Saruman's economic infrastructure unexplained?

[Tuor of Gondolin]

I believe somewhere (in Letters?) Tolkien makes
observations regarding sauron's slave-tended fields in Nurn
something to the effect that even a tyrant needs an
economic infrastructure to support his policies. And it seems
that other areas, including Gondor, Rohan, Hobbiton, Lorien,
Laketown, the Beornings, etc., all have either an implicit or
explicit economic infrastructure. The exception seems to be
Saruman. Are there any suggestions or deductions as to how
he could support a 10,000 + army and some hundreds of auxiliaries,
such as wargs and the nonfighting elements needed to supply
them? After all, he controlled a fairly constrained area, the
Dunlendings don't seem to be more then a subsistence economy.
And he was hemmed in by Fangorn, Rohan, and the virtually desert
areas of Enedwaith. You can see how Sauron could draw on his
slave fields and tribute from east and south, Gondor on its outlying
areas, including the Pelennor Fields and South Gondor. But where
was Saruman's economic basis for power?

[Lindolirian]

I see what you mean. Isengard may have been a large and lavish Numenorean outpost, but it was still only that, an outpost. However, one has to remember that Saruman had many underground operations going on. He could have been mining in the Misty Mts. to the north or keeping barracks of Orcs under Nan Curunir. But still, all this was still probably not enough. My guess was that he was very deep in debt to Sauron who "loaned" him orcs and resources in an effort to build up his ally. Saruman seemed very unstable and his only option for survival was to spread over Rohan, not only for war in service to Sauron, but to be able to sustain himself.

[Hot, crispy nice hobbit]

This sounds interesting...

I had always assumed that Saruman just "leased" some of the lands from King Theoden via Grima; just like how Grima borrowed Theoden's sword (many other things that men missed).

To be exact, however, Saruman was said to have started fortifying Isengard in 2953... which gave him 64 years to give birth to 10,000 Uruk-hai, build foundaries and furnaces within the ring of Isengard, persuade the Dunlendings to join his cause, and tutor Grima in the ways of clever speech... All out of sight from stragglers.

Saruman must have had some deep underground laboratories underneath the Misty Mountains...

[Maerbenn]

Originally Posted by Hot, crispy nice hobbit

Saruman was said to have started fortifying Isengard in 2953... which gave him 64 years to give birth to 10,000 Uruk-hai

From note 7 (an Author’s note) to ‘The Palantíri’ in Unfinished Tales:

The [White] Council seems to have been unaware, since for many years Isengard had been closely guarded, of what went on within its Ring. The use, and possibly special breeding, of Orcs was kept secret, and cannot have begun much before 2990 at earliest. The Orc-troops seem never to have been used beyond the territory of Isengard before the attack on Rohan. Had the Council known of this they would, of course, at once have realized that Saruman had become evil.

[Eomer of the Rohirrim]

He got really busy and inventive. Plus, he was a powerful wizard.

[Kuruharan]

Here is a thread that in some ways relates to this topic.

[Tuor of Gondolin]

Interesting comments, particularly Saruman's time limitations
and the suggestion (serious?) of a Sauron subsidy and
assistance, as is the related link.

How about this as a possible way of Saruman's
skirting around his economic/geographic limitations:

Even taking into account Gandalf's observation:

But Isengard cannot fight Mordor, unless Saruman first obtains the Ring.

What if Saruman had been successful in not destroying Rohan but
rather in using Theoden and Wormtongue to forge an alliance (with
himself, of course, as dominant figure---think Hitler vis-a-vis Mussolini
in relative power). With this de facto grouping he could very well have
also alligned with the realpolitik Steward of Gondor. If you posit the
Ring remaining lost wouldn't this military/economic bloc, with a
neutral Lorien blocking Sauron efforts to flank it, have been capable
of at least holding the east side of the Anduin? Then Rhovannion might
have become the disputed region of these power blocs. And while
orcs and Gondor/Rohan fighting together seems odd, recall the
U.S.S.R. and U.S.A./U.K. alliance in World War II. Mordor would have the
bigger numbers + oliphaunts, but the western group would have
superior cavalry plus Saruman's technology, including blasting powder.
Oh yes, and you have Gandalf, Elrond, dwarves, and Beornings and
Laketowners causing mischief in the north.

Just a thought.

[alatar]

Is there any evidence regarding the assertion of Sauron's economic support of Saruman? This was something that I'd never considered while reading LOTR. Sauron knew what was going on in Orthanc, and may have provided some information at times (or Saruman stole the same), but I just can't see trainloads of orcs (Nan Curunir or Bust!) and supplies crossing the Anduin and Rohan without someone of import noticing.

My assumption has been that Saruman was using what he had on hand, and his hope was to get more stuff before that ran out. He used cash to buy supplies from the Shire (and possibly other places), and I'm sure who got the best deal when bartering. Surely he got what he could from Rohan, and not to be too graphic, but I think that he fed his troops with a variety of Soylent Green, if you follow me.

In regards to orcs (to me) it's implied that he somehow mated/crossed humans and orcs, and I think that those that got winnowed out went back into the pot.

[Meneltarmacil]

The problem with getting supplies from Sauron seems to be mainly a geographical one. The most direct route between Mordor and Isengard would be through Rohan, which Saruman was unable to ever fully control, though he did try.
I suppose Sauron could have sent supplies via ship from Umbar around Gondor to the coast of Dunland, possibly even up the Isen (though this is unlikely since Rohan controlled part of that area). However, this theory too runs into problems as Gondor probably wouldn't allow the Corsairs anywhere near their waters.

Of course, there is one other source of supplies that we know Saruman had been in contact with. He could have been secretly receiving food supplies and possibly some basic raw materials from the Shire (specifically the Southfarthing), though the distance is a problem here.

Is it possible that Saruman had set up some kind of large-scale food production system in Dunland? He certainly seems to have had a lot of influence there. Metal and wood are not much of a problem, since he had Fangorn's trees and the minerals present in the Misty Mountains.

[alatar]

Originally Posted by Meneltarmacil

Is it possible that Saruman had set up some kind of large-scale food production system in Dunland? He certainly seems to have had a lot of influence there. Metal and wood are not much of a problem, since he had Fangorn's trees and the minerals present in the Misty Mountains.

Agree that it would seem that the main problem faced by Saruman would be food - you either grow it or buy it. Would the Shire be able to support Saruman's forces, or did he pull also from Breeland?

[Gil-Galad]

Goblins from Moria fought for Saruman to revenge their fallen comrades during the time the fellowship went trhough...maybe they brought their food supplies through there? but i would guess it would probaly be from the Shire...

[Formendacil]

Originally Posted by Meneltarmacil

The problem with getting supplies from Sauron seems to be mainly a geographical one. The most direct route between Mordor and Isengard would be through Rohan, which Saruman was unable to ever fully control, though he did try.

Originally Posted by Gil-Galad

Goblins from Moria fought for Saruman to revenge their fallen comrades during the time the fellowship went through...maybe they brought their food supplies through there? but i would guess it would probaly be from the Shire...

These two posts have got me thinking. Perhaps Sauron's aid, such as it was, came from Dol Guldur? We know that this remained a major base of Sauron's during the War of the Ring, and it was certainly well-equipped, considering that it was the centre of the struggle against Lorien and Thranduil's realm. Is it too much of a stretch to imagine that they were passing supplies on to the orks of the Misty Mountains? North of Lorien there is ample space to be moving things from Mirkwood to the Mountains, and although the Beornings were clearly doing their best to keep the area thereabouts as enemy-free as possible, the image painted by Gloin when he talks with Frodo, in my mind at least, is that this was a less than successful battle, and there were all sorts of orks and such running amok in the Vale of the Anduin.

Once into or across the Mountains, it would be quite easy to hide the traces of the support from prying eyes, considering the very sparse population of those lands. And indeed, if there were interconnected goblin caverns as far south as Dunland, as seems to me to be very possible, then the goods could travel all the way from their entry into the mountains to Isengard without detection. And it might well be assumed by those knowing of their entry into the mountains that they would be used by the orks there, as indeed some of it probably was.

Anyway, that's my hypothesis. Is is reasonable, do you think?

[Kuruharan]

Very much so.

[Gil-Galad]

could always be slave labour involved...

[Tuor of Gondolin]

Interesting Dol Guldor theory, But wasn't it destroyed by the
White Council? On the other hand, orcs were clearly still in force
in much of the Misty Mountains, to send forces to join in
attacking the Fellowship.

And it's rather remarkable to consider what is actually
potentially the geopolitical centrality of Orthanc at what seems
at first glance an insignificant backwater. Perhaps Saruman's
policies weren't as ridiculously improbable as they seem in retrospect,
even if the Ring had remained hidden- or dispatched into the deeps of
the ocean, as was suggested at the Council of Ricendell.

[Mithalwen]

Dol Guldur was not destroyed by the white council - the Necromancer was merely driven from it (or so it seemed..). Dol Guldur stood until the war of the Ring when it was thrown down by the power of Galadriel following the assaults on Lorien by the forces that still garrisonned it...

[mormegil]

I particularly agree with the Dunland Theory. However, in reading these posts it has made me question how orc populations not under any direct control supported themselves with food. For example the orcs from Moria--they didn't have any real way to do this. Is there any explanation given on this in HoME? I can understand how Sauron's orcs received their sustenance but how would those in places like Moria do it? I don't think you could hunt for that amount of food. Also cannibalization wouldn't really work that well.

[Gil-Galad]

Cannibalization works...plus Moria goblins have been know nto venture out of hte caves and attack once and awhile, they probaly plunder when their out there

[mormegil]

Would they be able to plunder sufficient quantities and cannibalize enough to truly sustance themselves?

[Kuruharan]

I would think so. They seemingly bred like rabbits.

[mormegil]

I just can't see that this would be a viable way of sustaning a truly large population. What do others think? If cannibalization was the method would they kill those they would eat or would they wait for them to die either in battle or of age? My guess is that they would just kill those who were weaker.

[Kuruharan]

The population of Moria during normal times was not that great.

[the orcs in Moria] were in fact not very numerous

-UT footnote 11 The Hunt for the Ring

Moria seems to have been garrisoned rather than settled. The Balrog may not have wanted too many cohabitants.

Also remember that in Middle earth, the hunting is not entirely above ground. "Things" lived underground too, and I doubt that the orcs would refuse to eat them.

EDIT: Also remember the remarks of Gorbag and Shagrat about "Going to the Pot" are rather suggestive.

[alatar]

Originally Posted by mormegil

I just can't see that this would be a viable way of sustaning a truly large population. What do others think? If cannibalization was the method would they kill those they would eat or would they wait for them to die either in battle or of age? My guess is that they would just kill those who were weaker.

Can't see cannibalization as a really good way to sustain or especially build a population. Where is all of the soylent green as it were coming from? It almost sounds like a perpetual motion machine.

Assume that you have 100 full grown fully fed orcs in a cage. How long would they be able to go before the net number of orcs were reduced to where they would be useless as an army? Just sitting around burns calories. One orc would supply X calories, and so assume that one goes into the pot.

So now 99 less than well fed orcs are sitting around on day 2 (or whatever). They're hungry again, as that one orc was just enough. More orcs would need to go into the pot as each orc, being less than well fed, would provide less total calories. Maybe by day 5 it takes 2 orcs to provide X.

Anyway, you need some caloric input into the system.

[Kuruharan]

Evil oft causes its own demise.

(This topic has gotten rather sick and disturbed.)

[eowyntje]

a debate on how orcs eat eachother, interesting

cannibalism would not have been good for survival, a race can't produce as many calaries by breeding, as it eats.
Also I doubt that hunting inside moria was smart, there weren't that many animals there, considering the fellowship didn't meet any after an entire day in moria, and if there were any creatures, hunting them was probably dangerous.

[Kuruharan]

if there were any creatures, hunting them was probably dangerous.

Truth be told, that could be said about hunting a lot of things. I'm not sure the orcs would have been put off by that.

The orcs in Moria specifically were probably supplied by Dol Guldur and likely did not rely on eating each other too much, at least not for survival.

I think that for the rest of the orcs in the Misty Mountains cannibalism may have been a more substantial part of the diet.

[Formendacil]

Originally Posted by Kuruharan

I think that for the rest of the orcs in the Misty Mountains cannibalism may have been a more substantial part of the diet.

But hardly the only part. We know from The Hobbit that the Great Goblin often took a fancy to fish, and that they regularly ventured forth from the mountains to raid and pillage the Woodmen's villages.

And on the other side of the Misty Mountains, we know that the the Rangers were quite often dealing with ork raids and such, although probably not in numbers like on the eastern side.

Also, as the population of the orks in the Wilderland (esp. the Misty Mountains) regrew after the Battle of the Five Armies, the incidents of conflict between them and the "good" locals (eg. the Beornings) intensified. This most likely had to do, in large part, with the intensifying of Sauron's war, but I imagine that it served the ulterior motive of feeding the orks.

And we know for a fact, that the orks would eat human flest and horse flesh without a qualm, in addition to more normal things like sheep and fish. So those raiders might not have been after just sheep and such.

[Gil-Galad]

Don't forget, the Balrog is kind of different from the movie then the book, the book says the Balrog gathered the orcs and trolls to him to drive out the dwarves, while the movie it looks like the orcs fear it competely, they probaly do in the book, but not as much.

[Kuruharan]

But hardly the only part.

Agreed.

I think, though, the picture that emerges of the Misty Mountain orcs is that they were less well fed than those from Mordor, for example. In The Hobbit they are referred to as being always hungry which I think it is safe to say indicates that vittles were chronically short. This being so, I think it likely that if things were particularly lean they would bop a few unpopular orcs on the noggin and put meat back on the menu. (I'm sorry, I just couldn't resist.)

In Mordor, even a low ranking orc was referred to as well fed or at least in comparison with Sam. Although, considering how much Sam had to eat perhaps even a mountain orc would look well fed in comparison.

while the movie it looks like the orcs fear it competely, they probaly do in the book, but not as much.

Huh? If you mean in the books the orcs are portrayed as being rational creatures who were to some extent obedient to the Balrog and not a horde of irrational but heavily armed cockroaches then I'd agree completely.

However, this does not mean that the numbers of orcs in Moria were that great. The army that destroyed Balin's dwarves could have been drawn back to Dol Guldur in the intervening time (where the food was probably better).

[eowyntje]

Originally Posted by Kuruharan

Truth be told, that could be said about hunting a lot of things. I'm not sure the orcs would have been put off by that.

yes, but the result would be that some orcs died, which would not be veyr positive for the orc-poppulation in Moria.


I think it is veyr likely that the orcs outside Moria fed on whatever the found, from animals to traveling humans, and attacked villages nearby if they needed extra food.
But the orcs in Moria were not visited by traveler or many animals so often so they might have had some other source. (as Alatar explained so wll, feeding on cannibalism alone is biologically impossible) Perhaps orcs from the surrounding area borught them food, or they ventured outside to hunt.

[Kuruharan]

yes, but the result would be that some orcs died, which would not be veyr positive for the orc-poppulation in Moria.

There always seemed to be more where they came from...

[cookieman]

Hello, I'm new here, but if I may chime in, let's keep in mind that Saruman was amazingly cunning. He was a wizard, and he was smart enough to be the HEAD of the White Council. Elrond, Gandalf, and Galadriel,( keepers of the great rings) even with their reservations made him the head. You have all made some wonderful points. Saruman would be smart enough to use all of your ideas in combination. It is not only plausable, but Likely, that through his cunning he would be able to supply his army.

[A_Brandybuck]

I think, that Saruman's economic infrastructure is based on the production, which Isengart naturally have. I think, that Isengart itself must have a nearly autarc system or the possibility of being nearly autarc.
In the time before the coming of the Rohirrim, Isengart was an outpost in the nearly deserted fields of Calenardhon. The people living in Isengart must have fed themselven alone (I suppose).
That would mean, that there was an existing infrastructure on which Saruman could build his own economic infrastructure.
We know from Saruman, that he is a cunning head and we know also, that Saruman have some economic skills, because of the story with the tobacco and the Shire.
So, it is likely, that he did some trade not only with the pipeweed in the Shire, but also in other things. He had the mountains and the Dunlendings directly in front of his home. Consequently there was a potential of trade there.
We know also, that Saruman had many activities in the region of Dunlendings. Dunlendings were in his army and they succumb to the propaganda of Saruman (thinking that the Rohirrim are very cruel to his prisoners of war). I think, that such a propaganda needs some time and trust on the side of the Dunlendings towards Saruman. This time and this trust could Saruman had gained through economic things.

Which I can't explain with this theory is, how Saruman could feed thousands of orcs. But I find the Dol Guldor theory very good. ;-)

[Gil-Galad]

Hmmm...with the Dol Guldur theory, perhaps Sauron sent some of his food stuffs to Saruman? through the black gate to Dol Guldur, then across the river and trhough Rohan

[Kuruharan]

I don't know that food would necessarily have to come from Mordor. Hunting would be good in the forest, and some food could be grown locally.

[The Elf-warrior]

Saruman did grow some food in the area. From Chapter 8 of Book III:

Beneath the walls of Isengard there still were acres tilled by the slaves of Saruman; but most of the valley had become a wilderness of weeds and thorns.

[A_Brandybuck]

I think there is no doubt, that the food, which is cultivated in Isengard, is not enough for the thousands of orcs and similiar things.
In the meantime I doubt, that the food came the whole way from Mordor to Isengard. It is too risky for them. Such a supplying could be easily discovered by the 'enemy'.
What is about the theory about the 'lands' beyond the gap of Rohan? He could have bought the food in this lands. From the Dunlendings or later from the Shire (like the tobacco).

Or I remember, that I read somewhere, that there is the possibility to cultivate some food on plains in the mountains (I mean the Dwarves did that). Saruman could have lied his acres in Isengard idle to give noone the possibiliy to be suspicious. Instead of cultivate in Isengard, his could have 'out-sourced' the production of food to the near mountains.

[Gil-Galad]

hmmm... maybe he found a stash of welath in the tower and used to to buy his food from the shire... oh i just thought of something, Saruman could have got his food from Rohan because he wasn't at war with them yet, so he could have got the supplies he needed from them...maybe even gondor...keep in mind that Saruman was not originally evil