The three rings - The Barrow-Downs Discussion Forum

annuncolloion · 03-03-2003, 08:57 PM

In the council of Elrond a couple theories are put forth as to what would happen to the three elven rings should the one ring be destroyed. One theory is that they would be liberated from the One's power. Another that they would lose their power.
I don't know if anyone else has noticed this, but in book II of Return of the King Gandalf mentions to Frodo that the Three have lost their power. Only a week or two had passed since the One was destroyed. How did Gandalf already know that the power of the Three rings was gone?
He was the bearer of one of them, but did he carry it with him all the time? and wouldn't he have lost it in Moria when he triumphed over the Balrog, died, and was sent back naked?
I just want to know how Gandalf knew the Three were diminished.

Legolas · 03-03-2003, 10:26 PM

Gandalf still bore his Ring after his fall in Moria. He still had Glamdring after the Battle of the Peak so there's no reason to believe he would've lost Narya.

Bearing it and being quite aware of things relating to magic, the power of his ring and other powers elsewhere, I'm sure he would've felt the difference once the One Ring was destroyed.

Scott · 03-04-2003, 12:36 AM

I pretty much agree with you here, Legolas, however, since the three elven rings were made before and independant from the One Ring at first, why is it that they would diminish in power after the One was destroyed? I hope this isn't blasphemous to anyone, but could Tolkien have missed something in his near-immaculate work? By all means, please correct my insolence if I'm wrong.

Annunfuiniel · 03-04-2003, 02:10 AM

Yes, the three elven rings were forged free of the influence of Sauron. But still when the One Ring was made its power extended to them also. Maybe this came to happen 'cause Sauron knew about their existence and thus could bind them to the One's "spell". That meaning that if they had been found Sauron could have used them for his evil purposes. But the difference lies in just that: he couldn't find/see them because he hadn't had any staight influence in their forging. Still the destiny of the Three was forever bound to the fate of the One.
There you go, feel free to disagree. [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img]
Oh, one more thought: maybe the declining of the powers of the rings was also related to the diminishing of their bearers? The time of elves and wizards was over once the Ring was destroyed...

Tar-Palantir · 03-04-2003, 02:51 AM

The making of the three elven rings could not have taken place without the knowledge that Sauron provided. His purpose in creating the One Ring was to control all the other rings of power, which to his knowledge were only the seven and the nine. Somehow or other, perhaps because of the use of similar forging methods, his one ring was tied to those of the elves (open for other interpretation of course). Meaning their fate was entwined as well, the inscription on the ring tells us so - "...and in the darkness bind them", pretty clear, it just doesn't say how. So, if that is the case, then it also makes sense that the destruction of the one would diminish the others. It wasn't till after his one ring was forged that he became aware of Nenya, Narya and Vilya. The other rings of power, which he actually had a direct hand in the making of, he captured by force from Celebrimbor then handed out to the men and the dwarves - again because of his 'control issues'. [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img]

Annunfuiniel · 03-04-2003, 03:13 AM

Oh, I see, glad that someone corrected me! [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img] I knew I shouldn't have started guessing without certain knowledge (The Hobbit, LoTR and half of the Silm aren't enough, I KNOW!)...but then again now I'm a bit (very tiny bit, though) wiser. [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img]
"One Ring to rule them ALL,..." So, lucky Sauron for not being more specific otherwise he might have had much more difficulties with the Three... [img]smilies/biggrin.gif[/img]

03-04-2003, 05:04 AM

remember that previously to the destruction of the great ring, only a ringbearer could see one of the three rings, but afterwards, it is clear to see who the ringbearers were. I think that now the age of the elves was over, the rings no longer had the power to lead that race, because it was no longer their time

Phrim · 03-04-2003, 09:06 AM

I could be wrong, but it seems to me that the Three were visible after the destruction of the One simply because their bearers no longer hid them. I don't really think that the destruction of the One Ring itself, or the fact that it was "no longer the age of elves" or somesuch played a part in this. After the One Ring was destroyed, there was no longer any reason for the Three to be hidden, so the bearers of the Three ceased to hide them.

Remember also that when Sauron first created the One Ring, the bearers of the Three immediately knew Sauron's treachery, and the Three were said to have gone into hiding.

Iarhen · 03-04-2003, 11:27 AM

I have a question.

Tolkien says that when Sauron created the One Ring, the elven lords noticed it and took off theirs, and hid them.

So, my question is: if Sauron did not have a direct influence in the making of the 3, but ultimately could dominate and see what the bearers of the 3 were thinking, were the elven lords that used the 3 able to see Sauron's thiking and planning?

Since Nenya gave Galadriel the power to see what Sauron was thinking, or at lest increased her power so she could do it, maybe Vilya, Narya and Nenya allowed their bearers to see what Sauron did (the creation of the One Ring) and the intentions he had with his ring, and ultimately, let the 3 ring bearers know that with his One Ring, Sauron could control and see what the bearers of the 3 rings thought?

So, did the 3 rings made them acknowledge what Sauron wanted?

Its a good explanation 4 me!

Tar-Palantir · 03-04-2003, 01:22 PM

There has to be other threads that explain this, I'll look later. But I think all the One Ring accomplished was to expose the bearers of the three, expose their minds. So that Sauron would know many things, and he would go and take the Rings. But, obviously they were hidden, and it wasn't until after the last alliance, when Isuldur cut the Ring off Sauron's hand, that they could wear them again freely. I don't know if Sauron could have actually controlled them, or put them in thrall when he was wearing the one:

Quote:

were the elven lords that used the 3 able to see Sauron's thiking and planning?

Yes, to some degree or other, they knew when he was at wearing his, and so likely percieved more. But it would have been a sore trade-off to pursue info that way, Sauron was strong enough to take what they had - presumably. If a stronger than you, evil guy wanted to hunt you down and kill you and all your kin and take one of the major powers your people held (one of the rings), would you let him know your location? For any reason? To know his mind? They already knew his mind, they already knew his desire for their power and their destruction, they already knew he dwelt in Mordor.

On the other hand, he did not know where they were or what their plans were. So what was the point in the elves revealing any information to Sauron? They would get little in exchange.

[ March 04, 2003: Message edited by: Tar-Palantir ]

Burzdol · 03-07-2003, 12:20 PM

The Rings probably won't be affected. They were created seperate from the One.

~Burzdol~

03-03-2003, 08:57 PM	#1
annuncolloion Pile O'Bones Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: US Posts: 12	The three rings In the council of Elrond a couple theories are put forth as to what would happen to the three elven rings should the one ring be destroyed. One theory is that they would be liberated from the One's power. Another that they would lose their power. I don't know if anyone else has noticed this, but in book II of Return of the King Gandalf mentions to Frodo that the Three have lost their power. Only a week or two had passed since the One was destroyed. How did Gandalf already know that the power of the Three rings was gone? He was the bearer of one of them, but did he carry it with him all the time? and wouldn't he have lost it in Moria when he triumphed over the Balrog, died, and was sent back naked? I just want to know how Gandalf knew the Three were diminished. __________________ "I will take it... I will take it... I will take the ring to Mordor, though I do not know the way" Is it just me, or is that quote applicable to a lot of situations in life?

03-03-2003, 10:26 PM	#2
Legolas A Northern Soul Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: Valinor Posts: 1,847	Gandalf still bore his Ring after his fall in Moria. He still had Glamdring after the Battle of the Peak so there's no reason to believe he would've lost Narya. Bearing it and being quite aware of things relating to magic, the power of his ring and other powers elsewhere, I'm sure he would've felt the difference once the One Ring was destroyed. __________________ ...take counsel with thyself, and remember who and what thou art.

03-04-2003, 12:36 AM	#3
Scott Wight Join Date: Feb 2003 Location: Ohio/Grey Havens Posts: 183	I pretty much agree with you here, Legolas, however, since the three elven rings were made before and independant from the One Ring at first, why is it that they would diminish in power after the One was destroyed? I hope this isn't blasphemous to anyone, but could Tolkien have missed something in his near-immaculate work? By all means, please correct my insolence if I'm wrong. __________________ Those who the Gods would destroy, They first make mad. ~Those Crazy Greeks

03-04-2003, 02:10 AM	#4
Annunfuiniel Ghost Prince of Cardolan Join Date: Feb 2003 Location: Something close like Shire Posts: 769	Yes, the three elven rings were forged free of the influence of Sauron. But still when the One Ring was made its power extended to them also. Maybe this came to happen 'cause Sauron knew about their existence and thus could bind them to the One's "spell". That meaning that if they had been found Sauron could have used them for his evil purposes. But the difference lies in just that: he couldn't find/see them because he hadn't had any staight influence in their forging. Still the destiny of the Three was forever bound to the fate of the One. There you go, feel free to disagree. [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img] Oh, one more thought: maybe the declining of the powers of the rings was also related to the diminishing of their bearers? The time of elves and wizards was over once the Ring was destroyed... __________________ Despair is only for those who see the end beyond all doubt.

03-04-2003, 02:51 AM	#5
Tar-Palantir Shade of Carn Dûm Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: napa valley, ca Posts: 496	The making of the three elven rings could not have taken place without the knowledge that Sauron provided. His purpose in creating the One Ring was to control all the other rings of power, which to his knowledge were only the seven and the nine. Somehow or other, perhaps because of the use of similar forging methods, his one ring was tied to those of the elves (open for other interpretation of course). Meaning their fate was entwined as well, the inscription on the ring tells us so - "...and in the darkness bind them", pretty clear, it just doesn't say how. So, if that is the case, then it also makes sense that the destruction of the one would diminish the others. It wasn't till after his one ring was forged that he became aware of Nenya, Narya and Vilya. The other rings of power, which he actually had a direct hand in the making of, he captured by force from Celebrimbor then handed out to the men and the dwarves - again because of his 'control issues'. [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img] __________________ History shows again and again How nature points up the folly of men Go, go, Godzilla!

03-04-2003, 03:13 AM	#6
Annunfuiniel Ghost Prince of Cardolan Join Date: Feb 2003 Location: Something close like Shire Posts: 769	Oh, I see, glad that someone corrected me! [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img] I knew I shouldn't have started guessing without certain knowledge (The Hobbit, LoTR and half of the Silm aren't enough, I KNOW!)...but then again now I'm a bit (very tiny bit, though) wiser. [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img] "One Ring to rule them ALL,..." So, lucky Sauron for not being more specific otherwise he might have had much more difficulties with the Three... [img]smilies/biggrin.gif[/img] __________________ Despair is only for those who see the end beyond all doubt.

03-04-2003, 05:04 AM	#7
Groul Guest Posts: n/a	remember that previously to the destruction of the great ring, only a ringbearer could see one of the three rings, but afterwards, it is clear to see who the ringbearers were. I think that now the age of the elves was over, the rings no longer had the power to lead that race, because it was no longer their time

03-04-2003, 09:06 AM	#8
Phrim Haunting Spirit Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: New Jersey, USA Posts: 72	I could be wrong, but it seems to me that the Three were visible after the destruction of the One simply because their bearers no longer hid them. I don't really think that the destruction of the One Ring itself, or the fact that it was "no longer the age of elves" or somesuch played a part in this. After the One Ring was destroyed, there was no longer any reason for the Three to be hidden, so the bearers of the Three ceased to hide them. Remember also that when Sauron first created the One Ring, the bearers of the Three immediately knew Sauron's treachery, and the Three were said to have gone into hiding.

03-04-2003, 11:27 AM	#9
Iarhen Wight Join Date: Feb 2003 Location: Laurelindorenan Posts: 225	I have a question. Tolkien says that when Sauron created the One Ring, the elven lords noticed it and took off theirs, and hid them. So, my question is: if Sauron did not have a direct influence in the making of the 3, but ultimately could dominate and see what the bearers of the 3 were thinking, were the elven lords that used the 3 able to see Sauron's thiking and planning? Since Nenya gave Galadriel the power to see what Sauron was thinking, or at lest increased her power so she could do it, maybe Vilya, Narya and Nenya allowed their bearers to see what Sauron did (the creation of the One Ring) and the intentions he had with his ring, and ultimately, let the 3 ring bearers know that with his One Ring, Sauron could control and see what the bearers of the 3 rings thought? So, did the 3 rings made them acknowledge what Sauron wanted? Its a good explanation 4 me! __________________ "In place of a Dark Lord you will have a Queen! Not dark but beatiful and terrible as the Dawn! Treacherous as the sea! Stronger than the foundations of the Earth! All shall love me and despair!" --- Galadriel when tempted by the One Ring.

03-07-2003, 12:20 PM	#11
Burzdol Shade of Carn Dûm Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: The Fair City of Rivendell Posts: 274	The Rings probably won't be affected. They were created seperate from the One. ~Burzdol~ __________________ "Kill them all for all I care. You just keep that bow away from me!"