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#1 | |||||||
A Mere Boggart
Join Date: Mar 2004
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I have recently had the pleasure of reading the Osanwe-Kenta and it has had my head spinning with ideas, the first of which I shall attempt to start a discussion on here, as it might be of interest to all. While I appreciate that not everyone will have had the benefit of reading this piece by Tolkien, I think it will still be a topic others can join in on. For purposes of clarity, the thread already open discussing the work is here
There is also a current discussion on the Three Rings here In a nutshell, the Osanwe-Kenta concerns the issue of thought transference, which is a skill not only Elves posses, but also Valar and Maiar, and there is a possibility it is latent within other species/races. But I still recommend that you look at the existing review thread at least! It is very complex, but once you read the actual essay (available by mail order) your head will be full of new thoughts. One of my first thoughts was how this relates to the Rings of Power. We know about the powers of the One Ring and how the Ringbearer can be ‘seen’ when wearing it, and it is this thought which sparked me off on this line of thought. In the Osanwe-Kenta it says of Morgoth: Quote:
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He failed seemingly to entirely reach into the minds of Dwarves: Quote:
But he was entirely successful in reaching into the hearts and minds of men, as it says in The Sil of the enslavement of the Nazgul: Quote:
Sauron did not make the three Elven rings of power, but once they were created, he went on to create the Ruling Ring, which appears to have had some way of affecting the Three, even though it could not control them in the same way it could control the other rings. Quote:
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I wonder if anyone else agrees with what I've postulated here? What impressions did others who have read the Osanwe-Kenta get about the Rings of Power? And what do those who have not read it think of my idea?
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#2 | |
Cryptic Aura
Join Date: May 2002
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Ghost Prince of Cardolan
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Whoa, this might be up my alley. ^_^
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The Kinslayer
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Very interesting I must say.
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I think that the bigger question that needs to be asked is this: How could Sauron control minds of Elves that not even Morgoth could? How could Sauron control the minds of others if that is an impossibility? Only Eru can open a closed mind? I wonder if that means that Sauron could leave open the minds of other beings by deceiving them with their desires? Elves (ñoldor) = Valinor in ME. dwarves = riches. Men = power. From Ósanwe-kenta Quote:
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"Alas, poor Yorick! I knew him, Horatio; a fellow of infinite jest, of most excellent fancy." Last edited by Maédhros; 01-08-2005 at 09:35 AM. |
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#5 | |
A Mere Boggart
Join Date: Mar 2004
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#6 | |
The Kinslayer
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The question still remains as to how Sauron could best Melkor into finally achieving the fact that he could control the users of the Rings, even the 3 of the elves.
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#7 |
Ghost Prince of Cardolan
Join Date: Dec 2002
Location: commonplace city
Posts: 518
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Was it the innate ability of the elves, or their superb craftsmenship? These Noldor have a history of creating things that Vala / Maia covet.... and on a related note -
As for Sauron - being one of Aule's faction is heady stuff! This is the only way I could see Sauron bettering Morgoth in any aspect. It is interesting to contemplate how created things have such an impact on Ea. Ultimately, knowlage of use and identity of the 3 rings users could be sufficient intelligence for Sauron. Im sure he intended that thought awareness or thought control was the object in the creation of the Ruling ring, but perhaps (after the destruction of Eregion) user identity was enough. Concealing the rings seems logical in the fact that Sauron could/would have common present knowlage of the bearer's location. --"Ah, Galadriel just put her ring on - I know where her kingdom lies.... " It's interesting and somewhat ironic that - free peoples uniting aside - it seems to me, that only the elves (by an act of Grace?), in creating such powerfull rings, were ultimately the architects of the downfall of Sauron. Otherwise he would not have put so much of his power in the Ruling ring, and created the lynchpin of his own demise.?..? |
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#8 | ||
The Kinslayer
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But if you think for a bit, would have Sauron endured this long without making the Ruling Ring? I don't know for how long Sauron had "incarnated" himself with a body, but I think that it is very likely that without his ring, his bodily demise in both Númenor and with the Elendil/Erenion fight, that he would have been unable to reappear again in the Third Age. So, yes with the destruction of the Ring, Sauron was "destroyed" if you will but would Sauron had been able to reincarnate himself after his Númenor and Second Age downfall?
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#9 |
Ghost Prince of Cardolan
Join Date: Dec 2002
Location: commonplace city
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good points Maedros!
It does beg the question of : was it the ring, or Saurons innate ability as a Maia that enabled his reimbodiment? Im not sure what canon has to say about that. IMO your right most def after the last Alliance. But IMO, the post Numenor destruction w/o the ring Sauron would have regained the same form as he was post Last Alliance with the ring. If that makes sense at all... My point on the things was this: it seemed to me that the underlying theme here was how world shaking they were. Not a paradox but an enigma (for lack of a better word). They are both sub-creations within a sub-creation within...etc.... |
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Beloved Shadow
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#11 | ||||
The Kinslayer
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And if Sauron was able to control the minds of the wearers, how is it that Celebrimbor reacted fast and took off the ring/rings? Perhaps it is a process that takes time. Quote:
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From Morgoth's Ring: Myths Transformed Quote:
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#12 |
Ghost Prince of Cardolan
Join Date: Dec 2002
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Forgive me if this turns into a debate over semantics, but that reads as if Sauron did not need the ring to rehouse. Are you speculating that, after the Numenor incident, the ring was needed to keep his hroa in ME after the Last Alliance defeat?
My point was that w/o the ring, Sauron would have been able to rehouse after Numenor - but only as a spirit of malice, akin to as he was in LOTR. Thus a physical struggle at the Last Alliance would have been impossible. |
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#13 | ||
Beloved Shadow
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Andy Roddick can kick my butt in tennis. I'm on the court waiting for an opponent and Andy walks on. If I stay I'm going to get beat, so I run off the court and get in my car and drive home. He can most certainly beat me- I just never gave him the chance to engage me. The same goes for the rings. In the Sil it says- Quote:
How long would it have taken? Maybe not long at all. Maybe all Sauron had to do was turn his attention towards them.
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#14 | |||
The Kinslayer
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But the bigger question is: What is the Ring made of? Does the Ring has part of Sauron's "spirit" (power) in it? I don't think that I'm explaining myself correclty to you. I'm not sayin that the Ring was needed to keep his hröa in ME. When his hröa is destroyed it remains destroyed, Sauron needs to use more of his power to reclothe himself. As this process repeats himself, Saruon looses more of his innate powers, ex. Balrogs who once destroyed couldn't reclothe themselves. This is what I believe would have happened sooner to Sauron if he had not made the Ring: From Morgoth's Ring: Myths Transformed Quote:
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#15 | |
Ghost Prince of Cardolan
Join Date: Dec 2002
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OK
Suffice to say there is a limited amount of (shall we say) capital, when it comes to rehousing - esp for a Maia. Thanks Maedros for the text! I love to pose questions which compels one to insert HOME quotes. ![]() ![]() QUOTE]It is my personal opinion but I think that without the Ring, Sauron would not have been able to be renew again and would have been a no factor in the TA.[/QUOTE] You are speaking about post Numenor, right? Or are you asserting that the post Melian encounter took so much out of S, that it tapped his reserves for any future reimbodiements? Quote:
keep it up and thanks again! |
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#16 | ||||
The Kinslayer
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Melian is another matter altogether. Melian had been incarnated from a long time and she even had a child (Lúthien). I wonder if Melian travelled to Valinórë via a ship or if she returned to her true ëalar form. My guess is that she transformed into her ëalar form and returned to Valinórë even thought it is stated that it would have been more difficult for her to do that but you might argue that because Thingol was slained the link that she had with him now that it was gone allowed her to do that. I wonder if perhaps when Thingol was allowed release from the Halls of Mandos if Melian would have reincarnated herself in order to interact with Thingol. Quote:
From Morgoth's Ring: Myths Transformed Quote:
I wonder if perhaps this is the reason as to why Celebrimbor was aware of Sauron's intentions?
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"Alas, poor Yorick! I knew him, Horatio; a fellow of infinite jest, of most excellent fancy." Last edited by Maédhros; 01-08-2005 at 09:36 AM. |
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#17 | ||
Wight
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Michigan
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Unless I am mistaken the quote from the Sil posted earlier implied that it was not just Celebrimbor who was aware of him but all of the Elves that wore rings. I think that Sauron didn't realize that the link between the Rings would go both ways (although the One Ring was dominant) and so did not realize that the Elves would percieve him when he put on the Ring. About Sauron reclothing himself, remember that he was not incarnate until after the destruction of Numenore. The Ealar's power was lessened after their bodies were destroyed even if they are not incarnate, but far more so if they are. The first time Sauron's body was destroyed he was hurt only a little. The second time was much worse, just like Morgoth he had done horrible evil and he had dispersed much of his power (the Ring). Also there was the weakening of his power due to his body being destroyed. This resulted in his becoming incarnate. So when the Last Alliance came there was a different story, this time he was incarnate and so became nothing more than an impotent (or nearly so) spirit (there is no record, that I can recall, of any Maia, other than Sauron, who came back after being "killed" in incarnate form, save maybe Gandalf, but he seems to have been a special case also). However, the Ring is what saved him, it "anchored" him so that, slowly, he was able to rebuild a body. Just as his Ring was his savior so it became his bane, for when it was destroyed his anchor was lost and so was he.
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#18 |
Ghost Prince of Cardolan
Join Date: Dec 2002
Location: commonplace city
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Maedros thats funny - you need to give me your tips. I need a secret compartment under my desk a 'la George Castansa
![]() My mistake - I did mean Luthien. Reading the Ósanwe-kenta helps me to rectify the whole Huan issue in my mind. That now makes sense to me. Thinking about that now - spiders eagles et al as well. |
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The Kinslayer
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I have to strongly disagree with the level of incarnation of Melian and Sauron. Melian is definitely more strongly dependent on her hröa than Sauron. Why? Because she even had a child in that union. From Ósanwe-kenta Quote:
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From Akallabêth The Downfall of Númenor Quote:
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Can you imagine Sauron not being incarnate while in Númenórë. They would have freaked out at talking to a spirit I think. A bigger point is this. How can anyone know that Sauron wasn't incarnate the whole time that he was in ME? If Melkor his master decided to be one, it would be logical that he his lieutenant would follow his master too.
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"Alas, poor Yorick! I knew him, Horatio; a fellow of infinite jest, of most excellent fancy." Last edited by Maédhros; 01-08-2005 at 09:38 AM. |
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#20 |
Ghost Prince of Cardolan
Join Date: Dec 2002
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Wasnt the authors point that Morgoth, being a greater Vala, was able to do both - albeit lessening his physical stucture/strength as time went on? IMO Saurons only way to do this was in ring craftsmenship.
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#21 | ||||
A Mere Boggart
Join Date: Mar 2004
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I’m pleased to see so much discussion here, I wasn’t sure it would be a topic with great ‘appeal’, but obviously there are a fair few who have been lucky enough to have read Osanwe-kenta. And also the quotes from HoME have been useful to add another perspective.
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* sorry about the seemingly ‘wrong’ words, but I can’t find the umlauts on this version of Word.
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#22 | |||
Wight
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Michigan
Posts: 126
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If you would convince a man that he does wrong, do right. Men will believe what they see.~Henry David Thoreau |
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#23 | ||
Ghost Prince of Cardolan
Join Date: Dec 2002
Location: commonplace city
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Nethian/Maedros
I am following you ![]() Melian giving birth never dawned on me as having an effect on her hroa. Of course that would bind her. Dunno if its equivelent to S's ring. Interesting! Quote:
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Lalwende: your threads are great! keep it up |
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#24 | ||
Wight
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Michigan
Posts: 126
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If you would convince a man that he does wrong, do right. Men will believe what they see.~Henry David Thoreau |
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#25 | |||||
The Kinslayer
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I have explained this in another thread. The Ring puts the hröa and fëar against each other. While a mortal fëar after sometime would want to leave the world and it's hröa in time would decay, the ring makes the hröa endure more that it is meant to do, this puts great anguish against the being who has the Ring. From Morgoth's Ring: Myths Transformed Quote:
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#26 | |
Dead Serious
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In other words, perhaps to a certain extent, the Ring became Sauron's hröa after its creation? Not a full and complete hröa, obviously, but perhaps a PART of it, in a way, just as it became imbued with part of his power. Thus, although the destruction of his body (twice) weakened him greatly, he continued to survive, not only because much of his power remained intact elsewhere, but because it remained in a part of his "body" elsewhere? Thus, when Frodo destroyed the Ring, it not only cost Sauron his power, but also the last portion of his hröa. Also, another thought to do with that: the hröa is not just the physical body, but also, in a sort of complicated way that I can't readily find a quote to, includes the 'mind' and thoughts of the person. So, if the Ring is a part of Sauron's hröa, then it would follow that it has a part in his thoughts and mind, hence the "personification" of the Ring, its seeming consciousness and malevolent will. Perhaps I'm reading too much into an aberrant thought on my part, but it seems almost plausible...
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#27 | ||
The Kinslayer
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From the Letters of JRRT: 246 Quote:
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#28 | ||
Wight
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Michigan
Posts: 126
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This raises the question, shouldn't Gandalf and others be able to shut their minds to the temptation of the One Ring? Quote:
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#29 | |||||
A Mere Boggart
Join Date: Mar 2004
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Another hint at the 'purpose' is here: Quote:
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#30 | ||
Deadnight Chanter
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brief comment
Question of Unwill (how can it be overcome) I have thought about before, but came not to a definitive conclusion. I have a theory, though, which runs as follows:
Maybe, Unwill is not overcome in a strict sense - the breach is allowed for by the person him/herself. Cf: Quote:
And following another piece (Athrabeth Finrod ah Andreth), it should be concluded that following the Fall, no man is able not to fail. But the opening key may be deceit - the mind is not forced, but tricked (or, more appropriate here - seduced) to open up a breach. Besides, having in mind that all matter (of which hröar are built) contains taint of Melkor, and hröar are affecting fëar, it is to be assumed no living being (elves and men alike) has a perfect mind, able not to allow for a breach. Hence, even Gandalf (in incarnate form) fears to take the Ring) *** As for the Gift of Death and its withdrawal (commenting on human servants who keep leaving not useful), brief comment, dependent on the treatment former King of Angmar threatens Éowyn with: Quote:
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#31 | ||
A Mere Boggart
Join Date: Mar 2004
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#32 | |
Cryptic Aura
Join Date: May 2002
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Would not this suggest that Tolkien would not want readers to shy away from certain knowledge of the orcs' treatment of Celebrian? He intends readers to recognise evil when it is suggested, to educate them, as it were, in its more vile means? I'm referring, of course, to the thread "Celebrian's Misfortunes." Just a thought.
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#33 | |
Illustrious Ulair
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: In the home of lost causes, and forsaken beliefs, and unpopular names,and impossible loyalties
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I think Tolkien's position was that we should only 'study' evil to the point that we can recognise it - not that we should go into its nature & pratice in depth. Elrond warns that is is dangerous to study the arts of the Enemy. I suspect that Tolkien would say that knowing that the Orcs 'tormented' Celebrian to the point that she could no longer remain with her beloved husband & children & had to pass into the West is enough, & that to enquire any further into her fate is to risk being 'corrupted' by what one might find out. Its easy to get ideas & images into one's mind, but more difficult to get rid of them. Personally, the image of Celebrian being raped by orcs is not something I want to imagine - I don't even like writing those words. Whether that makes me overly sensitive I don't know. I think it is quite possible to be able to recognise evil without studying it in all its graphic detail. So, while I agree that Tolkien did 'intend readers to recognise evil when it is suggested' I can't agree that he intended 'to educate them, as it were, in its more vile means?'. I think his intention was the opposite. He was fullly aware that the practices of 'evil' were quite commonplace, even in our 'civilised' society, & that it wasn't at all necessary to describe them in detail. What was necessary was to make people aware that such things are evil, & inexcusable. In other words, he wanted us to be aware of what Evil is in its essence, not to educate us in its practice... |
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#34 | |
Cryptic Aura
Join Date: May 2002
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You have expressed much better than I did, davem the applicability I saw in Lalwendë's post:
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#35 | |
Ghost Prince of Cardolan
Join Date: Dec 2002
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meat and bonesss
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#36 | |
Dead Serious
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And to build on that, remember how Saruman fell: by delving too deeply into the lore of Sauron's power. Sauron's evil. To study evil too closely is to become tempted by evil, and the possibility of turning to evil becomes increasingly strong. Gandalf does not fall, while Saruman does, because he knew better than to study Sauron that deeply. (Okay, there were other reasons too, but this is a biggie.)
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#37 |
A Mere Boggart
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I've got to thinking again after reading the comments by davem, Bethberry and Formedacil on evil. Tolkein as a Catholic and Christian would have heard much on the 'nature' of evil by way of his religious beliefs, and one of those could well have been the line of thought that it is best not to go too deeply into the study of evil lest it corrupt the soul into evil itself. This is a common thought amongst many fundamentalists today, who ironically do not always approve of Tolkien!
But applying these comments to the Osanwe-kenta, I'm quite sure that Tolkien was making a point about being aware of and wary of evil; or perhaps suspicious is a better word? But alongside this, he could also have been making a philosophical point about those who allow too much knowledge of evil to eneter their heads. He could have been saying that evil can be manipulative, it can treat you as a 'friend', much in the same way as Melkor does to those he wishes to enslave, and that while we must be aware, we must also not go too far into these matters, in case we too become enslaved. So, aside from the Osanwe-kenta telling us much new information about Arda, does it also have a metaphorical message for us?
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#38 | |
Illustrious Ulair
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I don't know if this is ever so slightly off-topic, but reading the following passage from Osanwe Kenta:
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Was this aspect of Osanwe someting that Tolkien had had personal experience of? Did he gift the inhabitants of his creation something that he had known personally , & valued so highly? * lambe: 'tongue-movement', (way of) using the tongue'; in non-technical use, 'language'; 'a way of talking; dialect', applied to the separate languages of any people or region (Wl:394). In linguistic theory, a tengwesta (q.v.) employing phonetic signs; also 'the way of speaking', i.e. phonetics and phonology (WJ:39S). Cf. also WJ:416 n. 33; LAB- 'lick' (LR:367). |
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#39 | ||
Animated Skeleton
Join Date: Mar 2003
Location: Nulukkhizdīn
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The best example of sanwe (whether aided by rings or not) I can find within the legendarium is, oddly, in Many Partings. It's the convo between Galadriel, Celeborn, Elrond and Gandalf. Quote:
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Ishkhaqwi ai durugnul? Last edited by Petty Dwarf; 01-10-2005 at 05:55 PM. |
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#40 | ||||
The Kinslayer
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A lot can happen when you are off for the weekend.
HI my friend, I liked your post and I would like to enter into a little more detail regarding the Gorlim situation. From The Lays of Beleriand: The Lay of Leithian Recommenced Quote:
We know that torture alone was not sufficient for Gorlim so Sauron tricked him into the illusion that if he would betray Barahir and Co. he would have his love back. That he was after that point unable to offer Sauron resistance is I think because of the fear of Sauron being there. Remember that if Sauron did indeed could "see" into his mind, he wouldn't have needed to have Gorlim tell him, he could have retrieved the information himself. From Ósanw-kenta Quote:
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