Be LotR be an allegory fer fightin' Communism?

Th' big problem I be havin' wi' th' Lord o' th' Rings trilogy be 'tis obviously capitalist propaganda. I be serious here, dasn't jus' discount this on accoun' o' ye like th' books. At least read what I be havin' t' say before ye start shoutin' this down.

Middle Earth represents th' world, nay that 'tis an incredible leap t' that conclusion. Th' humans, elves, an' dwarves represent th' first world nations. Th' goblinoid races be th' second world. Th' others, such as th' Halflings, Haradrim, Easterlings, an' so on be th' third-world nations.

Th' Race o' Man (human crewmaties) represents th' United States o' America, th' British Empire, th' Spanish, an' th' French. Th' most plentiful species o' Middle Earth, tho far too concerned wi' power an' acquisition. In other words, imperialism.

Th' Race o' Elves be Germany. Read between th' lines; they be havin' Master Race written all o'er them. Fair, artistic, yet warriors, an' so on. Swabbieally, I think they be more romanticised t' how Aryans be depicted, rather than how they actually be.

Th' Race o' Dwarves... I dasn't think I need t' say who they be. We all know. Great craftsmen, wealth-oriented, warriors, short an' stocky, bit o' a grudge between them an' th' elves, etc etc. Tolkien pretty clearly wasn`t a fan o' them either, hence how he depicted them.

Th' Halflings be a hard call, but I suspect they's th' protectorate o' Puerto Rico. Sort o' a squadron bounced aft an' fore a bit, but otherwise completely disregarded. More than likely, tho, they be wholly fictional, a representation o' a capitalist paradise.

Mordor be obviously th' Soviet Union. A giant, dark nation lyin' t' th' East, filled wi' ghoulish swabbies who think only o' they's self. I be nay knockin' Eastern Europe, 'tis jus' that in Tolkien`s time they used t' really, really dehumanize the'r enemies. Propaganda cartoons, particularly American ones, depicted enemy soldiers as ape-men. I forget th' exact term, but 't be somethin' like "Gorillafication" that be used by later historians t' describe this. Ye can find a couple examples o' this at:

http://www.learntoquestion.com/resou...jump.cgi?ID=82
http://www.learntoquestion.com/resou...ump.cgi?ID=541


Th' Urik-Kai represent th' goal o' th' Soviet Union, th' way Communists wanted t' be. Manufactured, physically superior, an' while intelligent they be devoid "distractions" like art an' culture. Unlike th' normal soldiers, they be unhindered by light (symbolic o' humanity, warmth, take yer pick).

So then, what be Th' One Rin'? Th' One Rin' be economic dominance. Think about 't: a gold rin' that gives its wearer whaterethey desire most. Pivotal t' th' dominance o' Middle Earth. Whomereholds 'tis corrupted by its evil.

Th' story follows th' ideal capitalists carryin' economic dominance. Now that 't has come into play, they must ensure that th' Soviets nerecapture 't. This calls fer them t' destroy 't by returnin' 't t' 'ere 't came: th' free market. Upon accomplishin' this, they destroy th' core strength o' th' Soviet Union, an' by doomin' them t' economic isolation they eventually collapse.

O' course, in order t' write th' book, J.R.R. Tolkien would need foreknowledge o' future events. Either that or he be jus' very good at predictin' things, or more likely... he`s John Titor. John Titor, famous time traveler sent from th' future t' retrieve a computer model only available in th' 70`s. Rather than simply changin' th' clock settings on th' computer or settin' up a new OS, th' military sends th' lad's aft in time. This be consistant wi' th' wasteful nature o' militaries everywhere. Why John titor would set sail aft an' time t' write anti-communist fantasy work be beyond me, but perhaps he needed a steam press from that era an' had some time t' kill.

In conclusion, John Titor be clearly a time-travelin' anti-Semite who hated Communism. Ya scurvy dog!

[Formendacil]

It seems obvious from you hilarious conclusion and frothy mode of speech that you don't intend to present your conjecture as serious, but I think you've posted in the wrong Forum. The one you want would be Middle-Earth Mirth, which this would appear to be.

If, on the other hand, you actually DO intend this as a serious post, then I suggest battening down the hatches, loading the cannons, and preparing to be bombarded in a canonical blitz that would make the Battle for Britain look like a driving range.

I find 't a tad judgemental t' assume th' nature o' this based on th' language 'tis written in. Th' real question t'ain't if 'tis serious, but whether or nay any o' 't has merit.

[Lindolirian]

Welcome to the Downs, our most swashbuckling specter! In reply to your original question, I think Tolkien can answer it for himself:

I cordially dislike allegory in all its manifestations, and always have done since I grew old and wary enough to detect its presence.

So the Prof didn't write LotR to symbolize or be and allegory for anything, but you still have the freedom to see it how you like. Many others seem to have had close to the same ideas as you. See here.
I do have to agree with Formendacil on his point: You're writing voice is rather "piratey", and I don't know if that's how you really talk, but I do know that I don't write how I talk. Anyway, I think it'd be tedious to add in all those apostophes everywhere. O well, whatever suits you best!

[Formendacil]

Originally Posted by Squidy the Navigator

I find 't a tad judgemental t' assume th' nature o' this based on th' language 'tis written in. Th' real question t'ain't if 'tis serious, but whether or nay any o' 't has merit.

Twas no a judgement based on yer grammer 'nd such (or the lack thereo'). Twas based on the preposterous s'ggistion put ferth.

On a more serious note, I could take you as a literate (but misguided) pirate-like fan of Tolkien, until I reached the end of your message:

Originally Posted by Squidy the Navigator

O' course, in order t' write th' book, J.R.R. Tolkien would need foreknowledge o' future events. Either that or he be jus' very good at predictin' things, or more likely... he`s John Titor. John Titor, famous time traveler sent from th' future t' retrieve a computer model only available in th' 70`s. Rather than simply changin' th' clock settings on th' computer or settin' up a new OS, th' military sends th' lad's aft in time. This be consistant wi' th' wasteful nature o' militaries everywhere. Why John titor would set sail aft an' time t' write anti-communist fantasy work be beyond me, but perhaps he needed a steam press from that era an' had some time t' kill.

In conclusion, John Titor be clearly a time-travelin' anti-Semite who hated Communism. Ya scurvy dog!

I find it inconsistent that someone who spends so much time writing in a pirate-like tongue while remaining completely understandable would put forth a proposition such as this.

There are many people out there who come online and ask the forums if Tolkien was writing an allegory "did such and such mean something?" to be patiently directed to Tolkien's foreword. I imagine that there are even people who have come online raging that Tolkien was an anti-Semite, only be be (very patiently) directed to a letter of Tolkien's to the German (Nazi) Government in response to a request concerning his origins, in which he states that he has no known Jewish ancestry, a fact that he rather regrets.

But I don't believe that anyone has yet suggested that Tolkien was a time-traveller in the employ of some modern/futuristic military. So my apologies if it seems incredulous that I have a hard time swallowing it.

[Keeper of Dol Guldur]

Obviously I'm well aware of Tolkien's true feelings, and that he just wanted to write a good story.

But yeah, everyone certainly notices the similarities and parallels between Middle Earth and Europe (which happens to be on earth, between Asia and America).

But then, while Tolkien refined and really characterized a lot of fantastic races, he didn't invent them. Magic Rings, Dwarves, Elves and Goblins have been legends of Europe (and nearly identical legends in other continents) for hundreds upon hundreds of years, and whatever their original creators intent or meaning was doesn't mean crap anymore.

Now ... as a pirate ... you must be REALLY upset with Tolkien for the negative way he portrayed your type as backstabbing, hired help who were an inferior branch of the seafaring race mingled with non-Numenoreans for YEARS (he must have been taking a stab at Latin American / Carribbean cultures?!) ... and because he went so far as to suggest that pirates and Haradrim (who coincidentally came regions of Middle Earth similar in geographical form to Africa) should all be killed by legions of ghosts who swore to fulfill an oath to the King of the White City. Is that supposed to be some sort of veiled support for the Ku Klux Klan?!

(Yeah yeah, I'm not so subtle.)

Funniest post ... EVER! Wholly inappropriate, politically incorrect, and swarthy and scurvy and everything in between ... now everybody laugh hysterically at the ridiculousness of human culture's idiotic past, and how far I think we've come (which is pretty damn far, but still isn't good enough). Laugh! LAUGH!

[eowyntje]

I find the theory represented in this topic not very likely. The idea that every race represents a country and the ring represents economic dominance seems unlikely to me.

However, there are a lot of things in the lord of the rings that could make you think that Tolkien was in some ways influenced by anti-communism or at least had kapitalist-sympaties.
A famous example is the group of orcs which captured Merry and Pippin, these were if I remmember correctly slit-eyed and comming from the east, which could be seen as a refference to the chinese.
Also the policies of Aragorn, in the story represented as the destend and perfect king, are quite kapitalistic and very militant. For example Aragorn tries to pursuade the more pacifistic Theoden who wants to flee to helms deep, to fight open war. Perhaps Tolkien found militant behaviour a good way to deal with the threath of war.
Then there is of course the fact that the perfect race, elves, were tall blond and blue eyed. And there are many more examples like this.

I'm not saying Tolkien was a racist or a kapitalist, I'm just saying the topic does need serious discussion.

[Anguirel]

Originally Posted by eowyntje

A famous example is the group of orcs which captured Merry and Pippin, these were if I remmember correctly slit-eyed and comming from the east, which could be seen as a refference to the chinese.
Also the policies of Aragorn, in the story represented as the destend and perfect king, are quite kapitalistic and very militant. For example Aragorn tries to pursuade the more pacifistic Theoden who wants to flee to helms deep, to fight open war. Perhaps Tolkien found militant behaviour a good way to deal with the threath of war.
Then there is of course the fact that the perfect race, elves, were tall blond and blue eyed. And there are many more examples like this.

I'm not saying Tolkien was a racist or a kapitalist, I'm just saying the topic does need serious discussion.

There are so many fallacies here...the point about the Orcs is simply absurd and contrived, the point about Aragorn and Theoden is only relevant with regard to the films, not the books. You might just as well say Tolkien was a racist for making Gothmog a pink orc.

And elves are not blonde and blue-eyed. Another filmic misconception. Only the Elves of the Vanyar and Finarfin's house (and, apparently, Thranduil) were blonde. The vast majority were dark. Almost all had grey eyes...

And Tolkien probably was a capitalist, as most men of his age and class were, to some degree; but he had an aesthetic distaste for capitalism, as you can see from his treatment of Saruman's capitalist schemes in Isengard and the Shire. This is why he has such a keen hippy following...

You have a point, Squidy, but please don't stereotype people.

I, for one, am my own person. There are others, too.

[eowyntje]

good points, I'm not saying tolkien was a racist and such, I'm just saying there are arguments for it, and they should not be overlooked as jokes.

[The Saucepan Man]

Originally Posted by eowyntje

I'm not saying tolkien was a racist and such, I'm just saying there are arguments for it, and they should not be overlooked as jokes.

This is a subject that has been discussed a number of time previously. Here are some pertinent threads:

Racism and Tolkien
Are Tolkien Books racist?
Lord of the Rings labelled racist
Racism in LotR?
A Disturbing Development

[Evisse the Blue]

I do think however you got the last bit wrong, Squidy. JRRT was not a time traveller, but a psychic. Clairvoyant to be more precise. He also had the ability to communicate telepathically with other dimensions (parallel worlds) and saw the developments there, that were not unlike those about to happen in this world. He saw the similarities and he wrote them down in this clever fictional disguise. So we don't live in Tolkien's Middle Earth, but in a second version of that Middle Earth. This is why Tolkien disregarded the allegory idea. Because it's not about allegory, it's about alternate realities. Get it?
Where's the proof, you'll ask? Well, didn't he say he merely recorded all these things, not invented them? Sure, with all you nonbelievers out there, he had to take this back in an end, but I bet he was muttering under his breah 'e pur si muove'.

[Saurreg]

From an outsider's point of view (i.e. neither from the western or eastern orthodox civilizations) I tend to find the dividing the line between capitalism and stalinism into "us or them" or the "good vs evil" sides amusing.

I try not to stereotype but from my impression, people living between both sides of the iron curtain during the cold war years tend to be indoctrinated and influenced into thinking that the other side is really bad. They are exposed to so much propaganda that any little aspect which, resembles a characteristic (factual or not) of the other another side is automatically deemed associated with that other side. In short its allegorical inquisition gone amok (which, incidently is a Malay word).

It's easy to understand why such paranoia can exist during the heady years but for it to find expression now is trully incredible. Perhaps the deep fear and distain for "the other side" are so strong that it has become part of the antagonists' cultural identity.

[Eomer of the Rohirrim]

Yes, but....what about The Lord of the Rings?

For my money, I'm going to be bold and say that the book is not such an allegory. The giveaway sign is in the names of the villains, Sauron and Saruman. If it was all about fighting communism then they would be called Commosticus and perhaps Marxavious.

Which makes me wonder......Saur, Sar.....what's it all about.....

Does HoME mention the significance of the names?

[eowyntje]

Originally Posted by The Saucepan Man

This is a subject that has been discussed a number of time previously. Here are some pertinent threads:

Racism and Tolkien
Are Tolkien Books racist?
Lord of the Rings labelled racist
Racism in LotR?
A Disturbing Development

thanks you , I will have a look at those