Eru for something to protect the kelvar, and the ents were the result. I think it also mentions spirits being also sent to protect or watch over the olvar, ( I have lost my copy of the Sil and so cannot provide a direct quote), it is possible that these were the eagles, at least some of them.

[Thinlómien]

Originally Posted by Voralphion

Just because he is not mentioned as a maia, does not rule out that he was one as only a few maia were ever mentioned by name. In the Valaquenta when discussing the creation of dwarves, it describes Yavanna going to Eru for something to protect the kelvar, and the ents were the result. I think it also mentions spirits being also sent to protect or watch over the olvar, ( I have lost my copy of the Sil and so cannot provide a direct quote), it is possible that these were the eagles, at least some of them.

1) I think Yavanna asks for someone to protect the kelvar, because the olvar can fight back and run away, but the kelvar can't.
2) And even if she had asked, that doesn't make the eagles maiar. The ents aren't maiar either.

[Voralphion]

1) I think Yavanna asks for someone to protect the kelvar, because the olvar can fight back and run away, but the kelvar can't

It does but spirits were sent into both

When the Children awake, then the thought of Yavanna will awake also, and it will summon spirits from afar, and they will go among the kelvar and olvar, and some will dwell within and be held in reverence, and their just anger will be feared.

The spirits dwelling in the kelvar becamr the ents, while some of those dwelling in the olvar were the eagles,

... and before the Children awake there shall go forth with wings like the wind the Eagles of the Lord of the West

.

2) And even if she had asked, that doesn't make the eagles maiar. The ents aren't maiar either

I never meant to imply that the eagles were maiar, I don't believe that they are, but was simply trying to correct the assertion that they can't be maia soley because their names aren't mentioned among the few maia that are named.

[Roa_Aoife]

Now, I don't have the Sil on hand, but I'm fairly certain that Ungoliath is mentioned as a Maia that turned to darkness, and then became the mother of all spiders. (Nasty creatures *shudder*) Obviously, spiders are not Maiar, and I don't think Shelob was one, either. It stands to reason that Thorondir was a Maia and fathered the eagles, who were not themselves Maiar, and the same way that Ungoliath mothered spiders.

[Fallenstar]

If the Eagles are not maiar, they are some sort of spirits, perhaps like Ents.

Here is the quote from Quenta Simarillion Chapter one: Of the Beginning of the Days

Spirits in shape of hawks and eagles flew ever to and from his[Manwe's] halls

[Aiwendil]

Roa_aoife wrote:

Now, I don't have the Sil on hand, but I'm fairly certain that Ungoliath is mentioned as a Maia that turned to darkness, and then became the mother of all spiders.

I don't believe it's explicitly stated that Ungoliant was a Maia - though that's a commonly held opinion, and a perfectly tenable one. In any case, your point stands - it certainly is possible for Maiar to have children that are not Maiar. Look at Melian.

[Tuor of Gondolin]

About question number 4 in the beginning post:

4. i've read somewhere that most of the eagles were'nt very nice,,,who were these eagles?

The allusion may be to a passage in The Hobbit
in Chapter VI:

Eagles are not kindly birds. Some are cowardly and cruel. But the ancient race of the northern mountains were the greatest of all birds;they were proud and strong and noble-hearted.

[Lalwendë]

Originally Posted by Aiwendil

I don't believe it's explicitly stated that Ungoliant was a Maia - though that's a commonly held opinion, and a perfectly tenable one. In any case, your point stands - it certainly is possible for Maiar to have children that are not Maiar. Look at Melian.

I wonder whether it would be possible for a Maia to produce more Maiar? Originally Tolkien had the Valar much as real people, able to have offspring but this seems to have changed and the Valar were chaste. Obviously in the case of some of the Maiar, such as Melian, there was the possibility of taking on Elven form and therefore being able to reproduce, but it seems that any offspring are only 'descendants' of the Maia.

If anyone can think of any Maiar that did produce other Maiar then I'd be interested to see who they are, as it seems that only those on the side of 'darkness' produce more Maiar - and even then, did Sauron ever produce any? He possibly created/bred a lot of Orcs and Fell Beasts, and he managed to corrupt by use of the Rings, but did he create any Maiar?

EDIT - In fact, looking at it, there was a 'set' number of Ainur at the moment of creation anyway, as not even Morgoth could create Maiar (was thinking of Balrogs initially). So in this case, the Eagles could only ever be descendants of Maiar, which would nonetheless make them incredibly noble.