Cycles vs. linear time? - The Barrow-Downs Discussion Forum

Annunfuiniel · 03-04-2003, 11:43 AM

There seems to be two conceptions of time acting simultaneously in Arda: the time of elves which is cyclic, and the time of men, linear. When elves die it's not some fixed condition; they dwell in the Halls of Waiting until it's their time to move on. But when men die they have no chance to come back.

What I was thinking is how this fits the common ideas of time in the Middle Ages and at the beginning of new age. In the Middle Ages these two conceptions existed as in Arda from First Age till the beginning of the Fourth. Before the First Age (=in antiquity) cyclical view was the only view (with some exceptions) and then again when the time of elves was over and the time of men truly began (beginning of Fourth Age=renaissance) the "new" way to comprehend time overrun the old.

Does this sound even remotely logical way of thinking. I'll try to get back to the subject when I've cleared my head for a while and perhaps studied it bit more. Some enlightened comments would be welcome! [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img]

Arwen Imladris · 03-04-2003, 04:41 PM

I'm not sure that this is totally related, but even with "men" things can also go in cycles. Just look at art or music. The Baroque period had many of the same ideals as the Romantic period, for example.

Beren87 · 03-04-2003, 05:10 PM

Quote:

But when men die they have no chance to come back.

That of course wasn't set in stone.

And this is how it progressed in our world too, from the Mayan (for example) conception of time to our own.

And even elves time is linear as they generally don't come back. They dwell in the walls of waiting yes, but all they're really waiting for is the end of the world. It isn't really determined whither men go when they die.

littlemanpoet · 03-05-2003, 08:42 AM

Renaissance = 4th age is probably just for comparison's sake, so fine.

According to the author of "How the Celts Saved Civilization" (I can't think of his name right now), all humans experienced time cyclically until Abram, who was the first to break away from cyclicality to a linear experience of time, going somewhere to fulfill a destiny. Does destiny have to do with linear, versus cyclical time, I wonder? Because Tolkien writes a lot about destiny and doom. In this sense, it seems to me that the Vanyar experienced time cyclically, and so did the Teleri, and many of the Wood elves (Moriquendi), but the Noldor, and those they affected, experienced time linearly, because they swore an oath whose process of fulfillment overwhelmed cyclicality. Make sense?

Bill Ferny · 03-05-2003, 11:25 PM

Poet, are you referring to Thomas Cahill’s How the Irish Saved Civilization? It’s a great book. I don’t recall any details in that book regarding the Celt conception of time, though.

the guy who be short · 03-06-2003, 07:38 AM

what exactly happened to the dwarves? was their time linear or cyclical?
it was said that aule reserved a place in the halls of mandos for the dwarves. and it was said that durin the deathless was reborn. so did they go in circles too?

Arvedui III · 03-06-2003, 11:55 AM

Good question. Dunno for sure, I'll have to look it up later, but my feeling is that dwarves maybe have had cycle time orginaly, but something happened to cause them to stop experiencing time cycisticly(oh gosh I have bad spelling). Much like the Noldor. Because by the third age dwarves most definitly are in liner time. And if this is completly off, I appologize in advace. [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img]

03-04-2003, 11:43 AM	#1
Annunfuiniel Ghost Prince of Cardolan Join Date: Feb 2003 Location: Something close like Shire Posts: 769	Cycles vs. linear time? There seems to be two conceptions of time acting simultaneously in Arda: the time of elves which is cyclic, and the time of men, linear. When elves die it's not some fixed condition; they dwell in the Halls of Waiting until it's their time to move on. But when men die they have no chance to come back. What I was thinking is how this fits the common ideas of time in the Middle Ages and at the beginning of new age. In the Middle Ages these two conceptions existed as in Arda from First Age till the beginning of the Fourth. Before the First Age (=in antiquity) cyclical view was the only view (with some exceptions) and then again when the time of elves was over and the time of men truly began (beginning of Fourth Age=renaissance) the "new" way to comprehend time overrun the old. Does this sound even remotely logical way of thinking. I'll try to get back to the subject when I've cleared my head for a while and perhaps studied it bit more. Some enlightened comments would be welcome! [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img] __________________ Despair is only for those who see the end beyond all doubt.

03-04-2003, 04:41 PM	#2
Arwen Imladris Ghost Prince of Cardolan Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: In a box with a fox Posts: 1,347	I'm not sure that this is totally related, but even with "men" things can also go in cycles. Just look at art or music. The Baroque period had many of the same ideals as the Romantic period, for example. __________________ "Wake up! Wake up! Wake up, sleepies, we must go, yes, we must go at once."

03-05-2003, 11:25 PM	#5
Bill Ferny Shade of Carn Dûm Join Date: Aug 2002 Location: Bree Posts: 390	Poet, are you referring to Thomas Cahill’s How the Irish Saved Civilization? It’s a great book. I don’t recall any details in that book regarding the Celt conception of time, though. __________________ I prefer Gillaume d’Férny, connoisseur of fine fruit.

03-06-2003, 11:55 AM	#7
Arvedui III Ghost Prince of Cardolan Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: In Rohan, with Carolina on my mind Posts: 629	Good question. Dunno for sure, I'll have to look it up later, but my feeling is that dwarves maybe have had cycle time orginaly, but something happened to cause them to stop experiencing time cycisticly(oh gosh I have bad spelling). Much like the Noldor. Because by the third age dwarves most definitly are in liner time. And if this is completly off, I appologize in advace. [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img] __________________ I have no idea what you just said, but I'm inspired!

03-05-2003, 08:42 AM	#4
littlemanpoet Itinerant Songster Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: The Edge of Faerie Posts: 7,066	Renaissance = 4th age is probably just for comparison's sake, so fine. According to the author of "How the Celts Saved Civilization" (I can't think of his name right now), all humans experienced time cyclically until Abram, who was the first to break away from cyclicality to a linear experience of time, going somewhere to fulfill a destiny. Does destiny have to do with linear, versus cyclical time, I wonder? Because Tolkien writes a lot about destiny and doom. In this sense, it seems to me that the Vanyar experienced time cyclically, and so did the Teleri, and many of the Wood elves (Moriquendi), but the Noldor, and those they affected, experienced time linearly, because they swore an oath whose process of fulfillment overwhelmed cyclicality. Make sense?

03-06-2003, 07:38 AM	#6
the guy who be short Shadowed Prince Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: Thulcandra Posts: 2,343	what exactly happened to the dwarves? was their time linear or cyclical? it was said that aule reserved a place in the halls of mandos for the dwarves. and it was said that durin the deathless was reborn. so did they go in circles too?