Dear G; Tried to find you...

[Garen LiLorian]

It can be reasonably supposed that Imladris was under no direct threat during the war of the Ring, right? That is, Elrond was able and willing to send Elladan and Elrohir with Halbarad to the aid of Aragorn. Now, my question is this; why didn't Glorfindel ride with the Grey Company? After all, he reincarnated to fight Sauron, so his absence from the great conflicts at the end of the Third Age seems a bit odd. Although Halbarad brings up the point that only twenty or so Rangers could be gathered in haste, surely this would not apply to those reachable by osanwe? If Elladan and Elrohir came along, why not Glorfindel?

[Ainaserkewen]

Perhaps Glorfindel was off fighting Sauron at different fronts, which was pretty much everywhere during the time that Frodo was on his way to Mordor.

[Formendacil]

Originally Posted by Ainaserkewen

Perhaps Glorfindel was off fighting Sauron at different fronts, which was pretty much everywhere during the time that Frodo was on his way to Mordor.

It's quite possible. For all we know, Glorfindel was in Lothlorien. After all, he came to Gondor in the group that included the elves of Lothlorien, as well as the Elves of Rivendell. Or maybe he was in Mirkwood.

Also, Rivendell wasn't under seige by a great army, true. That does not mean that Rivendell was not without dangers. If there were packs of men threatening Bree and the Shire, and considering Rivendell's proximity to the Mountains and the Orks and Wargs, it is not more than likely that Rivendell would have been surrounded by some sort of fighting, although more of the skirmish nature?

Glorfindel could have stayed and led the fight in the defense of Rivendell. Unlike Elladan and Elrohir, he doesn't seemed to have cared to take part in great battles just for the sake of them. (I forget where to find it, but doesn't it say that Elladan and Elrohir rode with the Dunedain because they would not be left out of the great deeds of the times?) And with the Sons of Elrond gone, SOMEONE had to lead the defense of Rivendell, small though the job might be in comparison to that in Rohan or Gondor. And Elrond seems to have long since given up the sword by this time (cf. comments in Morgoth's Ring about healers not being fighters).

[Essex]

I remember this query popping up on another lotr forum a few years back. I'm not sure if we have anything like it here at the Barrow-downs, but it was a debate from two teams on whether particular events would have gone better if changes were made tothe plot.

The question was, would it have been better to send Glorfindel instead of Pippin as a member of the Fellowship? Very interesting points were raised, ie Glorfindel would probably have helped Gandalf defeat the balrog and gandalf might not have fallen off the bridge. This led to a big domino effect - ie would have gandalf gone with frodo and sam? ie no defence of MT or aid to Theoden? maybe merry and pippin would not have been captured, and therefore no defeat of Saruman via the Ents, etc?

Maybe there is an area on the site that has these sort of discussions, but I haven't seen one.....

[Mithalwen]

It says in LOTR that Rivendell had not the strength to withstand the full might of Sauron. It would hold out longest perhaps because of the power that dwellt there and its geographic seclusion, but if all else fell it would fall. The ring quest was hope against hope and only succeeded because of the combination of circumstances.

It was the habit of the sons of Elrond to work with their kin. It would have been a different matter to send Rivendell's general - it was Glorfindel who led the forces of imladris against the witch king. By the time of the War of the Ring, Elrond is a healer not a warrior - and the elves believed that the two roles were incompatible. Glorfindel was probably believed to be vital to the protection and in worst case scenario, evacuation of Rivendell.

[burrahobbit]

Elrond was always a healer and not a warrior. As you said, the two roles are incompatible. That means that they are incompatible always, and you can't switch around willy nilly. It also means that he can't hunt.

[Mithalwen]

Originally Posted by burrahobbit

Elrond was always a healer and not a warrior. As you said, the two roles are incompatible. That means that they are incompatible always, and you can't switch around willy nilly. It also means that he can't hunt.

In that case what was he doing with Gil Galad during the war of the last alliance ? I don't think he would have just been holding his cloak.....

[burrahobbit]

Waving flags and blowing trumpets.

(He was a herald.)

(It doesn't matter what you think.)

[Mithalwen]

Originally Posted by burrahobbit

Waving flags and blowing trumpets.

(He was a herald.)

(It doesn't matter what you think.)

And I thought this was a discussion board. And for the record I disagree. If you provide textual evidence that he didn't actually fight, I will reconsider.

[burrahobbit]

`I was the herald of Gil-galad and marched with his host. I was at the Battle of Dagorlad before the Black Gate of Mordor, where we had the mastery: for the Spear of Gil-galad and the Sword of Elendil, Aiglos and Narsil, none could withstand. I beheld the last combat on the slopes of Orodruin, where Gil-galad died, and Elendil fell, and Narsil broke beneath him; but Sauron himself was overthrown, and Isildur cut the Ring from his hand with the hilt-shard of his father's sword, and took it for his own.'

I wonder what the name of Elrond's sword was.

The might of Elrond is in wisdom not in weapons, it is said.

That's what Boromir said, and he knew the fellow personally.

Also, just to be clear about what a herald is: http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=herald

[Mithalwen]

That proves nothing it is just your inference. Boromir knew Elrond thousands of years after the battle of the last alliance. Elrond is a master of Lore and knows things that others have forgotten, but it cannot be imagined that at this time, Rivendell could have mustered an army to rival Sauron's. However his wisdom is a factor Sauron's overthrow.

Eonwe was the herald of Manwe and led the forces of the Valar at the war of Wrath. I would say he counted as a warrior ....

[burrahobbit]

If Elrond had fought at the Last Alliance I would expect him to have said such in his description of the events. As it stands, all I see him talking about is Gil Galad and Elendil. Maybe Tolkien made a mistake and left out the part where Elrond stabbed Sauron in the face and killed him forever?

Eonwe is not an Elf, and as such is not bound by their kill/heal exclusionary rule.

[Fordim Hedgethistle]

Perhaps Glorfindel was off fighting Sauron at different fronts, which was pretty much everywhere during the time that Frodo was on his way to Mordor.

Methinks I smell an RPG...

[davem]

I'm not sure there is any definitive proof either way, but certainly some Quakers & other conscientious objectors served in the forces during WW1 & WWII serving in medical corps:

(http://www.ppu.org.uk/learn/infodocs...ion_l.html#ww1) & (http://www.religioustolerance.org/quaker.htm)

The first and second World Wars created a crisis for the movement. Until that time, the Society was a pacifist organization. Any Quaker who became a soldier was ejected from the community. However, during the two wars, some men were drawn up by the nationalistic fervor, and entered the armed forces. During World War II, many American Quakers joined the Friends Ambulance Unit, an unofficial body supported by British Quakers. This allowed Quakers to volunteer as medical and ambulance personnel on the battlefields of the Middle East, India, China, and northwestern Europe. 2,3 This was a particularly high risk assignment. All four branches of the faith joined together at the time of the first World War to create the American Friends Service Committee. This agency allowed many Quaker conscientious objectors to help alleviate suffering while avoiding conscription.

While this doesn't prove that Elrond was a non-combatant in the Last Alliance, it does show that non-combatants (particularly healers) could be found on the battlefield...

[burrahobbit]

Btw, Tolkien says that "the Eldar deemed that the dealing of death, even when lawful or under necessity, diminished the power of healing," so there. As we all know, Elrond is the greatest healer that ever existed (in the Third Age). If he bothered to kill things (even lawfully, as Tolkien himself says) he would have become less of a healer. Also, davem brings up a very good point that I don't think I need to expound on.

[Garen LiLorian]

While this is not exactly the topic I brought up, it is still an interesting one. I tend to agree with Mithalwen about Elrond's status during the Last Alliance. Davem's point is interesting, but clearly Elrond was not to be found in the infirmary, as he was Gil-Galad's herald. This means he would have been with Gil-Galad at all times. (Heralds did not simply blow challenges, he would also have been in charge of sounding advances and retreats, neccessitating his proximity) and also, the quote

He alone stood by his father in that last mortal contest; and by Gil-Galad only Cirdan, and I

seems to advance that point. If he was indeed never separated from Gil-Galad's side, it is hard to imagine that he would never have had to fight, or not carried a weapon as well as a trumpet or banner.

I also don't think that his description is final proof. As we all know, he wasn't telling the story of what he did during the last alliance. He was telling the story of what happened. Therefor, if he had, in fact, "stabbed Sauron in the face and killed him forever" he probably would have mentioned it. However, his boasting about the orc he killed while Gil-Galad and Elendil were fighting Sauron wouldn't really be in character, or pertinent to the topic at hand.

And while he is the greatest healer of the third age, I doubt greatly that there is really anyone to compete with him, whether he had killed a few orcs thousands of years ago or not. The only people I can think of, at any rate, who even might approach his skill in healing are Galadriel and Celeborn, and I tend to think that they too have taken part in the defence of their realms and the battles of the several ages that have passed.

[burrahobbit]

If he was indeed never separated from Gil-Galad's side, it is hard to imagine that he would never have had to fight, or not carried a weapon as well as a trumpet or banner.

Unless Gil-Galad's banner is topped with a spearhead, I don't see how he could have had enough hands for that.

While it may not be in character for him to have boasted about the single orc he killed thousands of years ago, I find it equally out of character to have killed that orc to begin with.

[Eruanna]

One of the medieval herald's tasks, apart from announcing challenges and later recounting a chronicle of the battle, was to 'keep an eye on' his leader's warriors so that he could report on their progress, state of health etc during the battle. He had to take messages up and down the battle lines. He would, of necessity, have been armed, as he was in great danger (an easy target, waving his lord's banner about)
I tend to agree with Garen and Mithalwen, there is no definite proof that Elrond did not fight in battle.
In 'The Hobbit', Elrond is described thus:

"...as noble and as fair in face as an elf-lord, as strong as a warrior, as wise as a wizard, as venerable as a king of dwarves, and as kind as summer."

In describing him in warrior-like terms then surely Tolkien did not exclude the possibility that he might have been a warrior.

[Bêthberry]

If Elrond's role in battle was to be a standard-bearer only, then how very apt and significant is Arwen's sewing of the banner for Aragorn.

They also serve, who only stand and wait. Milton.

[davem]

I'm not sure this 'argument' can ever be resolved. I do wonder if its significant, though, that the Mouth of Sauron claims he is 'a Herald & Ambassador & may not be assailed'.

It seems to me that he is attempting to make use of some kind of Middle earth equivalent of the Geneva Convention, & clearly expects Aragorn et al to be bound by that. If it is the case that heralds may not be assailed then it seems likely that they would not take a direct part in the fighting, or that kind of 'diplomatic immunity' would not have applied.....

[The Barrow-Wight]

I don't know if it would be wise to use anything the Mouth of Sauron said as support for an argument. He was an evil man working in the service of the king of liars, so his choice of titles should always be highly suspect at best. It would be probably be unwise to equate his position in any way with that of Elrond, especially since his claim of unassailability went with the ambassador part of his statement.

‘Where such laws hold,’ said Gandalf, ‘it is also the custom for ambassadors to use less insolence.

[davem]

Originally Posted by The Barrow-Wight

I don't know if it would be wise to use anything the Mouth of Sauron said as support for an argument. He was an evil man working in the service of the king of liars, so his choice of titles should always be highly suspect at best. It would be probably be unwise to equate his position in any way with that of Elrond, especially since his claim of unassailability went with the ambassador part of his statement.

I'll get me coat.....

[Eruanna]

As the esteemed Barrow Wight said and also, the perceived Diplomatic Immunity of the heralds only came into being much later (Tudor/Elizabethan and afterwards) when their positions became more or less those of petty officials who marshalled tournaments or 'talked up' their lord's prowess in the joust, rather than the battle messengers of earlier times.

However, Bethberry's notion of Elrond as herald and Arwen's banner making, is something that I had not considered before...One of the reasons why I love this place

[Garen LiLorian]

the perceived Diplomatic Immunity of the heralds only came into being much later (Tudor/Elizabethan and afterwards) when their positions became more or less those of petty officials who marshalled tournaments or 'talked up' their lord's prowess in the joust, rather than the battle messengers of earlier times.

Be that as it may, in Lotr it seems to be that the person of a herald is sacrosanct. (at least, while the fighting isn't actually going on)

...Aragorn stood above the great gates, heedless of the darts of his enemy. As he looked forth he saw the eastern sky grow pale. Then he raised his empty hand, palm outward in token of parley.
The Orcs yelled and jeered... Get down or we will shoot you from the wall,' they cried. 'This is no parley. You have nothing to say.'

However, once in the thick of battle, anything seems to go. Indeed, Theoden kills the Haradrim standard bearer, and it is this deed that he boasts of as he lays dying. So, to bring us back to where we started, for Elrond to be unarmed would be foolish, and for us to consider him a non-combatant as Gil-Galad's herald seems silly to me. Another 'those without swords can still die on them' moment, perhaps.

[Eruanna]

As you say Garen, back where we started. Where was Glorfindel? It is the wisdom of Gandalf that persuades Elrond to send Merry and Pippin along, instead of Glorfindel, after all.
Perhaps Tolkien thought that having a wise warrior leader such as Glorfindel as part of the fellowship would detract too much from Aragorn and his journey into kingship. There can be only one leader for the fellowship.
It would have satisfied our curiosity if Tolkien had been more explicit about Galadriel, Celeborn and Thranduil's actions in ridding Lorien and Mirkwood of the Orcs.
I choose to believe that Glorfindel was there with them, just as I choose to believe that Elladan and Elrohir sailed into the West after their sister died...but that thread has already been covered

[Garen LiLorian]

I choose to believe that Glorfindel was there with them

That'd make sense, and I had forgotten Formendacil's excellent point, that

he came to Gondor in the group that included the elves of Lothlorien, as well as the Elves of Rivendell.

This at least gives Glorfindel an alibi when all the war heroes sit around afterwards telling stories. I still think it is odd, however, that he alone of all Elves (mentioned, anyway) reincarnates with the express purpose of fighting Sauron, yet he is practically nowhere to be found in the great battles.

[The Saucepan Man]

From the History of Galadriel and Celeborn in Unfinished Tales:

When Sauron learned of the repentance and revolt of Celebrimbor his disguise fell and his wrath was revealed; and gathering a great force he moved over Calenardhon (Rohan) to the invasion of Eriador in the year 1695. When news of this reached Gil-Galad he sent out a force under Elrond Half-elven; but Elrond had far to go, and Sauron turned north and made at once for Eregion. The scouts and vanguard of Sauron's host were already approaching when Celeborn made a sortie and drove them back; but though he was able to join his force to that of Elrond they could not return to Eregion, for Sauron's host was far greater than theirs, great enough both to hold them off and closely to invest Eregion.

Then:

In black anger he turned back to battle; and bearing as a banner Celebrimbor's body hung on a pole, shot through with Orc-arrows, he turned upon the forces of Elrond. Elrond had gathered such few of the Elves of Eregion as had escaped, but he had no force to withstand the onset.

Later:

But his force was weakened by the necessity of leaving a strong detachment to contain Elrond and prevent him coming down on his rear.

It was during this campaign that Elrond, while surrounded by Sauron’s forces, established Rivendell as a refuge for the survivors of Sauron’s occupation of Eregion.

So Elrond was clearly a military commander during the Second Age. At some point thereafter, he renounced combat to concentrate on healing. The first reference to his healing powers that I am aware of was when he healed his wife following her abduction by Orcs (in TA 2509). That was well after the Last Alliance, so it is quite possible that Elrond took and active part in the campaign as a combatant. His designation as Gil-Galad’s herald would not be incompatible with this, in my view.

[Formendacil]

And what about Elrond in the First Age?

For the first 50-100 years of his life, Elrond lived in a society that was VERY dangerous for Eldar or Edain. And he wasn't even on the relatively safe Balar with Gil-galad and Cirdan, but rather he was with the mainland-bound Sons of Feanor.

Also, note that he and Elros were raised by Maglor. Maglor might have been the most pacifist of the Sons of Feanor, but do you honestly think that a three-times Kinslayer would allow his adopted sons to sit by idly while they fought for their very lives?

Also, in earlier versions, the son(s) of Earendil took part in the War of Wrath. As far as I know, this remained the case in the later conceptions.

Elrond might have been a pacifist come the War of the Last Alliance, although I would wait until after if I were to date his retirement, but it is plain that in earlier times he must have had to take up the sword.

[Mithalwen]

I am aware of the role of Quakers, and indeed that even today musicians are used as stretcher bearers, but I don't think there is evidence for burrahobbit to claim his opinion as incontravertible fact. It was not customary for elf women to fight either but they did when they had to. And regardless of being a Maiar, if Eonwe can be both herald and warrior so can Elrond.

Furthermore the sons of Elrond were both mighty warriors and skilled healers as is shown in LOTR when they aid Aragorn after the battle of the Pelennor FIelds - and they are more Elvish than their father.

[Voralphion]

I believe that one of the important tasks of a banner bearer was to protect the banner. If the banner was captured, it was considered a disgrace. Therefore Elrond as the banner bearer would have to have fought at the Last Alliance, both to protect the banner, and because he would have been a rather conspicuous target carrying the banner of the elven king.

[Lobelia]

While we're discussing the role of Elrond - and I agree that the banner-bearer/messenger,etc. would have had to be able to fight, even though he wasn't commanding fighters - in the Council of Elrond chapter, he also says that he tried to talk Isildur into throwing the Ring away (they showed this as a flashback in the film, rather than having him tell the Council, but he did say it). Don't tell me he was busy bandaging Isildur at the time. :-)