Hurin's knowledge after his release - The Barrow-Downs Discussion Forum

Aragost · 03-03-2003, 07:09 PM

After Hurin was released by Morgoth, he went to Amon Rhud. When he first looked at it why did he know what had taken place there without being told or experiencing it? This was also the same with the graves of his children. This is really bugging me so can anybody answer this?

**lindil** · 03-03-2003, 09:29 PM

The Silmarillion reports that after Hurin boldly [indeed proudly] defied Morgoth to his face, Morgoth set the infamous curse upon his family. In addition he told Hurin that he would see and know everything that he [Morgoth knew]. So in the case of Glaurung, whose evil will was in some sense an extension of Morgoth's. Morgoth and thus Hurin knew is some fashion at least what passed between Turin and the Dragon.

We do not know the limitations of perception of a Vala, but it is said that morgoth had some part in all of the gifts of each of the other Valar. So his hearing would be a lesser versions of Manwe, who could hear things from all over the world, Varda could see over all the world, and Ulmo sensed anything that came into contact with the streams and rivers of the world, etc,. So we are talking about subtle spiritual perceptions in some cases, and of perception through his servants in others.

Hope that helps a bit.

And actually I do not think Hurin ever went to Amon Rudh [though Turin's band had a lair there] Hurin was first released back to his former domain of Hithlum, then the encircling Mountains were he inadvertantly tips of Morgoth to Turgon's general locale, then Brethil [not in the Silm, but in War of the Jewels], and finally Doriath, before ending his life at the sea.

[ March 03, 2003: Message edited by: lindil ]

Aiwendil · 03-03-2003, 09:59 PM

Quote:

Hurin was first released back to his former domain of Hithlum, then the encircling Mountains were he inadvertantly tips of Morgoth to Turgon's general locale, then Brethil [not in the Silm, but in War of the Jewels], and finally Doriath, before ending his life at the sea.

Don't forget the stop at Nargothrond.

I've always been curious as to how much of Turin's life Hurin actually saw. He seems to be quite familiar with much of it - he knew at least vaguely what transpired in Brethil, Nargothrond, and Doriath, or else he wouldn't have gone to those places seeking his cursed restitution/vengeance. But it never seems that Morgoth was literally able to watch Turin or anyone else with some sort of clairvoyance.

Kuruharan · 03-03-2003, 10:15 PM

I doubt that Morgoth let Hurin see everything. It would be more in keeping with his character to just let Hurin see the negative.

**lindil** · 03-03-2003, 11:57 PM

yes I did forget to type Nargothrond.

Quote:

It would be more in keeping with his character to just let Hurin see the negative.

So it says in the Narn [I think] or possibly WoH.

"That Morgoth ever assayed to hide from Hurin aught that was good or valiant in the deeds of Turin". or something close.

Quote:

But it never seems that Morgoth was literally able to watch Turin or anyone else with some sort of clairvoyance.

I think there was some limited form of clairvoyance, not as perfect as Varda's or manwe's Clairaudience. But something, especially in conjunction with slaves such as Glaurung.

[ March 04, 2003: Message edited by: lindil ]

Inderjit Sanghera · 03-04-2003, 06:01 AM

Whilst we are on the subject of the 'Wanderings of Hurin', did Hurin find his companions from Dor-lomin after he left Brethil? It just ends abruptly.

And I trust that Hurin's confrontation with Thingol in 'BoLT 2' was the basis that Chris Tolkien used for the Published 'Silmarillion'?

03-03-2003, 07:09 PM	#1
Aragost Wight Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: Arthedain Posts: 137	Hurin's knowledge after his release After Hurin was released by Morgoth, he went to Amon Rhud. When he first looked at it why did he know what had taken place there without being told or experiencing it? This was also the same with the graves of his children. This is really bugging me so can anybody answer this? __________________ Where there's a whip there's a will

03-03-2003, 09:29 PM	#2
lindil Seeker of the Straight Path Join Date: Jul 2000 Location: a hidden fastness in Big Valley nor cal Posts: 1,680	The Silmarillion reports that after Hurin boldly [indeed proudly] defied Morgoth to his face, Morgoth set the infamous curse upon his family. In addition he told Hurin that he would see and know everything that he [Morgoth knew]. So in the case of Glaurung, whose evil will was in some sense an extension of Morgoth's. Morgoth and thus Hurin knew is some fashion at least what passed between Turin and the Dragon. We do not know the limitations of perception of a Vala, but it is said that morgoth had some part in all of the gifts of each of the other Valar. So his hearing would be a lesser versions of Manwe, who could hear things from all over the world, Varda could see over all the world, and Ulmo sensed anything that came into contact with the streams and rivers of the world, etc,. So we are talking about subtle spiritual perceptions in some cases, and of perception through his servants in others. Hope that helps a bit. And actually I do not think Hurin ever went to Amon Rudh [though Turin's band had a lair there] Hurin was first released back to his former domain of Hithlum, then the encircling Mountains were he inadvertantly tips of Morgoth to Turgon's general locale, then Brethil [not in the Silm, but in War of the Jewels], and finally Doriath, before ending his life at the sea. [ March 03, 2003: Message edited by: lindil ] __________________ The dwindling Men of the West would often sit up late into the night exchanging lore & wisdom such as they still possessed that they should not fall back into the mean estate of those who never knew or indeed rebelled against the Light.

03-03-2003, 10:15 PM	#4
Kuruharan Regal Dwarven Shade Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: A Remote Dwarven Hold Posts: 3,591	I doubt that Morgoth let Hurin see everything. It would be more in keeping with his character to just let Hurin see the negative. __________________ ...finding a path that cannot be found, walking a road that cannot be seen, climbing a ladder that was never placed, or reading a paragraph that has no...

03-04-2003, 06:01 AM	#6
Inderjit Sanghera Ghost Prince of Cardolan Join Date: Nov 2002 Location: Wolverhampton, England Posts: 716	Whilst we are on the subject of the 'Wanderings of Hurin', did Hurin find his companions from Dor-lomin after he left Brethil? It just ends abruptly. And I trust that Hurin's confrontation with Thingol in 'BoLT 2' was the basis that Chris Tolkien used for the Published 'Silmarillion'? __________________ “If I’m more of an influence on your son as a rapper then you are as a father then you've got to look at yourself as a parent” ~>Ice Cube. "Life is so beautiful"->Don Vito Corleone